Cubs that are available

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2005 12:12 AM CST in News

The Chicago Tribune's Dave van Dyck lists Kevin Mench as a player on the Cubs' "shopping list," and has this item on available Cubs players:

According to a well-informed source, these are the choices of names Hendry is giving such teams as the Marlins, Reds and Devil Rays, all of whom are seeking young, inexpensive players:

Sergio Mitre, who spent part of last season with the Cubs and has shown flashes of being very good.
Jerome Williams, obtained last season for LaTroy Hawkins and who also has shown signs of being good. He was 6-10 with a 4.26 ERA for the Giants and Cubs last season.
Todd Wellemeyer, who appeared mostly in relief with the Cubs last season but has been a starter in the minors.
Ricky Nolasco, a promising Double-A pitcher considered a good prospect.

Williams and Mitre are both guys who could step into the Ranger rotation right now and contribute. I'd like to see either, or both, involved in a Mench or Soriano to Chicago deal.

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Well...

I like Willaims and Mitre, but they aren't the kind of impact pitching prospects I'd want to see us get for Soriano or Mench, unless maybe they were packaged with someone else, like Corey Patterson (who I really think will rebound once he gets out of Chicago).

Though I'd way rather have either of them than Brett Tomko.

Don't know much about the other two, though I did note that BA ranked Nolasco the Cubs 7th ranked prospect in their Cubs tep ten prospects list a week or so ago.

Somebody's got to win the West in '06. Why not Texas???

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2005 1:00 AM CST reply actions

WTF?

I don't know much about the Cubs youngsters, and I did not catch any Cubs' games this past season, so I will defer to those with knowledge on these guys.

HOWEVER, what the heck is the big hoopla about Jerome Williams if he was 6-10 with a 4.26 ERA? Perhaps he has some upside, some grit, some luck, some something, but this is funny to me....and not in a funny way.

Some days you are the pidgeon and some days you are the statue. This decade, the Rangers are the statue, and this off-season, the statue is surrounded by pidgeons.

I just don't understand and wish I knew what everybody else does about this Williams dude and even Mitre.

PS: I came home from work tonight, HOPING that there would be some cool developments, rumors, or even activity. I get on here and see Tomko and some dudes that other teams seem awfully willing to give up. Pitching is NOT given up this easily.

You know the line "No matter how hot she is, there is some guy out there tired of her crap."

Are these guys available for similar reasons? Please make me feel a little better about even discussing this "stuff".

Thanks in advance!

I miss 1989. I miss 1995. Please make me miss another season in 2006.

by Chaim Witz on Dec 6, 2005 1:17 AM CST reply actions

I'm surprised everyone's ready to trade Mench

I can understand that Mench probably has the most value of any available Ranger (with Hank likely really not going anywhere), but I'd be a little disappointed if the Rangers didn't get a really solid return for him.

Mench is still young, cheap, and with a fairly nice track record in the majors, despite being sort of disappointing last year.

Trading him opens up a gaping hole in the outfield. With Giles gone, there isn't much beyond Rondell White-type players available in free agency. Manny is almost certainly not coming here, and beyond that I haven't heard of Texas being linked to any other outfielders in trades.

So Adam, what exactly are your thoughts on trading Mench? I haven't seen you explicitly say what you'd want to see in this subject.

by alon91 on Dec 6, 2005 1:35 AM CST reply actions

Because he's one of the few

He's one of the few Rangers that has value. In order to get a pitcher back in trade, you must offer something of value. It's either Mench, Tex, or Blalock, or MY to get a pitcher. Mench is a lot easier to replace than the other three.

by orton1227 on Dec 6, 2005 7:52 AM CST up reply actions

I'm starting to tend

more and more to the dark side of shopping anyone, including Teixeira, Young, Blalock, and Mench for prospects.

Basicly, I see no way to win through free agency, trading guys like Soriano don't net enough in return, and trading guys like Mench is somewhat of a zero sum game in that it opens a hole in what is a dreadful outfield with no apparent help in the minors.

So, I really don't see a path to a winning '06 ballclub, and that just leaves '07 and '08 until we see the exodus.

I probably wouldn't trade them this year, but, if at midseason, we are out of it as I suspect, I would quietly put the word out that they may be available.

by DJCahill on Dec 6, 2005 8:32 AM CST up reply actions

Why Everybody?

Why would you want to trade everybody? Are there not some players for whom you can not receive equal value? Especially when you consider their value per dollar spent? This of course would be Teixeira, and I would put Mench in the same category (but without doing my due dillegence in research). I do agree with the fact that most people expect the trades to be for impact players to win it all this year. Realistically, the Rangers need a few more years to prepare themselves. By then, Teixeira will be in the prime of his career, and players like Kinsler and Botts should be able to regularly produce at the big league level.

Please don't see my comments as saying Botts and Kinsler are the answer. The Rangers have several prospects for whom they have high hopes. In a few years, those who can be productive, will be productive. That will be the time to spend on players such as Morris and Byrd, which is too say the missing pieces.

DJ, you do make a good point about Young. As bad as he is defensively, and make no mistake, he is bad; Neyer says let him play as long as he continues to hit as he does. He is not one to make claims without sufficient proof to justify it. I would like to take a look at his stats and come up with my own opinion, but he may be worth trading, though certainly not this year (even at midseason).

by pfe1223 on Dec 6, 2005 9:25 AM CST up reply actions

I think people are losing it on this blog

Mench or Soriano for one of those second rate pitchers? No thank you. For some reason Adam has been all over Williams for the last year. This guy has not impressed me at all. And if he is 6-10 with the Cubs and Giants that probably means he will be 4-12 with the Rangers. And I think DJ has lost it. There is no reason to trade our top players (Tex, Blalock, etc.) for top prospects. If we trade any of those guys it should be for frontline starters.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 9:31 AM CST up reply actions

Huh?

"And if he is 6-10 with the Cubs and Giants that probably means he will be 4-12 with the Rangers."

Why?

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2005 9:44 AM CST up reply actions

Because

Second rate pitchers do not pitch well at our ballpark. I would be interested to see who Williams lost to last year. Given the fact that it is easier to pitch in the NL I would have to say if he made the transistion here he would get rocked. Vlad and company would have him out of the game 2/3 in.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

Excuse Me

2/3 of an inning into the game. In case you did not know what I meant by that.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 10:30 AM CST up reply actions

Second rate pitchers

Depends on what you define as a "second rate pitcher."

Jerome Williams has had an ERA+ of 105 and 100 the past two years. In other words, right about average. And that's average taking into account home park, and the difference between the A.L. and the N.L.

If you want to say he'll have an ERA of 6 moving to TBIA, then that's one thing. But I don't think it makes much sense to cite W/L records, and say his W/L record will drop if he came here. If anything, it should improve, because the Cubs and Giants weren't very good offensive teams last year.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2005 10:40 AM CST up reply actions

Ok

Well that is kind of where I am going with this one. Right about average does not justify trading away a solid outfielder. I will not give up Mench for a "right about average" pitcher in the NL.

Second-Rate: see Drese, Park, Astacio, the list will go on forever.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

Sorry

I do not know why it keeps shifting to the right.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

Mench

He's an average to a little below-average outfielder.

I'd definitely trade him for an average starting pitcher.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2005 10:51 AM CST up reply actions

Why

So we can watch Williams get shelled and then have an even bigger problem in outfield. No Thanks.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

The reason I would trade them

has nothing to do with their productivity. It has more to do with the odds of re-signing them down the road.

To clear up any misconception, I wouldn't shop them hard, nor would I shop them at all this offseason, but at midseason, if this team is out of it, and we are offered significant prospects for Teixeira or a Young, I think you have to consider it.

The fact that I would listen to offers for Teixeira and Young isn't a knock against them, its recognition that they would bring the most in trade.

by DJCahill on Dec 6, 2005 9:42 AM CST up reply actions

I understand why

But that would completely go against everything we have done for the last five years. We have been building this team around our young hitters. Now we have to go out and make a Big Time play for a Quality pitcher (through FA or Trades). Regardless of their value, if we were to trade Tex or Young I would want to see us do exactly what the Marlins are doing. Along with removing Hicks and Showalter.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 10:32 AM CST up reply actions

About those Marlins...

Everybody talks about how the Marlins were able to win the World Series in 2003 because of all the trades they made after the '97 title. Let's take a closer look at that:

November 11, 1997
Traded Moises Alou to the Houston Astros. Received a player to be named later, Manuel Barrios, and Oscar Henriquez. The Houston Astros sent Mark J. Johnson (December 16, 1997) to the Florida Marlins to complete the trade.

Any of those people help them in 2003? Didn't think so.

November 18, 1997
Traded Robb Nen to the San Francisco Giants. Received Joe Fontenot, Mike Pageler (minors), and Mike Villano (minors).
Traded Devon White to the Arizona Diamondbacks. Received Jesus Martinez (minors).

More of the same.

November 20, 1997
Traded Jeff Conine to the Kansas City Royals. Received Blaine Mull (minors).
Traded Ed Vosberg to the San Diego Padres. Received Chris Clark (minors).

Ditto.

December 15, 1997
Traded Kevin Brown to the San Diego Padres. Received Derrek Lee, Rafael Medina, and Steve Hoff (minors).

Derrek Lee, finally something of some redeeming value.

December 18, 1997
Traded Dennis Cook to the New York Mets. Received Fletcher Bates (minors) and Scott Comer(minors).

Next.

February 6, 1998
Traded Al Leiter and Ralph Milliard to the New York Mets. Received A.J. Burnett, Jesus Sanchez, and Robert Stratton (minors).

A.J. Burnett, which makes two players out of all those trades (it is important to note that Burnett only pitched 23 innings in 2003). Fastforward to the next season:

May 14, 1998
Traded Manuel Barrios, Bobby Bonilla, Jim Eisenreich, Charles Johnson, and Gary Sheffield to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received Mike Piazza and Todd Zeile.

Neither player lasted all that long as a Marlin.

May 22, 1998
Traded Mike Piazza to the New York Mets. Received Preston Wilson, Ed Yarnall, and Geoff Goetz (minors).

Yarnall was included in the Lowell deal,Wilson was later part of a deal that landed Hampton and Juan Pierre, and Hampton was later flipped for Tim Spooneybarger. All in all, this is a mark in the win column for the Marlins.

July 4, 1998
Traded Jay Powell and Scott Makarewicz (minors) to the Houston Astros. Received Ramon Castro.

Uninspiring.

July 31, 1998
Traded Todd Zeile to the Texas Rangers. Received Daniel DeYoung (minors) and Jose Santo (minors).
Traded Felix Heredia and Steve Hoff (minors) to the Chicago Cubs. Received Justin Speier, Kevin Orie, and Todd Noel (minors).

We all remember when Zeile graced Arlington with his presence.

December 14, 1998
Traded Edgar Renteria to the St. Louis Cardinals. Received Armando Almanza, Braden Looper, and Pablo Ozuna.

Looper pitched for Florida in 2003.

February 1, 1999
Traded Mark J. Johnson, Ed Yarnall, and Todd Noel (minors) to the New York Yankees. Received Mike Lowell.

As mentioned above, here is how the Marlins got Lowell.

June 15, 1999
Traded Craig Counsell to the Los Angeles Dodgers. Received a player to be named later. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Ryan Moskau (minors) (July 15, 1999) to the Florida Marlins to complete the trade.

Never heard of him.

July 8, 1999
Traded Matt Mantei to the Arizona Diamondbacks. Received a player to be named later, Vladimir Nunez, and Brad Penny. The Arizona Diamondbacks sent Abraham Nunez (December 13, 1999) to the Florida Marlins to complete the trade.

Okay, Brad Penny.

July 25, 1999
Traded Livan Hernandez to the San Francisco Giants. Received Jason Grilli and Nate Bump.

That's all?

So what is the verdict? Did the Marlins get a nice set of players from these trades? Yes, but I say they gave up more than they got in return. But isn't that how it works? Sure, prospects are not a gauranteed thing. However, my reasoning is as follows; over three years the Marlins got rid of an entire team (so to speak) which only supplied half of the team for 2003. A fifty percent return on investment does not sound to be a smart thing to do. I think baseball fans need to be more careful before praising the actions of the Marlins. Besides, they were absolutely awful one they divested themselves of all that talent, 1998 especially.

by pfe1223 on Dec 6, 2005 1:55 PM CST up reply actions

good summary

where did you get the info on all those trades? i occasionally look for websites with good transaction histories, but still don't know of any really good ones.

by alon91 on Dec 6, 2005 2:37 PM CST up reply actions

baseball-reference.com

great site

by pfe1223 on Dec 6, 2005 2:46 PM CST up reply actions

re:

Burnett, Penny, Lee, Lowell and Looper. Plus parts used to later get Juan Pierre. That's two All-Stars, a quality leadoff guy, two good starting pitchers and a closer. The trades also cut payroll enough to make the biggest move: signing Ivan Rodriguez. And while season following the '97 championship was atrocious, it's horribleness led to the second biggest move: being in position to draft Josh Beckett.

Seems like a pretty good return to me. Especially since most of the stars from the '97 team were acquired through free agency. Edgar Renteria, Charles Johnson, and Livan Hernandez were the only significant contributors originally signed by the organization. They were losing pieces they were only really renting to begin with.

by Alan Smithee on Dec 6, 2005 2:38 PM CST up reply actions

Well...

Burnett did nothing to help win the WS. The first round draft pick of the Blue Jays is protected, the second rounder goes to Baltimore in the deal, so Burnett is worth a third round draft choice. Sure, letting Burnett go saves money, but what is it being spent on?

Before anybody makes comments about "enough" payroll existing, you should really read "May the Best Team Win." Best book hands down on finances in baseball. Loria is a lying SOB, he cooks the books worse than Enron, and is now throwing a shit fit because the state is spending tax payer money on rebuilding from the several hurricanes over the last two years, as opposed to giving it to an already incredibly wealthy man. John Brattain at The Hard Ball Times is a jilted Expos fan you musters more hate towards that man for what he did in Montreal, and for what he is currently doing in Florida. The idea behind this rant is that Loria had enough money to make those signings without whoring the team off to the highest bidder.

Look at the past transactions, and you will see that the Marlins had, at one time, Johan Santana. Say what you will about Beckett, but that is a royal screwup when you leave him unprotected in the Rule 5 Draft. I'd rather my favorite team make smart decisions than give me, the fan, the proverbial finger. This is what seems to be a cyclical occurence in Miami.

Again I stand by my assertation that 50 percent ROI = poop.

by pfe1223 on Dec 6, 2005 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

Wait

My verdict is that they have won 2 World Championships in 11 years (as an expansion team). I would much rather have two rings and a couple of terrible years for thirty one years of mediocrity. I don't care what it takes to get the right people in Texas. There are only two untouchables (Young and Tex)in my mind. I am sick and tired of paying money for forty games a year and get nothing back in return.
And if we were to make trades most likely they would be for veterans and not prospects. That is a completely different ballgame than what the Marlins do.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 2:48 PM CST up reply actions

How would you feel if...

The Ranges got rid of everybody of any redeeming value? Would you still post on this site any but expletive laden tirades? I know I would have a hard time not doing that. People like us, who take the time to post on sites and look up obscure statistics, have a huge investment in this sport. I want the team to win, but I want to be treated with some respect. How is it that a team can possibly disinfranchise its fanbase, and then expect them to keep showing up? MLB has an obligation to the fans, after all, without us, Barry Bonds would be playing for some company softball team. We are intelligent people, and, as such, we see what is really going on. These sales are all about pocketing money. As a byproduct, the team gets a crap load of prospects. Throw enough of them on the field, and some are bound to be good. If this is the Rangers want to do business, then I quit.

by pfe1223 on Dec 6, 2005 3:08 PM CST up reply actions

You are Right

No because after 2003 they still tried to make their team better through FA and trades. But it did not work out. So now they start over. And in 2009 when they have another WS contender people will be basking in the joy of possibly a third championship in 15 years.
If that is what it takes to win a couple of WS or for that matter get to the playoffs than I am fine with that. Once again I would still not trade Young or Tex but everyone else is available.

by DIESCTBRS on Dec 6, 2005 3:19 PM CST up reply actions