Jays offer Wells huge contract

by smalls on Dec 13, 2006 8:49 AM CST

The actual figures aren't available yet, but it's apparently more valuable than Soriano's 8 year deal with the Cubs.

...to read the article yourself go to Prosportsdaily.com

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Comments

just 1 mil more valuable per year

seven year, $126MM

by Longhorn on Dec 13, 2006 8:54 AM CST reply actions

wow

he should take it.

by ab03 on Dec 13, 2006 8:56 AM CST reply actions

...we can pretty much count on Michael Young heading to Toronto when his contract expires. He and Wells have said that they WILL play together at some point, and if Wells is tied to the Blue Jays for another seven or eight years, the logical scenario would be that Young would bail on us to head to Canada...

Please, Mr. Wells, choose friendship and ties to Arlington over money -- you'll still get plenty of cash from us when you come here after '07...

We've got the bats, we've got the gloves, we've got the Manager, now let's go out and get some pitching!

by rangersfan34 on Dec 13, 2006 9:03 AM CST up reply actions

I really doubt...

...that Michael Young is going to make a decision on where to play based solely on whether Vernon Wells is playing there...

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2006 9:04 AM CST up reply actions

I certainly hope you're right, but...

...they've both been very open about their desire to play together, and as a Michael Young fan, it scares me to think that the Blue Jays might tie Wells up long term.

We've got the bats, we've got the gloves, we've got the Manager, now let's go out and get some pitching!

by rangersfan34 on Dec 13, 2006 9:10 AM CST up reply actions

not that much

I don't think

by ab03 on Dec 13, 2006 9:04 AM CST up reply actions

Anyone know the tax rate

in Toronto. Canada is nearly socialist so about half that will go to taxes.

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 9:09 AM CST reply actions

If you add it all up

...Canada's taxes are lower than ours.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 9:14 AM CST up reply actions

I tend to doubt this is true

but I don't have numbers on hand.

Do you have a link?

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 9:29 AM CST up reply actions

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard...

and by "silly" I mean "stupid."

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 9:47 AM CST up reply actions

It may not be true now

But it was true in 1998, so maybe I should've worded that differently. I took a survey course in Canadian politics in college and that's what we came up with.

You have to account for lots of things. Some US cities have income taxes. Lots of US states have income taxes. You add in user fees, sales taxes, and property taxes and you'd be surprised what we pay down here.

We've had a pretty significant federal income tax cut since then, so maybe it's not true anymore, but I bet it's closer than you think. Don't be so quick to dismiss someone or something as "stupid".

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 9:58 AM CST up reply actions

Survey says...

"stupid."

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:03 AM CST up reply actions

survey sez:

"Ben is insecure and feels compelled to insult others to fulfill his own hollow sense of worth".

Hey, most of us do sometimes. Right?

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:07 AM CST up reply actions

Tax Freedom Day...

Tax Freedom Day for the average Canadian falls on June 28. Tax Freedom Day for the average American falls on April 26. You do know that Canadians have local and provincial taxes, too, right?

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:13 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah

All ten of us that worked on the report were very well aware of Canada's local and provincial taxes. The point of the exercise was that it's genuinely difficult to get to the bottom of such a thing.

"Tax Freedom Day" is way too simplified. It's been years and I can't remember how we did it, but we determined the tax burden for the average citizen.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:20 AM CST up reply actions

Sounds really convincing...

I take it all back. You win. You figured out the tax burden but you can't remember how. Uh huh.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:25 AM CST up reply actions

As opposed to your argument

which is all substance...

by t ball on Dec 13, 2006 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

Hey...

at least I've offered data above and beyond "I did a school project for Social Studies class 10 years ago, but I can't remember the methodology or the results."

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:33 AM CST up reply actions

it was a long time ago

Almost ten years, so no, I don't remember the specifics.

I remember the basics of how we did it: we looked at tons and tons of data from tons of government agencies. We added it all up and compared it to demographic data to find out what the average Canadian and American pays to the government every year. It was a big project with a simple methodology.

There are LOTS of hidden taxes and fees. Just look at your phone bill, for example.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:34 AM CST up reply actions

Again...

very convincing. I'm sold. I'm moving to Canada.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:35 AM CST up reply actions

Great news

Happy to hear that.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

Just make sure and...

let us know if any of your other school projects have interesting social implications. For instance, maybe the macaroni art you made in kindergarten revolutionized abstract impressionism.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:39 AM CST up reply actions

i know little about this

but the wikipedia article you cited as reasons for "tax freedom day" being skewed is saying its skewed the other way - its overstating the tax burden of americans, so in essence americans pay less taxes than what tax freedom day projects.

by ab03 on Dec 13, 2006 10:43 AM CST up reply actions

it says that about Canada, too

"Tax Freedom Day" is interest group trash all the way around.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

But...

Dustin's social studies class found the real truth. Go Dustin!

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:45 AM CST up reply actions

We came a lot closer than they did

...because that's what we were trying to do. I didn't do this project when I was in eighth grade, by the way. There were people in this class who were much, much smarter than either of us.

Clearly, I never should've brought it up because I can't remember the details. I don't have a problem admitting that, but at the same time your "Tax Freedom Day" argument is equally lame because you don't know how they arrived at that number, either.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

I doubt...

there were people who were smarter than me.

BTW, when I was high school, a group I was in in astronomy class came up with an exact solution to Drake's equation.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:53 AM CST up reply actions

You still

working in a Pizza joint?

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

No...

Actually, I am a "registered representative" of a brokerage house, or, colloquially, a stock broker.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 10:58 AM CST up reply actions

Answering Phones?

Do you have your series 7?

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 11:01 AM CST up reply actions

Yes...

I have my 7 and 63.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

Well who knows

...but I can say for sure that there were none who were even close to your level in terms of humility.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 11:03 AM CST up reply actions

There is...

no point in being humble when you are as smart, attractive, and charming as I am.

by benmor78 on Dec 13, 2006 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

OK AROD

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 11:06 AM CST up reply actions

Wow

but did you see Uranus through a scope?

by jackbnimble on Dec 13, 2006 2:28 PM CST up reply actions

canada

much of the critique for canada stems from using median instead of average income, where average income is much lower and tax relief is higher for lower income families. it also talks about the exclusion of other forms of income,except the new tax freedom day would still be later than the old tax freedom day.

for vernon wells, this would not apply. canadians would be chomping at the bit.

incidentally, what interests would this interest group be interested in?

by ab03 on Dec 13, 2006 10:49 AM CST up reply actions

Ben

Answer your damn phone.

Or call me.

And quit picking fights with people.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2006 10:21 AM CST up reply actions

You offering him a job

licking your shoes clean before the Newberg Book event?

Kind of nice of you to double his annual paychecks that way.

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 10:23 AM CST up reply actions

The wikipedia gives a brief criticism of the Tax Freedom Day that I feel is pretty accurate in terms of what we're talking about here. I haven't looked into it but they say that Canada's numbers are particularly suspect.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 10:27 AM CST up reply actions

I know that

a few years ago I saw a self proclaimed Democrat economist on Bill "Douche Bag" O'Reilly's show and they agreed that our the top ten percent pay 50% of their income in taxes. Bill asked him what he thought we should be paying and he said 70%. I jaw hit the floor. I still don't think we pay more than the Canadians.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 13, 2006 5:24 PM CST up reply actions

There is no way

we pay more in taxes than Canadians. At least not at the top rate that Wells would be in. 46% in Canada vs. 35% in USA for those making more than $350K. Of course there are other taxes like sales tax, property, ISD, and capital gains but all in all Canadians are taxed at higher rates if they make money.

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 5:31 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

I think I basically said that.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 14, 2006 12:28 PM CST up reply actions

In 1997 or 1998

Canada's taxes were on the way down and ours were on the way up. Both trends have reversed these days.

Back then it was really close, at least for the middle class. Right now it's probably closer than most people would think.

by Dustin on Dec 14, 2006 1:23 PM CST up reply actions

I guess

my original point is that we are probably taxed more than people think. I never thought the US would ever take 50% of anybodies income. The closer we get to the 100% mark the more socialist we will be. I still think Canada probably is taxed more because of the cost of nationalized healthcare and government regulations. It is pure speculation on my part.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 14, 2006 4:28 PM CST up reply actions

All those taxes

and Bush still had to borrow close to $10,000 for every man woman and child to pay for his outrageous spending.

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 14, 2006 5:26 PM CST up reply actions

I know

right.

BTW The painting all Republicans as racist by pointing out the fringes of society is a tired routine.

"I'm a Republican" - Jackie Robinson

by kwellborn on Dec 14, 2006 10:56 PM CST up reply actions

The "redneck right"

is a big factor in the growth of the Republican party. All those John Rockers, Sharkys and others probably would have been Dems 30 years ago. Since the Reagan Democrats went over, you get full credit for them.

"I am a Republican" - John Rocker.

by DJCahill on Dec 15, 2006 5:08 AM CST up reply actions

Which currency?

Is the $126MM offer in US/CAN Dollars?

BTW...I'd sign and ask to be paid completely in Loonies.....

by Rusty on Dec 13, 2006 9:18 AM CST up reply actions

I believe

that all Baseball contracts, even Canadian ones, are structured in American dollars. I think its a MLBPA contractual thing.

At least that was true a few years ago, I doubt they changed that.

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 9:53 AM CST up reply actions

Interesting...

I didn't know that. So that would make the offer "worth" even more.

by Rusty on Dec 13, 2006 10:15 AM CST up reply actions

Wow, It was just a question.

I had my CPA look it up for me and as of 2006 the rates are:
Ontario including provincial tax rate 46.23%
Texas (no state or city income tax) 35%

Now that is not the bottom line as you can pay a good CPA to play with those numbers but that is where you start the CPA manipulation which is about equal in both countries.

The point of the question is the value of the $127M contract is 11.23% or $14,262,100 less valuable in Canada than in texas.

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

Don't forget property taxes in Texas.

Those add up pretty quickly, especially in the places pro athletes like to live.

by Athos on Dec 13, 2006 11:10 AM CST up reply actions

You know I have to pay my CPA by the hour

but again he says the Average property tax rate in toronto is .146% and in dallas County is .213% . Another difference is that cars are part of the canadian property taxes and are not included in texas. Any way the difference in proprty taxes is minute. Its like $85K per $10M

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 11:26 AM CST up reply actions

healthcare

This may not matter as much to the very wealthy (especially athletes), but a large part of Canadians taxes go toward healthcare. Even if their taxes are higher they're receiving a substantial benefit. When you include what private healthcare costs Americans and their employers, things may even out. Similarly, higher education is much, much less expensive there.

So this tax debate is a little stupid by itself. You have to look at the value of services the government provides to get an accurate picture of what's really going on.

by debaser on Dec 13, 2006 1:37 PM CST up reply actions

However

there is limited value to that healthcare by a major league ballplayer. There Health care and their pension gives them the best health care in the world.

So, in terms of talking about MLB players, thats a lot of money for nothing.

Iraq "could be considered a Civil War" - Colin Powell.

by DJCahill on Dec 13, 2006 1:44 PM CST up reply actions

You're right

Mine was more of a response to the debate going on above this.

Ballplayers' healthcare is pretty much taken care of. And probably not many of them paid for college if they went.

by debaser on Dec 13, 2006 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

regarding your closing comment

"You have to look at the value of services the government provides to get an accurate picture of what's really going on. "

No I don't. I live in Texas and believe I can spend my money better than the government can.
I have never met someone from the government (other than the military) that actually helped me.

Not to mention I was talking about the amount of money Wells would see in his bank on the same contract based in Texas vs. Toronto. Somewhere around 9-11% given the various property taxes discussed so far. Translates to about $12.7M. With that type of money I think he can afford good health care and educate his kids at a fine private school and still have a few bucks left over.

by Bigfan16 on Dec 13, 2006 5:21 PM CST up reply actions

i'd estimate

about half that.

by SteveP on Dec 13, 2006 5:29 PM CST up reply actions

opinion

...doesn't matter. If the Canadian government is providing a service, then it has value whether or not you agree with them providing it. Even if it doesn't benefit Wells directly, it will presumably benefit him to live in a healthy, educated society. Similarly, you benefit from compulsory primary and secondary education and state subsidized universities, even if you went to private schools all the way.

In many countries, health and higher education are considered public goods and they are funded as such. Their taxes are higher but both systems are universal. Our systems are pretty universal, too, but definitely not 100 percent. I haven't met very many stupid Canadians or Europeans, so it's hard for me to say they're any worse off. But that's beside the point.

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 5:36 PM CST up reply actions

x

"I haven't met very many stupid Canadians"

Can I introduce you to Mr. Michael Vanderjagt?

by jtts on Dec 13, 2006 5:49 PM CST up reply actions

Dustin

loves him some Canada.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 14, 2006 12:20 PM CST up reply actions

It's okay

by Dustin on Dec 14, 2006 1:24 PM CST up reply actions

I thought it's more like

2-3% around Dallas.

by SteveP on Dec 13, 2006 1:47 PM CST up reply actions

now i remember

the county rate is only part of the story. you have the ISD rate and the city rate as well...

here are the combined property tax rates for dallas area:

http://www.davedowns.com/propertytaxes.htm

by SteveP on Dec 13, 2006 2:03 PM CST up reply actions

Salary gets apportioned

according to "service days", which are from the time they report for spring training to the end of the season. I think Canada withholds basically based on 45% Canadian/55% US. Canadian taxes have come down quite a bit, but so have ours...so they're still higher. Weird thing - Canada only taxes signing bonuses at 15%....

by SteveP on Dec 13, 2006 1:03 PM CST up reply actions

Way too much for a career .828 OPS.

by Athos on Dec 13, 2006 9:51 AM CST reply actions

No.

Not for a CF with his skills.

by Longhorn on Dec 13, 2006 9:55 AM CST up reply actions

Right.

Then again, it's never too much when you're spending somebody else's money.

by Athos on Dec 13, 2006 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

Just a rumor

from an unidentified source. I saw this yesterday in a story on Yahoo, didn't think it was serious enough to really discuss yet. The quote was two paragraphs in part of an overall story about the Jays' dilemma. quote:

According to one baseball source, Ricciardi has floated to Wells a proposal of seven years and $126 million, the average annual value of which would exceed Soriano's contract with the Chicago Cubs (eight years, $136 million) by $1 million.

Ricciardi would not comment and Wells' agent, Greg Genske, would only say, "We have yet to have meaningful discussions," about a contract extension.

by t ball on Dec 13, 2006 10:28 AM CST reply actions

We have

Torii Hunter locked up like Fort Knox anyway, let Wells go.

by TexGoesYard on Dec 13, 2006 11:02 AM CST reply actions

Neither

is my guess. I've a hunch that JD will come with a different solution between now and then, via a trade for a vet or prospect.

by t ball on Dec 13, 2006 11:15 AM CST up reply actions

if

wells wants to sign and play in toronto, which I dont believe he would want to do if he has a house in texas, let him. But i say if he plays it out a year thinking I wanna play for texas then i dont think he will be dissapointed losing about 50-60 million dollars he could have had if he signed with the jays. LOL . cause honsetly with our payroll where it is now, theres no way hicks puts it over 100 Mil. I cant see that happening.

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 3:10 PM CST reply actions

Penalty Box

no real figures and link doesn't work.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 13, 2006 5:18 PM CST reply actions

how

do you figure. All im saying is if wells signs in tex its gonna be alot cheaper then his deal from toronto. But then again are you even talking to me?

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 5:37 PM CST up reply actions

penalty box

I DONT THINK SO!!! And i wish everyone could stop writing that crap cause its gay...SUPER GAY!

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 5:38 PM CST up reply actions

Calling something, anything

gay...SUPER GAY is gay.

by t ball on Dec 13, 2006 6:04 PM CST up reply actions

Hmm

if I was talking to you I would have clicked on the "reply" link under you post. Sense I did not I was talking to Small, who started this thread.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 14, 2006 12:31 PM CST up reply actions

replace "sense" with

since.

"Stubbornness is usually considered a negative, but I think that trait has been a positive for me." ~ Cal Ripken Jr

by kwellborn on Dec 14, 2006 4:30 PM CST up reply actions

sorry...

Im from NY and apparently were all gay. Isnt that right t bag...i mean t ball.

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 6:13 PM CST reply actions

You know what else is gay?

Multiple exclamation points!!!

pissing on punctuation

Misspelling "dissapointment."

Calling t-ball "t-bag" (wittiness)

Replying to yourself...

Gaylord...

"The Indians deserved it." LSB's resident humanitarian and motivational speaker, Sharky

by Brian Thomas on Dec 13, 2006 6:24 PM CST up reply actions

yeah but

i spelled dissapointed, not dissapointment

and yes id rather call him t bag

and when did i reply to myself

and im not the best at pissing on punctuation, but then again, why would i waste my time pissing on it.

and no im not gay

but you're right about the exclamation points, ill do my best to keep it to one, and when i get excited ill just use two. would that make your'e day?

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 7:42 PM CST up reply actions

Is English your'e first language?

"The Indians deserved it." LSB's resident humanitarian and motivational speaker, Sharky

by Brian Thomas on Dec 13, 2006 7:54 PM CST up reply actions

Because, for the love of God, I hope not

"The Indians deserved it." LSB's resident humanitarian and motivational speaker, Sharky

by Brian Thomas on Dec 13, 2006 7:55 PM CST up reply actions

sorry,

didn't know you'd be that gay to check my spelling and grammer. I'll try my hardest next time to spell and punctuate the proper way, just for you MR. Brian Thomas. YA FAG

by NYTXFAN on Dec 13, 2006 8:09 PM CST up reply actions

Absolutely

I'm a superduperuber gay "grammer" checker.

Please consider me duly notified as to my fagdom.

Yours truly,

Da Fag!!!!

Penalty Box? DONT THINK SO!!!!!!! And i wish everyone could stop writing that crap cause its gay...SUPER GAY!!!! NYTXfan!!!

by Brian Thomas on Dec 13, 2006 8:24 PM CST up reply actions

dammit

Do we really need the bigotry?

by Dustin on Dec 13, 2006 9:04 PM CST up reply actions

Apparently

it's all he's got.

by t ball on Dec 13, 2006 10:34 PM CST up reply actions

worth mentioning

I hate to bring up the hated term "market value" but it seems like the issues of taxes aren't as important as Wells getting better money than players he is perceived to be better than (Soriano). So whether or not it is cheaper for him to live here or how much of the money he gets will actually be his instead of the government's is not as relevant as how much he signs his contract for in relation to other players being offered contracts this year and the next.

He thinks he deserves market value for the skills he provides and that is as much about his ego or that of his agent's as about the actual money. 15 mil versus 17 mil, what is the difference really between those two in how he can provide for his family and buy all the toys he wants? Its much more about making more than Soriano or Lee or as much as AROD or whoever. The tax question which no one can tell for sure isn't that pertinent. So lets talk baseball.

BTW, I can't believe someone actually called their accountant about this. Please let spring training get here soon.

Young/Wells- 2008

by jrams33 on Dec 13, 2006 6:52 PM CST reply actions