JD and upgrading CF

by tklawless on Nov 28, 2007 6:03 PM CST Comment 63 comments

By all accounts JD is still set on doing something about CF....what are the pros/cons on the available options?

Rowand? Looking for at least 5/$75M, that's the biggest negative.....
AJones? Down year...weight issues...could he be had for 4/$60M?....
Cameron? What would he cost? 25 game suspension starting '08 season.....
Crisp? Boston's crazy 3 prospect asking price...3 years for $18.5M (buyout of $500K in 2010)....
Patterson? Maybe 2 years $7-8M...is he really that far behind Crisp?....

Lastly, a trade for young guy's (Mets/DBacks?).

What's realistic? Will we still need another bat?

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Sign Fukudome

And trade for one of the young guys still in the minors. Give Byrd, Murphy, Cruz, Boggs a chance in CF and the other COF spot this year.

"2008 should be about rebuilding, 2009 about taking a step forward. 2010 is the target year." -AJM

by dstar442005 on Nov 28, 2007 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm really starting to like the idea

of Cameron in Center and Fukudome in Right. Cameron only if we can't pry away DeJesus from KC.

Merill Hodge = Skip Bayless < Mark May...yeah, that's saying something.

by Longhorn on Nov 28, 2007 5:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

then

what do you do with Byrd, Murphy, Cruz, Boggs??

"2008 should be about rebuilding, 2009 about taking a step forward. 2010 is the target year." -AJM

by dstar442005 on Nov 28, 2007 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Byrd and Murphy

They can platoon in LF.

Cruz can be the backup OF.

Cat plays 1B against righties.

Boggs starts the season in Frisco or Oklahoma.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2007 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

so

Byrd and Murphy both play during Cameron's suspension and they are both not great so surely one of them plays themself out of a job. Now it all makes sense. Sign me up.

"2008 should be about rebuilding, 2009 about taking a step forward. 2010 is the target year." -AJM

by dstar442005 on Nov 28, 2007 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Byrd???

Hell NO...

Please get over your Marlon Byrd infatuation

I am living off the government tit! Sucking it dry!

by LtDan on Nov 28, 2007 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Marlon Byrd infatuation?

Suggesting he can platoon with David Murphy is an infatuation?

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2007 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Come on AJM...

admit it, you love you some Byrdman. You probably got up and did "the Bird" whenever he came up to bat.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 28, 2007 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yep

"2008 should be about rebuilding, 2009 about taking a step forward. 2010 is the target year." -AJM

by dstar442005 on Nov 28, 2007 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

serioulsy doubt Adam would do the bird

However, I've seen it a couple of times when I went to a some games last year. When I didn't deciede to burn some of season tickets in the fireplace out of disgust. I did see this on youtube. Rather stupid but you can see a few idiots doing the bird when Marlon Byrd comes to the plate... yawn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xuHcNcP2jw

I am living off the government tit! Sucking it dry!

by LtDan on Nov 28, 2007 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Houston, we have a problem

I mean LSB we have a problem with the outfield.

I don't think there's any doubt we HAVE A PROBLEM in the outfield?

I am living off the government tit! Sucking it dry!

by LtDan on Nov 28, 2007 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wilkerson

Just think of him playing left field every time you want to disregard Marlon Byrd. Hey, Marlon Byrd wasn't one of the reasons the Rangers were terrible last year. Platooning him with Murphy in LF is not that bad an idea. It could always be worse, Wilkerson worse.

by jman55 on Nov 28, 2007 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Byrd v. Wilkerson

Byrd's OPS in 2007: 814
Wilkerson's OPS in 2007: 786

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2007 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think he meant defensively

but aren't those significantly different OPS's?

by ab03 on Nov 28, 2007 11:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's the difference

between 37th and 47th in the AL... in other words, not that big a difference.

by a bebop a rebop on Nov 28, 2007 11:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Byrd does nothing for me. He had a hot streak right when he got here, then took a huge dump on the rest of the season. He doesn't hit enough for a corner, and doesn't run well enough to play center. 4th OF at best.

Boggs should be in OKC this year, with a September callup possible if he keeps hitting like he did last year in Frisco.

Cruz is an enigma. He has the most talent of anyone in our current OF, but will he ever put it together? My gut says no. But I would mind him platooning with Cat in LF. At worst he'd be a defensive beast out there when he started against lefties.

Murphy is a 4th OF to me. I wouldn't mind giving him a shot to prove he could possibly be more, but he's not a guy I would go out of way to give a shot to.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly, dirk

Byrd does nothing for me either

I am living off the government tit! Sucking it dry!

by LtDan on Nov 28, 2007 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cruz...

..can be sent out of town. He wasn't the slightest bit impressive last year. He would have been gone before Victor Diaz, IMO.

by bflood36 on Nov 28, 2007 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by Randy Richardson on Nov 28, 2007 6:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

in general

i don't think any of the OF's are worth a second thought if we get in people from the outside. I would just prefer that the people we bring in are not old players who are definitely on the downslope of their careers

by ab03 on Nov 28, 2007 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Put me down for that as well...

3/30 for Fuku and 2/15 for Cameron (unless we can get Crisp or DeJesus for cheap)

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 28, 2007 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

http://www.lonestarball.com/comments/2007/8/10/191937/776/15#15

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 28, 2007 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

word

you convinced me on Cameron, KoFu i've always wanted...

Merill Hodge = Skip Bayless < Mark May...yeah, that's saying something.

by Longhorn on Nov 28, 2007 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Give Boggs a 25 game audition while Cameron serves his suspension.

However, does Cameron count against the 25 man roster while suspended?

by RangerMad on Nov 28, 2007 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cameron

Unless I'm horribly mistaken, Cameron would be placed on the restricted list come Opening Day, which would mean he would not count against the 25-man or 40-man roster limits until after he's served his 25-game suspension.

Baseball Time in Arlington

by jamcadbury on Nov 28, 2007 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Play nobody in centerfield

and see what happens.

Why can't we be friends?

by Agreen07 on Nov 28, 2007 5:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Play with 4 OFers...

and just MY up the middle...we all know he has the range for that!

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 28, 2007 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Another Bat

If you get somebody like Cameron, I don't think that the Rangers should worry about getting another bat. Many here might disagree with that, but at some point you have to trust your scouting and stat guys. In theory, you only draft, trade for, and promote players who you think will produce at the major league level. That being said, the Rangers need to plan on the Botts and Saltalamacchia progressing. So the Rangers don't need to acquire a lot of offense, they just need to be patient. Still, you need to keep in mind who Botts and Saltalamacchia really are - young players who will struggle from to time. So at least one bat would be useful. Cameron should add some pop to the lineup, especially since he is in a hitter's park.

Now if you were to get Crisp, the lineup would not be all that threatening. Regardless, I would be fine with just getting Crisp. I really like his glove, and am willing to overlook his bat. Am I overvaluing Crisp's glove? Probably.

by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 28, 2007 5:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If you are willing to give up Hurley for Crisp

I think you are overvaluing his glove.

Why can't we be friends?

by Agreen07 on Nov 28, 2007 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp

Well, I think the current demands by Boston are outrageous. By "overvaluing" I mean that I will overlook his bat (on an already weak offensive team) just because he plays an outstanding defense.

by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 28, 2007 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm beginning to look at Andruw......

a little willing to forgive last season...shoulder and elbow should be healed...maybe a discounted contract, he's he best of the bunch, by far, in even an average year...he's still above avg. defensively...bat will play in a corner spot late in contract.

Since Boston has gone crazy about Crisp, I compared him to Corey Patterson and there ain't much difference (other than a little lower OBP). No pospects lost & less $$$ as a stopgap.

by tklawless on Nov 28, 2007 6:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Patterson is awful. Just awful.

"Red Sox = Evil Empire 2.0" -MR

by RangerMoto on Nov 28, 2007 6:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yes

I have a habit of making fun of teams that sign players like him. I would hate for that to be Texas.

by JBImaknee on Nov 28, 2007 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

[Dirk clenches fists, mutters something about MDB]

Brett Gardner broke my heart...

by Brian Thomas on Nov 28, 2007 7:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

well done

"Red Sox = Evil Empire 2.0" -MR

by RangerMoto on Nov 28, 2007 7:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

yah, pretty much.

I don't see the difference between him and Crisp.

Patterson was really good defensively in the past, though the stats I've seen are split on whether he was good in '07.

He doesn't hit much, but he's been nearly identical to Crisp the last two years.

I like Crisp better in the abstract (I think he's got more realistic upside at the plate), but since Patterson costs us only money, I don't see why everyone hates on him but has nothing but love for Covelli.

The only reason I've cooled on Patterson is that I read somewhere he apparently wants a three year deal worth 24mil+. I thought he'd be more of a bargain than that.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson

Man, I know that you've been backing Patterson for a long time. I'd just like to see some statistical proof that he isn't AWFUL. He's played five full seasons and hasn't been a league average hitter in any of them. And his RF9 was below average in four of the five. His highest OBP in a full season is .320.

Crisp has played three full seasons. He was an above league average hitter in two of them. By some statistical measures he was considered the best centerfielder in the league last year. Crisp is much better.

I don't see why David Murphy wouldn't be just as good a bet to play centerfield as Patterson. I can't find any reason there would be to sign him at all. We are chock full of 4th outfielders.

by badradiorules on Nov 28, 2007 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+4

by miles on Nov 28, 2007 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp

He's played 5 full seasons (I count a season with 400+ ab's as a full season), and has been above average in two of them... though even then it wasn't much above average (.790 ops in '04, .810 ops in '05, both as primarily a LF).

And he wasn't good with the bat either of the last two years as a CF (.702, .712).

As I said below with Patterson, I've seen some metrics which called him a pretty darn good CF in '06, though he seems to have declined in '07 for some reason. I don't trust defensive stats much, but I do think there's some value in them. Mainly he just passes my eye test. Every time I've seen him I liked the way he went after balls, and he seemed to have a pretty darn good arm for a speedy guy.

Basically it comes down to this: I think Crisp is better than Patterson defensively, but I don't think the gulf is as wide as some believe it to be. I think they're about the same as hitters... passable. But the main difference to me is that Crisp is going to cost you quite a bit in trade, and Patterson just costs money. (The only reason I've backed off Patterson is that I thought he'd be a cheap bargain sign... something like 2yrs/10mil, and that's apparently not the case at all.)

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At this point I'm leaning towards neither...

Crisp- anything over Laird and a B- prospect say no.

Patterson- anything over 2/10 mil say no. ( 3/24 mil is insane...we may be able to get Fuku for 6 mil more!)

The price better come down significantly on these guys or I just don't see it working in Arlington. I say go after Fuku hard and if they can find a way to sign him. I would rather see a Murphy/Byrd platoon over the current asking price for these 2 players if Fuku is in RF.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 28, 2007 9:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp

Semantics, but I consider 65% of games played to be closer to a half season than a full season. To be fair with Crisp, both seasons in Boston he battled injuries and the pressure of following an organizational icon.

Every defensive stat I've seen of Patterson says that he was good in 2006 and really bad in every other season. I'm not big on eye tests, I like numbers and the numbers that I've seen say that he's not very good. If you have numbers from any year other than 06, I'd love to see them.

With the unreliablity of defensive stats, I can see how you can say that Crisp is only a little better defensively, but to say they are the same hitter? Come on. There's a lot of reason to believe that he will return to the form that he showed in Cleveland, which was well above average for a centerfielder (albeit about average for a left fielder which is where he played then). Patterson in 3100 at bats has a sub .300 OBP. OUCH. We need that guy?

I hear you, if Crisp really costs three prospects (which he won't) then move on to someone else....not named Corey Patterson. In a fairly large sample size, Patterson's career RF9 in CF is 2.37. By contrast, Marlon Byrd's in 2.41. Patterson's career OPS+ 83. Byrd's 94. I just don't get why we need another below average player in the outfield, when we have plenty of those. If all else fails a Murphy/Byrd platoon, as bad as that is, is clearly as good as Patterson.

And whatever GM gives Patterson more than 2/$10 million should be fired on the spot.

by badradiorules on Nov 28, 2007 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see where you're coming from

And, honestly, all the vitriol towards Patterson has caused me to rethink my position a bit. I advocated him based on belief that he was an above average defender who was still young enough that maybe he'd figure out how to use his ridiculous tools to actually hit a little bit.

If he's not a good defender though, then you're right... I want nothing to do with him.

One thing I want to mention about Crisp. I've read somewhere (wish I could find a link) that in order to help his defense in CF he pulled a Michael Young and lost weight in an effort to increase his range. And apparently it worked. I was impressed with what I saw of him in center during the playoffs, and all the defensive metrics I've seen say he was very good in '07.

But could it be that (like good old Franchise Face) all that weight he lost caused his dip in batting prowess? If so, then I don't know how likely it is that he could suddenly regain his Cleveland form from back when he was a LF.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 10:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't disagree

with that. I'm not completely sold on Crisp as any sort of savior. The idea of having an elite defender in cf is intriguing, but I don't really want to sell the farm (pun not intended) for someone with so many questions.

I wouldn't mind acquiring a guy with Patterson's weak offensive stature as long as he can really handle cf well.

by badradiorules on Nov 28, 2007 10:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is MDB?

by hightowersmith on Nov 28, 2007 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oh no

Please, don't get them started.

But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Nov 28, 2007 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Awww, why not?

I would think watching me run cognitive circles around old man Thomas would make for great entertainment.

Me: "I just can't take any movie seriously when they completely ignore the rules of the sport they're supposed to be playing."

Brian Thomas: "Who cares if the whole movie was a ham-handed and hackneyed attempt to pull at my heartstrings, or that all of the characters were one dimensional cliches? When Hilary Swank was dying they played violin music! That means it was dramatic! VIOLIN MUSIC MEANS IT'S DRAMATIC!!!"

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And...

The Huntress (pretend this is in italics): Now TRANSFORMERS: THE MOVIE, that's a film baby. It complete me.

Brian (pretend-italicization): That explains alot.

Brett Gardner broke my heart...

by Brian Thomas on Nov 29, 2007 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thoughts on Coco

A. The Red Sox almost certainly must trade him. Their 4th OFer needs to be a RH platoon with Drew. (Remember how they drove Wily Mo Pena's value so low that they could barely give him away last year).

B. By most accounts, there are two serious suitors for Crisp - the Twins and Rangers, if the Twins decide to go in a different direction, it could quickly lower Boston's asking price.

C. Crisp and Patterson are not very comparable. Patterson has a career .298 OBP. Crisp, while not blowing anyone away with his career OBP of .328, it is higher than some guy who just signed a 5yr/90mil contract. Plus, Patterson is poor defensively, while Crisp is considered one of the best in the game.

D. I see Crisp as great defensively and a solid #9 hitter.

E. If it takes more than Laird and a marginal prospect, then forget about it.

by Randy Richardson on Nov 28, 2007 6:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

On B

It sort of seems like the Twins already did go a different way, getting Pridie from Tampa.

He's not a shoe-in, but he's at least ML depth in center.

by hightowersmith on Nov 28, 2007 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson versus Crisp defensively

take a look at this.

It's a defensive metric from the 2006 season.

Patterson is the best in the AL at 20 runs saved.

(Crisp is last at -13 runs saved, but it was his first season playing CF, and pretty much evrything I've seen says he made huge strides defensively between '06 and '07.)

FWIW, the stats I've seen from '07 are split on whether or not Patterson was any good.

I'm skeptical about defensive stats in general, but I have a hard time believing Corey Patterson is a "poor" defender in center.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

It's wild fluctuations such as those that you see this year with Patterson that make me very skeptical about many defensive metrics.

But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Nov 28, 2007 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson's D

I know defensive metrics are what they are. But take range factor, as one example: since 2002, when Patterson became a full time CFer, he has been well below league average, with the exception of 2006. Seems 2006 was more the exception than the rule.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/patteco01.shtml

by Randy Richardson on Nov 28, 2007 8:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yah

I really don't know what to think of Patterson's D.

If he's an above average defender, I think he could be a good value signing.

If he's as bad as some of y'all seem to think he is, then I'd want nothing to do with him.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 28, 2007 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp

"a solid #9 hitter"

That's a funny way of phrasing it ...

T.R. -- enough is enough.

by Chase Irwin on Nov 28, 2007 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I say we inquire about Pie

Remember that alleged deal we kept hearing about in midseason? Check its viability. I could see Pie being a Lofton-type at the next level.

Hop on the bandwagon while It's still fashionable: Rickey Henderson for Centerfield in '08!

by BudLight on Nov 28, 2007 7:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think that option has passed

As good as Geovany Soto did after the trade deadline I doubt they'd have any interest in Laird now, even if the Rangers did throw in a couple of good prospects with him.

by TRanger on Nov 28, 2007 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Defensive Fielding Metrics

While they're definitely not on the same level as OPS, they aren't absolutely worthless like some imply.... Well at least some aren't.

Anything related to Zone Rating (ZR) is typically a mediocre-decent measure of defense because it tends to quantify, somewhat objectively, how many balls each fielder gets to and makes an out on out of how many chances he has.

Range Factor (RF), however, has virtually no use as a decent measure of defense since it doesn't account AT ALL for the number of chances a fielder has. So if an OF plays behind a ground-ball staff, then, he was almost definitely have a lower RF than a poorer OF who plays behind a fly-ball staff.

As to Crisp vs. Patterson:

I'm not sure how good Crisp has been. Here's his ZRs since he's been in the league:

in CF
Year INN ZR
2002 269 .897
2003 462 .865
2004 807 .865
2005 80 .778
2006 901 .837
2007 1216 .911

An average CF is around .880.

in LF
Year INN ZR
2003 347 .876
2004 293 .949
2005 1200 .906

An average LF is around .850.

So Crisp has definitely been a defensively above-average LF, but he's only really had one year where he's been above-average defensively in CF (granted, it was last year when supposedly he slimmed down to handle the range of CF).

But like others have pointed out, if he lost that weight to improve his defense it's likely that he also will never do as well as he did OFFENSIVELY in 2004 and 2005.

Crisp is a decent gamble if all you give up is Laird and a B- prospect. He's a HORRIBLE gamble if you're trading 3 prospects for him.

Patterson's Defensive stats:
Year INN ZR
2002 1217 .875
2003 710 .869
2004 1368 .898
2005 987 .900
2006 1079 .926
2007 1057 .885

So Patterson's ranged from slightly below-average defensively to very good defensively. And he's done it generally in a lot more innings than Crisp.

So, if anything, I'd rather have PATTERSON defensively than Crisp.

OTOH, Patterson is not worth 3 years/$24 million. His offense is putrid. I'd be ok with giving him 2 years/$10 million or a Crisp-sized contract.

But if I had to choose between 2 years/$11 million w/ a $7.5 million option for 2010 for Crisp - 3 prospects or 3 years/$24 million for Patterson, I'd probably choose Patterson.

Really, the CF will likely be a holdover until the farm develops some good-great players, and 3 years/$24 million isn't really an albatross contract (cf. M Young extension, Matthews' contract, Zito's contract, or Hunter's contract).

However, giving up 3 prospects for someone who likely won't even be a centerpiece of your team when you contend is WAY too much of an overpayment.

Req

by Requiem on Nov 29, 2007 1:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Thanx, Req.....

That was really my point in even bringing up Patterson (didn't expect all the hater's)...after an admittedly, cursory glance, Patterson/Crisp look pretty close...Corey a better base-stealer with a bit more pop... Crisp, more BB's which (usually) means a better OBP...very close defensively, with maybe a slight edge to Patterson.

To sum it up...3 good prospects plus 3/$18.5M is WAY too much for Crisp, as he's not much (if any) better than Patterson, or Murphy/Byrd for that matter. Also, 3/$24M is nuts for Corey... I'm guessing more like 3/$15 or 2/$12.

by tklawless on Nov 29, 2007 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson/Crisp

Let's be real - no one on this board has ever suggested that Crisp is worth the rumored asking price of 3 prospects. And we have to assume that the Rangers don't think so either or else the deal would have already been made.

I'm not trying to "hate" on Patterson. But Crisp is clearly a better offensive player and I guess it can remain up in the air about their defense.

Career Totals:
Crisp: .280/.329/.409
Patterson: .258/.298/.414

by Randy Richardson on Nov 29, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Like I said in another post

both of Crisp's good seasons came back when he was a LF, before he lost a bunch of weight in an effort to play a better CF.

And Patterson was rushed a bit. IIRC, he was the youngest player in the major for almost a whole year, and he had to deal with Dusty Baker, who is this generations greatest ruiner of young talent.

In the last two years they've been essentially the same offensive player.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 29, 2007 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patterson/Crisp

Come on, Patterson's 28 now and you're blaming his performance on being rushed 8 years ago? You're right, their numbers have been similar over the past 2 years (although Crisp did break his index finger at the start of the 2006 season) except for one glaring exception - walks. Crisp has drawn about twice as many BBs throughout his career, 50 to 21 last year.

FWIW, Crisp played almost 100 games in CF in his best offensive year (2005), although I get your point about losing power.

by Randy Richardson on Nov 29, 2007 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Walks are great

if they lead to an increase in OPS.

Crisp the last two seasons: .702, .712
Patterson the last two seasons: .757, .690

Bottom line: Neither of them is very good.

Dwyade once challenged God to a game of 1-on-1, only to realize it's impossible to play 1-on-1 against yourself.

by thedirkatron on Nov 29, 2007 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Crisp/Patterson

"Walks are great
if they lead to an increase in OPS."

I don't know how to respond to that.

I'm not contending that either player is or isn't "very good." I'm just disagreeing with the people who are saying they are the "same player", - the stats just don't show that.

by Randy Richardson on Nov 29, 2007 9:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs