Pettitte admits using HGH

by RangerMad on Dec 15, 2007 5:34 PM CST

His excuse will probably be a common one. When does Clemens confess?

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http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-pettitte-hghadmission&prov=ap&type=lgns

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HGH

HGH is the undetectable one, right?

So this is in the report because of testimony.

I'm impressed Pettitte copped to it, considering there wasn't physical evidence.

But undetectable PEDs make the whole situation seem less resolvable, though.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Dec 15, 2007 5:38 PM CST 0 recs

Blood

Only detectable in a blood test.

Lawyers, what is the privacy difference between pissing in a cup and having blood drawn?

by neatfreakgeek on Dec 15, 2007 5:50 PM CST up 0 recs

A few issues Fourth Amendment issues

Generally speaking, the Fourth Amendment test is a balancing between the privacy interests implicated and the government interest in conducting the test.

In terms of privacy, the Supreme Court has never addressed a blood test (except for blood-alcohol tests). The Supreme Court has held that a urine test is only a slight invasion of privacy. However, the Court's analysis in these cases is usually conclusory and result-oriented: if the Court feels the search is justified, then of course the privacy implications will be minimal. I imagine the Court would say that having blood drawn isn't any worse than a urine test, even though blood testing (1) reveals more information than a urine test and (2) would be a particular hardship on foreign-born players with cultural sensitivites to blood testing as well as players who suffer from "needle phobia" (an actual disorder).

I think the bigger issue here is that current HGH tests must be administered soon after HGH is taken. Sample storage is not feasible because the samples lose their veracity after a short period of time. Although the Supreme Court has never struck down a test for lack of accuracy (of course, the science in those cases appeared to be quite strong), veracity is part of the Fourth Amendment balancing test.

(Note: the Fourth Amendment does not apply to negotiations between MLB and the MLBPA. I wrote an article explaining how proposed federal steroid-testing legislation violated the Fourth Amendment, but the players are free to waive any Fourth Amendment rights in their CBA.)

by cstorm15 on Dec 15, 2007 6:09 PM CST up 0 recs

thanks

learned a lot right there

by ab03 on Dec 15, 2007 6:20 PM CST up 0 recs

HGH

Yep, that's the one that can't be detected, short of looking for elevated levels of it in a blood test.

And even then, there are medical conditions (like acromegaly and gigantism) that can cause HGH levels to be elevated naturally. Not many athletes have either of those conditions, but there have been a few, notably Andre the Giant, The Big Show, and Gheorghe Muresan.

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Dec 15, 2007 5:57 PM CST up 0 recs

Roger

so this now puts extra pressure on Clemens, considering that he introduced Petite to that guy, right?

by neatfreakgeek on Dec 15, 2007 5:48 PM CST 0 recs

Yeah

Rotoworld's take on it, too...

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Dec 15, 2007 5:49 PM CST up 0 recs

now they can stop the bullshit

Clemens situation is different from Bonds crap...

Game of Shadows blah blah blah....

2 guys writing a book to make profit off a high profile situation?

or a senator hired to investigate a situation and give the details with no clear conflict of interest(outside of his own team)?

People have got to start admitting eventually that MLB would have done anything in its power to clear Clemens off the report if it could have.

Put Mayberry Jr. back at First Base.

by Jukebox Joe on Dec 15, 2007 5:56 PM CST 0 recs

Major League Baseball

would have done anything to not have to face the roids issue. Not sure of what you are getting at, hope it is not the race card as that would be stupid.

by rldwb on Dec 15, 2007 6:03 PM CST up 0 recs

Maybe it's the

Barry Bonds is an Enormous Douche and Everyone Hates Him-card.

"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Dec 15, 2007 10:06 PM CST up 0 recs

more of a response to this

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3156189

Put Mayberry Jr. back at First Base.

by Jukebox Joe on Dec 15, 2007 10:56 PM CST up 0 recs

Hmmm...

Not a half bad piece.

What surveys is he referencing here:

"Some will say there's a racial component to those perceptions. It's tempting to say that's a bunch of baloney, but for a long time now, surveys have shown that race is a major factor in how Bonds is perceived."

I searched for some of these surveys, but all it turned up was a bunch of articles that referenced these surveys but didn't actually show them.

I'm a little incredulous as to the validity of these mystical "surveys". I'd like to see them and see exactly what the data shows and how it was collected if anyone can dig them up.

"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Dec 16, 2007 12:20 AM CST up 0 recs

The difference

If Clemens were to come out with this same story I probably wouldn't believe a word he said.

On the other side of things, since Andy Pettite is a classy guy known for his character, I believe him.

Furthermore, I think it's classy of Pettite to immediately go to the media and lay his side of things out on the table instead of not responding at all, as many of the athletes are doing.

by rangeressary on Dec 15, 2007 6:26 PM CST 0 recs

Pettitte's admission

adds credibility to McNamee's allegations. Pettitte is admitting that McNamee is telling the truth. How can Clemens now come out and say McNamee is lying? Thursday I was feeling that it was 60-40 Clemens used PEDs. Now I think it is 90-10 against Clemens.

The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws. ~Rick Wise, 1974

by RangerMad on Dec 15, 2007 6:36 PM CST up 0 recs

Pettitte & HGH

Andy Pettitte gets called out by an attendant for using HGH two to four times, and his response is:

Yes, he'd used HGH, but only those two times.
If he's done anything wrong, well then he's sorry.
He only did what he did for his teammates.

To the first issue, doesn't it smack of "I swear officer, this is the only time I've ever driven under the influence"? Pettitte is admitting to the bare minimum of offense...only to what the evidence suggests and nothing more. Sure, he deserves some praise for facing the music when most would simply deny all allegations, but really, what are the odds he's used only those two (trainer testified two to four for whatever reason) times?

And second is the tried and true "if I've done anything wrong" malarkey. Personally, I've had enough of this excuse to last a lifetime.

Lastly, this idea that these substances were used only to aid his teammates is simply a deflection of any blame. A selfish act is recast as a selfless one. His use of performace enhancing drusg was a sacrifice made to assist others. What a load of crap.

by biff pocoroba on Dec 17, 2007 12:29 PM CST up 0 recs

it smacks of

'To catch a predator' with Chris Hansen. "I swear this is the first time i've ever done this, it was stupid, and I only wanted to be friends with the little boy/girl."

Jan. 7th LSU rises again!

by BlackGloveRighty on Dec 17, 2007 2:02 PM CST up 0 recs

Those shows...

make me ill, I can't even watch that shit.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Dec 17, 2007 5:31 PM CST up 0 recs

Really?

You must not appreciate the value of unintentional comedy.

Chris Hansen is great. He feigns astonishment and pretends to be offended when silence follows his question, "Don't you KNOW who I am?"

"Why am I the only guy who's got bio information on here? I mean shit where do you guys work anyway?" - BGL

by Chase Irwin on Dec 17, 2007 5:41 PM CST up 0 recs

Just can't do it Chase...

I appreciate all types of comedy, but it is just the context. I know what ya mean with the host playing dumb, but just the idea of it makes me nautious.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Dec 17, 2007 5:49 PM CST up 0 recs

I always thought Petitte was a class act......

Now I know it for sure....get it out and get it over with....this whole issue is a joke (IMO).

by tklawless on Dec 15, 2007 6:35 PM CST 0 recs

+1

Took his medicine and actually sounded sincere doing it. It was a part of the game at every level. Its been addressed, lets move on.

by corbsclinton on Dec 15, 2007 7:10 PM CST up 0 recs

How does this make him classy???

I don't believe for one second this makes him classy. Admitting it after the fact is nothing but a PR move and is insulting to everyone's intelligence.

He had the knowledge all along that he had taken illegal performance enhancers. He knew it before, during and after the investigation. It took his name being sullied to finally admit to it.

The respectful thing to do, is to pre-emptively admit guilt. Going to, and cooperating with Mitchell would garner some respect from me. All this shows me is he waited until the report came out just to make sure he was in it. Had his name not been brought up in this report would he still be admitting to it?

Jan. 7th LSU rises again!

by BlackGloveRighty on Dec 15, 2007 8:02 PM CST up 0 recs

From what I've seen...

calling HGH a performance enhancer in a baseball context might be a bit of a stretch.

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 15, 2007 8:14 PM CST up 0 recs

Classy was probably not the correct word to use.

But, give him credit for confessing. He could have just denied it like Clemens.

BTW: OSU 27 - LSU 17

The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws. ~Rick Wise, 1974

by RangerMad on Dec 15, 2007 8:27 PM CST up 0 recs

yeah

it's not "classy" but at least he didn't flat out deny it via a lawyer like clemens.

Can you please Look into getting a less funny signature? That's sarcasm, btw. - Sharky

by rentz on Dec 15, 2007 8:29 PM CST up 0 recs

credit for being kiniving?

see my post below...

by ab03 on Dec 15, 2007 8:31 PM CST up 0 recs

well

i didnt mean to give him credit really, just that i can appreciate him admitting it be it for pr or not.

however i also think the guy is a giant phony given all his anti ped psa's that are always on fssw during baseball season

Can you please Look into getting a less funny signature? That's sarcasm, btw. - Sharky

by rentz on Dec 15, 2007 8:33 PM CST up 0 recs

interesting

i was wondering how other ballplayers generally are reacting to it.

i guess if you haven't been doing it, you'd be pretty pissed at anybody who does do these things.

by ab03 on Dec 15, 2007 8:28 PM CST up 0 recs

Exactly

As for the comment that they're not a performance enhancer, I don't believe it for a second. The benefit of HGH is faster recovery/regeneration. As a starting pitcher, anything the speeds or aids that process illegally is a performance enhancer. As the season wears on, the four days in between starts feels shorter and shorter each time through. I can't even imagine how tough it is to get your body ready above age 35. If there's a drug that speeds that process up, and some won't take it because it's illegal, that gives the using player and tremendous advantage.

Secondly, I couldn't even throw out a ballpark figure as to how many players I've played with in the minors or majors that have used steroids. I've never done any digging, and have rarely had any conversations on the subject so any answer I gave to that would be irresponsible, and most likely dead wrong.

Thirdly, I truly don't believe he deserves any respect for his admission in this, being as it came after the fact. I'd have a lot more respect had he come clean to Mitchell or anyone else before a repsonse was required of him. As for the players who have yet to respond, I'm bothered by it. I'd like to hear CJ's thoughts on this too since I've yet to discuss this with anybody.

Fourthly, to my knowledge, each individual is going to handle his response on his own with the MLBPA. I'm not sure what their feelings are on others comments. CJ can fill me in on that.

Jan. 7th LSU rises again!

by BlackGloveRighty on Dec 15, 2007 10:07 PM CST up 0 recs

Performance enhancing...

I'll have to go dig out the link, but there was an interesting series of posts about the issue on another site.

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 15, 2007 10:32 PM CST up 0 recs

Your post...

...shows what character you got. If more players had your character I think they would have before Mitchell or any report, but ALL of them chose the other route. My question was how did the player's association advise players what to do or did they not offer blanket advice for all members. Changing the subject, I really thought roids was more rampant in the minor leagues than someone who wasn't looking wouldn't notice, never would have known that...

by corbsclinton on Dec 15, 2007 10:42 PM CST up 0 recs

I think the MLBPA

was dealing with everyone individually.

Strangely in the minor leagues I hardly noticed anything. Then again a testing program had been in place for awhile I believe so that may have been why. I was drafted in 02 so the testing has been active since I started.

Jan. 7th LSU rises again!

by BlackGloveRighty on Dec 15, 2007 10:57 PM CST up 0 recs

I appreciate your...

candidness...We are about the same age and I forgot when that program started. Man, something I really think we LSBer's need: a shot in the arm on why you and BGL think we are gonna win next year. I know, you gotta believe ya'll are gonna do well. Tell us why...

by corbsclinton on Dec 15, 2007 11:10 PM CST up 0 recs

Hey, Bmac...

here's the article I was looking for...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.hgh11sep11,0,5691551,full.story

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 15, 2007 11:29 PM CST up 0 recs

J.C.Bradbury has posted many times on HGH, he's practically on a crusade to get the media to stop exaggerating the effects of HGH on athletic performance.

http://www.sabernomics.com/

Tomorrow Never Knows

by t ball on Dec 16, 2007 12:25 AM CST up 0 recs

Ben,

I don't know what is worse. That the writer of that article got paid to write that crap or the fact that you are citing it. As a matter of discourse, how much laboratory testing do you think has been done on athletes concerning steroid abuse or HGH abuse? The people who study these things, exercise physiologists, MD's or whoever have to go by strict protocols that are regulated by their organization as well as the NIH. They would never, ever, ever administer doses to their subjects that would endanger their health and I seriously doubt that any self-respecting scientist would ever perform laboratory studies with controlled drugs for athletic purposes. If they did, they might/probably would land in jail and stripped of their credentials. As far as I know all of the studies concerning HGH concern elderly people and not elite, in their prime athletes who are taking 10, 50, 100 or even 1000 times the recommended safe dosage. Another thing that really dampens my enthusiasm for this argument is that HGH poses some real and severe health risks. There is just no way that an experiment necessary to prove your null hypothesis would ever be allowed to take place even if you could get some medical researchers interested.

I know we've discussed this before and for the life of me I can't figure out why you guys keep repeating the same old dogma without ever looking into the primary source literature to know the generalizability of the studies or their limitations. The only way that we are going to find out if HGH actually does work is through professional bodybuilders. They have tried everything and they know what does and doesn't work. If these guys take HGH then you can bet the farm that it does work. If they don't then you probably have an argument.

by gp on Dec 16, 2007 1:01 AM CST up 0 recs

Okay...

"They have tried everything and they know what does and doesn't work. If these guys take HGH then you can bet the farm that it does work. If they don't then you probably have an argument."

So you're saying that I provided anecdotal evidence from bodybuilders I would have an argument, but scientific studies means I don't?

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 16, 2007 1:08 AM CST up 0 recs

Ben,

there are no legitimate scientific studies that say what you are trying to make them say. They can't be done. Immoral, illegal, unethical, are just a few of the terms one might use to describe something of that nature. The NIH would never, ever approve something like that. The studies you cited were for legitimate medical research which can never be generalized in this way. I know there is a lot of bad science going on right now but providing a young adult with HGH to test athletic gains would not only be gross negligence but extreme malpractice. HGH is severe. It is very dangerous. That can't be stated enough.

by gp on Dec 16, 2007 2:15 AM CST up 0 recs

I find it incongruous...

to say the least that you object to the available studies on scientific grounds and state that the best way to establish the truth is to ask bodybuilders. That, to put it simply, is idiocy.

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 16, 2007 2:21 AM CST up 0 recs

Are you really this simple?

Or are you just trying to rile me up?

I am really beginning to wonder if your neurons are actually firing right now. I object to scientific studies being misrepresented as something they are not. I object to the notion that you have that there is any correlation between sound science and athletic doping. There just isn't and never will be. Scientific studies are controlled, monitored, evaluated. Drug abuse by athletes is random, uncontrolled and dangerous. HGH is a dangerous drug even in small quantities. This is known. That is why studies can't be done. That is why studies to the efficacy of improving athletic performance will never be accepted, approved of by the governing bodies or financed by grants. Equipment, training methods, supplements, are all fair game with approval. Controlled substances will never be allowed.

by gp on Dec 16, 2007 2:39 AM CST up 0 recs

It took some time...

before a definitive link between steroid use and athletic performance was found, but it was scientifically established and it is rightly accepted as fact now. Scientific studies can suggest whether the belief that HGH is indeed performance enhancing or not. To simply keep saying "we'll never know! Ask the bodybuilders!" would indicate that your neurons are the ones that aren't firing.

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Dec 16, 2007 2:43 AM CST up 0 recs

I agree with Ben here

I will take the word of scientists before I accept the word of athletes so desparate to try anything and everything to aid their performance, that they will ignore health risks and legal complications to take it.

You cannot trust the objectivity of athletes in this. Some people send money to televangelists at promises of God returning wealth; some wear magnetic armbands despite no evidence it helps; should we take these examples of misplace faith to mean these things work?

Your reasoning that athletes' desparate hopes are more important than scientific studies is just as ludicrous.

Tomorrow Never Knows

by t ball on Dec 16, 2007 10:31 AM CST up 0 recs

B-Mac

Did the MLB PA advise anyone questioned that the PA did not suggest talking to anyone on this? wait... thats really a BGL question but I'm guessing you know too...So Pettite was the first guy to say, "You know, that was me, I did it, and its my bad, I apologize". As a fan, thats a breath of fresh air. Much better than the 10 renditions on the way GM JR handled it. Also, coming through the minor leagues, what was the % of teamates you had weren't juicing???

Glad you joined the board. Having BGL here has been pretty cool. He told me about a kickass save he had last season and its awesome getting it firsthand.

No Blisters OK?

by corbsclinton on Dec 15, 2007 8:45 PM CST up 0 recs

Word

Great take.

"God plays by his own rules, folks. And HGH is f***ing legal as hell up in heaven." -Andy Pettitte

by thedirkatron on Dec 15, 2007 10:08 PM CST up 0 recs

Yeah,

It only makes him a notch above Clemens. And I don't necessarily believe that's the only time he did it, like he said, either.

This reminds me a little of Aaron Boone. When he hurt his knee playing basketball, he came forward and admitted it, and there were legions of sportscasters commending him for his size large integrity.

Uh, no. He was playing ball with 9 other guys, and possibly more watching. He just did what any halfway intelligent person would-he came clean b/c he knew he couldn't lie his way out of it.

Would he have told the truth if he was alone when it happened, like Jeff Kent was? Possibly. But if he really was this paragon of integrity like the MSM was claiming, he wouldn't have been violating his contract by playing ball in the first place.

Why do you hate freedom?

by Brian Thomas on Dec 16, 2007 3:05 PM CST up 0 recs

It wasn't even banned when he tried it......

I can damn sure understand why a guy wouldn't "pre-emtively" admit anything as nutty as all this shit is nowadays.

This whole issue is total bullshit. Many, many names on there are retired and a lot used (even if the coerced testamony is true) before it was banned....we got a bunch of lawyers on here, right? What is the statute of limitations for the crime of 'posessing a controlled substance without a prescription' and what would be the punishment for a first offense? That's all we're talking about here. Steroids aren't illegal, as long as they are obtained from a licensed physician, right?

We're spending a $ billion week in Irag. The national debt is staggering (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/), etc., etc., etc....and millions care if Barry took something because the red-headed one trick pony & 'sideshow' sammy were getting all the pub for HR's?....Bonds minus all the HR's is still one of the greatest ballplayer's of all time.

by tklawless on Dec 16, 2007 3:28 PM CST up 0 recs

Illegal...

My understanding was that HGH didn't become illegal until after he took it.

by markaholden on Dec 16, 2007 11:34 PM CST up 0 recs

This adds some validity to what...

McNamee has said. Why would he lie about Clemems and not Pettitte?

If Pettitte did only use it those 2 days like he says (but I'm not sure I buy that) then I applaud him for being honest and admitting it. I think there will be many more confessions like this where guys come out and say they did it to heal from a injury.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Dec 15, 2007 6:44 PM CST 0 recs

another way to look at it

Pettite's PR guy is way smarter than Clemens' PR guy.

Without speaking to whether Pettite is lying or not, given the allegations, it seems much smarter to just admit to using them once, especially if it was to get over injury or get back in the league, and make it sound like you only ever did it once than to either deny it outright or not say anything about it. So far, Pettite, Santangelo, and Allen have all admitted to using them once or twice and though the last two have no publicity to lose, they all seem to have come off kind of like victims. "The game is demanding, I just want to play baseball, I'll do anything I can to help my team..." It's a story that people can relate to.

Clemens could have nipped it in the bud if he wanted to. too late now

by ab03 on Dec 15, 2007 6:51 PM CST 0 recs