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Around SBN: Tim Wakefield Retires

Evan Grant's HOF ballot

Evan Grant has a blog entry up, giving his HOF ballot and explanations for why he voted for those guys.

The seven players Grant voted for include the three most deserving -- Blyleven, Raines, and Gossage -- if we exclude Mark McGwire from the "deserving" list because of the steroids issues.

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wow
he has a solid ballot.

unlike many people, i think andre dawson SHOULD get in.

same with tommy john.

i don't support conception though.

i DO think mcgwire SHOULD get in...eventually. dude was a 12 time all star, won a world series ring (appeared in 3 series)

was injured during 3 "peak" years of his career and still hit nearly 600 homers.  

he struck out a lot, but knew how to take a walk.

career ops+ is 162. good for 12th. that's ahead of stan musial, hank greenberg, tris speaker, willie mays, hank aaron.

people say he's a glorified dave kingman.  totally untrue.  kingman never walked.  kingman struck out more often.  and his average was nearly 30 points lower.  

is mcgwire a 1st ballot hall of famer (this is moot of course)?  no.  

did i think he was a first ballot HOFer before the scandal?  no.  

but i DO think he should get in in a few seasons.

i think my ballot would be (in order of how much it's deserved):

bert blylevin
goose gossage
tommy john
tim raines
alan trammell

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 12:40 AM CST reply actions  

oops
put andre dawson in there.  my bad
Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 12:43 AM CST up reply actions  

same here
those are the three most deserving.
Juevos Daniels: biggest stones in the business.

by tricer on Dec 31, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Me
Blyleven
Raines
McGwire
Gossage
Dawson
Trammell
Murphy

by a bebop a rebop on Dec 31, 2007 2:07 AM CST reply actions  

Seriously?
Trammell and Murphy?  Seriously?

Murphy - An OF with a career .815 OPS, who only led the league in OPS once, runs once and home runs twice (36 and 37 home runs).  His career totals in the HoF categories (whether we like them or not) are .265 avg, 398 home runs and 2111 hits...in 17 seasons.  Those are the numbers of a good outfielder who had two really good years.  With that said, that's not even close to hall of fame quality.  Players like Murphy are good in their day, but look at the history of baseball, every decade has 25 or 30 of them, and whereas they are good, they definitely shouldn't be in the Hall unless we want to basically open it up to everyone who ever won an MVP or led the league in homers.  If we let in guys like Murphy, then being a hall of famer would mean next to nothing.

Trammell - Trammell had a few good years (esp. 1987), but he had some pretty bad ones as well.  In fact, in his 19 full seasons, he had a below league average OPS in 10 of them.  Considering he was a shortstop that's somewhat justifiable though.  He never led the league in any major categories for his season or for his career.  He was known as a pure hitter, yet only broke 200 hits once.  Basically, he was a good shortstop from the 80s.  He's somebody that most teams would have liked to have had on the roster in the 80s, but he's definitely (and really there's no way to justify saying that he should be) a hall of famer.

by rangeressary on Dec 31, 2007 7:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Disclaimer:
I'm a big Hall kind of guy, because I believe that the Veteran's Committee has given us a big Hall and if we don't keep that up we're shafting the new guys.

As for Trammell: he's probably the 10th or 11th best SS in baseball history.  Without knowing anything else about him, that's good enough for me to put him in the HoF.

He was a very good defender at the most premium defensive position on the field besides catcher, and his offensive peak, although it was more spread out through his career, was close to Jim Rice's.  Here are the top 7 OPS+ seasons for each.

Rice:
157
154
147
141
136
130
127

Trammell:
155
138
138
137
135
130
120

They're not quite equal offensively but when you consider defensive value and baserunning value, I think Trammell pulls way ahead.

Dale Murphy: again, I think you're missing a lot of the value provided by premium defense at a premium position.  To me, he's the 11th best CF of all time, clearly better than Kirby Puckett, Max Carey, Earle Combs, Elmer Flick, Hugh Duffy, Richie Ashburn, and Hack Wilson.  When you consider the actual CFs that have been inducted into the HoF, Dale Murphy is way above the line.

Plus, I'm a sucker for a monster peak, and Dale Murphy had a better offensive peak than Jim Rice, and offensive peak is the only thing going for Jim Rice.

A word about Jim Rice (because I've used him for two comparisons): I don't think he should be in the HoF, but I wouldn't be too upset if he was.  He's pretty much my definition of borderline, so Trammell and Murphy coming out ahead in direct comparisons means to me that they ought to be in.  Rice is clearly far above the standard which actually exists for the HoF, although if we truly used the VC standards we'd have to expand the Hall to about 500 people.

by a bebop a rebop on Dec 31, 2007 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right...
The Veteran's Committee has given us a big hall, and we're stuck with it.  The problem is that if the BBWAA keeps voting in based on lower standards then I believe the VC will continue to lower their standards as well.

by rangeressary on Dec 31, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

how long
until crime dog gets on the ballot?

fred mcgriff was tight.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:13 AM CST reply actions  

oops
i know...google is a wonderful thing

2009 1st time nominees will be:

Steve Avery, Jay Bell, John Burkett, David Cone, Mike Bordick, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Denny Neagle, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams, Mike Williams

i'm guessing ricky henderson will be the only 1st ballot. other high vote getters would be mo vaughn and mark grace.  

2010 1st time nominees will be:

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, Todd Zeile

fred mcgriff is a 1st ballot HOFer imo.  edgar martinez will get a lot of votes.  so will barry larkin.

2011 1st time nominees will be:

Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Mike Hampton, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Hideo Nomo, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Benito Santiago, Ugueth Urbina, Larry Walker

no sure if there are any 1st ballot guys.  larry wakler i think gets in eventually.  jeff bagwell is border line.  palmeiro is a mystery to many. i'm sure he'll get plenty of votes too.  juan gonzalez will get votes too.  i alway though john olerud was very good, but no HOF.

 

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:18 AM CST up reply actions  

uggh
i wish i could edit posts.

i think  roberto alomar is a hall of famer.  if not in 2010, then on the 2nd ballot in 2011.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:22 AM CST up reply actions  

2011...
Interesting group...

Speaking of Ugueth Urbina, he still in jail?

Olerud seemed like such a strange person, maybe it was the batting helmet he wore 100% of the time...

Ron Paul doesn't go to the gym. He stays fit by exercising his civil rights.

by miles on Dec 31, 2007 2:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Fred McGriff first-ballot?
My initial instinct is no way, but he was a real good player for a really long time.  Definitely better than Tony Perez and probably better than Orlando Cepeda, although I'm not sure if those are the criteria we oughta use.

by a bebop a rebop on Dec 31, 2007 2:26 AM CST up reply actions  

well
i'm not gonna go in depth into it.  but i think he's a first ballot guy.

i know he was only a 5 time all star. never won an mvp, or a gold glove.

a career .284 average is good.  .377 obp is nice.  OPS+ of 134 i his career.

493 home runs.  1550 rbi.  1349 runs.  

i think he compares nicely with guys of his era.

i place his "era" as just before the crazy numbers put up by guys like jeff bagwell, frank thomas and jim thome.

though i guess only a few years separate them.  

i'm kind of biased i guess because i was always a fred mcgriff fan.  i didn't let my fanhood cloud my judgement on mark grace and john olerud though :)

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Very Interesting
As of right now, I'd probably vote:
  1.  Rickey
  2.  Alomar and maybe McGriff
  3.  Raffy (steroids or not, his second stint in Arlington was incredible) and maybe Bagwell
Very interesting groups of players.  Some are really good, but few are surefire HoFers outside of Rickey who will be a definite first ballot electee.

by rangeressary on Dec 31, 2007 7:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Bagwell
He was better than Raffy and McGriff.

by Darrell McKown on Dec 31, 2007 8:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep
Bagwell is unquestionable as a HoFer in my mind.

by a bebop a rebop on Dec 31, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

haha
from http://jc_baseball_analysis.mlblogs.com/jc_baseball_analysis/2006/12/wally_joyner_a_.html

on why wally joyner should be in the hall of fame...

highlights of the blog:

For that matter, let's briefly go over the notable aspects of Joyner's statistical record:

    * 7 years of at least 30 2B's (Functionally, 9, at least when you count in his two years of 29 2B's)
    * 2 years having driven in at least 100 runs
    * 4 years of having hit at least .300 (Functionally, 5)
    * 8 years with more walks than strikeouts
    * Had more career walks than strikeouts
    * Compiled at least 2,000 hits during his career, a good number for Cooperstown consideration
    * Compiled over 1,000 RBI's, another one of those "good numbers"
    * 409 career 2B's
    * 8 seasons with a fielding percentage of at least .995
    * Career fielding percentage of .994

...Anyone who saw Joyner play knows his defense is Hall-worthy. I'm not sure who the current leader is, but the career leader in fielding percentage for a first baseman used to be Steve Garvey, at .9959 (For all first basemen who played at least 1600 games). Joyner, at .994, isn't that far behind, and probably ranks pretty high on that career fielding percentage list for first basemen.
....Wally Joyner was something of the epitome of a good baseball character. He was described all around, by teammates and writers alike, as truly a great guy and a guy who gave baseball 100%. I think he also gave money to charities.
...It would be an understatement to say, "Wally Joyner was a fan favorite."

He wasn't just a 'fan favorite.'

He was "WallyWorld!"

...but this is where it gets good:

In his rookie season, (1986) Joyner arrival led to a sudden increase in winning percentage from the previous year, from .556...to .568 and a division title. This is particularly significant as the team had lost Rod Carew and Tommy John, its two biggest stars from 1985. Joyner was rightfully voted the starting 1st Baseman for the All-Star team, yet lost the Rookie of the Year to Jose "Juiced" Canseco and finished 8th in AL MVP voting to Roger Clemens.

Jose Canseco?

Roger Clemens?

In retrospect, giving the Rookie of the Year to a steroid user was not a smart move, especially given that Jose Canseco never figured into the AL MVP voting.

But we didn't know he was a steroid user at the time.

Roger Clemens is another story. He wasn't even the clear MVP on his team (Wade Boggs hit .356 and won the batting title), much less the league. Besides, it's really hard to justify giving an MVP award to a guy who just goes every 5th day.

And no, I don't think he took steroids.

Joyner should have been MVP that season. He single-handedly took the burden left by legitimate Hall-of-Famers (Yes, I think Tommy John is deserving of the Hall of Fame) and led the Angels all the way to the top in a tougher division than it is today. I realize it's usually safer to vote for a veteran rather than a rookie, but this case defied standards.

In 1987, Joyner had his best season, but having a team filled with aging veterans is not necessarily going to win ballgames, and the Angels drop from first to worst.

Joyner was the clear MVP of his team, but probably not the league.

The same probably goes for the rest of Joyner's first career with the Angels.

Joyner left for the Royals in 1992, and the Angels promptly dropped from .500 to .444 (So, ironically, did the Royals, as Joyner had an off year).
Joyner improved their record the next year as he had one of his finest offensive years.

It was, however, with the Padres, that Joyner really worked the Joe Morgan Effect. Upon his arrival, the Padres took the division after improving from .486 to .562, even though Joyner had modest numbers.

His teammate, Ken Caminiti, took all the credit and the MVP award, after having a monster, steroids-induced season.

Given Caminiti's troubled life, I don't think he just happened to take steroids that year. I'm not trying to say Joyner made him take steroids, but rather that Caminiti was inspired by Joyner's presence to boost his numbers. They were close friends.

Whatever the reasons, the facts remain that Joyner arrived, Caminiti promptly had a monster year, and the Padres surged to the top after having been nobodies the previous few years.

Joyner, of course, should have had that MVP.

The next year, inexplicitly, the Padres drop to the cellar, though Joyner has one of his finest offensive years.

In 1998, Joyner has his last good year, and the Padres go all the way to the World Series before being steamrollered by the unstoppable Yankees.

Of course, a couple of guys named Sosa and McGwire set the record book on fire that year, so Joyner doesn't get the MVP.

In 1999, as injuries reduced Joyner's playing time, the Padres' record dropped again, this time not to be revived until years later. Joyner would retire in 2001, as an Angel.

Despite the fact that Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman have been (Or were) Padres their entire baseball careers, and despite the fact that the Padres later acquired players like Phil Nevin and Ryan Klesko, the Padres have never returned to the World Series since the time they had a healthy Wally Joyner.

That's fairly significant.

By my count, Joyner was deserving of 3 MVP awards during his career, a total that would put him among all-time greats. Only 8 players have ever been awarded 3 MVP awards: Mike Schmidt, Jimmie Foxx, Stan Musial, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Barry Bonds. Statistically, these guys are truly some the best the game has ever seen. To put him in that group, deservedly, speaks volumes on Joyner's value to his teams.

But he never got the awards, you might say. Well, of the four specific instances, three involved steroid users.

Feel free to reach your own conclusions. I've already shown you the evidence.

...    * Passable primary statistics that would fit in with the Hall of Fame
    * An excellent batting eye, as evidenced by having more walks than strikeouts
    * One of the best defensive 1st Basemen ever
    * A man of good character and integrity who's case actually looks better when you bring in what he said to ESPN The Magazine
    * Might have saved Angels baseball
    * Should have won 3 MVP's

/

i'm convinced :)

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 4:48 AM CST reply actions  

HoF Stats and Some Thoughts
.289 career batting average
204 home runs
2010 hits

Those stats look even worse when you consider he was playing first base, which is traditionally a strong offensive position.  He never led the league in any major category.  He was only in the top five of batting average once, home runs once and RBIs once.

You may feel that he "should" have won those MVPs, but most people disagree.  Even in the season that you admit was his "best" year (1987), he was only 13th in MVP voting.  And how about the fans?  Do they think he deserved those MVPs?  I sure don't think so, because if they did they might have voted him into the All-Star game more than once (his rookie year).

Furthermore, in 1986, you argue as if everyone who had a better year was a steroid user.  Ummm, Joyner (.290/.348/.457) wasn't even the best first baseman in the American League that season.  Mattingly (.352/.394/.573) was light years better offensively and very good defensively.  Puckett (.328/.366/.537) was likewise much better offensively.  Even if you rid the ballots of anyone accused of using steroids, Joyner was maybe the fifth best player in the AL that year.  Being a good guy alone shouldn't justify giving him the MVP over those other guys.

As for defense, this category is extremely subjective.  IMO, Joyner was an above average, extremely good defensive first baseman.  Was he the best defensive first baseman ever?  Probably not, but he may have been the best of his era.

When you put all of that together, you have a guy who was an average to below average first baseman offensively, and above average to great player defensively.  Was he the best first baseman of his era?  Not by any stretch of the imagination.  Was he ever the best first baseman in the league in any given season?  I think this is extremely hard to justify as well.  Was he a very good player in 1986 and 1987?  Yeah, but he wasn't close to MVP level.  Was he a good player in 1998?  Yeah, for a first baseman he was slightly above league average.  Is there anyway that I personally could ever justify voting for him for the hall of fame?  No, because doing so would mean that my ballot would be full of names every year because there are so many average to above average players on the ballot, which is where I think Joyner falls.  

For instance, compare Jeff Conine to Wally Joyner.  Offensively, they are nearly identical.  Defensively he had a .990 fielding pct. compared to Joyner's .994.  So yeah, if I voted in Joyner and I had any integrity, I would have to vote in Jeff Conine, haha.

Joyner seems like a good person, and he was a pretty good ballplayer, but he will never make the hall of fame for good reason.

by rangeressary on Dec 31, 2007 8:26 AM CST up reply actions  

that article was a joke
what's funny is the extent to which the author went to prove that people shouldn't go to extreme lengths to "prove" that somebody is hall of fame material.

honestly, it should be provable in 1 or 2 sentences.  

but, and i do it all the time, most of us have our favorites that we really really really want in and we will try to convince people by confusing them that they deserve it.

i did that with will clark once.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I could easily
turn in a blank ballot this year.

Then again, Id prefer a small Hall.

When the best picks are guys like Rock Raines and Bert Blyleven, guys who no one ever thought of as the  best player in the game in any given year, then I could easily no vote with a clear conscience.

No one ever feared Blyleven or Raines, no one ever game planned for them, no one ever bought tickets just to see them.

"As of now they're (The Astros) world series favorites. Period." - Sharky

by DJCahill on Dec 31, 2007 5:36 AM CST reply actions  

what current players would you put in?
barry bonds
ken griffey
roger clemens
randy johnson
manny ramirez

and maybe frank thomas?

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 7:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Pedro Martinez
I think even if his career ended today he would be a pretty easy first ballot vote for me.

by rangeressary on Dec 31, 2007 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd definitely add
Pedro
ARod

I'd have to think about others.

I like peak value more than guys who grind it out for 20+ years and a good, but not great level.  

I would not be horribly offended if one of the long time lifers, like Blyleven made it, but it wouldn't be my vote.  I'd rather the hall be reserved for the truly great, rather than the very good for a long time, like Palmeiro.

"As of now they're (The Astros) world series favorites. Period." - Sharky

by DJCahill on Dec 31, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Current players
You've got the six you mentioned (including Thomas) and the two that Cahill mentioned (ARod and Pedro).  Then you've got:

Maddux, Glavine and Piazza for sure.

I'm not a big fan of relievers, but I think Hoffman and especially Rivera are in.

Pujols will get in, unless he completely falls off the map the rest of his career.

Sosa will have the same issue that McGwire has, but he should get in.

Sheffield is a borderline guy, in my opinion.

by Darrell McKown on Dec 31, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

pudge?
he's a top 3 defensive catcher ever probably.

and probably top 10 offensive one as well.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Dec 31, 2007 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Cahill
You wouldn't vote for McGwire?
Juevos Daniels: biggest stones in the business.

by tricer on Dec 31, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

blyleven
game planned?  I don't know what that means but if people didn't fear him then they were stupid.  

by ab03 on Dec 31, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Not gonna argue specific cases here
But frankly, the Veteran's Committee has already made the decision on whether it's gonna be a big hall or a small hall.

I'd be willing to bet that once Cooperstown realizes how many fewer HoFers are being inducted from recent years as compared to B.C. 2000 - A.D. 1960ish, a new VC will be created to get in your Rices, Trammells, Parkers, Morrises, etc.

by a bebop a rebop on Dec 31, 2007 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

meh
I just can't get worked up on who is or isn't in the HOF.
Cranberry Sauce

by t ball on Dec 31, 2007 6:51 AM CST reply actions  

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