OT: Ugh. Scooter libby semi-pardoned

by Brian Thomas on Jul 2, 2007 6:10 PM CDT Comment 103 comments

Not surprisingly, Scooter's entire prison sentence has been commuted by our Commander-in-Chief.

He will still have the felony conviction on his record, which means he will most likely be disbarred, and his fine remains 250K, so this isn't technically a pardon. But Bush declared that the Republican special prosecutor and Republican judge he appointed were way off base with the 30 month prison sentence.

Any pundit that alleges the fine means anything is a liar. Libbey will be compensated 10 or 20 times over for taking one for the team, and I don't really have a problem with that. He was just Cheney's hatchet man, after all. Don't get me wrong, this whole deal is reprehensible, but Scooter was just being a loyal soldier.

Flame away, Bush apologists and haters of OT diaries...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570081/

Bush's full explanation (he and his entire staff ducked any Q&A):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570172/

p.s. If you are interested in a pretty comprehensive breakdown of the Libby case, David Schuster is hosting Hardball right now (7-8 EST).

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Unbelievable

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 2, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately,

quite believable, expected even.

by t ball on Jul 2, 2007 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Puhleeeze!

Cut and paste this link into your address bar and see what comes up! Especially you youngsters!

http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is

Unbelievable

One picture is worth 1,000 denials.

by nirvana on Jul 2, 2007 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now I'm not saying

that one is better or worse than the other, but I am saying that all Presidents seem to be scum...or at least they are all OK with accepting money for favors! PITIFUL!

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Man.....

Bill sure knew a lot of coke dealers!

by bdavison94 on Jul 2, 2007 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you don't understand

why it's worse to pardon someone for doing something wrong so closely tied to your own administration?

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 2, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come On

Read the list. They all do it. Don't pick sides, or they got you.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

they got me?

whatever that means.

anyway, apparently you cannot distinguish cases.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 2, 2007 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You got me

better get my money back from law school and 25 years of lawyering. I defer to your wisdom.
Back to baseball for me...

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude

You just got CREDENTIALIZED

by a bebop a rebop on Jul 2, 2007 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pardons

http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/bushgrants.htm

There's Bush's dad. A shorter list, but of course he only served one term. Regardless, Libbey's is a VERY high profile pardon...HW Bush's and Clinton's were not.

You have to admit it's different. And I'm sure we'll see a lengthy list from W. Bush when his term is up. I'd be surprised if it didn't come close to Clinton's.

I don't see why everyone has to bring up Clinton when Bush does something wrong.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 2, 2007 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

clinton

his record will probably never be broken.

and i'm pretty sure W won't come close to pardoning people on the scale of both his predecessors.

but i'm pretty sure this one pardon is far worse than any by the other two.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 2, 2007 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not defending him

I'm saying that they all (?) do it, from both parties. How come when someone brings up Clinton, he gets defended?
Being a homer in baseball is cool; being a homer in politics isn't.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

whatever

I could make a good case for partisan politics being a good thing, but I'm not going to waste my time here. However, when it comes to ATTACK politics, it's bad. Partisan politics based on ideology or specific policy is a good thing.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 2, 2007 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's defending Clinton?

"Everyone's doing it, so why don't we". That's some top notch argument there buddy.

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 2, 2007 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're Right:

Clinton was wrong! Bush is wrong! Bush is wrong!
I've said all along that Bush is wrong!
Agree or disagree?
And who is "We"? I'm not a Bush-supporter.
I'm not being subjective. Are you?

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so...

You are arguing that no distinction or gradation can be made about any pardon ever? That seems like a pretty uninsightful argument for a guy with 25 years legal experience.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 2, 2007 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This isn't a pardon.

Commutation is different. And I never made that argument. And uninsightful isn't a word. And this is ridiculous. I don't even like Bush.
And as President, he's going to do what he wants whether it's right or wrong, and whether you like it or not. That was my simple point.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fine

I think everyone around here recognizes the difference between a pardon and a commutation. And, everyone recognizes that the president has unappealable authority to grant either of those. Still, you have argued the same point about 50 times. I know that he can grant a commutation. That's pretty obvious considering he just did it. Most people are suggesting that just because he can and just because other presidents have done it under different circumstances in the past, doesn't mean that it is ethically justified in this instance.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 2, 2007 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently not

but it's hard to argue with your position...or that of "most people". Most presidential pardons are not ethically justified.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bush Sr

Looking at this as objectively as possible, I think GHWB's list is about as unassailable and any president in recent history (last 50 years plus). Maybe that is because the party cronies had already been received clemency from Reagan, but it is not just because his term was shorter than Clinton's.

Senior Bush granted only 74 (less than 1/5 of the Clinton numbers) and less than half od those came once he was a lame duck. Of Clinton's 396 pardons, a whopping 258 of them came after the election in 2000 (218 on his final day as president).

I still say they are all dirty, but since you're a Clinton supporter, you'd probably do better sticking to attacking Dubya, or Reagan or Ford or even Nixon and avoid Bush, Sr. altogether when it comes to comparing clemency actions.

by Brandon Wilson on Jul 3, 2007 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bush the elder

my favorite Republican of the past 40 years. This guy:

used diplomacy to build a consensus to go after Hussein, and then massive force to carry it out.
did the politically courageous thing and agreed to raise some taxes to balance the budget. His own party crucified him for it.
threw up on a foreign dignitary. bonus points.

by t ball on Jul 3, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not attacking Bush's pardons

I could attack some of them but I'm not doing that. I posted it simply to illustrate that Presidents generally pardon a lot of people.

I bet you could look down the line at any President's pardons and most of them probably were NOT dirty. That will include W. Bush's by the time he's done.

The Libby commutation in particular, however, is pretty egregious. I will say this: at least he didn't give him a full pardon. He still may do that, but who knows. He hasn't yet.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 3, 2007 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dirty

wasn't trying to say all clemency actions were dirty... just meant that all politicians are dirty.

I am sure a lot of clemency actions are very clearly justifiable, but if I was president I would sign off on those as soon as the facts made it clear that it was the right thing. If I was doing a friend a favor, that's when I'd wait until I was a lame duck or an election that might affect might party was over... that's dirty.

Again, they all do it, I just noticed Bush Sr. did quite a bit less of it than any president in recent history.

by Brandon Wilson on Jul 3, 2007 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bush Sr.

He didn't do it as much, but there were some prominent Iran/Contra figures he let off the hook. That was pretty controversial at the time.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 3, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know....

I thought the pardons Clinton handed out like candy at the end of his term were a disgrace.

But I'm not sure why Clinton's pardons make GW's actions today any less reprehensible.

And I find it remarkable, in checking out the Corner at the National Review website, that "Clinton did it" seems to be the defense of choice.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 2, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Adam!

The point is that EVERYBODY DID IT! And just because someone says "Clinton did it, too!" doesn't mean that Clinton didn't do it, too!
How about this: Who cares if Clinton did it?
Reagan did it. Bush, Sr. did it. They all did it.
And they were all wrong!
What's the argument here?

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And BTW

if you checked, they weren't all at the end of his term.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's true

but that Jan 20, 2001 list is pretty amazing...

by Brandon Wilson on Jul 3, 2007 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it will never be topped

for me, I kind of like the idea of completely abusing your power on the last day of office. Like telling everybody to fuck off on the last day of work.

I mean, I'm not respecting Clinton more for it and it kind of solidifies my opinion of him as a shady guy that if he were my friend, I'd keep him at arm's length. but, no one could ever argue that clinton didn't enjoy his stay in office!

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 3, 2007 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, it will be topped someday

never underestimate politicians.

by t ball on Jul 3, 2007 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yep

What Clinton did was rotten, but this one stinks to high heaven. Libby misdeeds were tied directly into the campaign of obfuscation that led to the Iraq war. He outed Valerie Plame in order to discredit Joe Wilson and to silence a critic of the war. That is much seedier than anything done by Clinton (that I'm aware of) or Bush's dad (with the possible exception of the Iran-Contra pardons).

It's extremely ironic that Bush's backers are using the "Clinton did it" defense when Bush campaigned to bring "honor and integrity back to the White House." I guess that perjury isn't a big deal for pro-Bush Republicans any more.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 2, 2007 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The difference

is that Bush did this for someone who committed a crime on behalf of Bush himself.

by mjh on Jul 3, 2007 6:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I didn't go throught the whole list of roughly 400 names, but it is hard to believe that none of those people committed their crime while being employed by Clinton (and I'm sure I'd say the same about any president int eh last 50 years).

I think the whole point here is politics is a dirty, despicable business. Frankly, I have been embarassed by every president who held office in my adult life, and I imagine if I had not been young and naive I'd have been embarassed by those of my childhood as well. Show me a career politician and I'll show you a crook.

by Brandon Wilson on Jul 3, 2007 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good.

Joe Wilson is a joke.

One picture is worth 1,000 denials.

by nirvana on Jul 2, 2007 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah

how dare he expose Bush's lies....

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 2, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

why am i not surprised?

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Jul 2, 2007 6:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

good

Bush finally did something right after he made a disgrace of himself trying to give all illegals amnesty.

"Somebody give dstar a hug. Or send Eric Hurley to give him a hug. Or something like that."

by dstar442005 on Jul 2, 2007 6:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

being a party hack

is admirable?

by a bebop a rebop on Jul 2, 2007 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If so

Then we all have to admire the hell out of dstar.

We ain't never not made it before, have we?

by Chris Martin on Jul 2, 2007 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be interested...

to see someone ask hmi about this commutation as opposed to the death penalty cases in Texas. As I recall, during the election, he said that he just followed the Pardon Board's recommendations as governor. I wonder who's recommendations he was following in this case...

by benmor78 on Jul 2, 2007 6:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yup

I had exactly the same thought.

I don't know the man can sleep at night after something like this.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 2, 2007 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Decision Made Largely Alone"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/02/AR2007070202060.html?hpid%3Dtopnews& amp;sub=AR

by mjh on Jul 3, 2007 6:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

bush

has never made a decision in his life on his own. very sad existence when you're the president of the united states and there are people constantly telling you what to do.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 3, 2007 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yep.

One picture is worth 1,000 denials.

by nirvana on Jul 3, 2007 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Words cannot express how shocked I am

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 2, 2007 6:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The only thing shocking about this

...is that it happened now instead of after the election.

by Mahon on Jul 2, 2007 6:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I was being fecetious

There's no way he was ever going to spend a day in jail. Bush is a lame duck and he knows his office isn't going to get any stronger...he doesn't car about the "PR" aspects of this move.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 2, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would he care about PR?

Anyone who would be really mad at him about letting Libby loose already hates him.

Most Americans don't know Scooter Libby from Scooter the Fox baseball cartoon. The only people who notice this sort of thing are the political sophisticates on both sides who aren't changing their minds based on what happened today.

by JBImaknee on Jul 2, 2007 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

...most people don't have an in depth understanding of the Libbey/Wilson case, but I think you're underestimating them a little. Most people do know a little something about it. My mother's the most politically apathetic person I've ever met and even she's vaguely familiar with the case.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 2, 2007 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely

disgraceful.

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 2, 2007 6:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Who does he think he is?

Bill Clinton?

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or Gerald Ford

by Taylor on Jul 2, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gerald Too?

Wouldn't be surprised. It's not a Political-Party-Thing is all I'm saying.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your handle

is fitting.

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 2, 2007 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When your bag is empty,

try name-calling. Nice.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well please continue

argue that this commutation happens all the time, and thus we should not be outraged. VP Chief of Staff obstructing an investigation of the White House in the outting of a US spy during a time of war with the obvious promise of a pardon by the president. Bush is an accessory to obstruction of justice in such a case, at a minimum.

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 2, 2007 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Be outraged

You should be. I never said different. Presidential pardons are always outrageous.
Regardless of the President.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that

actually is not true. there are many instances of a presidential pardon being needed, and many times sentences are too harsh and commutations are right. and i have no problem with christmas eve pardons/commutations.

however, this pardon with this justification is inexcusable and I really think Clinton's last minute pardons aren't as bad. apparently, to you its all the same.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 3, 2007 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about

Fourth of July Pardons? Or is that not as good of a holiday as Christmas?

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

classic.

One picture is worth 1,000 denials.

by nirvana on Jul 3, 2007 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pardon

Since he commuted the sentence can he stil full pardon him at the end of his Presidency or can you not act upon the same crime twice?

by brian mac on Jul 2, 2007 8:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's The Plan

I'm quite sure. He can do anything.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 2, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

he can pardon him later

by mjh on Jul 3, 2007 6:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gutsy, if Anything

You have to think that Bush has given up trying to win approval, and is just doing what he wants now.

That 28% approval rating is going to plummet.

"I don't think it's any kind of understatement to say that Rusty Greer is the greatest baseball player of all time."- my friend Kevin

by ghtd36 on Jul 2, 2007 9:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

100!

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a Bill Clinton fan...

so I'm biased, but I can clearly see the difference between this commute and Clinton's pardon.

My person favorite from the Clinton list.

Raymond Phillip Weaver U. S. Navy summary court-martial 1947 Theft of four pounds of butter

by cmkelly29 on Jul 2, 2007 11:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

In Hindsight...

It's funny, but my buddies in the military will be quick to tell you that theft is absolutely, 100% scorned, even if it's something like butter. They take that stuff really, really seriously.

"I don't think it's any kind of understatement to say that Rusty Greer is the greatest baseball player of all time."- my friend Kevin

by ghtd36 on Jul 2, 2007 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Military

I don't know which branch of service your buddies were in, but in the Navy, your line of reasoning would be off point.

Essentially, a U.S. Navy captain at sea is almost a monarch. He can dole out a tremendously wide variance of punishments. Two different guys could go to Captain's Mast for the same theft of butter. One could could be busted down to nothing and kicked out, after brig time, while another walks. I saw it happen with DUI's in Honolulu and San Diego all the time.

There are some exceptions, of course. Drugs for example. A C.O.'s hands are tied there, unlike the Army.

If this guy stole the butter in port, the discipline is a little more uniform. But still, the Chiefs' Mess can squash most fuckups, keeping it from reaching the Old Man, if you have an excellent reputation ("squared away" in Navyspeak).

Unless I misunderstand the metaphor, Justice isn't blind in the Navy.

Also, forgive the windbagginess, but isn't theft 100% scorned in the civilian world as well? It is for me.

A better analogy might be punctuality. That's a subject the military has absolutely no fucking sense of humor about...

If the Scoot stays mute, you must commute.

by Brian Thomas on Jul 3, 2007 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha

Brilliant signature.

I think that this guy must've done something with the butter that he shouldn't have, and it pissed an officer off. Why would someone steal four pounds of butter? I'm thinking practical joke gone awry.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 3, 2007 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Last Tango In Paris" Party?

He might have been ahead of his time.

Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh,

No one involved with that movie should be pardoned or commuted.

by t ball on Jul 3, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, I stole it from some blog

I guess I should say what my point about the butter thief was, since i led up to it but pulled a Costanza, stopping short.

Yes, the story with this sailor has 3 possibilities:

He was an all around shitbag, and this was his 4th or 5th documented offense.
His C.O. was a size large prick, and his Chief and Division Officer were spineless pussies (seen that happen w/ one of my guys).

The again, I just know how it is now, in the fleet. Even today, astonishingly and asaninely enough, the Air Force is sending a dude and a woman to the brig for a drunken, consensual 3-way:

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=6126

3. The most likely, a 1-2 combo.

It definitely wasn't because of 100% scorn for theft in the military. For example, our chaplain stole some ceramic pig mascot from a famous Singapore bar, and had to make a mad dash of it to the pier. That's right, the keeper of our impressionable souls (I loved that guy, God bless him).

Soon after, we kidnapped Porky, and the larcenous clergyman sent out pleas and admonishments over the P.A. to return his beloved stolen pig. We gigglingly sent him ransom videos with Porky duct-taped to a deck chair, blindfolded.

Eventually, that pig was float-tested...

If the Scoot stays mute, you must commute.

by Brian Thomas on Jul 3, 2007 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like this one

Larry Lee Duncan W. D. Okla. 1992 Altering an automobile odometer, 15 U.S.C. § 1984

by Brandon Wilson on Jul 3, 2007 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also..

The guy sentenced in 1891 for "behavior unbecoming an officer"

Could you imagine living your entire life in the Brig for slapping some dame's ass? At least these others have definitive crimes assigned to them...

by HypoLuxa on Jul 3, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd personally like to.....

Thank Dub-ya. Won a cool fiddy. Buddy of mine didn't believe me when I said Scooter would never serve a day. I said let's make it interesting.

by bdavison94 on Jul 3, 2007 12:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice bet !

It was inevitable, wasn't it?

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thats a sure bet

just one more corrupt move by the administration. I realized that voting for the president is one of the most pointless and purely ritual things you can do as an american. I mean your vote counts more for the gayest american phenominon ever (american idol) more than it does for the president. And i wouldnt be suprized if more people vote for that crap or at least put more thought into there vote than the president. You cant just vote a straight ticket. Which by the way is the worst idea ever.

by dubman on Jul 3, 2007 3:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh and what i was getting at

is of the 2 choices id rather not vote than somewhat support a corrupt asshole politician. I hate bush I hate gore I hate kerry there all scum.

by dubman on Jul 3, 2007 3:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Hillary Clinton was just on TV talking about "the rule of law" in regards to Libby.

Pretty sure that's in the dictionary under unintentional irony.

Corrupt Democrat governor sentenced

by Sharky on Jul 3, 2007 7:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Is that all you've got, Shark?

I for one am disappointed.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 3, 2007 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hillary Co-Wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?ex=1183608000&en=5f8130ba7641ad67&ei=5 070

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish you'd stop trying to OReilly us

You feign neutrality because you think it makes your opinion seem more authoritative.

It doesn't work for Bill, and you aren't pulling it off, either.

17 posts on a subject

+ constant negative Clinton references

= Bush apologist, or, at the very least, big right winger.

That's fine. Just be honest about it...

"Why wasn't I moved by Million Dollar Baby? Because I have no soul, that's why." The Dirkatron, movie hater

by Brian Thomas on Jul 3, 2007 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's O'Reilly?

I'm neither pro-Bush nor anti-Clinton. Read my posts...they are factual rebuttals only. Obviously, most posters here are pro-Clinton. I'm providing balance, but not defending Bush in any way. Can't recall constant negative Clinton references, either. Just pointing out hypocrisy.
Honest.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

providing balance

ok o'reilly

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 3, 2007 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

horseshit

buffering....

by SteveP on Jul 4, 2007 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

honestly

Bush is a criminal

by dubman on Jul 3, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can it ever be...

That whenever a controversy occurs we can leave the past out of it? You can tit for tat all day long and thus diminish the entire controversy at hand. It's not just a ploy for Republicans or Democrats but it seems that the Republicans in their righteous indignation at being called out love to crack open the history books more often.

But their history books don't go past Clinton's terms because they usually stop citing examples when it comes to Bush Sr and Reagan...

by HypoLuxa on Jul 3, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

History

This is a repost of the article written by Clinton. Notice the "excessive penalty" language, his righteous indignation, AND his liberal use of historical references.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?ex=1183608000&en=5f8130ba7641ad67&ei=5 070

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

like I said...

it happens in both parties, but thanks for reposting the that article to prove my point.

by HypoLuxa on Jul 3, 2007 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree, HypoLuxa

That's all I've been trying to point out, but apparently nobody wants to hear it...easier to bash Bush, I guess.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for posting that

I'd never read that letter before. I thought he made a pretty good case for himself.

I don't have a problem with any of his pardons simply because I don't know much about the particular cases.

Libby deserved jail time. The special prosecutor said that he alone was the reason the Plame investigation could not move forward.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 3, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hillary

She's going to have to sit there and keep her mouth shut.

It is ironic to me, though, that Rudy Giuliani is on board with this.

He was the guy who prosecuted Marc Rich, and he ripped Bill for pardoning him.

And you know who represented Marc Rich?

Scooter Libby.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 3, 2007 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

very true

Support for the Libby commutation by Giuliani or Thomson or McCain, etc completely neutralizes a very salient criticism that could have been used against Hillary regarding Clinton's questionable pardons.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 3, 2007 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why is it automatically assumed

that those who think what Bush did was wrong were in favour of Clinton's pardons?

Also, there seems to be a disconnect in righty thinking here - if Clinton was a horrible president, then why do they say, "Clinton did it too!" in order to defend Bush?

by Mahon on Jul 3, 2007 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Bipartisan gasp

I was under the impression that Clinton's pardons were egregious but then I saw this on CNN:

Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Pardons -- 863
Commutations -- 60

Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969)
Pardons -- 960
Commutations -- 226

those are less than 8 years. I can't imagine someone like LBJ pardoning anybody.

Also, shouldn't Carter have a much bigger number for pardoning the draft dodgers.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 3, 2007 12:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i'm not surprised...all of them do it

while many of you will claim that this is much more egregious due to the nature of the crime, I'd probably disagree since it was a) victimless and b) the Wilsons have benefitted from it immensely.

And while I'm sure a lot of you will point to the grander view that this was an effort to silence a critic of the war (which is valid), do you honestly think that if Joe Wilson had not been "discredited" that the war would have been avoided?

It's not as if Scooter Libby's actions have killed 3000 soldiers.

What I find egregious about is that Bush is not holding himself/his staff accountable when he sets up investigations himself. Then again...I'm not sure that I expect much more from someone with that much power.

by willamos2 on Jul 3, 2007 12:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

the war

This incident was one part of a coordinated effort to sow doubt about critics of the war and create the impression that Iraq had or was actively trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction. There were many facets of that strategy (use of the Defense Intelligence Agency to push their agenda, discrediting Hans Blix and the IAEA, massaging and cherry-picking evidence from the CIA, Colin Powell's laughable UN testimony). Taken together, these activities convinced the public and Congress that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat who possessed WMD, which he did not. So yeah, I kind of do blame Scooter Libby for the Iraq War. He wasn't alone, in fact he was probably the fall-guy, which is why Bush hooked him up with this commutation. But, he was certainly a key player.

loves me some "loves me some"

by trza on Jul 3, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Victimless

Read this article in full: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/28/60minutes/main994753.shtml

I bet almost everyone Valerie Plame had contact with was interrogated, and some were probably incarcerated, tortured, and/or killed. You don't out CIA field agents.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Jul 3, 2007 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't cool

Good article, Dustin. It wasn't victimless, it was a bad thing to do, and it was politically-driven.

JDB

by Clueless on Jul 3, 2007 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Victimless?

I would have to say that every American citizen becomes a victim, of sorts, in this case. I would say it qualifies as tampering with National Security.

by cmkelly29 on Jul 5, 2007 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs