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The newest Rosenthal stuff

The latest from Ken Rosenthal:

The game is now, "Can you top this?"

The Braves, according to major-league sources, have made the Rangers a whopper of an offer for first baseman Mark Teixeira. The Angels, sources say, also have submitted a substantial bid.

From the Braves, the Rangers would receive three highly regarded young players -- catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Class AA left-hander Matt Harrison and Class A shortstop Elvis Andrus -- while giving up only Teixeira.

The Rangers want a better pitching prospect than Harrison, a source says. But at a time when teams are reluctant to trade inexpensive prospects for high-priced veterans, the proposed deal would be a coup for Rangers general manager Jon Daniels.

The Angels, meanwhile, are offering two players for Teixeira, according to sources. The Rangers want a third piece added -- something the Angels probably won't do unless they get a second player back.

First baseman Casey Kotchman is part of the Angels' proposal. The other player is a pitcher, most likely left-hander Joe Saunders, but possibly Class AAA right-hander Ervin Santana. The Rangers also want a top prospect, perhaps Class AAA third baseman Brandon Wood.

Kotchman and Saunders are more established than any of the players the Braves are offering. However, Kotchman's upside might not be as high as the switch-hitting Saltalamacchia's. And the Rangers would require the Angels to pay a higher price because they play in the same division.

The Dodgers remain the wild card in the Teixeira sweepstakes. They proposed first baseman James Loney, outfielder Andre Ethier and Class AAA right-hander John Meloan for Teixeira and right-handed reliever Joaquin Benoit, according to one source.

However, the fragile state of the Dodgers' rotation could force them to focus solely on pitching, and the Rangers are insisting that they include Class A left-hander Clayton Kershaw, a Dallas native, in a Teixeira deal.

A few thoughts:

  1.  The language on the Dodger deal is interesting..."proposed" is different from "offered".  The first suggests, "If we were to make this offer, would you take it?"  The second is, "Here's what we are willing to do."  Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but I'm wondering if the Dodger package is actually on the table, or if it has just been floated to see if that is something Daniels would accept.
  2.  Kotchman and Saunders wouldn't do it for me.  Both of those guys are relatively low-ceiling players.  I'd want Adenhart, or possibly Wood (who I'm not as high on as a lot of people), before I'd really consider that, considering what other offers are out there.
  3.  I wonder if the Rangers are going to offer former Brave prospect Max Ramirez back to Atlanta, with Teixeira, to get an upgrade over Harrison.
  4.  I don't like Ethier that much.  Seems like a tweener.  And the Dodger offer -- Loney, Ethier and Meloan -- is lacking in the big-time, high-ceiling guy that it seems Daniels wants (like Saltalamacchia, Adenhart, or Kershaw would be).
  5.  I have to wonder if we aren't going to end up seeing a Clay Buchholz/Jacoby Ellsbury on the tabble before this is all said and done.  Particularly if the Yanks get within 5.5 games of Boston before the deadline.

0 recs | Comment 49 comments

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once again
Im a lot higher on Ethier/Loney than Salty/Elvis.

by kumar75150 on Jul 27, 2007 5:06 PM CDT   0 recs

because
they have actually shown something at the major league level and a guy that is 5 years away from contributing (Elvis) has a higher chance of being a complete failure.

by kumar75150 on Jul 27, 2007 5:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

When was
Elvis Andrus the focal piece of this deal?

Saltalamacchia is the best prospect in all these packagaes. Elvis Andrus has much more value because he has the upside tag. If he develops, he can be fantastic, if not, you can trade him when he gets to AA.

It's ridiculous to determine the value of prospects based solely on "what have they done in the majors".

by FirebatM3 on Jul 27, 2007 5:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

who said anything about
Andrus being the focal part of this deal?

by kumar75150 on Jul 27, 2007 7:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
But the Mach 5 and Andrus have a higher chance than Loney and Ethier of being stars.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 6:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well
It depends on the Rangers' valuation of the guys.  Ive seen enough guys with tools not develop into anything.  Ruben Mateo, Laynce Nix, Nelson Cruz, etc.

If you trade Laird and commit to Salty at catcher, then Im on board with the Atlanta deal.

by kumar75150 on Jul 27, 2007 7:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

fwiw
Mateo doesn't really belong in that group of guys who never made it.

He was on his way to being truly special before that injury.

Gas, brake, honk. Gas, brake, honk. Honk, honk, punch. Gas, gas, gas.

by thedirkatron on Jul 27, 2007 7:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Mateo/BA
He was ranked the #6 prospect in all of baseball on BA's 2000 Top 100 list, #9 on the 1999 list, and #17 on the 1998 list. Cruz never made a Top 100, and Nix was #83 in 2003.

FWIW, the only Rangers to ever rank higher than Mateo on a BA Top 100 were Tex (#1, 2003), Blalock (#3, 2002), and Juan Gone (#4, 1990). Even Pudge never got higher than #7, which he did in 1992. Tex is the only other Ranger besides Mateo to crack the Top 10 twice- he was #10 in 2002.

Kurt Miller (#14 in 1992 and #11 in 1993) and Carlos Pena (#11, 2001) are the only other Ranger prospects to crack the top 20 on BA's list. Miller and Coco Cordero are the only two pitchers to even break the top 30, though Colby Lewis just missed in 2003.

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Jul 27, 2007 8:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And yet...
...if the Rangers can get Kershaw or Adenhart in the Teixeira deal, the Rangers will likely have 2 top 30 prospects this offseason...

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 8:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Definitely
Hurley is #19 on on the BA mid-season top 25 list. Adenhart is #20. Kershaw is #6.

That'll be pretty sweet to have two prospects ranked that highly, if it happens.

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Jul 27, 2007 10:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good God
Go Yankees?
Are you wearing a grocery bag? I have misplaced my pants.

by i hit straight ball very much on Jul 27, 2007 5:07 PM CDT   0 recs

Normally
I would cuss you out for saying go Spankees, but in its context today, it made me laugh.

by fsujon on Jul 27, 2007 5:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is why...
this season has been so frustrating.  I can't root for the Yankees, but it would be better for my Rangers if the Yankees didn't lose a bunch.

Such a moral dilemma: Root for Yankees and the Rangers do better or root against the Yankees and it possibly be worse?

by GhettoBear04 on Jul 27, 2007 8:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Waiting to long?
I completely get that you have to get teams to bid against each other, but I think JD is going to have to get this done before Tuesday.  If you keep bouncing back and forth between teams eventually someone's going to get upset that they're just being used and drop out of the bidding.

by nrrh on Jul 27, 2007 5:11 PM CDT   0 recs

thats my concern
that atlanta is going to decide their offer has been on the table long enough and decide they are out.
Then again, the buzz around the braves is the players there are already hyped that they may be getting tex, so if the braves withdraw from the bidding that won't be good for clubhouse morale.
Spider pig, Spider pig does whatever a spider pig does

by rentz on Jul 27, 2007 5:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

maybe
Salty will bake them all cookies
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Jul 27, 2007 5:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

are you saying
if this was tuesday, 2:50 pm and the atlanta/LAD offers were final and on the table, you would take the atlanta one?

really?

by DSheppard on Jul 27, 2007 5:13 PM CDT   0 recs

I don't know
I think, though, that if you had Elvis Andrus, you could turn him into an Ethier-type player (via trade) without too much problem.

Salt/Andrus > Loney/Ethier, I think.

I guess it is a question of whether you want the high-upside guys, or the safe bets.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 5:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

dodgers
I think Loney and saltalamacchia (probably spelled wrong) are pretty interchangeable.  Loney I believe is a more solid player, while salty has much higher power bat upside. I guess i see loney as a 25hr guy while i see salty as a 30+ hr guy eventually.

I was really high on ethier when he was in the texas league in the A's system but he hasn't impressed me much since being in the big leagues.

I like meloan much better than harrison, not sure i like him enough over harrison to say no to the braves if I'm jd though.

Spider pig, Spider pig does whatever a spider pig does

by rentz on Jul 27, 2007 5:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ethier
17 months younger than Hank Blalock.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 5:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

with a higher career OPS
100 (blalock) vs. 113 (ethier)
Me and Billy the Kid never got along. I didn't like the way he cocked his hat and he wore his gun all wrong.

by tricer on Jul 27, 2007 9:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and
a higher slugging pct. (.465 to .457), and that is not taking into account ballpark factors.
Me and Billy the Kid never got along. I didn't like the way he cocked his hat and he wore his gun all wrong.

by tricer on Jul 27, 2007 9:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I would
I worry much more about injury issues than most, and I worry about a 1B that's never hit more than 11 HRs in a minor-league season. If the choice was between a player whose cieling is John Olerud vs. a player whose cieling is Lance Berkman, I'd take the latter.

by FirebatM3 on Jul 27, 2007 5:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ok
ive been quickly convinced the LAD offer isnt that much better than the braves offer.

but id still take it first.

by DSheppard on Jul 27, 2007 5:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dodger offer
before the season started. BA has Adenhart ranked 34, Salty 36, and Loney 44. I think that type of range is very interchangeable and the fact if Slaty was going to move to 1st that he would drop considerably.  I would think that Loney would be considered a 'big-time, high ceiling guy', right?

The other part of the trade, Meloan and Ethier...they're better than Elvis and Harrison.

by Longhorn on Jul 27, 2007 5:17 PM CDT   0 recs

Loney
I don't see him as a high-ceiling guy.

More like Adrian Gonzalez...good chance of being a solid player, but not a star.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 5:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Victor Martinez?
Maybe Lance Berkman if all the stars are aligned.

by FirebatM3 on Jul 27, 2007 5:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
Sounds about right, on the upside.

Middle range more like Mike Sweeney, low-end is...I don't know, Craig Wilson?

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 5:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Berkman
mashed in the minors, every stop. Salty, notsomuch.

by Longhorn on Jul 27, 2007 5:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Berkman
was 21 when he started playing the minors, Salty? Not so much.

by FirebatM3 on Jul 27, 2007 5:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Loney
if you consider .300 hitting, 25hr first baseman high ceiling, then yah Loney's high ceiling.

I like Loney a lot, but I hesitate to say he's the best player on the board right now.

Gas, brake, honk. Gas, brake, honk. Honk, honk, punch. Gas, gas, gas.

by thedirkatron on Jul 27, 2007 5:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And...
...he's a .300 hitting first baseman who doesn't draw a ton of walks, so he's not going to be a guy like Olerud who gives you .400+ OBPs to make up for the middling power.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 5:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That hardly matters
his OBP/SLG are BA dependent. I don't think he'll be nearly as good a player as Saltalamacchia.

by FirebatM3 on Jul 27, 2007 5:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

exactly
Loney is in the adrian gonzalez mold. good glove, medium power and hits for average. salty has a much higher ceiling (though loney may be a safer pick )
Spider pig, Spider pig does whatever a spider pig does

by rentz on Jul 27, 2007 5:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That Boston offer
would be super freaking sweet.

Buchholz is a freaking STUD.

Gas, brake, honk. Gas, brake, honk. Honk, honk, punch. Gas, gas, gas.

by thedirkatron on Jul 27, 2007 5:18 PM CDT   0 recs

I think JD
will be making a final call to the Yankess and Red Sox before he pulls the trigger on a Teixeira deal.

by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2007 5:20 PM CDT   0 recs

AJM
what's up with the text box at the top of the homepage? I just typed "JD is pretty good"; but it didn't save...

by Longhorn on Jul 27, 2007 5:36 PM CDT   0 recs

Adam
#3 I don't really see how the Braves have much of a pitching upgrade over Harrison to deal. Is JoJo really that much better?

#4 Loney, Ethier, Meloan. If you substituted Kemp for AE, wouldn't that easily be the best deal? I think it would.

Except, "First baseman Casey Kotchman is part of the Angels' proposal. The other player is a pitcher, most likely left-hander Joe Saunders, but possibly Class AAA right-hander Ervin Santana. The Rangers also want a top prospect, perhaps Class AAA third baseman Brandon Wood."

Kotch, Santana, and Wood. 3 guys who used to be on the HOF fast track, supposedly. That wouldn't be a bad haul, either.

Obviously, neither of those deal are on the table like the Braves offer apparently is, but if they were, which seems less and less unlikely, I'd have to conclude they be mo mo better than Schuerlholz's.

I will not get my comeuppance!

by Brian Thomas on Jul 27, 2007 5:56 PM CDT   0 recs

Yeah
#3 -- I agree, don't know how much they can do to improve on that.

#4 -- On Kemp, sure, but I don't see that happening.

I don't want Santana, so a Kotchman, Wood, Santana package doesn't make me that excited.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2007 6:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

West coast hearings
I was listening to the Angels flagship station (ESPN 710), and they talked to Jayson Stark about Tex.  Then they went to the calls.  

Now, read as much into this as you like, and these are just the normal afternoon show hacks, but here was their question:

"It is going to take Kotchman, Saunders and either Wood or Adenhart to get this deal done.  Do you do it?  And does Stoneman do it?"

Now, the prevailing winds from Stark and the hosts is that Stoneman actually is planning on making a splash, and that everyone knows that he HAS to acquire someone, otherwise the Angels are dead come playoff time.

Secondly, both hosts and every fan (but one) calling in were for that trade.  Without much hesitation.  Some were suggesting giving up more.  

I don't know what that is worth - but in this fight for LA that Arte Moreno has started - the fans are demanding that Stoneman play ball...

by JBImaknee on Jul 27, 2007 6:17 PM CDT   0 recs

very interesting
if Kotchman, Saunders, and Adenhart were to be offered - we have a winner.

Unless, of course, Bucholz or Hughes enters the discussion.

Me and Billy the Kid never got along. I didn't like the way he cocked his hat and he wore his gun all wrong.

by tricer on Jul 27, 2007 8:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Loney
I think most people around here including, Morris, are grossly underrating Loney's upside.

Because he hasn't hit for extraordinary power in the minors means he won't develop 30+ home run potential down the road?

And as far as .400 OBP goes, his BB and SO ratios show he has a pretty good eye at a relatively young age.  Certainly not out of the realm of possibility to think his walks will improve.

Loney is equal to the prospect of Salty right now and while Salty may have a tad more upside (if he stays at catcher), noone can say for sure right now who will end up the better player.

If the Rangers can throw Benoit into the deal to get Kershaw, then the Rangers need to do that deal in a heartbeat over an Braves scenario.  Maybe even throw Gagne in and try to get Kemp back from the Dodgers.

Time to get creative with the Dodgers.  They have the most talent available and will give the Rangers best overall package in my opinion.

Loney comparables by PECOTA besides Gonzalez also include Morneau (he's got some pop I hear), Aramis Ramirez, Garrett Atkins, and Brad Fullmer.  He might be a better fielder than all of those guys as well.

 

by jctrampe on Jul 27, 2007 8:47 PM CDT   0 recs

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