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Keep on Trying, Barry.

Let's allow bygones to be bygones. There's a reason that I hadn't addressed the home run debacle until it was absolutely necessary- other than fervently praying that Barry Bonds would blow out his knee playing a game of pickup street hockey. The situation's just too complicated. The extenuating circumstances involved in this whole scenario are too numerous to list, and I'm sure you've heard them all reiterated ad naueseum.
What's done is done. Henry Aaron can no longer be officially associated with the home run crown, and It's a damn shame.
But all of the flaxseed oil in the world, all the brilliant chemists in San Fransisco, and every strength trainer lodging in Federal Correctional Facilities is insufficient to bring Barry Bonds a title just as respectable, just as admirable, and even more impactful than the one he now holds.
2297.Get used to seeing this number at the top of the list, folks. Henry Aaron played 23 major league seasons, and was the very embodiment of integrity, of passion, of perseverance.
And a tremendous hitter in every sense of the word. And that collection of numerals is his career RBI total, a number which Bonds cannot hope to approach.
A home run is a wonderful thing. With one swing of the bat a player can completely change the current of a game. The inherent greatness, of course, of the mightiest of blasts is the fact that not only the hitter but everyone who may have occupied the basepaths at the time of the shot comes around on the play.
But how is one to gauge the player's run production as a whole?
OK, that was a rhetorical. We all know the answer. But I'll repeat it anyway, just in case Alfonso Soriano is wondering what it is that's missing from his stat sheet. We call them 'Runs Batted In'.
See, this is the thing. Certain players, like the aforementioned once-reluctant Left Fielder, put up very gaudy longball numbers but manage to steer their teams mysteriously clear of the win column. Why? They launch what we like to call meaningless home runs. Solo shots, Drives when the game's outcome is preordained. And they fail to bring runners in any other way. Michael Young, for instance, has had two guys named Clarence from the guitar store hitting in front of him all season long. In addition, he's hit only five home runs throughout the entirety of this year. How many RBI is he on pace for? 90. Because the man knows when he needs to hit, when is team truly needs him to punch out another liner to left field. And he comes through in those desperate situations.
Barry Bonds, in contrast has 22 home runs and a league-leading on-base+slugging percentage (OPS, for baseball geeks like me) of 1.064. And how many runs is the famed slugger on pace to drive in?
Try 75.
There's a reason that people like to perpetually launch insults at Barry, while simply oozing with respect and adulation for Hank Aaron. And it has nothing to do with hat size or media receptivity.Aaron was simply a better player.
If you're not convinced by the plain RBI numbers, compare playoff statistics. Henry Aaron has a world series ring. He has a .363 postseason average, with 6 home runs, 16 RBI, and a .705 slugging percentage in 17 games.
One need only look at one stat to gauge our chemically augmented friend's struggles in prime time. Batting average in 48 postseason matches: .245.
The man of cream is hitting below .250 in that most crucial of situations. So for all my kin, all ye like minded, all who look beyond the abstract and waste hours a day on baseballreference.com, Pay heed. For we no longer need to resort to the overused steroid arguement.
2296, people. A record that will stand a little while longer.
And the elusive world series ring? True champions only, Barry. End of the line.

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terrible post
and what do you set the mendoza line at?

and i guess you don't hold ted williams in high esteem

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Aug 8, 2007 1:18 PM CDT   0 recs

World Series rings
I hate this argument.

Lots of great players never won a championship.  This isn't basketball or even football, where a great player should win a Ring because they can carry their team.  In baseball more than any other sport, teams cannot be carried by one man or even a couple.  

Some other overrated players by that argument: Ted Williams never won a ring.  I suppose he isn't a true champion.  I guess that knocks the best pure hitter ever down a few levels in your eyes?  Ernie Banks?  No Ring.  Tony Gwynn?  Nope.  Alex Rodriguez?  No.  

by JBImaknee on Aug 8, 2007 1:18 PM CDT   0 recs

Yep
It's not like they're the general managers.  They're just really good players for Christ's sake.
You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Aug 8, 2007 11:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry
i can't just pick 2 things that i didn't like about it when the whole argument has serious flaws:

Bonds OPS

RISP: 1119
2 outs, RISP: 1040
Late and Close: 994
Tie Game: 1053
Within 1 run: 1065

Postseason: 936

The fact that he doesn't have the RBI record is a product of apparently really bad luck.  Anyway, he'd have it if he played 4 more years, which he could in the American League if he wanted.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Aug 8, 2007 1:25 PM CDT   0 recs

for the rbi's
see my poster later on.

bonds actually drove in runs more frequently than aaron (fewer ab's per rbi)

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Aug 9, 2007 3:13 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ugh
So, essentially, your premise is that RBI's and playoff wins are the most accurate statistics in determining a player's greatness.

Normally, i'd think that was a joke, but given the flowery, half-cute "uber-verbosity" of your diary, I doubt it.

And FYI: The Mendoza line is .200.

I will not get my comeuppance!

by Brian Thomas on Aug 8, 2007 2:09 PM CDT   0 recs

This is one of the dumbest threads i have ever...
read...

Bonds RC/27 = 9.92
Aaron RC/27 = 7.65

Bonds career OPS+ = 182
Aaron career OPS+ = 155

by jasun on Aug 8, 2007 2:31 PM CDT   0 recs

Also...
Aaron's 162 game RBI avg = 113
Barry's 162 game RBI avg = 108

by jasun on Aug 8, 2007 2:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that only proves
that Aaron had slightly more competent teammates than Bonds.
mmmmmm...64 slices of American cheese...

by t ball on Aug 8, 2007 3:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What's Barry's
Pre-2000 RC/27 and OPS?

by DJCahill on Aug 8, 2007 3:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ha.
i thought we were okay with the fact that he juiced.

by jasun on Aug 8, 2007 3:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well,
I think its fair to see the comparison.

Personally, I think that players that weren't juicing when they weren't testing weren't good team players.

by DJCahill on Aug 8, 2007 3:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol
Personally, I think that players that weren't juicing when they weren't testing weren't good team players.

Excellent point, Dan

by Brian Hayes on Aug 8, 2007 3:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

oh, i thought you were just
giving me shit for the #s i used...

ley me see if i can calculate it real quick

by jasun on Aug 8, 2007 3:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

pre-2000
I can't find the exact number, but I believe I saw where his pre-2000 numbers were over 8.5... I'll keep digging.

by Brandon Wilson on Aug 8, 2007 3:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's pointless to even try to compare Bonds
with Ruth, Mays, Aaron.

Different eras with thousands of differences in the game - some major, some minor.

Barry's a perennial All-Star caliber and would have been a HOF candidate in my book if he stayed off the juice.  But he's not Aaron, Ruth or Mays.  They are legends.

by isaacbrock on Aug 8, 2007 2:53 PM CDT   0 recs

so...
if not Bonds, who are the "legends" of this generation???

by Brandon Wilson on Aug 8, 2007 3:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not many.
Barry's legendary status is in question due to the admittance to taking illegal enhancers, etc.  Certainly a player with his numbers now would be legendary, but there's no telling what his actual numbers would've been if he'd played fair.

Current legends?  Clemens, Pudge, Ichiro, Jeter, A-Rod, Mariano Rivera, and some others.

Keep in mind that legendary status isn't just in the numbers in my opinion. And if any of the above are proven to have used, their status as legends is gone in my book too.

by isaacbrock on Aug 8, 2007 3:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Pretty naive statement
  1. That you assume that none of those players you listed took illegal enhancers. Take Pudge for example. Who didn't juice on the rangers at that time? Raffy tested positive, even Hicks admitted Juan was on the juice and it was pretty obvious, and certainly Pudge could have been on them especially since he so ironically dropped 30 pounds the offseason they started testing for steroids. Even Clemens has been accused by some.
  2. That you consider Pudge, Ichiro, Jeter bigger legends then Bonds. Steroids or no steroids, Bonds has always been the better player unless you think he's been taking the juice since his rookie season or that the juice inflated his hr totals by like 250 hrs.

by slimshadty12 on Aug 8, 2007 5:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

2 New HOFs
Gwynn and Ripkin could be considered legends, and a majority of their careers coincided with Bonds.
Wait til the year after next!

by chadero on Aug 8, 2007 5:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Love 'em
but I consider the Ripken and Gwynn careers over before the real steroid generation... Let's talk about the players that have played at least 1/2 of their career or more after '97.

To me, Bonds is far and away the best player of that generation.

by Brandon Wilson on Aug 8, 2007 7:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

small sample size?
Ever heard of it?

Also, Barry can't really help it that his teammates have by and large sucked and he hasn't gotten to play in more postseasons.

I think you may be trying to level everyone with this crazy post, but if not, it's one of the worst things I've ever read.

 

by Brian Hayes on Aug 8, 2007 2:59 PM CDT   0 recs

Yeesh
So for all my kin, all ye like minded, all who look beyond the abstract and waste hours a day on baseballreference.com, Pay heed.

I had to read Chaucer in high school.  I don't want to re-live it.

by Lucas on Aug 8, 2007 3:34 PM CDT   0 recs

knocking him for his rbi total
your assessment of barry's rbi's are WAY off buster.

do you forget how many walks he has this year?

in his career?

as far as career total, he was a leadoff hitter for the first 4 seasons of his career...before his walks got out of control.

barry bonds
rbi 1981
ab 9774
ab per rbi 4.934

hank aaron
rbi 2297
ab 12364
ab per rbi 5.38

there you have it.  bonds drives in runs more often than aaron did.

as far as post season batting?
yeah bonds did a poor job.  but he did great in his world series hitting .471 with 4 homers.  in all he hit 8 homers that season.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Aug 8, 2007 4:02 PM CDT   0 recs

I would've commented
Being in China and sleeping during the Texas daylight hours, I miss some of these posts.

I would have commented on the flaws in this post, but at this point I just feel sorry for RangersFarmHand after the grilling he has already received from...well...everyone.

by rangeressary on Aug 8, 2007 8:37 PM CDT   0 recs

I actually had some retorts
At some point, but after this overwhelmingly negative response I'm going to chalk my arguement down as a defeat and leave it at that.
I'd never begrudge Bonds the statement that he's a great player, and a hall of famer Cream, clear, whatever. The man likely would have hit 600 home runs without any sort of help, and when you factor in his inhuman plate discipline he's put together an incredible career.
I had one point, really: That Bonds wasn't the run producer that the true greats were. He's likely top 5 all time, but not top 2 or 3.
sportsdeals.blogspot.com

by BudLight on Aug 8, 2007 9:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Umm, true greats?
Top 5 isn't a true great?  Out of the thousands of ballplayers, top 5 wouldn't make someone truly great?  I'd say anyone in at least the top 100 should probably be considered truly great.
mmmmmm...64 slices of American cheese...

by t ball on Aug 8, 2007 9:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It just depends
On your definition of the term. If you're Norm, you call 50 different division 2 linebacker 'great' or 'terrific'. It's very variable.
And while as an individual he's far more deserving of a world series than a guy like Gabe Kapler, my point was that the Aaron (and others like Ruth or Gehrig) were designated as superstars who absolutely carried their teams. Bonds has carried the same title, but doesn't have the jewelry.
sportsdeals.blogspot.com

by BudLight on Aug 8, 2007 9:45 PM CDT   0 recs

Well,
the Giants simply do not even make the playoffs without Bonds the year they lost to the Angels in the WS.  And If I say that out of the many, many thousands of players that have played baseball in the last 100 years, 100 of them are truly great, I don't think you can invoke the hyperbole of Hitzges on me.
mmmmmm...64 slices of American cheese...

by t ball on Aug 8, 2007 9:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Furthermore
The Yankees had several very good players on those 1920s team, so your basically saying that Bonds is not as great as Ruth because he didn't choose his teammates as well.  I guess Ernie Banks wasn't one of the greats either.
mmmmmm...64 slices of American cheese...

by t ball on Aug 8, 2007 9:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you know
if you had just said that instead of the filling your diary with needless flowery pretentious language, you probably would have gotten a better response/dialogue than what you did get.

even reading your diary now, it's hard to tell whether you just wanted to make a declaration as much as you wanted to invite discussion.  If it was the former, pretty lame reason to make a diary.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Aug 9, 2007 10:25 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Again,
Great is a term with a constantly shifting definition. Bonds is top 5, and that's great in almost any classification. But not in comparison with Aaron or Ruth. The Babe had immense quality surrounding him, but as an individual he was still astonishing.
sportsdeals.blogspot.com

by BudLight on Aug 8, 2007 10:01 PM CDT   0 recs

aaron is top 2 or 3 of all time?
 can you run down your top 5 for me please?

by jasun on Aug 8, 2007 11:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

For lack of a better place to put this
(I don't want to start another Bonds diary)

Did anyone catch the "Best Damn Barry Bonds Exclusive" or whatever it was called?

The guy just didn't seem like a jerk to me.  I'm aware of all the anecdotes but he seemed pretty likable in that particular interview, and it didn't seem sincere, either.  He had a lot of good things to say about lots of people, and said that Alex Rodriguez would probably break his record.  He said he'd be there cheering him on.  "That's what it's all about" or something like that.  Paraphrasing again, "I'm very proud of my accomplishments but I'm proud of others' too".

I think Barry Bonds is one of the most misunderstood personalities of our time.  Not just in the Baseball world, but the world at large.

You never hear about his charity work in the bay area.  The guy does a LOT for local schools but he and his minions don't call a bunch of attention to it (I presume because he doesn't want to).  

I don't know.  Yeah, he did steroids.  Yeah, he doesn't like reporters.  But keep it in perspective...he's not maniac like Albert Belle or anything.  

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Aug 9, 2007 12:06 AM CDT   0 recs

I hope that someday
I can teach my daughter to taunt pitchers with chicken motions for not throwing me good strikes to hit. :)

by zywica on Aug 9, 2007 12:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

whoa
Did Bonds really do that?
You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Aug 9, 2007 7:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No,
Bonds has never taught Zywica's daughter.
mmmmmm...64 slices of American cheese...

by t ball on Aug 9, 2007 8:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed
It's tough to not be flippant, sarcastic, and unembraceable when ESPN is employing the likes of Pedro Gomez to hound your ass on a daily basis.

Pedro Gomez is wearing out ESPN's already tired coverage of baseball and sports in general. The man is overtly striving for sensationalism and his magic word: "controversy!"

Wouldn't mind if retreads like him got struck by a meteor or two, along with Jemele Hill and the "award-winning journalist" Scoop Jackson, both of espn.com.

"Really we should put Benoit in the rotation, he'd be Johann [sic] Santana but for 30 million less." - Sharky, Aug. 8 2007

by Chase Irwin on Aug 9, 2007 12:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I have to add something....
...in the interest of full disclosure.

There are two things I dislike about Barry Bonds:

  1. He admires his home runs.
  2. He wears all that plastic on his arm.
If I were a pitcher, I'd bean him on account of #1 but it wouldn't do any good on account of #2.  

Anyway, about the admiring his homers, that's the biggest reason I've always disliked Sooser.  I'm not sure why I haven't come to the same conclusion on Bonds.

You're just a very misguided individual, Dustin. -- Sharky

by Dustin on Aug 9, 2007 7:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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