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Debunking the Sammy Sosa, HOFer myth -- Part 2

Following up on Part 1 of our examination of the Sammy Sosa Hall of Fame case, we have this afternoon Part 2, comparing Sosa to the right fielders who have been voted into the Hall by the BBWAA.

Star-divide

There are 12 major league right fielders who have been voted into the Hall of Fame by the BBWAA. They are:

Hank Aaron
Roberto Clemente
Tony Gwynn
Harry Heilmann
Reggie Jackson
Al Kaline
Willie Keeler
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Babe Ruth
Paul Waner
Dave Winfield

So...let's look at how Sosa stacks up with these 12 HOF right fielders in career EQA, OPS, OPS+, and WARP3, along with their total major league games:

Name EQA EQA Rank OPS OPS Rank OPS+ OPS+ Rank WARP3 WARP3 Rank Games
Aaron .326 2 929 4 155 t2 210.7 2 3298
Clemente .302 9 834 11 130 10 126.8 7 2433
Gwynn .307 t6 847 9 132 9 124.1 10 2440
Heilmann .311 5 930 3 148 5 103.4 13 2148
Jackson .306 8 846 10 139 6 124.6 9 2820
Kaline .299 11 856 8 134 t7 126.3 8 2834
Keeler .290 13 803 13 127 13 109.2 11 2123
Ott .330 2 947 2 155 t2 179.7 3 2730
Robinson .324 4 926 5 154 4 164.8 4 2808
Ruth .368 1 1164 1 207 1 237.6 1 2503
Sosa .294 12 878 6 128 12 105.7 12 2344
Waner .307 t7 877 7 134 t7 128.7 6 2549
Winfield .301 10 828 12 129 11 131.3 5 2973

It is only in the one non-contextual category -- raw OPS -- that Sosa's ranking is respectable. He's next-to-last in EQA, OPS+ and WARP3, all stats that adjust for league, park and era impact.

Looking at WARP3, Sosa is well behind almost every other player, clumped at the bottom with Heilmann and Keeler. However, if you look at WARP3 on a per 162 game basis, Heilmann has a .5 WARP per 162 edge on Sosa, and Keeler has a full WARP per 162 edge on Sosa.

On a WARP rate basis, Sosa is in the bottom group with Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, and Dave Winfield, with a slight (.15 per 162 or less) edge on each of the three. This, however, is a result of Jackson, Kaline and Winfield hanging around as role players well after their primes. Sosa, unlike the other three, does not appear capable of hanging around into his early 40s.

This is what makes the games played category so revealing...Sosa has played fewer games than most of the rest of the right fielders on this list, with a correspondingly lower WARP3. However, a star player whose career ends relatively early -- who doesn't have a "long tail" to his career, where he hangs around during his decline phase -- should have a higher EQA and OPS+. The fact that Sosa is near the bottom in each category suggests that he isn't a player, like Heilmann, who was great in his prime but retired early, or a player, like Winfield, who was great in his prime but was able to hang around for years after he started his decline phase. Rather, it suggests that he wasn't as great as the rest of the players on this list.

Of the 13 right fielders looked at here -- the 12 BBWAA HOF selections, and Sosa -- the bottom of the list is clearly Sosa and Keeler, the only 19th century player to make this cut.

This sort of exercise can, however, understate single-season dominance...let's compare the number of top-5 and top-10 finishes Sosa had with these other right fielders:

Name MVP-5 MVP-10 OBP-5 OBP-10 SLG-5 SLG-10 OPS-5 OPS-10 OPS+-5 OPS+-10
Aaron 8 13 7 11 15 19 15 19 13 18
Clemente 4 8 2 6 2 6 3 8 2 10
Gwynn 1 7 6 10 0 2 2 6 2 7
Heilmann 4 5 7 8 6 12 7 10 7 12
Jackson 5 7 2 5 8 12 6 10 7 11
Kaline 4 8 7 9 5 9 5 11 5 9
Keeler N/A N/A 3 8 1 5 2 5 2 6
Ott 3 6 11 16 12 16 13 18 14 18
Robinson 5 9 11 16 11 16 12 15 14 16
Ruth 2 3 16 16 15 16 16 16 16 16
Sosa 2 7 1 1 4 7 3 5 4 5
Waner 4 5 7 13 5 7 5 8 5 8
Winfield 3 7 3 3 2 7 3 7 3 7

Keep in mind that the MVP, as we know it, didn't really arrive until the 30s, and voting was done differently (or not at all) before then, so the MVP balloting data for players who spent some or all of their careers in the majors before then is going to be less applicable.

Again, though, this exercise shows what we saw before...Sosa doesn't compare well to the rest of the group. Not only is it clear he isn't in the Ruth/Aaron/Ott/Robinson class of elite HOF right fielders, he suffers in comparison to the rest of the class.

Heilmann, who (along with Keeler) was clumped with Sosa in WARP3, stands out clearly as more dominant in his time. And more modern contemporaries, Kaline, Jackson, Clemente and Winfield, all grade out higher than Sosa. And Kaline, Clemente and Winfield were all multiple gold glove winners who were considered exceptional defensive right fielders, while Sosa has been viewed as adequate, at best, in the field.

Comparing Sosa to the 12 BBWAA elected HOF right fielders, he appears better than Wee Willie Keeler, but pretty clearly worse than every other right fielder who has been elected.

So the case for having the BBWAA vote Sosa into the Hall boils down to, he's better than a guy who played in the 1800s who was voted in by the BBWAA more than 70 years ago.

That's not a real strong case.

Next, in part 3, I'll compare Sosa to some additional right fielders who have either been voted in by the Veteran's Committee, or who haven't been elected at all.

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suggestion for a part
do an examination of special case hall of famers if there are any.  i think people have this perception that you can still get into the hall of fame if you just get a couple of counting milestones.  it will give you an opportunity to take a shot at nolan ryan maybe.
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Sep 3, 2007 3:50 PM CDT reply actions  

He's still a HOFer
I'm probably harder on Sosa than most, but I still think he should be in.  Saying that he ranks near the bottom of this prestigious company doesn't convince me he shouldn't go in.  If he only had 500 home runs I'd say the round number stat doesn't mean anything, but he has 600.  Even in a HR inflated era, and even if you're convinced he took steroids, that's pretty impressive.  

If HRs are all you got, than you'd better hit a lot of them.  He did.  That combined with his fan stature gets him in for me.  Yes, I know that popularity should not be the most important factor, but it does count.  If there are others with more deserving overall stats that have not been voted in yet, that doesn't mean to me that Sosa should also not get in.  It means they should be in as well.

Signature

by t ball on Sep 3, 2007 3:58 PM CDT reply actions  

disclaimer
I'm not a hardcore 'small hall' guy, more in the middle.  
Signature

by t ball on Sep 3, 2007 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

nicely done...
I find this analysis more useful than the Keltner test, which I find way too subjective.  This definitely shows that Sosa would be a below average HOF RF compared to his peers.  Of course, it also shows that it wouldn't be an affront to the Hall when he is elected. Can't wait until part three...

by ksf42001 on Sep 3, 2007 4:15 PM CDT reply actions  

again, with Biggio and OPS+
There are 18 2B in the HOF.

Rogers Hornsby 175
Nap Lajoie 150
Eddie Collins 141
Jackie Robinson 132
Joe Morgan 132
Rod Carew 131
Charlie Gehringer 124
Tony Lazzeri 121
Bobby Doerr 115
Ryne Sandberg 114
Billy Herman 112

Craig Biggio 112

Frankie Frisch 111
Johnny Evers 106
Bid McPhee 106
Nellie Fox 94
Red Schoendienst 93
Bill Mazeroski 84
plus Frank Grant (who I can't find stats on)

OTHERS NOT IN THE HOF:

Jeff Kent 125
Bobby Grich 125
Roberto Alomar 116
Lou Whitaker 117
Julio Franco 111

Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball

by willamos2 on Sep 3, 2007 4:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Biggio
That still puts him around the middle of HOF second basemen, just using OPS+.

Alomar and Kent aren't eligible yet, but they'd both get in if I had a vote. Grich and Whitaker are more borderline cases, but I think they both deserve more consideration than they've received thus far.
 

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Sep 3, 2007 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Adam for HOF
They dont say well RF vs RF... it is an overall thing... The thing is that RF is the position where the most productive player in history are... So if you said now that Sammy is in the 15 best RF of all time.. then thanks Adam we have a HOF here...

You cannot take 600 HRS overall..
3 60 homers seasons...
And more that 20 individual records...

If Sammy is out... you have to re-evaluate and take out many many HOFs, like Ryne Sandberg that his numbers now look like from an average player.

by engelsol on Sep 3, 2007 5:15 PM CDT reply actions  

sorry guy
but position matters - which is why Ryne Sandberg is in.

and ryne sandberg is in because he is considered the best 2B in his league defensively AND he could hit.

anyway, if Sosa played some other position, it owuld have helped.  but he didn't so it doesn't.

Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Sep 3, 2007 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

any way, you give the reason
If position matter then you have to see that RF is the hardest position from a batting point...
So Sosa was not a LF or DH all his career. And if he is in between the best 15 of the hardest batting position, you have to be good...

A 3B and 1B are position where you expect much production also. But no team expect a 20 homer guy in RF unless the guy is Ichiro...

by engelsol on Sep 3, 2007 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Like Alomar..
The other day someone here said the he is a borderline maybe HOF...
Man Alomar was 2 times better than Sandberg that was a first ballot HOF.  Batting and Defending.

by engelsol on Sep 3, 2007 5:19 PM CDT reply actions  

roberto alomar
i think should be a show-in for the HOF.

maybe not 1st ballot, but eventually.

i posted a diary in july discussing current players and who should be in HOF

http://lonestarball.com/story/2007/7/12/181746/074

there may be some similar discussions there.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Sep 3, 2007 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

no doubter hofer
still.
"Jon Daniels is going to end up being the best thing to ever happen to the Texas Rangers." - me, a long time ago...

by Longhorn on Sep 3, 2007 5:24 PM CDT reply actions  

we are still talking about this
wow, he is a HOFer.  Massage the stats all you want but all you have to see is his roduction on the field (600HR, MVP, fan favorite, best player on his team ----Cubs for several years) makes him a HOFer.

Keep up the good work Adam in bashing Sosa.

by simbaa on Sep 3, 2007 5:33 PM CDT reply actions  

yeah
sosa IS a hall of famer.  we may not like him now, as a ranger, but so what.

it's like that old senator (forgot who) on discussing obscenity.  you may not be able to explain it, but you know it when you see it.  sosa is a HOFer.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Sep 3, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

that wasn't a senator
judge stewart in a pretty landmark case
Forget Johnny Bench, we got Gerry "the Jet" Laird

by ab03 on Sep 3, 2007 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

massaging stats?
It's not like Adam's picking and choosing stats to say if a person is "clutch" or not, since there is no perfect way to show "clutch" situations.  He's using very basic measures of performance, many of which compensate for era/park/etc.

by ksf42001 on Sep 3, 2007 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry for the misuse
massaging was a poor use of words.  I know he is not doing anything like that.  What i meant was more in reference to Part 1 where it was more subjective (i.e. was he the best player on his team for a stretch of time, etc.).

In this case, I know he is using the actual numbers but to me if yu tell me that Sosa is the 12th best RF int he Hall (if elected) even if that is out of 12 I say..well done...now the question is are there say others not elected (or likely to be elected) that are above him...that will show up in Part III

However, there are so many other intngible things with Sosa (600 HR) that make him a HOFer.

Sorry for the misuse of the word.

by simbaa on Sep 3, 2007 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

agreed
I still think that should get him in, and it's not like he'd be close to the worst additions to the Hall (thank you Veteran's Committee).  

In the end though, I'd be much happier if HOF voters would put this level of effort into their decisions, instead of filling out their ballot in less than 10 minutes (like some admit to doing).

by ksf42001 on Sep 3, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well...
I'm not saying he'd be the 12th best RF in the Hall of he's elected.

I'm saying that, of the 13 RFs who were voted into the Hall by the BBWAA, all of them other than Willie Keeler are better than Sosa.

Among all RFs, all time, he's probably around #20.

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2007 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

where do you rank SOSA among his peers?
either eh, or sheffield is the best RF during this time.

or do you bring in all other OF.  

that would move bonds and griffey ahead of him.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Sep 3, 2007 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Among his peers
That's going to be a separate segment.

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2007 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

can't wait.
besides catcher (pudge/piazza) and 3b (chipper jones) there really isn't a position where just 1 or 2 guys are heads and shoulders above the rest.

2b, alomar is close.

ss is REALLY crowded.

OF bonds and then 3 guys clumped together behind him.

i think.  but i won't research and go into the details that you to prove your point.

you can say that those of us arguing against you already have our minds made up. but so do you.  

with just about anybody, one can pull facts and figures out of somewhere and prove any point. or atleast make it look like a point was proven.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Sep 3, 2007 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

okay
i forgot to put manny ramirez and juan gonzalez in that list.  

bernie williams is a stretch.

Al Gore 2008 http://www.myspace.com/igotsculture

by gossamer on Sep 3, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Juan Gone
should go in the same part of the Hall as Albert Belle and Thurmon Munson.  Guys who should have been HOFer's, but injuries and fate knocked them otu of contention.

by JBImaknee on Sep 4, 2007 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

and by same part
I mean not actually IN the hall.

by JBImaknee on Sep 4, 2007 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Belle
I'm still of the opinion that Albert should be treated like Kirby Puckett, a guy that was great but had his career cut short by a degenerative condition in his hip.

by ksf42001 on Sep 4, 2007 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

understand
i understand your point.  But tell my if what you say is right that he would be the 20th best ever to be voted in amoung RF...that is pretty select company.  20th best RF ever to be voted in I mean if you said only the top 20 at each position got in that is only in th nieghborhood of 160 position players all-time.

Just making sure I understand what you are saying.

by simbaa on Sep 3, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Top 20
FWIW, there are only 14 catchers, 17 third basemen, and 20 second basemen in the Hall of Fame.

I would vote Sosa in if I had a vote, though.

"Then I met some friends for a beer, went to a BoDeans's concert, and son of a vondruke, if I didn't leave him at the concert hall."

by RCCook on Sep 3, 2007 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

HOF numbers
C: 16 (7 elected + 4 Veteran's Committee + 3 Negro Leaguers)
1B: 21 (10 + 8 + 3)
2B: 18 (9 + 8 + 1)
3B: 13 (6 + 4 + 3)
SS: 23 (10 + 11 + 2)
LF: 20 (9 + 10 + 1)
CF: 25 (7 + 12 + 6)
RF: 20 (12 + 8 + 0)

(I probably missed a few BWAA players, by the way -- I couldn't find a good list of VC vs. BWAA HOFers so I had to pick through them by hand.)

And 1 "DH", Paul Molitor (who played less than half of his career at DH).

This makes a reasonable case that the 20th best RF in ML history should be in the HOF -- [i]if you assume that the HOF does a good job of recognizing the 20 best RFs in ML history[/i].  They pretty clearly don't.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but historically the Veteran's Committee in particular has done a pretty terrible job at recognizing greatness.  Tommy McCarthy is a Hall of Famer.  King Kelly is a Hall of Famer.  Pud Galvin is a Hall of Famer, on the basis of being consistently mediocre when it was pretty easy to win 25-30 games a year.  Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Ross Youngs, George Kelly, Jim Bottomley and Travis Jackson are Hall of Famers because they had the good fortune to play with Frankie Frisch, who was the later head of the Veteran's Committee.

VC selections like this are the reason why you really have to limit your consideration set to players were were actually voted in.  And at the current time, roughly the top 10 players in baseball history at each position have been deemed worthy by the BWAA.  This is what's keeping Sammy out -- the standards already establish by the Hall voters.

by a bebop a rebop on Sep 3, 2007 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep
The V.C. has really been pretty erratic in the people it has picked.  You have some legit, deserving players who have slipped through the cracks that they've picked, but more often, it has been a way for old players to reward their buddies (in particular, when Frankie Frisch was chairing the committee).

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 3, 2007 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some very good data
I did know the numbers in the Hall were small but dd not realize positional breakdown.  

IF sosa is the 2oth best RF ever then although at first I thought that would be slamdunk HOFer it might not be.

Quick question, with so much emphasis on numbers (i.e. 300 wins, 500 or now maybe 600 hr's) it is very possible that the Hall will expand greatly in the next 10-20 years due to the numbers being put up by players now....unless of course they are not elected.  I am somewhat rambling but my question would be do people here think that writers will analyze or just elect guysthat put up the numbers (i.e. 600 hr).

by simbaa on Sep 3, 2007 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good Question
I personally think it could go one of two ways:
  1. They'll elect a large number of the first group of this generation to retire, and then slowly up what they consider automatic HOF offensive numbers.  I think we're already seeing movement along those lines in terms of pitching, since 300 wins is a lot less attainable than it once was.
  2. The voters just say screw it, and the the baseball HOF becomes more like the other major sports HOFs, where there's less emphasis on retaining the "integrity" of the institution.

by ksf42001 on Sep 3, 2007 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

All I care about
is where Sammy winds up on Adam's "50 greatest Rangers of all time" list.

I can't wait to read the write up.

by DJCahill on Sep 4, 2007 9:53 AM CDT reply actions  

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