Lone Star Ball: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

The wisdom of Tom Hicks

Tom Hicks speaks:

Hicks is counting on Ryan, the Hall of Famer hired as club president in January, taking charge of the organization's overall pitching program so it will finally lead to success at the Major League level. The Rangers were last in the Major Leagues in pitching this season, and it has been their biggest shortcoming in the past nine seasons.

"What you're going to see is Nolan Ryan's pitching philosophy imprinted on the organization," Hicks said. "It's related to better conditioning, better mound readiness, better strategy, having our pitchers throw one more inning than we have and quit coddling them. Hopefully there will be a consistent philosophy throughout the organization.

"It's the right time for this organization to embrace Nolan's pitching philosophy."

It is good to know that Tom Hicks now believes that the problem with the Rangers' pitching all these years is that these damn lazy pitchers have been coddled.

 

0 recs  |  Comment 88 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Hicks is a clueless fool. At least so far, Nolan is a somewhat of a blessing because he’s level headed. From a leadership standpoint Hicks is one of the very worst owners in sport worldwide. In fact, he might actually win a worldwide poll for worst owner right now.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he'd beat Hicks

For one thing, people pay so much more attention to Liverpool than Newcastle.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Over here, yes.

He was talking about the UK though. If you asked that question right now over there, Ashley would be the clear winner.

Semantics aside, eff Hicks.

by LiamP on Oct 1, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe because it's fresher on the mind

But all of England despised Hicks like no other, even the Russian gangsters and oil sheiks, until the Newcastle blowup.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really it was just Scousers.

To everyone else it was a bit of a laugh. You could say the same thing about Ashley and geordies I guess.

by LiamP on Oct 1, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's probably true

A couple of polls really stick in my mind mostly, and you’re talking about off the cuff stuff with that, not necessarily deep emotions.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worst owner in sports

 That title belongs Al Davis right now. Hicks is bad but not Al Davis bad. We’ll see where this “philosophy” takes them. House money is on nowhere.

Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 77-20 To RICE? Come on.

by sprite on Oct 1, 2008 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Al Davis kicked it up a notch this week, what a demented jerk.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He looks like...

the damn Crypt Keeper now.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Oct 1, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My favorite sports teams

are the Raiders, Rangers, Dodgers, Stars, Mavs & Lakers.

Tom Hicks own two of those teams and Al Davis owns another.

I’m in sports hell a lot of the time.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Oct 1, 2008 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh

My condolences. I’m not a real big Jerry Jones guy, but Davis is the eventuality of a worst case Jones scenario.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bit over the top..

.. the Stars are doing alright, and he’s opened the checkbook to sign above slot and international players. I can think of a several teams worse off.. the Pirates, Mariners, Orioles, Houston.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is not as hands on with the Stars

He is more hands on with the Rangers.

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 1, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

In terms of ownership, the Pirates are on better ground now. The Mariners certainly spend more, though there is a similar theme of being pushy while picking a bad GM, and Houston has consistently been a better franchise under McLane than Texas under Hicks. Most of our optimism involves trades that cut costs and prospect development, not anything that Hicks has done.

As far as the Stars, they’re a total cash cow now, and they are in decent shape because his former GM did a very responsible job in an irresponsible time. The best thing that you can really say there is that he’s a nonfactor (not that that isn’t something).

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As far as the Stars, they’re a total cash cow now, and they are in decent shape because his former GM did a very responsible job in an irresponsible time. The best thing that you can really say there is that he’s a nonfactor (not that that isn’t something).

I like this. If Hicks makes a bad hire who runs the org. into the ground, Hicks is a terrible owner. But if one of his hires does something good, then Hicks was just a nonfactor.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said

That’s something. I’d take a nonfactor any day as long as they generally hire good GMs (which he pretty much has with the Stars by just appointing successors) and spends reasonably (which he has, although he makes a big profit, so I don’t exactly score him big there).

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point was

That if you consider making bad hires to be mistakes, you have to give credit for good hires, and not just say his decision / action was a nonfactor.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In his time in owndership

Tom Hicks has made one GM hire that wasn’t a promotion of the assistant. It’s not that I’m not counting the moves with the Stars as successes, it’s that a trained monkey can promote the assistant (every one of whom was hired by the man he had just fired) every time he fires the GM. In his one decision to go outside of the organization, he created the Hart/Fuson management disaster.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a trained monkey can promote the assistant (every one of whom was hired by the man he had just fired)

What a circular web you weave. If you blame him for the results and decisions that result from a bad hire, you have to credit him for the results and decisions of a good hire. In other words, if Hicks hired a GM who, if nothing else, had the good judgment to hire a good assistant, then Hicks deserves some of the credit there, even if the good results don’t come until the assistant is promoted… by Hicks.

It is apparent that you have a conclusion and are coming up with rationale to try to support it, instead of the other way around.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think

Al Davis would be a leading contender for worst owner.

by Fooster7 on Oct 1, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

NVM

Read everyone else’s comments after I posted.

by Fooster7 on Oct 1, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow strong stuff

I’m not so sure you can exclude ryan from that declamation just yet. As far as we can tell, ryan’s pitching philosophy has nothing to do with pitching, but with running windsprints and giving/taking bloody noses.

I still think that it is reasonable to assume (until it is demonstrated otherwise) that the teaching/development/ drafting/ scouting philosophy will remain the same, with rick adair and most of the pitching coaches still adhering to the same philosphy only adding some tough love…

by Goyogringo on Oct 1, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My only conclusion, really, is that

he’s a breath of fresh air because he’s level headed and patient. I have no idea what his plan is, so I couldn’t draw any conclusions on it, which I think is pretty much what you’re saying. And even if I did know his entire plan, I’m just not very informed when it comes to pitching, so I wouldn’t feel very equipped to comment on it, other than on how the results turned out.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coddling pitchers..

.. i think its a mix of coddling them, but also not committing to them. The ChiSox let Danks pitch in the bigs all last year and it paid off this year. Most young pitchers need that full year to get it going. When is the last time we let a pitcher with real talent do that? Rangers get too cute and start shuttling back and forth b/w AAA and MLB too quick.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 5:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

True

But they let Matt Harrison pitch every fifth day after he got here and looked like they were going to let Hurley do the same. Now that might have been because of Nolan.

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 1, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point on Harrison

I wonder if Conner was the handing out the bus tickets. Hopefully the next wave of real talent gets here soon and we don’t have to suffer through the next wave of pray-they-turn-to-gold types.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

crossing fingers

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 1, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is just so much riding on

what direction the organization goes with their pitching coaches. I really think that it could go longer toward deciding how this all goes than who the manager is.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we need solid chemistry

b/w the coaches and manager. They all need to get on the same page. A good pitching coach isn’t useful if the manager pulls him too soon/leaves him out their too long.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The pattern that I've observed

is that they’ll go with a guy a first year, but even if he had success that first year, if he really struggles the second year, that’s pretty much it. Comparing Danks with that is tough because, first and foremost, he’s much more highly regarded than guys you’re talking about, and second, he’s had big success in that second year. The Rangers wouldn’t have given up on Danks after last year. They didn’t give up on Volquez after being like the worst pitcher in history in 05 and 06 in short trials.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Volquez?

They brought up Volquez too soon, then shuttled him all the way to A. My main point, is that they need to have patience.. first to be ready to get to the pro’s (read: dominate AAA), and secondly, once they get to the MLB, let them take their lumps without having to look over their shoulder after every start.

Hopefully they didn’t jack up Hunter by bringing him up so soon. I remember hearing the “tough mental fortitude” when they talked about CJ when they brought him up too soon.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely agreed

There hasn’t seemed to be a really good idea of when a pitcher was ready. Of course that plays into coaching as well, since poorly coached guys are more likely to not look ready whenever you bring them up. But your examples are right on. There is no question that Wilson was brought up toon soon and too soon in his recovery process, nor that Hunter or Volquez brought up too soon.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So many good pitchers succeed in the bigs without ever dominating AAA

Guys like, you know, John Danks.

I agree that if you believe in a kid you should believe in him though more than a few of bad starts, but I don’t think that AAA domination needs to be anywhere near the top of the list.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 1, 2008 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you are gonna stick with a young pitcher

There has to be a young pitcher that can take the ball every fifth day, and that has been a real problem around here.

A lot of people here bag on Galaragga, saying his results this year exceed his true talent level, and that may be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that he made it through a ML season and contributed 178 big league innings, and that in and of itself is more than what we have been able to get out of any young pitcher in a long time.

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 1, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How much of this is just media gamesmanship?

Is there a chance that Hicks is just using this whole “Texas High Heat!” thing to deflect some criticism from JD and this seasons mediocre W-L record and to drum up some more support from casual fans?

I mean, what are the odds Tom Hicks really believes the problem with the Rangers’ pitching lately has been “too much coddling”?

Sounds like he’s either very dumb, or he’s just playing on the dumbness of casual fans (and their love of all things Nolanesque) to try to get them excited about the future of this franchise. Until he fires JD I’ll choose to believe the latter.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 1, 2008 5:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great points

even if things are going to change naturally due to JD’s drafting – that won’t get fans in the seats alone. But having them think that “Nolan taught them how to pitch” certainly will.

Hicks is, after all, a business man.

by JBImaknee on Oct 1, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

This is the guy who said that he tried spending money with the Stars and unfortunately it worked. Who challenged fans by saying that if they’d improve attendance, the team would respond in financial commitment. This is not a media savy man.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hicks

…needs to take a page from the John Henry playbook and just stay out of the media. The whole “unfortunately we won the Stanley Cup” comment is just one in a long, long line of stupid BS the man spews.

by FuturePants on Oct 2, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coddling

I think it’s foolish to believe that Hicks is an idiot. A bad baseball guy, sure. (That’s not really his job.) But 99.9% of the folks on this board don’t have nearly the capability to achieve success that Hicks does. Poo slinging contest, you can probably take him. But I digress.

I agree with Z that he’s simply not good with the media. But I don’t think this quote is really a good example of it. It’s pretty ridiculous to read that quote and come up with the conclusion that Hicks blames all the pitching problems on coddling. If you’re going to accuse him of saying that, I might suggest that you don’t print his whole quote, wherein he refers to specific areas of the pitchers’ preparation that need work (i.e. he doesn’t blame it all on coddling).

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 5:45 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Being good at one thing does not make you better at

other unrelated ones. Hicks’ talent and positioning in the business that made him rich hasn’t done much to make him successful in this sort of venture. Additionally, being a specific kind of business success does not equate to intellectual intelligence or general good judgment. The guy doesn’t have good judgment, and he has no idea how to manage.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah
he has no idea how to manage

I doubt that you have any real insight into his management capabilities. But I could be wrong.

My post was not about being “good” at being an owner of a baseball team, whatever that means. (And I would just point out that it is beyond dispute that he is heads and shoulders better at it than any of us, because he has put himself in the position of being able to do it, which we have not. In other words, one prereq. to being a good owner, is to have enough money to be an owner. If you can’t even achieve that initial requirement, you will never, ever be a good owner. But one can always claim that you could do better.)

My broad point was that implying that he is an idiot is idiotic in itself. But my more specific point was that the criticism in the OP was simply inaccurate and unfair.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've talked a lot here about why I don't think that he is a good manager

and the obvious evidence for that. It’s pretty obvious that stating it again for your benefit is a waste of time, and I’m pretty sure that you don’t care to hear any more criticism of Hicks anyway.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem

Acknowledging legitimate criticism. This entire post is built on a ridiculous claim.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's ridiculous

To claim that Hicks was saying that the whole problem with our pitching is that we’ve been coddling the pitchers. It’s simply dishonest to claim that’s what he said in that quote.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

NO

BUT YOU HAVE BEEN REPLYING TO MY POSTS, WHICH ARE MAKING THAT POINT. SO IF YOU ARE JUST LOOKING FOR ANOTHER REASON TO GRIPE ABOUT HIM, YOU’VE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE, I GUESS.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't disagreeing

with your point regarding coddling. My issue with your comment involves relating success in another area with presumption that he knows what he’s doing in running a baseball franchise. None of what I said in response to your post was built on or had anything to do with coddling pitchers or Hicks’ comments in this case. If you’re saying that “this post is built on a ridiculous claim” in response to the coddling issue, whatever, that is not what I’m arguing here. But you stated that that you doubted that I had any insight to Hicks’ ability to manage, I responded, and you responded that “this post is built on a ridiculous claim”, which led me to believe that you are referring to my believe that he is a poor manager.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm referring to this thread when I say it's built on a ridiculous claim

And if your comment had nothing to do with the OP, then I stand by my point that it looks like you are just looking for a reason to bash Hicks, and this thread happens to be about him.

But as for your point, I think it’s pretty outrageous to think that you can determine whether he is a “good manager” in a general business sense. Hicks’ public life as the owner of sports franchises comprises such a small part of his business life, and his “management” that you are privvy to is even more limited, that it is just not very credible. The appropriate term would be small sample size.

You can say that he hasn’t done a good job of making the Rangers successful all day long, and I wouldn’t argue, nor have I. But judging him on the small number of episodes that come to light in the media and thinking you have any real sort of overarching understanding of him is simply not prudent.

by Back Door Yakker on Oct 1, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh

As far as your first sentence, you’re right.

For the rest, whatever. My issue with him as a manager has nothing to do with a “small number of episodes that come to light in the media” so you either have no idea where I’m coming from, but are ironically very quick to make overarching declarations of my foolishness, or you’re just ignoring the nature of my problem with him to belittle it because you’re grumpy about the tone of the initial post.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tough to blame Hicks

He has a GM who tells him one thing, who so far seems to not know much about pitching, and who hires folks who seem to not know about pitching, and he has a Hall of Famer telling him something else.

Unfortunately for JD, he has established zero credibility in the pitching department.

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 1, 2008 5:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The universe of baseball

didn’t begin when Jon Daniels became GM of the Rangers, and it hasn’t been confined to one organization since then. For someone with Hicks’ resources and any amount of judgment, there are other avenues to help him better understand the situation.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 1, 2008 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately

I remember thinking, please tell me that Kenny Williams can’t scout our players better than ou guys can.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 1, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wished I could

tell you that, but I can’t.

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 1, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The whole time Hicks has owned the team

the one constant has been the GM, and coaches, apparently knew dick about pitching. He is grasping for someone, anyone who seems to know something about it.

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 2, 2008 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man

and here I was thinking our failures was due to lack of face. Shows what I know.

by Taylor on Oct 1, 2008 5:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Get em Nolan

Randy Johnson anyone? Get some real grit on this team. Randy would mold McCarthy in no time. We need some short sightedness!

I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.

by TheBZA on Oct 1, 2008 6:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If Randy plays...

next year it will be in Arizona imo.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Oct 1, 2008 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Im all for it.

I’d like Randy to be here when Derek Holland makes his debut.

by tyd3311 on Oct 1, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan Ryan

I love how one of the most overrated pitchers ever is amazingly considered to know how to pitch and have a brilliant pitching philosophy…

Rangeressary

"the poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - G.K. Chesterton

by rangeressary on Oct 1, 2008 8:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The "Nolan was overrated" rant..

.. is tired and pointless. He had a career 9.55 K/9 with a .204 BAA and #5 in All-time IP.. all time #5.. in all of baseball.. innings pitched. Ever. Go away.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan was overrated

Was he about the 20th best pitcher of all time? Probably.

One of the 5-10 best ever? No way.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 1, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ranking players..

..across eras is pointless. Is there anyone that faced him that says he was overrated? Are there managers/coaches/owners who were in place when he pitched that think he was overrated?

I think Sabre stats are useful, but not the end-all in determining if he was “overrated”. There is one non-Sabre stat one could through to counter the Sabre stat that shows he was overrated, and I think if all one has are stats, the argument comes up short.

I don’t understand the obsession with “ranking” and lists other than it generates heated discussion.. its an exercise that is outdated as soon as it is completed.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

If the consensus from many fans is that he’s the best, or one of the 4 or 5 best, and he’s 20th or so, is he not overrated?

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 1, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't just fans that thought that.

The fan opinion was shaped from hearing from other players, coaches and managers. Its not as if the fan-on-the-street opinion is shaped by watching the games in a vacuum.

by mattrpav on Oct 1, 2008 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's just pissed that Blyleven hasn't made the Hall yet.

…When he should know that the opinions of the Baseball Writers of Association of America do not necessarily reflect those of the educated baseball community.

by oc on Oct 1, 2008 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's your point?

He, unlike the vast majority of fastballers in history, was able to pitch exceptionally well after the age of 37. Nolan Ryan thanks Tom House for this, in fact saying that House was the biggest influence on his later career. Don’t look too far into that connection because there are a myriad of reasons why Nolan Ryan fans won’t like what the connection implies.

But, let’s consider those stats that make him one of “the greatest pitchers ever.” Yes, he had a great K/9IP ratio. Right behind Pedro, Kerry Wood and Randy Johnson and right ahead of Sandy Koufax, Arthur Rhodes and others. What makes him so much greater than these guys is the fact that he was able to do it for such a long time. The fact that he didn’t lose steam on his fastball and was able to continue to dominate late in his career is almost miraculous.

Now, for some other stats. He had a slightly better than league average ERA (ERA+ of 111). His best season in this regard was his age 24 season where his ERA+ was 194. That’s great. His second best was his 142 ERA+ at the age of 40. That’s mind boggling. Despite those great seasons, he also had eight complete seasons, spread over his career, where his ERA was below league average. He also walked a lot of batters…about 1000 more walks over his career than any other pitcher in the history of baseball. He hit a lot of batters (often led the league) and threw a lot of wild pitches (also often led the league). Those qualities are fairly common for primary fastball pitchers, but the reality is that most pitchers aren’t primary fastball pitchers. Nolan Ryan was good, really good, but that equates to probably being the 30th best pitcher to ever play. It would be very hard to argue him into the top 20, and I don’t think any serious fan would do so. Yet, people still act like he was one of the best five or so pitchers ever, and some have ever called him the greatest. That’s simply historical revisionism, and thus he is easily one of the most overrated pitchers of all time. In reality, he’s very comparable (better but comparable) to Bert Blyleven, who’s not in the Hall of Fame simply because Ryan played for better teams (more wins) and because a dominating fastball is much more exciting than a dominating curve.

Now, how does his “pitching philosophy” translate to the Rangers young pitchers? There are three or maybe four pitchers in the entire Rangers system that could be said to even have the potential to have Ryan’s fastball…and that’s probably a stretch. None of them will have that type of fastball when they are 45, much less when they are 35. That’s the way human bodies normally work. Nolan Ryan pitched a ton of innings (as you mentioned). There are some starts where he might have thrown over 200 pitches. He pitched 352 innings in 1974. There are very few pitchers who have pitched more than 350 innings in a season in the modern era. There are especially few pitchers who are primary fastballers who have done it. That’s more of a knuckleballers forte. Yep, Nolan Ryan wasn’t “coddled” as he claims that the Rangers pitchers have been. But, on a normal pitcher (i.e. 99% of them since the beginning of the game), the type of workload that Ryan put up with, the number of pitches he would throw in a game and the number of innings he would pitch in a season do not translate into “toughness” or “wins,” but almost always translate into serious injuries, sometimes career threatening.

Rangeressary

"the poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - G.K. Chesterton

by rangeressary on Oct 2, 2008 4:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

5000+K's and 7 no-hitters

with more than half of them probably during the steroid era of baseball.

IMO “All-Time” is a skewed term. Bring Cy Young, Grove, Perry, Sphan, etc to the latter part of the 1900s and early 2000’s, I highly doubt that they would be able to put up the numbers they did.

We’re talking about Nolan Ryan. Not Roger Clemens who had juice just to keep his career alive after he had peaked. Nolan Ryan did it the right way and would have DOMINATED any pitcher’s numbers had he lived in the early 1900’s.

There is more than one era in baseball and Nolan Ryan stands alone in his era. Nobody can even touch him.

by texaschief on Oct 1, 2008 10:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wrong
Nolan Ryan stands alone in his era. Nobody can even touch him.

Jim Palmer?

Tom Seaver?

Gaylord Perry?

Steve Carlton?

Fergie Jenkins?

If he really stood alone in his era — if no one could really touch him — one would expect him to have a better ERA and ERA+ than all those guys, and to have won a Cy Young Award at some point in his career.

He finished in the top 5 in his league in ERA just 5 times, despite pitching most of his career in two very pitcher-friendly parks.

The dominant pitcher of that era was Seaver, not Ryan.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 1, 2008 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He played on some really crappy teams, though... at least that's what I've been told

He had a really good FIP. 2.96 for his career. That’s pretty ridiculous. 12 full seasons of a sub-3 FIP. (And quit e a few just a hair above 3). His career FIP is better than all those guys you mentioned according to fangraphs.

Not saying he was better, just saying he definitely belongs in the discussion.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 2, 2008 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Older era pitchers...

there would be many pitchers that may have lesser numbers if they pitched now. It is near impossible to compare different eras.

However one guy you didn’t mention on your short list that I’m convinced would dominate no matter when he pitched is Walter Johnson. IMO he was the best pitcher then and he would be now as well.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Oct 2, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a great point about the steroid era.

Yep, Ryan put up big numbers in an era (especially the 70s) when pitchers were notorious for using steroids. In fact, Tom House, who Nolan Ryan in his HoF speech credits for being his biggest influence later in his career, said that in the 60s and 70s, steroids were “widespread” among MLB pitching staffs. He says that in the 70s, “six or seven pitchers per team” were experimenting with HGH. The high inning totals of some of the pitchers during the 70s and early 80s should probably be attributed to this.

Oh wait…you were implying that the hitters he faced were on steroids? My bad…

Rangeressary

"the poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese." - G.K. Chesterton

by rangeressary on Oct 2, 2008 4:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take Carlton over Seaver and

Ryan over both of them although it would be a good argument..

Seaver staggered with a couple of exceptions after he turned 32.

Nolan had 203 K’s in 173 IP’s in 1991 with a 2.91 ERA…as a 44 year old.

Case closed.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Oct 1, 2008 11:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Josey hath Wailed.

"Asphalt me, ben. Asphalt me good and hard." - brettgardner

by Chase Irwin on Oct 2, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Texas Rangers.
Start posting about the Rangers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Th_buckykatt_small
MNF tonight
Cd_small
Jordan Schafer Available?
Marion_small
NFL Week 11 GDT
Roger_the_alien_american_dad_small
Josh Johnson Available?
Ochomerun_small
Who is Josey Wales?
Marion_small
Mavs GDT 11/20/09
Ebbsfleet_united_logo_small
Three way deal only works if...
Small
OT: The global warming hoax exposed?
Img_0225_2_small
Pertinent Fangraphs Articles
Texas-rangers-logo-2_small
Frankie Piliere scouting for fans now

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Th_buckykatt_small Adam J. Morris