Frustrated Ryan Challenges Pitchers
Today's DMN features a somewhat reassuring article on the specifics of the Rangers' plan, largely developed by Ryan it seems, at improving the stamina and testicular fortitude of the system's pitchers. Sorry, this is kind of long, but let's look at the major points, as outlined by Grant in the article:
His frustration, along with that of general manager Jon Daniels, led to discussions about how to change the Rangers' preparation. In reality, there is no grand plan to re-invent the art; the changes are mostly simple and minor.
Minor league pitching coordinator Rick Adair said he felt "liberated" by Ryan's suggestions.
"He is as fundamentally sound in his concept of how things should be as you can possibly be," Adair said. "It's about conditioning, about challenging them and about instilling in them the belief that they can meet those challenges."
It sounds like Daniels has been involved in the concept, and Adair has bought into it. Now you could say that both men would not be too forthcoming with the media about misgivings, but this is, I think, the 3rd time Adair has been quoted as having unequivocal support for Ryan's ideas (DMN article and blog, and FWST article IIRC). If Ryan was suggesting something potentially harmful I would think there would at least be some hemming and hawing in those quotes.
More live batting practice. It was incorporated in the minor leagues at the start of the regular season. Ryan wants more in spring training, too, something now-deposed pitching coach Mark Connor and bullpen coach Dom Chiti resisted last spring for the major league pitchers. Ryan believes batting practice helps build stamina.
Connor and Chiti are gone, obviously, so it looks like we'll see pitchers throwing batting practice in spring training. I thought batting practice was for the batters, but what do I know. I'm not sure this will help, but it probably won't hurt.
More sprinting: The system is stocked with power pitchers. Sprinting helps create more explosiveness than long jogs.
Seems intuitively correct, at least. I expect a few queesy hamstrings out of this if guys don't show up ready for it. Hopefully the offseason conditioning the team seems to be insisting on will prepare the pitchers for a more rigorous spring training. Or maybe, the sprinting is part of the offseason program?
Expanding limits: He doesn't favor abandoning pitch counts for minor leaguers. But he does want pitch counts to be more individually tailored. If a pitcher is closing in on his limit when he finishes one inning, it's more likely he'll be sent out to start the next inning and pitch right up to his limit rather than taking a seat early.
This seems like common sense to me. Push the pitchers a bit, but smartly. And I see nothing here to suggest the managers' hands will be tied in game situations.
Most importantly, Ryan wants to instill a genuine feeling of fearlessness among Rangers pitchers.
This smacks of hair on fireness, but a good idea to have guys who aren't afraid of big, bad, scary Arlington. Millwood and Kiker are both singles out as guys expected to show up in better shape, and there are hints that Kiker pouted a bit.
Finally, the most controversial part of this past week's quotes:
From Ryan on down, there is acknowledgement that pushing pitchers may result in a high-profile pitcher or two breaking down along the way. The general feeling: The number of capable pitchers found along the way will outnumber those lost.
While you might think this nonchalance at injuries is bad, I think the guys that will get injured because of this are most likely guys who would have eventually been hurt anyway. Bad mechanics, poor conditioning, and bad attitudes will be exposed quickly. It might even lead to fewer injuries in the long term if some arms are forced to make changes more quickly as bad mechanics become more painfully apparent and a no nonsense attitude is adopted.
In the end I don't see much in the above program that makes me fear a rash if career ending, or even delaying, injuries. What I find most refreshing here, though, is that Ryan seems to have the complete trust and cooperation of Daniels, Adair, and all of the prospects he has come in contact with. This says to me that Daniels and Adair are not going anywhere, and that every arm in the system is excited to be a part of this organization's future.
Link:
1 recs |
52 comments
Comments
sounds like a great plan
why does Adam hate Nolan anyway?
What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."
Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus
by tricer on Oct 12, 2008 10:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's silly
Adam professes some reservations about Ryan, with cause, and people think that means he “hates” Ryan. I was quite skeptical that hiring Ryan would suddenly mean the Rangers’ would be a great pitching team, and I was doubly skeptical that Ryan could reinvent the wheel somehow and come up with a magic plan. What I take away from this though is reduced fear of injury and I’m happy that the whole organization is moving in the same direction.
But there is still reason to have healthy skepticism, and doing so doesn’t mean people are sucking Daniels’ balls or hating Ryan.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 12, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
come on man
You know as well as I do that AJM refuses to criticize JD for any of the bone headed moves where he has given away good pitching, and constantly takes shots at Nolan based on nothing but his premonitions.
And as z has pointed out, the irony is that without Nolan JD would be looking for a job.
What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."
Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus
by tricer on Oct 12, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you are right
I’ve certainly never criticized the San Diego trade. And I certainly never said that someone other than Armando Galarraga should have been let go to make room on the 40 man roster last offseason. Nope, never did either of those.
Your bitch seems to be that I felt the McCarthy/Danks trade was a reasonable enough move that didn’t work out, and thus I refuse to crucify Daniels for that, and that I’ve said that Galarraga was a lot more lucky than good last year (which other non-Ranger bloggers have said as well).
If you want to interpret that as I refuse to criticize Daniels and hate Ryan, well, so be it. I’m not going to change your mind, I don’t think.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 12, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were two risks with hiring Ryan.
(1) That he wouldn’t respect or understand the value of the talent level accumulated on the farm by JD.
(2) That he would project his freakish durability onto every young pitcher in the organization and demand they be worked harder than ultimately their arms can handle.
It’s become apparent that (1) isn’t the case.
I don’t see much to worry about on (2), except the batting practice idea. It’s pretty obvious that long thows and sprints build explosive muscle actions, so I have no troubles with that. I’m not sure I see the value of throwing batting practice. It worries me a bit to see the additional mileage put on some young arms that just don’t need it, and I would be much more concerned about this than having individualized pitch limits that are expected to be met or exceeded regularly, but I say that not expecting to see 130+ pitch outings even with these changes implemented. I certainly haven’t seen any empirical evidence that activities like pitching batting practice builds stamina or durability.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Oct 12, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this with one reservation
I imagine that if you read the right Dusty Baker article, the explanation would be that it’s not about pitching guys 140 pitches every start, it’s about challenging them and expecting them to have ownership of their start. We’re still going to have to see what minor league coaches did in games that frustrated Ryan and how that changes.
But in terms of some of the training techniques, I don’t understand why they wouldn’t already be incorporating sprints and other techniques to promote fast twitch muscle development to begin with. So if they were behind in this area and he’s going to improve it, great.
by Brett Perryman on Oct 12, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baker
I would be much more worried if Ryan was a manager or pitching coach and directly handling a pitcher’s day to day work. My main worry right now is that he’ll push for a pitching coach that relies too much on a work harder attitude.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 12, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's a misconception:
Nolan Ryan wasn’t born a freakish pitching specimen.
He made himself one through constant conditioning, exercising, nutrition, and work.
Smile when you call me Beat Weed!
by Clueless on Oct 12, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is indeed a misconception
and it’s that any pitcher can be as physically strong as Ryan was if they just work harder.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 12, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They could, if
they owned a ranch and threw fastballs every day to their significant other.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Oct 12, 2008 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expected a more intelligent answer
That’s ridiculous. He ain’t from Krypton. He earned it.
You saying that the current Ranger pitchers are puss…maybe you have a point.
Smile when you call me Beat Weed!
by Clueless on Oct 12, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it's not possible
that certain people have more natual physical ability than others?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Oct 12, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome insight Beat Weed
If only I had as much “want to” as Michael Jordan, I’d be kickin it with them champeenship rings.
Me suck.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 12, 2008 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So your position is...
…that if, say, Nellie Briles had just worked as hard as Nolan Ryan had, and kept himself in as good of shape, then Briles would be the all-time strikeout leader instead of Ryan?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 12, 2008 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec
Just because this finally gives some meat to the rumors. Nothing shocking. I wonder about having pitchers throw batting practice but whatever.
I remember last after the Rangers home opener, I was sitting in the Gold Club having some beers. In the OF was Dice-K throwing long toss. That was interesting since I was in KC the day before watching his first start in the US yet there he was, one day later, getting in some work.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Oct 12, 2008 10:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One other thing
I’m sure the pitchers are going to hate one thing – sprinting. I’d always heard that pitchers hate running.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Oct 12, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Running is boring...
but I don’t know a single pitcher who wouldn’t choose sprinting over a timed run or a distance run. Of course, you usually have to do both… and about 10 minutes of plyometrics and calisthenics.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
The kind of sprinting that makes a difference is hard work. I wouldn’t discount how miserable of a workout purposeful sprinting can be, especially for someone who doesn’t enjoy running.
by Brett Perryman on Oct 12, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was speaking from experience.
For most athletes, the hard part of conditioning is mental, not physical, and from what I’ve seen, sprinting is far easier to handle mentally.
Physically, yes, sprinting is arguably harder work, but the boredom of timed (or distance) runs doesn’t come into play.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how you can make any sweeping generalization about what specific type of exercise an athlete will find distatseful.
I would think that is something that is entirely subjective.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 12, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was pretty clear that I was being subjective.
Guess not.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 13, 2008 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That part about tailoring PC's to the individual
Actually is a bit of a relief to me, because I thought at one point Nolan said that he didn’t like individually tailord PC’s (or at least that was intimated at one point).
I still don’t like the mantra that losing a few guys to injuries along the way is ok, but this article on Nolan and the pitching seems to actually make a little bit of sense this time.
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
by lonestarJon on Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's
saying injuries are OK, just like that. I take his meaning to be that pitchers get hurt all the time during their development stages, regardless, and that you can’t let too much caution prevent you from training pitchers the way you think they should be. That’s not saying that injuries are OK, is it?
Since nearly every pitcher was injured under a different training regimen last year, how could injuries be attributed solely to a new training regimen?
The utility of pitching batting practice is it provides additional work with a batter actually taking hacks at your pitches. The actual results aspects of your movement and command are more put to the test. There’s also a perceptual difference when pitching to a live batter than just to a catcher.
by mcgee48c on Oct 12, 2008 11:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought this might be
a link to an Onion article.
by Brett Perryman on Oct 12, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I was definitely expecting something.
"until they are good, they are not good" - seth
by Chase Irwin on Oct 12, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silly ass cracker:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/09/15/109-the-onion/
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 12, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron Darling
In last night’s Red Sox/Rays game, the lack of velocity by Josh Beckett was being discussed. Darling commented that the only way to develop arm strength was to throw. Since Beckett had been disabled late in the season, he suggested that the lack of throwing was the reason for the lack of velocity.
As an example, he then told a story of Nolan Ryan in spring training. In one of Ryan’s starts, he was throwing only fastballs and was getting hammered. Someone asked Darling why he didn’t throw any off-speed pitches. The response from Darling was off-speed pitches don’t build arm strength, fastballs do…and that is what Nolan was working on in spring training.
(This is how I remember story from last night…I may have missed a few parts).
With this in mind, it seems that the purpose of throwing batting practice is to build arm strength….fastballs down the middle. Bullpen sessions will be/are used to work on mechanics, pitches, and locations.
by T Coleman on Oct 12, 2008 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You can condition your throwing muscles
just like any other muscle in your body. Batting practice is thrown with lower intensity and more repetitions than bullpens. Mileage really shouldn’t be an issue for anyone with healthy mechanics.
Also consider this. Pitching, even at lower intensity levels, is a whole-body event. The semi-rapid succession of pitches almost creates an aerobic event which, of course, improves cardiopulmonary conditioning.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am convinced you know everything there is to know about pitching.
by oc on Oct 12, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Typically, comments like this are sarcastic in nature.
So please forgive me if I hesitate to thank you for your confidence in me.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem is
throwing at a lower than game intensity is treated as a completely different activity by your body.
by SteveP on Oct 13, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Why is that a problem?
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 16, 2008 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seemed to me that throwing batting practice was more like
long running and, just like sprinting is more effective than long running, it seems some other forms of high intensity throwing would be more effective.
My thinking is that benching 50 pounds 200 times doesn’t help someone lift 200 pounds 20 times instead of 15. I was thinking batting practice is like benching 50 pounds 200 times, and pitching in the game is much closer to a max effort excercise that requires max effort training to improve stamina.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Oct 12, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well... in terms of actual work...
50 × 200 = 10,000 lbs of work
200 × 20 = 4,000 lbs of work
The high reps exercise is going to do more to condition your body while the high intensity exercise is going to build explosive power. Pitchers need both, which is why the batting practice isn’t replacing long toss and bullpens but is being used as an adjunct to the rest of the training regiment.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
*regimen
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 12, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rooster
you are absolutely on the right track. pitching is a skill activity. the skill being throwing at full intensity from a mound at 60 feet six inches to a target. the only way to get better at that skill is to practice that exact skill.
by SteveP on Oct 13, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Normally I don't do this, but...
Do you really need to post this opinion in every single thread about pitcher conditioning? Seriously. We know what you think.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 16, 2008 1:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
but it’s not arm strength that’s being built through throwing. a pitcher’s non-throwing arm is as strong as his throwing arm. what’s being built is the speed of movement, timing, etc…the mechanics of throwing a fastball.
by SteveP on Oct 13, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Stronger?
How many pitches can you throw with your throwing arm before your mechanics start to fail because of fatigue?
How many pitches can you throw with your non-throwing arm before your mechanics start to fail because of fatigue?
Muscular endurance and explosive power are a part of strength and key to a pitcher’s ability to throw a lot of innings.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Oct 16, 2008 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love it!
Let The Express rerail this trainwreck of a pitching staff!!! It would be hard for him to do worse with a pitching staff that at one point last year had one of the highest ERA’s in the history of baseball. We know one thing for sure..what’s been going on the last few years is NOT WORKING. I have a hard time believing that the man doesn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to conditioning. He was/is famous for being a beast up to the age of 44 …yes of course that was part anomaly and part dedication. Don’t discount what percentage of that was dedication.
He’s incorporating a gradual ascension in conditioning principals that will lead to more durable and stronger pitchers. The days of Kevin Millwood coming to spring training with the “I get ready at my own pace” mantra like he did when he first got here are over. ..that’s why his name keeps getting mentioned. The younger guys look up to him.. as the supposed ace of this team eventhough he’s never been that. The I get ready at my own pace translation is that I don’t want to work as hard as the others because I have a few good years behind me. Those good years are ancient history and now it’s time to lead by example for the young players. It will be interesting to see if he goes along with the program or rebels.
Nolan is not going to sit with a whip and throw everybody on a bike for 30 minutes after their starts like he used to do. I’m sure he’ll get the whip out on those who want to go at their own pace. Those days are over..you gotta run boys..the party is OVER!!!
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Oct 12, 2008 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
read this twice
very well stated LAMF. I agree all the way around.
What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."
Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus
by tricer on Oct 12, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem with all of that
…or problems, I guess:
1. The pitchers who went elsewhere and had success after struggling here clearly – like Danks, Galarraga and Volquez – didn’t do so because of increased fitness or a fearless mindset ingrained over a period of time. Danks and Volquez improved because of obvious mechanical and strategic changes. So to say that you’re going to fix that problem with this plan isn’t logical.
2. The stakes are much higher now, because of the drastically increased level of talent in place. So to recklessly (and I do think it’s reckless to use this logic) say that what’s been in place is ineffective, so anything else must be better means that instead of getting D performance out of D talent, you could find youself getting F performance out of B+ talent, because you ruin that talent. I’m not saying that I think they will, but acting on your logic is the best way to make that happen.
by Brett Perryman on Oct 12, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I'm not saying ..
that improved conditioning is the ONLY answer to fixing this mess. That coupled with a pitching coach who knows what the hell he is doing is the other piece of the equation. I’ll take the appropriate mechanical adjustments + a fine tuned athlete over the appropriate mechanical adjustments + a poorly conditioned athlete any day. I’m betting that you get A or B performance out of B+ talent. I don’t see how a gradual ascension in training philosophy would make performance worse regardless or the grade of the talent.
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Oct 12, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
regardless of*
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Oct 12, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
that, at least from the perspective of all of us who aren’t pitching experts, there sure seems to be room for improvement at the pitching coach position, and that it sure seems like something that could help the organization noticeably. My attitude on that is just similar to my attitude on the entire issue, that I am on board with change, but I don’t know how to declare that the change that they’re making is good until I see exactly what it is.
by Brett Perryman on Oct 12, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough Z
Well I guess none of us really know but it sure would be nice to have a pitcher like Tim Lincecum who can go out there and throw 140 pitches. I know I’m just dreaming now but it’s a nice dream to have …OK I’ll settle for 110 :)
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Oct 12, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 















