RBiA grass and fast infield
The grass at the Ballpark is a dwarf bermuda, Tifway 419. If any of you are golfers, you may have heard of it. 419 can be mowed down to less than 1/2" and still take wear well. Most of the MLB fields have fescue/bluegrass turf, but they are also in the northeastern part of the country where it does not get as hot and the springs are much cooler. It appears that the Ballpark grass is cut somewhere around 1" in height. 419 will develop a thatch layer that makes it spongy and does not allow water to permeate to the root bed. 419 for this reason has to be verticut anually to remove this thatch layer. The RBiA appears to overseed the 419 with a fescue/rye grass to make the grass green for opening day as bermuda grass does not begin to flourish until the ground temps begin to warm after winter, in the 50's and 60's. If this is not done, the field turf would be thin and not so green for opening day. Doing this creates a problem to growing the grass longer than they do. As the days get warmer, the fescue/rye grass begins to die out, but it has been shading the 419 since it began its spring growth in March. You cannot kill the fescue/rye grass alone without killing the bermuda (419). So they keep the fescue/rye grass alive as long as possible, then as it gets warm, its cut allows the 419 to get sun, thus alowing it to choke out the fescue/rye grass with which the field was overseeded. If the grass is left at a higher height, it will be ever increasingly difficult to transition to the 419 in the late spring, early summer as it will not get the sun it needs to grow. thenwhen it gets hot, the fescue/rye will die out and then you would have a sparse field which nobody wants. I contacted Dr. Alan Nathan, Univ of Ilinois, who has a website on the physics of baseball. Here is the email and his response.
Email: Most MLB parks have bluegrass/fescue grasses and some have a variety of hybrid Bermuda grasses. Hybrid Bermuda grasses can be thatchy if not verticut regularly, but I doubt that any grounds crew would allow their field to have that happen. My question is whether or not the type of grass can affect a ground ball? I realize the height can affect a slow roller, but is there any measurable difference that grasses can have? If a team allowed their hybrid Bermuda to become thatchy, would that have any effect?
Answer: I am not an expert on different types of grass nor do I know of any careful studies of the effect of different grasses on a ground ball. But for sure there must be an effect. Some infields in MLB are known as "slow", some are "fast". Moreover, I would bet that any particular field is tailored to the type desired by the home team, so the groundskeepers know how to make it slow or fast. However, I don't know any more other than that general statement.
By the way, the effect is not likely to be as large as it is on a golf green, since a golf ball rolls on the surface whereas a baseball is mostly bouncing on the infield. Once it gets to the outfield, it can be rolling, so the effect there may be greater.
He does concede that baseball people talk about "fast" and "slow" infields. This is due to several reasons.
1. Fescue/Rye grass areas have softer turf. The ground is not nearly as packed as it is in the southern part of the US having little to no clay in the soil. Softer turf equals a ground ball losing some of its forward momentum when it strikes the ground.
2. Fescue/rye grass in cooler climates can be left longer than the grasses used in the sourthern part of the US, thus haveing an affect although minimalt on the speed of the ground ball unless it is a bunt or it gets to the outfiled.
So, as the type of grass itselt making a difference in the speed of the infiled is minimal, how firm the turf is in the infiled has a much greater affect on the speed of the ground ball. Hard ground and short grass equals a fast infield. You cannot grow the cool climate grasses throughout the year in Texas and whether the RBiA groundscrew can soften the infield, I do not know. Soil surveys of Tarrant county show the soil has a fair amount of clay which packs and is virtually impossible to make soft. Topsoil would have to be brought in to soften of the soil. Then you would have to take a large amount of soil out of the RBiA or raise the filed level. Both costly. So, what you have is Texas which gets hot in the summer, bermuda grass that does not get really growing until after the beginning of the season forcing you to keep the grass short, and firm ground which leaves you with a "fast" infield. But that is basically the remedy for slowing down a ground ball hit in Arlington. The Braves, Marlins, and D-backs will have the same basic infields, although they may use another bermuda hybrid.
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That is BS you can kill
fescue or rye grass in Tiff 419 without hurting it. I’m in the industry owning my own business. You can spray TFC and it will kill the rye and fescue.
The blades are different and vary from grass to grass some have wider blades such as St. Augustine and certain types of fescue where as others have a skinny blade such as all types of Bermuda, Zoysia and Bent. So IMO yes I think the wider blades of turf grass would slow the ball down more no matter what height it is mowed at.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
So, are you saying
the whole thing is BS or just the killing of fecuue within bermuda? I don’t think you will see a field in St. Augustine, and it is hard to keep the fescues thriving at the RBiA. No air movement, no shading, and hot.
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
Just the killing of fescue in the tiff
I have heard of a new hybird of fescue that tolorates the sun in our zone but I would have to see it over several years to believe it. I think the name is Blue Thunder not for sure though. I agree with the St. Augustine I was just making a point on the different types of blades. They could always go with green turf paint for the first series of the year instead of overseeding. Although I don’t think the players would like that to much.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Fescues usually do not
tolerate traffic very well. Toward the end of the season, even the 419 shows wear when the OF play regularly.
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
I think they just have
a problem lenghtening the 419 enough to make much a measurable difference, and there are few grasses from which to choose.
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
Agreed
Some years are better than others it just depends how the schedule is compiled with home and away games to give the turf enough time to recover between home and road series.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Question
From golf. I occasionally see I think it is called “dwarf eagle”, which may be a variant of tiff. Is it a high durability variety of hybrid, and would it be better for a baseball playing field than 419 or one of the African strains ?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Oct 15, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Dwarf tif eagle
is more often used on putting surfaces. 419 you will see on tees, fairways, green surrounds, and rough because it takes traffic well. I think “eagle” it has a thinner leaf. Whether it would hold up to the kind of traffic a baseball field must tolerate, I don’t think it would as well as 419. You can have a tighter cur w/ it, but that defeats the purpose here. Some say it does not need to overseeded, but if it did work, and you did not overseed, then it would have to be painted for opening day and for several weeks into the season. I really don’t think the grass has as much of an affect as the soil under the grass, ie the amount of clay in the soil which compacts and stays firm even when the turf is well maintained. I’m not an agronomist, i"ve just played on this stuff all over the country for years and most of my information comes from grrenkeepers and past experience.
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
Thanks
Over all the years (and places) I’ve played, more putts drop on bent than any of the hybrids. I’ve always thought it was because the tilt and break is more predictable than on any surface that inherently tangles, and can affect either the path or the roll of the ball. Golf aside, I’d love to see a new hybrid, with fairly broad heat resistant blades that can be mowed short for baseball. This supports your theory that the composition of the soil itself has a lot to do with the velocity and spin a ball takes.
The club I joined just this year uses dwarf eagle on the greens, and 419 elsewhere (along with the local custom of allowing poa annua), and when short it can run a little fast (11+ on a stimpmeter) yet slow remarkably when its’ base stays a little damp. Thus the question about it for baseball. Guess it isn’t hardy enough for diamond traffic though.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Oct 15, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Bent is by far
the best putting surface we have, as bermudas are much more difficult to take the grain out of play. Texas is not the best place to grow it either. Especially in east and south Texas as the humidity creates problems and not enough air circulating over the surface. You may have seen fans around greens in the Dallas area where they have bent grass tying to move the air. Humidity, heat, and no air movement create prime surfaces for diseases in bent as it is considered a “cool weather grass”. If you have ever seen bent grass turning blue, it is from the heat and needs water. That is why you will see greenkeepers syringe (light spray) greens during the summer in the heat of the day.
You will see “fast” fairways in Texas as it is difficult to soften them because of the soil, usually a clay base, unless as you say they are wet. That is why I think the grass plays a minimal part in the speed of a ground ball, but the soil has to play a much greater roll. You can lengthen the grass, but that does little to a hard hit GB.
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
Ha
St. Augustine. Imagining if RBiA was like my lawn — some of the crazy hopes they’d get and tripping over the vines that grow underneath the blades.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 14, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I grew up mowing a St. Augustine yard. It never looked as good as our neighbor's Bermuda.
Are the vines good for anything?
nope
I hate St. Augustine turf
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Never a big fan either
Moved to Austin last year and that’s all that anyone has down here. It is much easier to maintain though.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 15, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you have a more
sandy soil than here in the Metroplex?
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Try again
http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2005/mar_apr/spring.html
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
I put this too far down on the page for some reason, but
thought you might like the read..
http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2005/mar_apr/spring.html
"The path you choose, you also choose its destination..."
Yep
I keep telling customers if they are going to go rye only do it once every three years because it gives the bermuda time to recover. If you go rye every year you will lose your turf grass over time and never should you rye a St. Augustine lawn.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Man...
this thread makes me think of King of the Hill.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Real good guy
I’ve known him for about 8 years now and used to advertise on his radio program.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
There must surely be
A treatment for 419 hybrid tiff that includes a beneficial effect from propane >??
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Oct 15, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
my sweet lord
this is some in-depth grass coverage here! you went way over my head when you wrote “tifway 419.” my yard is full of crabgrass…you’ve inspired me to check out a book on grass so I know what you fellas are talking about!!!
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
by Bob Loblaw on Oct 16, 2008 1:48 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm also inspired
to continue to let my lawn service worry about this crap. I have more important things to do, like, uh, make inane blog comments.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
+1
"until they are good, they are not good" - seth
by inactive lsb user on Oct 16, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions

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