OT: DDT (Debate-Day Thread)
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 15, 2008 2:53 PM CDT
640 comments
Thought I'd put it out there just in case anybody still cares. I think this one might be a little more interesting that the last two -- based almost wholely on the fact that the pundits are saying that McCain has to do something dramatic in this debate to turn things around. Here's CNN's preview:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- GOP Sen. John McCain must clearly differentiate his plan to fix the ailing economy from that of his rival Sen. Barack Obama at Wednesday night's presidential debate if he is to shake up the race, political analysts said.
"I think what he has to do is talk about the issues. ... He's got to talk about his economic plan," CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger said. "Yes, he's got to convince voters that he's got the judgment to be president, but he's also got to convince voters to like him."
The third and final debate, taking place at Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York, at 9 p.m. ET, may be the last time the Republican presidential candidate may be able turn the race to his favor before Election Day, now less than three weeks away.
The 90-minute face-off, which will air on CNN and CNN.com, will undoubtedly focus on the economic crisis plaguing the country.
CNN political editor Mark Preston said the debate will likely be McCain's "last chance to reach tens of millions of people with his vision for America."
"He needs a game-changer," Preston said.
As the nation has been going through a financial crisis over the last few weeks, McCain has slipped in the polls behind Obama, the Democratic nominee.
A CNN Poll of Polls calculated Wednesday has Obama leading McCain 50 percent to 42 percent. Obama is also leading McCain in battleground states such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Florida.
As Obama has opened up his lead, the McCain campaign has responded by trying to raise doubts about Obama, particularly by tying Obama to William Ayers, a former 1960s radical who belonged to the Weather Underground, a group that bombed federal buildings to protest the Vietnam War.
A New York Times/CBS News poll released Tuesday night suggests that the McCain campaign's negative attack strategy may be backfiring on the Republican presidential candidate.
In the poll, 60 percent of the voters surveyed believed that McCain had spent more time attacking his rival than explaining what he would do as president. In contrast, nearly two-thirds of the voters surveyed, 63 percent, felt that Obama has spent more time explaining his policies than attacking McCain.
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First question tonight
Peavy or Greinke?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McCain instantly goes with his gut and says Peavy.
After meeting with his advisers and plenty of careful deliberation, Obama chooses Grienke.
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Oct 15, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then
McCain tries to tie Obama to Connor and Chiti, and Obama says that McCain backed the SD trade.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
first time i think i’ve ever rec’d something for making me laugh that hard
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Oct 15, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Oct 15, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain did always seem like the Buck Showalter of the political world.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that makes obama...
ron washington?
on an experience level at least lol – clearly he is much smarter than wash
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 15, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was gonna say Obama = JD
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was just trying to stick w/ the manager reference lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
…the market is down again today another 700+ pts… mccain doesn’t stand much of a chance as long as that continues… he can ask about ayers, farrakahn, and the crazy minister… but, right or wrong, thats not gonna stop the association people are making between the GOP and the economic collapse…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 15, 2008 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
The Economy Trumps All!!!!
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 15, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way that it looks...
the market is going to stabilize until after the election, anyway. So, if McCain is going to gain ground it’s going to have to do so without any market improvements.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 15, 2008 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The All-Knowing Market
The Dow was up, what, 700 or 800 points the other day and wasn’t it down by nearly as much today? What exactly changed in the meantime? I know some new economic numbers came out, but were they really surprising news?
Believe me, I’m definitely a capitalist andI do think that in the long run markets are usually pretty smart. But in times of crisis they go completely and totally insane. Don’t these people know that these bailout measures will take a little while to work? It’s total panic. But then the other day the G7 gets together and says “ok we’re going to do some things together” and it thrills the market to death. So much so that we saw the largest points gain in history, right? Why? Because the market is having a nervous breakdown.
Capitalism is imperfect. That’s where I’m going with this. If we went back to 1890 when there really were no rules, everything would totally suck. The market is fine and should be the dominant force, but it needs to be tempered a dash of “liberal pinko communism”.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Liberal pinko communism...
Uh, I don’t think so.
The large market gains were due in no small part to retail investors getting back in the market. There are going to be a lot of selling pressures as hedge funds sell to meet redemption requests.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 15, 2008 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
x
That was an exaggeration. For effect, you know.
I still think the market is crazy. If you look at all the stocks that were up the other day and all the were down today, it’s just nutty behavior in the market, no matter who’s buying and who’s selling and for what reasons. And I’m not condemning anyone, really. If I were in charge of a lot of peoples money in this market I’d probably be nervous as hell, too.
But, no, I’m not talking about nationalizing anything. The government’s doing that to an extent, and I understand the basic principles behind it, but I’m not really talking about full on balls out takeovers of any privately held organization by the government. I was just referring to some regulation is all. And if buying some stock helps capitalize the banks, I guess that’s fine with me as long as it’s not permanent.
But anyway, I was just pointing out some very erratic behavior and no matter what you say, you and I both know there’s at least an element of mob mentality when the single day gains and losses are this huge. The market’s not always rational.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The market is not always rational.
Neither are regulators.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 15, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain May as Well Cede
…the election to Obama. There’s nothing he can do to make up the kind of ground he needs to make up.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 4:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We will see
I’m not sure a major terrorist attack or similar shock couldn’t change things.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 15, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's sad is
that obama probably hopes the markets keep declining until eleciton day and mccain probably hopes that something bad like that happens…but i really don’t think mccain would be better suited to handle that. he’s…“erratic”
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously doubt
that Obama hopes the markets tank. One, I don’t see him hoping for bad news, two, he doesn’t need it. I also seriously doubt that McCain wants a terrorist attack. I give both men much more credit than that, they’re dedicated public servants even though their also double talking politicians.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that may have been a little harsh
to say they “hope”.
lemme try it this way, obama realizes that he is benefiting from the economy going in the pooper. mccain realizes that it’s hurting him. mccain realizes that americans think he’s more suited to handle national defense stuff, obama knows this as well.
now it’s the party hacks that indeed “hope” for those things. the right wing media spinnsters like limbaugh and hannity etc… hope for an “event”.
the left wing hacks like amy goodwin, michael moore and greg palast are probably rooting for the econonmy to tank (or at least not get better) until november 5th.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
michael moore
ugh
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, there's nothing HE can do.
And I’m not sure a national security crisis like that would be enough, as Obama’s poll numbers on those kinds of issues have risen, too. It may be enough to win him Ohio, but Obama’s lead in the other large battleground states has grown insurmountable if you believe the polls.
Anyway, the reason Obama will win this election is because of his ground game, which is incredibly disciplined, well-funded, extremely organized, and is everywhere. Nothing short of a time machine can change the outcome now, in my opinion.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if:
We invade Iran btw now and Nov 4th?
I actually bet one of my buddies on this in early Feb, and Nov 4th was the cutoff. He thought the repubs would use it as an “ace in the hole” move, but they seem to be running out of time. I think he can go ahead and ship the monies.
-or-
We “find” Osama bin Laden
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Oct 15, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that second one would happen
right before the last election. Just wanted to jump in there.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People
Actually are saying they trust Obama to handle an emergency better right now.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
George has pretty much
poisoned the well for any Republican right now.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 15, 2008 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fascinating
Article in the NYT the other day about how Republicans, and Gordon Smith in particular, are running against themselves and are trying to ride on Obama’s coattails.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon Smith
sounds like real conniving scumbag… but all I know of him is what I just read in that article.
The problem appears to be the same at every level, the bipartisan system is a joke. Quoted from the link above:
‘Why don’t you put "Republican" on these fliers?’
‘Because I don’t want to lose.’
That’s what it’s usually about, R or D. Get rid of that bs and run as candidates with ideas and solutions compared to your opponent. How can it be that every damn republican with a chance for the presidency is for the right to bear arms? Isn’t that a civil liberty? Why do dems stand against it? I don’t get much of this crap.
I’m liberal in a lot of areas, but you’ll never take my guns and I’m not sure universal health care is such a good idea (neither is what we have today, though). I hope for the day that a legit third party can come shake things up…
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Oct 15, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem
with 3rd party candidates is that they siphon off voters from one candidate and that allows the other to win. See 1992.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 15, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or on the other end of the spectrum
2000.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Third Parties
If third parties ever get any momentum in this country, it will be after some huge calamity or perhaps the GOP splintering off the religious right. Either way, the minor part will be, at first, relatively narrow in scope and will align itself in the legislature with whichever party it came from, and because they could threaten to hold out their votes the extremes would actually become even more powerful.
Now I’m not defending the two-party system. They’re just structurally entrenched and it’s unlikely a third party could ever get enough traction to be a major player for any length of time. For better or worse, we seem to be locked into this.
And I’m kind of like you. I don’t favor nationalized health care like the NHS, but do think we need to do something. Universal insurance may not be a bad idea, but whatever the solution, it’s apparent to most of us that the status quo just isn’t working. In terms of guns, I don’t like having to carry but in my business I kind of have to, and I sure wouldn’t like it if the government were to say I couldn’t. I think I would just carry it anyway. It’s AMERICA!
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the info
Just out of curiosity, what is it you do that requires you to carry a gun?
And I checked out your pictures linked from your profile, you have some really great shots in there…. do you have to be armed to be a photographer? I noticed you were in some seedy parts of town in a few of those
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Oct 16, 2008 2:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
I’m a very effective community organizer? Mafioso? I’m trying to think of something cool sounding to answer that question. To be honest I don’t want to say exactly what I do. It is legal…I’m not a drug dealer or a pimp or anything like that. The fact is that I am in those neighborhoods a lot, though, which is why they are photographed so much. Plus I just like those parts of town. The people there are more real, and their surroundings reflect that. The young ones who aren’t employed, though…you have to look out for them.
Being a photographer in these parts of town, yes I would say it’s practically necessary to be armed. Photographic equipment is very expensive and a criminal would know it’s worth something. When I have that shit out on the streets in some neighborhoods I’m extremely careful without a doubt. Out of 200 people, 199 won’t bother you. But if you’re out there enough that 200th person will come around. I’ve never had to shoot anyone but twice people have tried to take my camera and lens. They were unsuccessful. I have three things working for me: 1) I’m careful and very aware, 2) I’m a mean looking son of a bitch who displays no fear, and third and most importantly, to get the best light you have to get up early and most criminals simply aren’t awake yet.
In spite of the very few who will cause trouble, I really like those parts of town like I said. They’re authentic and even the decay has a certain beauty to it. As long as it’s there I’m going to photograph it. I realize that may put me at a higher risk of being a homicide victim or having to draw my weapon, and that’s just a trade-off I’m willing to make. Every time I go out I pray that neither of those things happen.
Thanks for the comments on the photos. I’m glad you enjoyed them.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
third and most importantly, to get the best light you have to get up early and most criminals simply aren’t awake yet.
this is pure gold
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks kind of what brought mccain back into it
well other than palin but being right about russia didnt hurt lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I wonder when ben will pop in to tell us that this debate will be graded on a curve.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 5:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd be interested to hear that logic.
I think the bottom line is that McCain needs a clear, obvious win. Not a draw, not a “victory on points” or some such nonsense. It’s got to be a legit, almost inarguable victory tonight.
Anything less, and the ballgame really might be over.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Anbody
see the ABC show ad at the top of the page? It’s cool and all but I’ve got to say I miss the Snorg Tee girls.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 59-30 to U LA LA? Come on.
by sprite on Oct 15, 2008 6:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The girls didn't do much for me
but the shirts amused me
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain on the offensive early
Good for him.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 59-30 to U LA LA? Come on.
by sprite on Oct 15, 2008 8:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McCain could really be owning Obama right now on the Joe the Plumber point
if he could just articulate his point a little better. He doesn’t seem like he really knows what he is talking about.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 15, 2008 8:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i think that
joe sixpack doesn’t mind if the super wealthy “share the wealth”…but mccain seems to think they do. he should have just said, “socialism!!!” i think that gets his point across better
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He just seems really uncomfortable
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 15, 2008 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not able to watch the debate much
right now. i am catching bits and pieces. from what i see mccain is doing real well and obama ain’t really doing great.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe the plumber is totally getting laid tonight.
God that whole argument was just stupid to me. You’re right they gave no facts. They both danced around this rather ambiguous hypothetical situation and gave no facts. Bleh.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Senator McCain you're first.
I wonder why?
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 15, 2008 8:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like this question
about how they’re running their campaigns
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 8:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Hey Hey
Taking a shot at the Cowboys. Not cool.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 59-30 to U LA LA? Come on.
by sprite on Oct 15, 2008 8:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
he's trying to win them Eagles fans in Pennsylvania
heh
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Oct 15, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain keeps ripping Obama but Obama seems reticent to counterpunch
Seems to this uneducated observer that he just knows he’s way ahead and is playing not to lose. This strikes me as the political equivalent of the prevent defense.
Or maybe Obama just ain’t got enough mean in him.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 8:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McCain is kind of a crybaby...
“You didn’t stick up for me!”
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 8:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and
“the campaign got dirty because you didn’t wanna have town hall meetings on my terms!!!”
i watched the whole exchange on why they attack each other and if they’d talk about it face to fact. i don’t think mccain did much to damage him, he had no new info and obama addressed each issue. mccain is acting childish in what i’ve seen since the beginning when he was winning
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my
McCain’s answer will be interesting for this question
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 8:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
heh
Obama is trying really hard not to say the word “experience” as a reason Biden > Palin.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what was the question?
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain
is one of the biggest smart asses i have ever seen.
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Oct 15, 2008 8:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yah
He’s just throwing as many punches as he can trying to see if one can connect. He’s playing like he has nothing to lose.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because really he doesnt
hes how far behind, and needs a hail mary to win
so might as well air it out lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Breath of fresh air?
Look across the table.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 15, 2008 8:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"America has gotten to know Sarah Palin"
lol…
A.) Not true, she’s talked to what, 3 media types?
B.) The more we’ve found out, the worse it’s been for you, John.
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 8:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You know
I wonder why I put myself through the continual beating of watching these things.
That 20 minute exchange about “Joe the Plumber” was an extended exercise in demonstrating a policy difference between the two that’s been very public for quite some time.
Boring. I’m watching South Park.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 8:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If McCain wins
your new secretary of defense: Joe the Plumber.
He loves this guy.
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Joe the Plumber is pissing me the F off.
No more Joe the Plumber references. Please.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm one more Joe the Plumber reference away from turning this off.
McCain is just pissing me off at this point.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
joe six pack
is getting jealous
and so is suzy the moose, soccer mom and my pitbull with lipstick. mavericks love it though.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama's in prevent defense.
He’s happy to run out the clock. Obama’s trying to duck punches, but to him, a draw is a win.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They should have a BS Debate
with questions like
“Ketchup or Mustard?”
“George or Kramer?”
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Obama will pick Ketchup.
McCain will claim that Obama’s only picking ketchup because terrorists love ketchup, and choose mustard.
Obama will say that McCain has supported Bush’s mustard policies for the past eight years.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a good one
“If you could take a running punch at one of your opponent’s body parts, which one would it be?”
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd prefer one where they were forced to answer the freaking questions.
“How much do you think you can reduce dependency on foreign oil in your first four years? Give me a specific number as a target.”
Guess whether or not either of them gave anything resembling a number to that question.
God I hate political debates.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was an unanswerable question
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most probably, yes.
But neither of them even tried or even tried to address why that question was unanswerable. They just did that annoying politician thing where they make a quick vague reference to the basic premise of a question and then go off on a tangent that allows them to slam the other guy.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When McCain met JTP
JTP must have let him bump uglies with his wife.
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
don't tax my health plan!!!
reduce my costs???
i think we all know who wins on that subject.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
drudge poll!
{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE FINAL PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?…
MCCAIN
75% 9,325
OBAMA
24% 2,990
NEITHER
2% 199
Total Votes: 12,514
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
MUST BE TRUE!
Shit, Obama’s done.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is the drudge poll always the same
seriously last time it was 75-24.
by cashman on Oct 15, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
on the litmus test
wouldn’t it be nice if candidates were honest for once.
we KNOW obama would appoint a pro choice justice. and mccain would appoint a pro life justice. just admit it.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pro-Abortion
No such thing, McCain.
Pro-choice? Yes.
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a lot of people seem to think
that there is some welfare lady in some ghetto that gets knocked up 3 or 4 times a year and then gets an abortion just for fun
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some welfare lady in some ghetto
couldn’t afford 3 to 4 abortions a year. They are not cheap.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but see
anti-choice taxpayers are probably paying for it unwillingly
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably how they see it
I just think there’s a huge misconception about the pro-choice stance. (No pun intended.)
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That drives me crazy too
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Nobody likes abortion.
And he mentioned adoption as if that is always a 100% solution. Memo to John McCain: everyone likes adoption. Nobody is against you on that.
That’s like saying, “I want to protect puppies! My opponent voted against puppies five times!”
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama's record
seems to indicate otherwise. And his words:
"I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby."
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever.
Obama was talking about sex education, not abortion, when he made that statement. That is not a pro-abortion statement, it is a pro-sex education statement. The “punishment” is coming from the people who would deny sex education to youth other than abstinence. Abstinence-only kids have sex just as much as others, it ain’t working.
Meanwhile McCain votes against measures that would protect women from domestic violence. McCain thinks putting Palin on the ticket is going to get him women’s votes while he is anti-almost anything a majority of women support.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
How can “people who would deny sex education to youth other than abstinence” punish his daughters with a baby? The mistake would be theirs, not anyone else’s. Obama meant what he said – that a baby would be punishment to his daughters. You can’t spin that. And btw, abstinence-only kids by definition don’t have sex. Abstinence is 100% effective.
Obama has a terrible pro-abortion record. And this is a guy who doesn’t even know when life begins. Or at least he doesn’t want us to know that he knows…
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
God Help Us
Look, abstinence is obviously effective, but abstinence-only education will not. People will have sex and that’s the way it is whether you like it or not. It’s far better if they know about safe sex.
It’s funny how the “red” states — the ones all up on their moral high horses, including Texas — have the highest teen pregnancy, divorce rates, etc. When a young girl not even out of high school gets pregnant, that is a clearly a disadvantage to them because it makes it so much harder for them to educate themselves. I’ve known a few girls to get pregnant during high school and college and it was not easy for them. So, yeah, even though the baby itself may not be a punishment (they all loved their kids), the timing sure as hell was.
And nobody is pro-abortion, you zealot.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abstinence only is a failure
A long-awaited national study has concluded that abstinence-only sex education, a cornerstone of the Bush administration’s social agenda, does not keep teenagers from having sex. Neither does it increase or decrease the likelihood that if they do have sex, they will use a condom.
By the end of the study, when the average child was just shy of 17, half of both groups had remained abstinent. The sexually active teenagers had sex the first time at about age 15. Less than a quarter of them, in both groups, reported using a condom every time they had sex. More than a third of both groups had two or more partners.
The stick your head in the sand approach does not work.
As for abortion, I can think of many issues that are far more important right now. Anyone basing their vote on abortion is blindly ignoring a whole host of urgent problems that need Obama’s cool head and willingness to listen to other opinions over McCain’s knee-jerking reactionary temper.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be careful with your header
It’s not “abstinence only” that’s a failure – it’s young people making wrong choices. No education works unless it is applied. (That goes for “comprehensive sex education” as well.)
If young people remain chaste, then it works. If they ignore it and have sex, then it doesn’t work. Teaching kids things always has a varied success rate and depends on their motivation to actually apply what is taught. Teenagers generally have strong urges and weak wills. (Though I wonder how educators can expect teens to say no to drugs, yet they then hand out condoms with advice to “keep it safe.” Are not both drives equally controllable?) Abstinence-only works if the person has the good character attributes required for success – and that education begins in the home.
Another problem is that many people don’t want to teach an abstinence-only message, b/c they don’t really believe it themselves. It’s really hard to persuade someone else about what you don’t believe – and kids can see through that hypocrisy.
Concerning abortion, it is no longer mainly a “teen only” issue. The abortion problem in America is sustained primarily among fully-grown, adult women (inc. many who are married or are in committed relationships), and primarily in low-income and minority communities. So even in that sense it’s an important issue.
But even more importantly, though there are certainly many other important issues, what is more important than the right to life? ‘Choice’ in itself isn’t a value – that value depends on what is chosen. We need a culture that protects life.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure if they remain chaste it works
the argument though, is that spending the time to teach chastity is a waste of time, because it isn’t any more effective than not teaching anything at all.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 16, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
Thousands of young people can testify otherwise. There is abundant evidence that abstinence-based sex education programs work, and work well. A recent Virginia study concluded that Virginia teens who receive abstinence education are half as likely to initiate sexual activities as students who did not receive this education. And contrary to what Planned Parenthood suggests, Virginia’s abstinence programs do include information about contraception and sexually transmitted diseases. But they also put it in the proper context: that abstaining from sex is the most effective way to avoid the dangers of casual sex.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah!
We need a culture of LIFE, people. LIFE is the single most important thing in the world.
Well, unless that inscrutable, microscopic dot we call life becomes a flaming liberal. Then it’s OK, and completely justified of course, to wish death on that person.
Oh yeah, and if that little dot pushes its way out of that slimy birth canal and is subject to a life of abuse, poverty and utter cruelty? Fuck ‘em. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop suckin’ on the government teat!
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assert yourself.
It’s enough of your conclusory language.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a real slippery slope for you
One might wonder how Gov. Palin, the VP candidate you support, can support abstinence-only programs when she conceived out of wedlock and her daughter has conceived out of wedlock.
Neither her parents or herself as parent has done a very good job of promoting abstinence-only sex-ed in her own home. Do as I say and not as I do? In the case of abstinence, I’m not sure that’s a real good philosophy.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did
you hear that her eldest son was concieved out of wedlock?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 16, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's never commented on it
But, based on the dates she has provided, her oldest son would have to have been born six weeks premature in order for the conception to not have happened before her and her husband eloped.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So of course you
just assume that she got pregnant before they were married. You do realize that premature births are a common occurence.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 16, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, you could say I'm being assumptive
7.5 month pregnancy + eloping + chooses to neither confirm nor deny = if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck …
Anyhow, if you’d like to strike that statement from the record, you’re welcome to. I’ll stick by my initial assertion based on her daughter’s current situation.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Ostrich
Get your head out of the sand. Kids that receive abstinence only education – even from committed people who totally believe in it — have sex anyway at the same rate as other teens. It does not work.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See
Obama win the election on Nov. 4. You do understand that a lot of Christians, including Barack Obama, are pro-choice and approve of sex education, right?
Barack Obama is a Christian who holds his beliefs just as dearly as you hold yours.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What makes you think
that Obama is a Christian?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please tell me that was a joke.
Please. For my sanity.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 16, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Of COURSE Obama’s not a Christian. He hasn’t advocated killing John McCain. Duh. What part don’t you get?
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No joke
Go ahead and tell me why you think he’s a Christian.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama
has shown more Christian behavior than you have with your terrible, tasteless jokes.
What makes you think he isn’t? The man attends church and claims he’s a Christian. That’s all I need.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 16, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they don't go to the same church...
….therefore Him deserves the right to cast him off because of his name… if his name was john graham is christianity would NEVER be questioned…
and btw Him… are you implying that all Muslims are terrorists and evil doers? since you are trying to say barack isn’t christian, he must, and i’m guess your opinion here, be muslim, cause of his name, and therefore be a terrorist cause he’s a muslim…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
and explanation of your though would clear all that up… but you tend to make vague assertions implying such things without actual accusation…
so go ahead and explain, please. i’ve laid out several questions to several of your points and they all got brushed aside… a bit of a “i hear your point, i just don’t wanna address it cause its a tough one…” mentality… my dad, a devout catholic, was the same way…
nows the part where you question whether my father was “really” catholic…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I told one joke – don’t get carried away.
Going to church doesn’t make someone a Christian any more than going into a garage makes someone a car.
If someone claims that he/she is a Christian then it makes it so?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i believe...
from what i understand, all someone has to believe is that “jesus died for their sins” to be a christian… to far off base? and if thats true, then who are YOU to question barack obama’s faith, and more than i can question yours?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No no no
You’re not getting it. In order to be a Christian, you must agree with every political tenet of the ideology of whatever purported Christian is in your immediate vicinity.
Actually believing that Jesus died for your sins is wholly irrelevant to the question. Frankly, it’s offensive that you live in a predominantly Christian nation and you haven’t yet grasped the foundations of the religion.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
funny.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
offensive
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ivy
I have to give up the computer right now, but you have a good question there, and I’ll get back to you…
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lynchin' time, huh?
We’ve all got our priorities I guess.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Christian
is a true follower of Jesus Christ. It’s someone who has placed their faith and trust in Him, and seeks to do His will.
In the end, only God really knows peoples’ hearts, and who are the true believers. However, there are ‘evidences’ that someone is a true believer, including: the fruit of the Spirit [Galatians 5:22-23], the character of the Christian as described in the Sermon on the Mount [Matthew 5-7], and the various ‘tests’ that are sprinkled in I John (test of consciousness of sin, test of obedience, test of freedom from habitual sin, test of love for others, test of belief).
So, in other words, God will have changed that person’s life in such a way that the fruit of his/her life will show that he/she is a true follower of Christ.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So all good people go to heaven?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You tell us
You seem to think you’re qualified to judge.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I need to know
what Robert means by ‘good’ before I can answer.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you don't practice the teachings
of the Sermon on the Mount on a daily basis and pass the tests I John then you cannot go to heaven?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Follow up question
If you are saved, does that make you a Christian?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When someone becomes a Christian
God will begin to change that person from the inside out – thoughts, attitudes, etc. A believer who is truly changed will exhibit the character qualities that are described in the Sermon on the Mount (it’s a description of character rather than a set of “do’s and don’ts”).
With the I John tests it’s important to emphasize that they are talking about habitual conduct, and not one-off sins. A person who habitually lives by the precepts of those tests shows evidence of being a rue believer.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So when
does God begin to work this change in you?
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what evidence do you have that obama is less a true believer than you are 4him?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no its my turn to ask for a response.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know true believers who are
overweight?
smoke?
judgmental?
materialistic?
struggle with any type of addition?
Certainly your answer must be yes. The sins committed by these people are habitual, so therefore they cannot pass judgment with you. Fortunately, you’re not the jury.
But here’s my real problem with the way you are behaving on this board: Do you see how many people you have inflamed? Your arrogant stance and attitude have done nothing but further alienate those who — I will assume — you’re trying to reach with your Christian message.
The tone you set is counterproductive to what I will assume is your goal of participating in these discussions.
While society has made WWJD cliche, if anyone needs to think about WWJD before they speak/post, its you.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Robert
the things you mentioned are not the tests of I John – don’t confuse the issue.
I am not the jury, nor I am the judge – God is. What I’ve shared here is His truth, not mine. If anyone is ‘inflamed’, then it is toward God Himself. Where is the arrogant tone that you are talking about?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
What I’ve shared here is His truth, not mine. If anyone is ‘inflamed’, then it is toward God Himself.
That comment seems somewhat Koreshian in nature.
It appears that you have a desire to share your views on faith. Unfortunately your inability to relate or sympathize with those who don’t share the same views have kept you from being an effective communicator. It’s a common issue with theological egoists.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
but Koresh had nothing to do with God’s truth.
Unfortunately your inability to relate or sympathize with those who don’t share the same views…
Is that so? Well then, given the impersonal nature of such a blog, how do you propose that I do this? And how have you related and sympathized with me?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your holier than thou
comments here hardly inspire sympathy. None of us have a monopoly on “true” faith. I could be totally wrong and you could be totally right, but none of us is qualified to say so.
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am simple sharing
truth from the Bible, which is God’s Word. That is the standard of true faith. So instead of putting labels on me, I suggest that you take it up with God by searching the Scriptures for yourself.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your goal
and that would be considering sympathizing. I’ve tried to explain from a factual perspective that the way you communicate is counterproductive. I can’t do any more than that and there’s no sense in continuing this dialogue with a religious egoist. There’s nothing that I can say that stop you from alienating those you seemingly wish to reach.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to understand you
Instead of calling me names, show me where I’ve exhibited an arrogant tone. How have I communicated in a counterproductive way?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's how
I am simple sharing truth from the Bible, which is God’s Word.
Statements like that make it seem you think you have the one, correct and true interpretation of the Bible. That is an extremely arrogant stance for any Christian. You do not have a monopoly on Truth. We are all aware of the concept of Grace.
All of your posts today imply that Obama is somehow not a Christian. If he says he is, why should I doubt it anymore than I doubt McCain’s profession of faith?
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by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck
I’ve given up. I try very hard to keep to myself and generally stay civil, but hypocrisy is my Kryptonite.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is
only one Truth. There is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” He proved His uniqueness by dying on the cross and rising again, taking on the punishment that we deserved b/c of our sins.
No other religion can point to a moment in history and say, “This is what God has done for us.” No other religion tells us how God took the initiative to save us. Religion is man’s way of trying to reach God through good works. Christianity is God taking the initiative to reach down to us and offering us a free gift – forgiveness and eternal life. That’s what grace is all about.
The question about Obama would require a much longer answer, but on this particular issue (the uniqueness of Christ) he has indicated that people from other religions are “children of God” and that being a ‘good’ person can get someone into heaven. In other words, he is suggesting that Jesus Christ is not the only way to heaven and a relationship with Him.
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, so your position
is that because Obama shows respect for other religions, a founding principle of our country, he is somehow not Christian.
And are you saying that people who do not believe are not children of God? All people on earth are children of God, even though not all of them are either aware of it or have accepted it.
And when you delve into Grace vs. actions, you are talking about a theological point that religious scholars have argued about for 2000 years. I don’t see how you can use that to say Obama isn’t a Christian.
If you polled every Christian in this country, many would share the view point expressed in Obama’s statement, either out of ignorance or because they were actually taught that in church or Sunday school.
I seriously doubt you have examined McCain’s statements in such detail. You are selectively judging the faith of Obama only because he is a Democrat. And you contradict your own statements in doing so. If Obama truly believes, he is saved by God’s grace EVEN IF he says the statement you use above.
God does not require a Christian to be doctrinally correct to be saved. We only must believe. Doctrine is something agreed to in a committee of men and subject to interpretation. God alone can give grace.
Stop trying to pass judgment on Obama’s faith and stop trying to give all of us unwashed heathens the true word as interpreted by you.
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by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't confuse
being respectful of other religions with the exclusiveness of the salvation message. One can respect other religions (which contain some truth as well), but that doesn’t take away from the fact that there is only one way to a relationship with God, and that is through Jesus Christ. People (however sincere) have all kinds of false concepts about God, but the God of the Bible has clearly revealed Himself and proven Himself to be the one true God.
So the only true “children of God” are those who have placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. John 1:12 explains: But as many as received Him (Jesus), to them He gave the right to become children of God." All people are created by God, but they become his children when they take that step of faith and become believers.
That is a basic teaching that a Christian should know, and Obama has said other things about the Bible that clearly show that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Which leads to another issue – his church. Not only does it seem that he didn’t receive solid teaching from the Word of God, but he actually sat under a racist preacher for over 20 years. If I have enough time, I will try to write more about this.
I don’t know if John McCain is a true Christian, but I haven’t seen evidences that he might not be. With Obama, as I’ve said, I have serious doubts.
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"True" Christian
There is no such thing. Stop trying to be the arbiter of true faith.
If I have enough time, I will try to write more about this.
Spare us, please. You have said more than enough already. I get it. You alone (or your church I guess) know what a true Christian is, and anyone who says anything that does not fit your doctrine is not a true Christian.
You are the most spiritually arrogant person I have come across in a very long time. You would have made a good Pharisee.
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by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
Spare us, please.
Absolutely agree. 4Him please spare us your comments. Not just on this issue, but your opinions in general. The whole point of this was to try and determine why you think Obama isn’t a Christian. Evidently his reason is “I don’t want to vote for him”.
You have successfully hijacked this thread and turned it into a religious discussion. I’m all for constructive debating but it’s hopeless with you. You cherry pick your arguements, spin the conversation and ignore direct questions. Please. Stop. Posting.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 17, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another promoter of tolerance
I hijacked the thread? Look, I simply responded to people’s questions and comments as I had time. Whether people had true interest or simply wanted to attack me, you can judge for yourself.
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem
Was with your assumption on Obama’s faith, which you have done a terrible job of communicating and elaborating on. tball summed up everything else.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 17, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you don't get it
It’s not about what I know, it’s about what God’s Word teaches. Show me something that I’ve shared here which isn’t true based on what the Bible teaches. There are thousands of churches which faithfully teach the Word of God.
You know, I have consistently responded to you on this blog b/c I saw you as someone who, despite having a worldview which is far different from mine, would at least seek to attack ideas, and not the person (unlike many on here, bg being the worst). I guess I was wrong about that, and you have also shown yourself to be incredibly intolerant.
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have
No ideas, save those that you’ve invented in order to speak for God, which I find most disgusting and, in a way, amusing.
by brettgardner on Oct 17, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I get it.
It’s about Grace, and you seem to think that Obama’s politics are more important than God’s grace. You have the nerve to judge someone else’s faith, and just coincidentally, that person happens to be on the opposite side of the politicial spectrum as you. I find that arrogant and convenient.
You don’t agree with Obama’s politics so you slander his faith credentials. You accuse me of attacking you, yet all I’m doing is calling you out for attacking Obama’s faith, which you have no standing to do.
Every comment you post just makes you seem even more obtuse. You don’t get it. It is NOT UP TO YOU to judge someone’s faith. Just stop.
Disagree with someone’s politics, fine. Debate Christian doctrine, fine, but don’t assume that you are “right” and everyone else is wrong on doctrine. Doctrine is simply man’s interpretation of God’s word, and you are confusing it with God’s word.
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by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What
“doctrine of man” have I espoused here? Can you articulate it? Again, I have simply shared what God’s Word says. If you can’t receive what the Bible says, then you’ve got a real problem on your hands.
Many politicians claim that they are Christians, for obvious reasons. Obama is running for the highest office in the land. As a believer, I want to know how real his faith is (with God’s Word, the Bible, being the standard). He should be for the things that God is for, and against the things that God is against.
Obama espouses that there are many ways to God, when God clearly says that there is only one way to Him (through Jesus Christ). He is the most pro-abortion major-party candidate for President in American history (including support for the barbaric procedure known as partial birth abortion). God is absolutely pro-life.
What about his character? Character matters. And bad company reflects character. Obama has had long-term associations with people like convicted felon Tony Rezko, unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers and rev. Jeremiah Wright. Unbelievably, he sat for over twenty years as a disciple of Wright, who repeatedly spewed hatred, racism and anti-American statements.
While Obama may not agree with the incendiary views of Wright and Ayers, it’s alarming that he tolerated them for so long. At minimum, he has shown very poor judgment. And having good judgment is something that is very important for a President.
If you want to vote for someone like Obama, that’s your choice. But don’t tell me that I can’t have an opinion about his faith.
by 4Him on Oct 18, 2008 2:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ayers, Wright, etc.
So, it’s ok that McCain calls G. Gordon Liddy a friend even though Liddy advised people to deal with ATF agents by shooting them? That seems even worse to me than anything Ayers or Wright have done, but no one is calling out McCain on that.
And yes, it is wrong for you to question Obama’s faith. It is perfectly alright for you to disagree with his theology but you go beyond that and actually questioned his faith. That’s a line you can’t cross in my view.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 18, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
that you’re making a false dichotomy here. I’m not questioning his freedom to have faith – I’m questioning what he believes. That is his theology, right?
Faith is only as good as the object that it’s placed in. The object of that faith must be trustworthy. We don’t need just opinions about God, but we need to know the truth. It’s the truth that sets us free. Truth means that there is ultimate reality, ultimate meaning. There is something that is objectively true, and we need to respond to the God who exists objectively.
Fortunately, God wants us to know what he’s like. 2000 years ago He became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. In John 18:37, Jesus said, This is why I was born and came into the world. To tell people the truth." The truth sets people free from false ideas about God.
So if someone has a belief system that doesn’t match up with the God of the Bible, then it’s not true.
by 4Him on Oct 19, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Obama said
in the latest debate that he did not support late-term or partial birth abortion.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 18, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surely
you don’t believe whatever Obama (or other politicians) might say in a debate (such as the “tax break for 95% of Americans” gimmick). What’s much more telling is his pro-abortion record, which is appalling.
Obama has said that his first act should he become President would be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act. Unfortunately, the lip service that the pro-abort side pays to "abortion should be rare" is just that – lip service. Every effort to reduce the number of abortions has been opposed, and the mere existence of the Freedom of Choice Act proves it. People aren’t fooled – or at least they shouldn’t be.
by 4Him on Oct 19, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumbshit.
That quote is completely out of context. The question he was asked was, essentially, what is your plan to restore some of the pro-choice gains lost in the SCOTUS decision of Gonzales v. Carhart. He answered, inartfully, that the first thing he’d do to combat that particular issue is pass the FOCA.
But I’m sure you don’t care about any view other than the one you’ve latched onto from some other nutty racist.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold the phone
If god said the only way is through christ, then why did he write qu’ran?
by cashman on Oct 22, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so if there was a person who is of a another religion
and has not done any bad deeds in their entire life, they would not go to heaven because they didn’t except JC?
by cashman on Oct 17, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't go down that path
You know what he’s going to say.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 17, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one is perfect
Everyone has sinned, whether in word, thought or deed. The Bible is very clear about that:
No one is good – not even one. (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious standard. (Rom 3:23)
That’s why we need a Savior. That’s why we need Jesus Christ.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not every human
in the world is a Christian. It’s a fact. So you’re gonna have to except that other people have differing opinions. You can’t say that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. Because you don’t know that. If you actually believe in God and are a Christian, then you would know that he is the only one that would know this. Not a spare blogger on LSB.
BTW anybody remember the greatness of “Huck” a couple years ago? I think this might be the same guy.
by AirJordan on Oct 17, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The issue of salvation
isn’t about who has what opinion. It’s about God’s plan for us as specified in His Word, the Bible. And God clearly says that the only way to have a relationship with him (and eternal life) is through Jesus Christ.
Maybe you missed the John 14:6 verse from an earlier post. Here is another (among many):
The apostle Peter, speaking about Jesus: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
by 4Him on Oct 18, 2008 3:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
4Him's RHETORIC DRUM
him… until you actually answer the questions your being asked without deflecting to the same answer all you’re doing is giving christians a bad name… you can’t be asked a straight question about a statement you made question obama’s religious stance a deflect deflect deflect without answer the question… it just shows a lack of substance… i’ll give you one more shot at a respectable answer…
FINAL CHANCE:when you questioned whether obama was christian. from what you’ve written, you’re in no position to judge whether he is, or isn’t. only "god" can make that decision. yet you question(judge) the validity of his statement he is.
clarify your stance on how you can question Obama’s christianity.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget this passage
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Or maybe Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Who do you think you are to judge someone else’s faith?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slow down
t ball. I wanted to get to your other comment, but I guess I’ll reply to you here now.
Just b/c someone says that he/she is a Christian doesn’t make it so. As mentioned above, in the end only God really knows a person’s heart, but you can have a good idea based on the spiritual fruit (or lack thereof) in a person’s life.
So far, I haven’t even said what I think about Obama’s spiritual condition (but everyone jumped on me anyway). You made the claim that he’s a Christian, so I ask you again – on what basis do you think so?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely assinine.
so, if only god knows, are you a christian? how do you know if only god knows? how can you dare say you are to anyone, since that would be presuming to know gods thoughts…
you use flawed logic. but then again, you think the world was created in 6 days.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
My question would be, if you don’t know, why ask the original question? And what the hell is spiritual fruit?
This guy is a way out there holier than thou type who thinks he knows what’s best for everyone and ends up turning people away from the religion, which really sucks because if one reads what Jesus had to say it’s very tolerant.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I gave you an answer, now answer my question please
Besides his stance on abortion what has he done specifically that would lead you to believe he is incapable of being a Christian?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone
is capable of being a Christian – he/she must simply be willing to trust in Christ and follow Him. Grace means that salvation is a free gift that we must simply receive by faith.
If have time, I will answer by responding to your comment below.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On what basis do I think Obama is a Christian?
Because he says he is, just like you, I, and John McCain, do. Who am I to doubt him?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And one other thing.
So far, I haven’t even said what I think about Obama’s spiritual condition (but everyone jumped on me anyway).
You would not have asked the question if you did not think there was some doubt. You are coming off here as spiritually arrogant.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
Yes. If someone claims they are a Christian that’s all I need to know. There’s no reason to question someones faith. In fact, it’s pretty despicable.
What do you want him to do, take a freaking bible test? You are a joke.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 16, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hallelujah.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bible Test
I read that one of the primary debates, I believe it was a republican one, asked each guy to name their favorite Bible verse.
by JBImaknee on Oct 16, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a dirty, dirty left-leaning moderate...
…and I have a favorite Bible verse.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 16, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judge not, lest ye be judged, my friend
You are the type that give us who do have sincere convictions a bad name.
Your piety gives you no right to judge someone’s faith.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not the one he has a problem with.
stop redirecting. you caused this fire, don’t avoid the flames.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
I can only reply to one person at a time – not ten at once.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a great point
and another thing to point out those who want to pass judgment is to remember that God did not reserve his greatest wrath for sinners, non-believers, adulterers or even thieves or murderers. His greatest wrath was reserved for the self righteous. Christians who want to be holier-than-thou should heed this lesson, as it is in the Bible and (imho) isn’t open to the (mis?)interpretation that so many other lessons in the Book fall to.
by Melmart1 on Oct 16, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you've passed judgement.
when you questioned whether obama was christian. from what you’ve written, you’re in no position to judge whether he is, or isn’t. only “god” can make that decision. yet you question(judge) the validity of his statement he is.
i’m begging you to respond to me. as you seem to avoid all my direct questions.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like many others
I do have a life outside of this blog. I respond when I can.
As I said, I haven’t even given my opinion yet on what I think of Obama’s spiritual condition (and given people’s hysteria here, I don’t know if I will). Some of you (starting w/t ball) have claimed that Obama is a Christian, and I have simply asked on what basis y’all can make that claim. The overall response has been: “Because he says so.” But saying that you are a Christian doesn’t make you a Christian – that’s God’s contention as outlined in His Word, not mine. So if you consider that as passing judgment, then so be it.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I try not to respond directly to you
…but I have to this time.
The mere fact that you think you could even have an opinion on Obama’s “spiritual condition” is absolutely ridiculous. Can you not see that? Unless you’ve been withholding, as far as I know you’ve never met the man. All you know about him is what you see through the media. You have no basis for opinion, period.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
but others can say that Obama is a Christian even though they’ve never met him. Gotcha.
That was my one response to you.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize
That Christianity is an organized religion, right? It’s not a “quality”. Thus, if one professes to follow the teachings of a particular religion, that’s what he is.
What you’re talking about is how “good” of a Christian he is. No wonder you’re lost.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
My comment was about the “spiritual condition” of Barack Obama, something that is totally outside of any of us to ascertain.
And I agree that if someone says they’re a Christian, then yes I take their word for it ESPECIALLY if I don’t know them.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when do you lose credibility?
What makes you think that Obama is a Christian?
when you start saying your facts are true and mine aren’t….
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much credibility does 4Him have on religion?
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 16, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll answer
I have no reason to believe that he’s not. He made a public declaration of his faith, who am I to judge whether he is sincere or not.
If you believe that you have a moral right or — worse yet — obligation to judge another man’s faith then I would wonder about your guiding principles more than I would Obama’s.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you not think
Obama is a Christian? Who are you to judge his faith? He may not share your exact beliefs, but if you want anyone to respect your beliefs you need to return the favor. I am not surprised, though, that you feel you have a monopoly on “true” faith.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do I think he's a Christian?
The same reason I think John McCain is a Christian. The same reason I think George Bush is a Christian. The same reason I think my mom is a Christian. The same reason I think you are a Christian.
You have outwardly expressed your Christian faith, and proclaimed Christ as your Lord. That makes him, and John, and George, and my mom, and you, a Christian.
To claim that he’s not would be pure speculation without evidence. That would be like me saying that you are a Muslim: pure speculation without evidence.
Beyond that, who the hell am I to judge who is a Christian and who is not? I can’t read into peoples’ hearts. All I know is the evidence, which is overwhelmingly that Barack Obama is a Christian.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 16, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
waiting on my response?
i believe ght was being jestful… you take him seriously… i wasn’t talking about your credibility with religion… frankly i don’t think there is credibility in religion when every side thinks their the only way and everyone is a fool… i was saying you lose credibility in any arguement when someone brings up a counterpoint and you disregard it with a broad sweeping generalization and misplace the focus of the conversation.
“what makes you think that Obama is christian?”… what are we supposed to draw from that little morsal. it was very inciteful and cleared up any issue you might have. bravo.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
…i don’t think i know ANYONE who is “Pro-Abortion”… a “hey abortions for everyone… no new babies… death to babies…”
its Pro-Choice. plain and simple. quality of life and existence of life are not interdependent though… i can’t see how having a child after you’ve been sexually assaulted, having to carry it to term, being reminded everyday for 9 mo’s of that experience and then giving that kid up for adoption, in a system where tens of thousands of children are waiting to be adopted… how is that good for anyone??
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
the vast majority of abortions don’t happen as a result of the extremely rare cases such as you mentioned. By far the biggest reason is convenience.
The bottom line is that abortion is murder. We need a culture of life that protects all of our citizens – including the unborn.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love
Your bare assertions.
Mr. Abortion Expert.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well...
….the whole abortion is murder thing really is a beat down… murder of what… if its done in the first term its hard to say that its murder… if you are saying from conception its murder, well, its hard to call that life, at that point its just dividing cells, which can happen in a peitrie dish… as far as citizens, you aren’t a citizen of this country til you’re a) born and get a social security number, or b) pass the immigration and naturalization test, and receive your social security number… either way, the unborn are far from US citizens yet…
and back to my first point: “rare” cases aside, do you think a rape victim shouldn’t be allowed to terminate her pregnancy?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's only murder
if you believe life begins at conception, and that is the fundamental difference between pro-life and pro-choice advocates. Pro-lifers believe life begins with the fertilized egg, pro-choicers believe it begins much later.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 16, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The facts
of medical research make clear that life begins at conception (all data and material for life being present at that moment).
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are free to think that
but you cannot dictate to others what they must believe.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
I can’t dictate to others what they must believe. But we are responsible to our Creator. Taking the lives of all those innocent ones (in the USA alone over 40 million, more than 1.3 million per year) breaks God’s heart, and those responsible will one day be held to account.
by 4Him on Oct 17, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes.
So you’re the guy who kills doctors who perform abortions, then?
Why not—after all, you have the ability to speak for God, apparently. You might as well act for Him too, right?
by brettgardner on Oct 17, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
I’m anti-abortion, but it freaking sickens me to listen to all the Christ zealots using their perverted zombie-based logic to make their (and, by extension, my) case on the subject.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 18, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
…“all data and material for life being present at that moment”…
thats inane… all material and need for life is present in a corpse… but without a heartbeat, they aren’t alive… sorry… i don’t care how many times you want to redefine it, and i-have-the-“true”-answer it… life starts the same time it ends… heartbeat… “material and data” don’t matter if embryo never develops a heartbeat….
and you never answered my question: do you support making a woman carry the child of her rapist?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 17, 2008 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
I like your post, but it’s missing something. Hmm…what could it be?
Ah yes. It needs a racially-tinged knee-slapper which intimates that Obama deserves to be assassinated.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
your personal attacks are not impressive.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Impressive?
I’m not trying to impress anybody. I just think you’re a racist faux-Christian, and you disgust me.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 7:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh-huh
a racist. You’re a real winner, aren’t you?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a loser
Unquestionably. But I don’t wish death on people I disagree with.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nor do I
I also don’t make personal attacks on people who I disagree with.
Are you by any chance related to John Murtha?
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
God the irony.
I’m not a politician, so you’re not scaring me off with this talk of “personal attacks.” I feel no shame in calling you an ignorant bigot who does a great disservice to the religion he purports to follow.
But hey, why even bother responding to me? Aren’t there dirty liberals that need to be blamed?
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you referencing here, BG?
What did he say?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 16, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His cute
Little email “joke” about killing Obama. The “punchline” is that murdering a man you disagree with would be not only acceptable, but understandable.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, how cute.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 16, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see
that you missed the main point of the joke. It isn’t about “murdering a man you disagree with.” It’s about the President thinking that he is so high and mighty that the deaths of the others are of no consequence.
No wonder you are so lost here, and your petty insults are so baseless.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullshit.
I’m not one of your rube friends rocking on the porch.
Bu since I’m so lost, what does this mean, exactly?
Finally, at the back of the room, Little Johnny raised his hand. In a quiet voice he said:
‘If the plane carrying you and Mrs. Obama was struck by a ‘friendly fire’ missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy.’
‘Fantastic!’ exclaimed Obama. ‘That’s right. And can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?’
’Well,’ says the boy, ‘It has to be a tragedy because it certainly wouldn’t be a great loss…and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.’
That sounds like the punchline to me, schmuck.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my only question is
would people be saying the same thing if the joke was this?-
Finally, at the back of the room, Little Johnny raised his hand. In a quiet voice he said:
‘If the plane carrying you and Mrs. Bush was struck by a ‘friendly fire’ missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy.’
‘Fantastic!’ exclaimed Bush. ‘That’s right. And can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?’
’Well,’ says the boy, ‘It has to be a tragedy because it certainly wouldn’t be a great loss…and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.’
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I can’t say that I don’t have a bias. I’m human, therefore I can’t help it. But I will say that, IMO, there is a significantly higher level of aggressiveness and what I would call over the line behavior from the right then from the left. I think much of that behavior is stoked by the neo-con radio talking heads like Hannity, Mark Levin, Rush, Mike Church and John Gibson. I’m not saying that any of them wish ill on anyone. But I do think that they use extremely aggressive talking points in an effort to incite their listeners in a way that doesn’t happen on left-leaning programs.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't
Be stupid. You think I’m in love with Obama or something? I’d be just as outraged if some gospel-spreading liberal mushhead made that joke about Bush.
I don’t want Bush dead, so find a better way to defend that horrid joke.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im not defending it
i dont think you like obama
it was a general question, not one that was you-specific
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The exact same joke
was used with Bush’s name years ago.
by 4Him on Oct 16, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talking to you.
Is like talking to a brick wall.
Or Longhorn.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 16, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just as
Dumb then, too.
I honestly feel sorry for you. Tell the truth—you were molested as a child, right?
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that might be the worst defense for a bad joke i've ever heard...
seriously?! you take that joke and say its about how distant he is as a leader… not how insensitive people can be about people they don’t like or accept…
assinine.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 16, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having a baby is "punishment"?
If any woman thinks that, please, get an abortion.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 16, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
Nobody is fucking pro-abortion! Get it right, McCain!
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He knows that
he just says “PRO abortion” because that riles up the far right religious types for whom abortion is a major issue. It’s a tactic.
by Melmart1 on Oct 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen, Mel
I was just gonna say that.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The worst part is
is that this is simply PANDERING. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned. Never ever ever. But they use it as a wedge issue and that drives me up the wall. Just like gay marriage is used … there are bigger fish to fry, but if you can siphon votes from people who are afraid of the Queen next door getting health insurance from his husband’s plan, then they will do it.
by Melmart1 on Oct 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, Amen
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"They" use as an issue?
Meaning Democrats, right? Liberal? Pro-abortion choice groups?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 16, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's the point?
i would imagine that he should be trying to get the independent vote. independents that place much importance on that issue already know who they will vote for. getting into that benefits nobody.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
and im a member of the religious right lol
that said, what did you expect him to do? be nice?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 16, 2008 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uninteresting Debate
Obama’s clearly not hitting McCain; he’s instead defending himself where applicable and that reflects his position in the polls. McCain’s is Rob Deere, swinging hard…sometimes connecting and sometimes missing.
I don’t like these debate formats. I would actually like to see discussions meander with the candidates talking for longer periods of time. Each candidate gets equal time. I believe this is the way it was done before television. To say “here’s a question, go!” is kind of stupid. I’d rather get into these candidates’ heads more. I mean the only other interaction we get with them is through stump speeches and TV ads.
Anyway, they’re on the last question now. I guess if I had to call a “winner” it would be McCain, but it wasn’t a knockout or anything like that. It doesn’t change anything. Really nothing has been said in this debate that hasn’t in the last two with the exception of the Supreme Court nominees, and I don’t think most of us learned anything on that one.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 9:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this one has been more interesting than the other two
Not that they set the bar very high.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It hasn't been interesting in a policy sense
At least to me. McCain’s aggressiveness and bizarre, out of place mentions about autism and such have been interesting like a car wreck is interesting.
The spending freeze is also completely nonsense.
by Black Francis on Oct 15, 2008 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yuppers
The town hall debate or whatever that one was was the absolute worst. I watched like 30 seconds. Brutal.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First 20 minutes? McCain won.
Everything else? The black guy.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
up until it got to the point where bob asked about the dirty politiking, mccain was winning. obama was solid after that. then again, i wasn’t able to watch the whole thing, probably half of it here and htere.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of how much you watched...
…you nailed it. The “dirty tactics” segment was the turning point.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the black guy?
don’t you mean THAT ONE
by cashman on Oct 15, 2008 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
the messiah.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Oct 16, 2008 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fir the last time, HE'S NOT ARAB!
He’s a god family man!
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 16, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops...
Should have been “good”.
I almost like the typo better, though.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 16, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Reagan
was the Messiah?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is
He’s just waiting for Nancy to join him beyond the pearly gates so that she can tell him when to return.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not black
he’s a decent family man!
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've loved
That kind of false dichotomy. This whole thing is so silly.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate Silver (of Baseball Prospectus fame) on FiveThirtyEight.com
Massive gender gap on the dials in many answers. In short: women are thinking Obama’s winning in a landslide. Men: mixed.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McCain's really combative.
That’ll definitely work with people…who were going to vote for him anyway.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ALRIGHT, SAME QUESTION FOR THE LAST DEBATE!!!
PUT THE SCORE OF THIS DEBATE INTO BASEBALL SCORE FORM!
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Obama 3, McCain 2
McCain scored 2 early runs, but a solid Obama bullpen shuts em down late while the offense does just enough to win.
by cmkelly29 on Oct 15, 2008 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
HA!
Winnar. +1. Rec. Everything.
At the very least, just for effort.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no effort
well actually minimal effort. i’m quick at spreadsheets and all, but it did take me about 3 mintues to start it and post it
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally, totally worth it.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he gets a sac fly
for saying, “senator obama, i am not president bush”
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in the boxscore
McCain charged the mound — even though he was pitching.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha
Nice work!
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 15, 2008 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
darn it, i screwed up
technically obama would not have scored 2 runs in the bottom of the 9th because he was already in the lead.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 15, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Padding his lead, that's all.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real winner tonight?
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:34 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
heh
I just wish his hat said Joe.
Still, rec.
The JTP shit was nails on a chalkboard.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 15, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe The Plumber
Just became part of American political lore.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved this debate. This was by far the most interesting debate of the three
Great content
by joe the plumber on Oct 15, 2008 9:50 PM CDT reply actions 6 recs
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
WIN!
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another point
for rec’ing the diary.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder whos idea that was
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Oct 16, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Much hotter in person.
She came to my campus a couple years ago and spoke. Ooooooh doctor.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Her,
Amy Holmes, and to a lesser extent Campbell Brown make CNN very watchable for me.
by brettgardner on Oct 15, 2008 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They've got the market cornered on hot journalists.
Although Contessa Brewer on MSNBC and Julie Banderas on Fox News aren’t hard on the eyes.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Wikipedia - all over the map
María de la Soledad Teresa O’Brien1 (born September 19, 1966 in St. James, New York) is a television journalist of Irish Australian and Afro-Cuban heritage.
by my on Oct 15, 2008 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per FiveThirtyEight
11:04 EDT: [Nate] MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.
11:02 EDT: [Nate] CNN poll from the tee-vee: Obama 58, McCain 31.
11:00 EDT: [Nate] CBS undecideds: Obama 53, McCain 22.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Oct 15, 2008 10:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
joetheplumber.com - actual website in Amarillo
by my on Oct 15, 2008 10:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, we know at least one voter's health care
won’t fall through the cracks.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 15, 2008 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was an interesting debate
all post-debate analysis and interpretation is pretty useless at this point. I firmly believe that anyone who is talking is too invested in this election one way or another to fairly declare that on of them “won” last night. Everyone saw in that debate what you wanted to see – a charismatic/cavalier Obama or an on the offense/just plain offensive McCain. “Scoring points” and “talking on the issues” doesn’t mean squat if you don’t think they are sincere. Nonetheless, it was an enjoyable watch, unlike the previous ones.
Fundamentally, the issue in this election is simple – do you trust Obama? This isn’t a question of whether he’s evil or a bad person or has bad intentions for the country. Just, do you trust that Obama is going to do what he says, or do you think he will give in to the Pelosi power structure of his party? The platforms on which Obama is campaigning are so fundamentally moderate that he will win any election if people believe he’ll follow through on them (as Bill Kristol said, when a Democrat can run on tax cuts, its not going to be much of an election). So the question is not “Are Obama’s ideas good?” The question is “will he actually cut taxes meaningfully?” or will he declare that the budget is too weak to allow it?
Honestly, I don’t know whether to believe Obama or not. I am worried enough that he’ll be a rubber stamp on Pelosi/Frank/Reid/Schumer’s bad policies that I doubt I could ever vote for him. John McCain has never said a single thing to make me think he’ll be any better. The election is a referendum on Barack Obama.
by JBImaknee on Oct 16, 2008 12:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So, Joe the Plumber...
Is a tax cheat who isn’t even registered to vote, and is a relative, by marriage, to Charles Keating.
Talk about an awful plant.
by venturafearsnolan on Oct 16, 2008 1:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One thing I was wrong about...
He is registered, it was just a typo at the registration office. The other points still stand.
by venturafearsnolan on Oct 16, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his name is Sam.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you forget
that he isn’t a licensed plumber. don’t hire him!!!!
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
John McCain just wrecked that poor guy's life
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he'll be okay
he’s about to buy a $250,000 business, pay your damn $1200 in taxes fool!!
get a license!!!
unless it was just a lie
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plant?
Wasn’t he in his front yard?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 16, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's highly unlikely
he was a plant, but I think McCain made a strategy error in talking too much about him in the debate. I also think he’s wrong if he thinks most Americans are going to feel sorry for a guy with his situation.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think...
it would be unfortunate if most Americans didn’t feel for someone in that situation.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 16, 2008 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but I saw
some fact check reports that said he’d be better off under Obama, why should I feel sorry for him? I’m sorry he has to be a single dad, but I’m not sorry he’s a successful businessman.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 16, 2008 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sorry he's a successful business man...
You should be, it’s an absolutely royal screwjob in terms of tax treatment.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 16, 2008 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I think
the entire tax code should be ripped up, but I’m not going to cry for the wealthiest 3%. And as someone who gets a significant portion of his income from self-employment, I hate the payroll tax crap. But I don’t see why those making over $102,000 shouldn’t have to pay it if I do. The tax code is a joke, and both Obama’s and McCain’s budget ideas are downright kooky. Voodoo economics, even.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FactCheck.org says
He fudged the numbers and is eligible for a tax cut under Obama’s plan:
McCain said "Joe the plumber" faced "much higher taxes" under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers. But Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher would pay higher taxes only if the business he says he wants to buy puts his income over $200,000 a year, and his small business would be exempt from Obama’s requirement to provide coverage for workers.
Update Oct. 16: ABC News reported the morning after the debate that Wurzelbacher admitted to a reporter that he won’t actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama’s higher tax rates. ABC said his admission “would seem to indicate that he would be eligible for an Obama tax cut.”
I still wouldn’t feel sorry for someone who makes over $250,000, the usual threshold quoted for a raise in taxes under Obama’s plan. Both of their plans seem a bit irresponsible, but I just can’t abide McCain’s plan to give the biggest tax cuts — by percentage as well as dollar amount — to millionaires. To offer those making more than $2.87M a 4.4% tax break is just vulgar.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thos millionaires...
pay most of the taxes. Most people don’t pay any federal taxes at all. So for “most people” to whine about wealthy Americans getting tax cuts strikes me as vulgar.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Middle class incomes
have stagnated while the wealthy have been able to enjoy great increases, they have nothing to complain about in recent years. Raising their taxes is probably not the answer in addressing that, but the trickle down theory seems a failure. The income disparity needs to be addressed, but I doubt politicians have the stomach to seriously examine the complex issues that are causing it, whatever they are. I’m not sure that anyone can point with certainty to one or two factors.
I don’t like either tax plan, but I’m encouraged by Obama’s seeming dictum to pay as you go, something Republicans seem to have dropped along the way. If the Republicans were actually conservative I’d be voting for them, but they haven’t been conservative since…well, really even Reagan wasn’t fiscally conservative. I wish they’d walk the damn walk.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They pay most of the taxes
…because they make so damn much money. They have more to lose if roads don’t get built, because their employees and goods can’t move around. If the country gets attacked and their mansions are occupied by enemy forces, they’ve “lost more” than the people whose 3/2 in the suburbs got garrisoned.
I won’t run away from “redistribution of wealth”. I think if you relieve the tax burden on the middle class, they have money to spend and EVERYBODY gets richer. Obviously you can’t go too damn far with a redistribution, but Obama’s tax plan is fair in my mind.
When you have a middle class who can’t afford the gas to get back and forth to work, educate their children, etc., the rich are going to have problems too because that’s their workforce. Plus, if they can’t afford that stuff they can’t buy other shit, either.
Most people don’t pay federal taxes, though? News to me. I don’t come anywhere close to that $250k mark and I pay lots of federal tax.
by Black Francis on Oct 17, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
as Warren Buffett has pointed out, the extremely wealthy often pay lower tax percentages than the folks that work for him.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 17, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
As ben has said, [insert standard Republican line + witty retort (e.g. “bully for you”)].
by brettgardner on Oct 17, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's horseshit.
Redistribution of wealth is the antithesis of everything I believe in.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 18, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then
I guess it’s horseshit for you, then.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly think
they need to stop jacking with rates, and eliminated deductions. Even the big ones like charitable contributions and interest payments, even mortgage interest payments. They could probably drop rates a few percent if they just eliminated the vast majority of deductions.
Those deductions allow folks like Warren Buffett to pay 17% taxes.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, but saying...
Warren Buffett pays 17% in taxes is probably aprochryphal.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 7:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
the number is 17.7% and the source is Warren Buffett.
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/taxes-warren-buffett-and-paying-my-fair-share/
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's not enough information
either in that link or the one it points to to sufficiently gauge what his actual tax situation is. All it says is that he claims he pays 17% on $46 million in income. But obviously he isn’t defining income the way the IRS does.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After thinking about it for a while...
it would appear to be that for his effective rate to be 17, over 90 of what he’s calling income would have had to come from capital gains. Frankly, if that’s the case, more power to him. I have no problem with low capital gains rates.
As for his secretary, for he or she to be paying 30% he or she would have to have a combined family income of over $200k if married and filing jointly. I wouldn’t exactly call that “middle class.” The rate on what I would call middle class (median income is 50k) is 15%, prior to deductions. So Warren Buffett, even being taxed almost entirely at capital gains rates, still gets taxed more than a household making the median income.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see a lot of value
at taxing capital gains at a separate rate from income, other than to create a lot of work for accountants to restructure income as capital gains.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I agree.
We should tax both capital gains and income at 15%.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i work for a bank...
…and i see more people placing money in trusts and partnerships than you’d believe…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 19, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work in the securities industry...
and I see people putting money in trusts and such, too. So what? That money has been taxed at some point. It’s not passing magically from some magical land of no taxes into a super-secret tax-free spiderhole.
Regardless, I think if you did the research you’d probably find the overall tax effect of sheltered trusts pretty low.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
What a condescending fuck. I guess the “securities industry” is completely different from the legal field, right? From what I understood from you, the legal profession doesn’t like arrogant douchebags, but I guess they fit right in within the “securities industry.”
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we can balance the books doing that
I’d be all for it. I think you’d need a rate in the low 20s to make it work though. I have no doubt though, the top marginal could come way down from the mid 30s if the deductions disappeared.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unintended consequences...
and all that. There’s a sizable industry that functions solely because the tax code is a monstrous pain in the ass. If the effects to the economy (in terms of unemployment, etc) were short term, it would be great.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While it probably would
bump unemployment, it would do wonders for real economic efficiency and productivity. We have a lot of very smart lawyers and accountants and other professional who could actually do something productive with their time.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and we have the real reason reform never happens
H&R Block would go out of business, so they probably pay millions of dollars to congressmen with the implicit agreement not to support a simplified tax code.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its silly...
…how if an article directly contradictes your thoughts than its not acceptable… just like if a report from any media source makes mccain/palin look bad its “liberal media bias”… buffett’s challenge is well documented… he pays more gross dollars than anyone, but percentage wise, the facts are clear… thats why the “the rich already pay their fair share” bit is argumentative and misleading… beause though they may pay more dollars, after they’ve used all the loopholes they can find, they aren’t exactly as bad off as you’d think…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 19, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See above.
He’s paying capital gains rates. I’d hardly call that a loophole. I’d also argue that raising capital gains rates in a recession would be, in a word, idiotic.
I’d also challenge you to point me to a post where I’ve used the terms “liberal media bias.”
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're deducing...
…that he is getting charged the capital gains rate with no actual fact… so don’t say its a fact… lets not run away from the facts stated with conclusions that might not be facts…
[objection: you’re honor his leading the witness]
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 19, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's sufficient information...
to conclude that the likely reason he’s paying approx. 17% is because he’s being taxed at capital gains rates.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm for some version of that
Anything that simplifies the tax code is good. Politicians use the tax code to legislate/encourage behavior instead of raising revenue. Income is income, tax it all above the poverty level at lower rates that are mildly progressive and get rid of most deductions.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 19, 2008 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define "MIldly" Progressive
Look, I’m not a socialist by any stretch of the imagination, although Ben probably thinks so. I think the the wealth has been so concentrated at the top that it’s ridiculous, so I favor progressive tax systems. I honestly don’t see what’s wrong with it. We’ve had it for a long time and we’ve done pretty damn well with it. Over three hundred million people and we just about lead the world in per capita income.
To me it’s just a practical matter. If you want the middle class to be able to educate themselves and keep healthy so we maintain a superior workforce in this country, you cannot raise their taxes. And if you want to get anywhere near a balanced budget ever again, you cannot cut everyone’s taxes.
If you want to stimulate growth, you cut taxes on the middle class, because they buy things like houses and cars and everything else under the sun en masse. When we buy stuff, it creates jobs. On the other hand, if the economy is doing poorly and you give the tax cut to the rich, they have no incentive to produce goods and services because people cannot buy them.
And sometimes you can use the tax code to encourage certain behaviors (renewable energy or whatever) over others while at the same time using it to raise revenue. It’s better than mandating behavior in my opinion.
The important thing is to implement a tax code that works. You obviously cannot over-tax the rich. I’d never advocate something like that. The goal here isn’t to make everyone equal. It’s to lift everybody up.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Come up with a system that you don’t start paying taxes until you reach $X income, and then beyond that it is taxed at Y%.
I think capital gains and dividends are fundamentally different types of income – but I’m willing to accept them being taxed equally if the rate isn’t something ridiculous (say 20-25% on all income > $50,000) would be a nice target.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OKAY
Now if we can all move beyond the religious stuff, I was wondering if anyone would like to talk about the horse race?
Is anyone ready to proclaim Obama the winnner? Or to rephrase, does McCain have any chance to not only change the momentum of the race but to catch up and beat Obama?
Do you believe the polls and sites like FiveThirtyEight?
I would like to do a new post just to have a EV prediction poll, but I don’t want to clutter up LSB with too much politics. I think my last prediction was for Obama to end up with around 320 EV’s, but I’m revising that to somewhere between 340-350, and I think I’m being conservative.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm buying into the hype
but I do worry a little about the Bradley Effect. I wish I had more faith in my fellow man, but sometimes I think I (like many others who post here) may be insulated from a lot of the racism that still exists today.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's
A self-fulfilling prophecy, and an untestable, untenable theory. It’s not given much credit beyond the talking heads of cable news.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Self-fulfilling prophecy/untenable theory
I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that the only way it can happen is if Obama supporters do it to themselves?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 16, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm?
No…
Self-fulfilling prophecy is perhaps an inartful term for it, though if the news of it plants a seed of doubt in someone’s mind, that does fit the formal requirements.
It’s an untenable theory because there is no way of proving causation, providing you discount the possibility that a person would admit to an exit-pollster that he wanted to vote for Obama but couldn’t because he was black.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, mostly
You never really know what’s in peoples’ heads, obviously. The theory may or may not have had some legs in the early eighties, but since then just about all of the races in which minorities were ahead in polls but lost elections, it was close and within the polls’ margins of error.
There may be some regional Bradley-like effect…you never really know. If there is I don’t think it will cost Obama much as there aren’t going to be that many close races (if the polls are accurate). Ohio might be an exception but Obama has momentum there.
by Black Francis on Oct 16, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley Effect vs Obama Effect
I don’t think racism has anything to do with it anymore (contrary to some people, I don’t believe we’re in as racially polarized time as in the past), but there may be an “Obama Effect.” Namely, Obama is the “cool guy” this cycle – and really probably the first truly “cool” guy to support for President in a long, long time. I know people who are hesitant to say they don’t support Obama – not because of a fear of being labeled racist, but because of a fear of being stigmatized as “anti-change” or “pro-Bush” or something like that. Obama is who all the cool people support – and no one wants to look uncool.
Whether this is something that would show up in the polls are not, I have no idea. Why someone would be afraid of hitting ‘2’ instead of ‘1’ on a Rasmussen computer, I don’t know. But I would argue that if we see any such effect, it is too simplistic to say it is race.
by JBImaknee on Oct 16, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I think people will answer the polls one way and perhaps do something different when they go into the voting booth.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 16, 2008 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: racism
i still think that in the end, as many people vote FOR obama because he is black as vote AGAINST obama because he is black
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the current Gallup poll is anything to go by...
the race isn’t over yet.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 16, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
National polls are so useless. You should know that.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think typically
the national polls are a few days ahead of polls in swing states. so if mccain has a couple gains in national polls again tomorrow, expect swing states to tighten up monday
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
What are “swing states” in this election? McCain is defending Virginia for God’s sake.
by brettgardner on Oct 16, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
neither candidate
should feel comfortable in a state where the lead is 6 pts or less.
i say six because polls in a state can go up or down 3 points any given day, and the margin of error is what? typically 3 points? add them up and that’s 6.
i know it’s arbitrary and i’m not a pollster or statistics/math guy but that’s my reasoning of using 6 points. and i think the definition of “swing state” is 5 points? i guess i’m conservative.
what states fall in the 6 point window as of recent polls?
FL – obama +4
GA – mccain +6
MO – mccain +1
MT – mccain +5
ME – obama +5
NC – obama +2
NC – obama +2
NV – obama +3
OH – obama +5
WV – mccain +2
that is GREAT news for obama, if the election were tomorrow. but with 19 days left other states could join the 6 point margins.
hell, in that time we could find out what obama did in college that he doesn’t want us to find out.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is too early
to proclaim a winner.
i know it’s a lot for mccain to overcome, but if anybody can do it, he can.
i don’t have the “luxary” of living in a swing state, i live in a state where obama will lose by over 20% so i don’t have my hands on the pulse of the nation. i don’t know any undecided voters, everybody i know is either fiercely for obama or fiercely for mccain.
i think the “bradley” effect will be offset by a guaranteed increase in minority voting, and trumped by a probable increase in youth vote. neither of which is reflected in polls.
i think it’s PROBABLE for obama to win, but not imminent.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probable Obama win...
Yeah, I’d agree with that. Calling the election at this time is definitely premature.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 16, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley Effect?
Obama outperformed the polls in the democratic primary.
"Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor"
by enut21 on Oct 17, 2008 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
the Bradley effect is gone, if it ever existed. Silver had a post on 538 recently that quoted Bradley as saying his campaign internals had the race much closer than others and he wasn’t that surprised.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 17, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Far from over - but Obama is way ahead now.
I think its obvious that Obama has a huge advantage. But the problem with 538 saying that Obama has a 95% chance of winning is that it assumes the race is in a vacuum.
With three weeks left, there is still time for a big shift in the electorate. While Obama’s lead is huge, it wasn’t for much of the race, suggesting that there are a large percentage of people who can be convinced to switch. Unlike conventional wisdom, I never thought McCain had a chance in any of those debates. His only shot has been, and will be, the news cycles. Ironically, Obama pulling away puts McCain in the “comeback” position he traditionally excels in.
Some points:
- The economy – It is unlikely that economic news can keep getting worse – people already presume that we’re in a recession and the market is likely near a bottom now as seen by the large volatility from day to day. Assuming that any bad economic news helps Obama and any good news helps McCain, you have to think the McCain has no more votes to lose here and can only gain if the market gets better.
- October surprise – I’m not fully convinced that a Bin Laden tape or a terrorism news cycle will help McCain (it may solidify that the Bush administration failed on these points), but that is the conventional wisdom. And while such a thing may reinvigorate Obama’s base, it may remind people why they supported Bush in 2004.
- Scandals (namely Acorn) – I know Obama isn’t personally involved in this, but it looks like ACORN could become a bigger story going forward. Obviously R’s and D’s differ over the voter disenfranchisement / voter fraud balance, but I think that D’s pressing this issue has the potential to alienate more people than they get out of it. Most likely, Obama can easily win this election without the help of people bribing the homeless to vote and trying to force states to register felons. But this issue certainly can’t help Obama in the socially conservative states he’s trying to win. Americans don’t like people who abuse the right to vote.
Bottom line – I think McCain is at the floor of his support right now – people who are never voting for a D or for Obama (McCain has done NOTHING to convince people to vote for him, so he can’t lose anyone). That implies Obama is near his peak. That’s where Obama wants to be, obviously, but it also means that we’ll likely see some movement back towards the middle. I doubt there will be enough to make it close though.
by JBImaknee on Oct 16, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Acorn "Scandal"
Why are people up in arms about this?
If anyone got defrauded, it was ACORN.
THEY had to pay those people who “signed up” fake names who WILL NOT VOTE.
Unless Tony Romo’s moving to Ohio, I don’t understand what all the hullaboo is about this “scandal.”
Someone, please enlighten me.
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a built in excuse
When McCain loses.
It gives the Rush/Fox News crowd a chance to say THE ELECTION WAS FIXED, even though it’s not what happened and they either have a shitty understanding of the situation or play ignorant to rile and lie to people.
by venturafearsnolan on Oct 17, 2008 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
it’s always nice when I can automatically discount anything a poster says because I already know it’s going to be worthless. Welcome to the memory hole, venturafearsnolan.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except... they're already saying it
“we can’t allow leftist groups like ACORN to steal this election”
- Sarah Palin
by venturafearsnolan on Oct 17, 2008 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya!
Damn republicans!
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you miss...
the conversations we had when Miles was talking about making messes at Wal Mart?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I vaguely recall them
I agree it’s more work for the states, but it’s nothing THAT IMPORTANT that it’s a SCANDAL.
So, please, Ben, enlighten me as to how this is a scandal.
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clogging up...
election workers’ time with fradulent registrations OVER and OVER again isn’t a scandal?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
Main Entry:
1scan·dal
1 a: discredit brought upon religion by unseemly conduct in a religious person
b: conduct that causes or encourages a lapse of faith or of religious obedience in another
2: loss of or damage to reputation caused by actual or apparent violation of morality or propriety : disgrace
3 a: a circumstance or action that offends propriety or established moral conceptions or disgraces those associated with it b: a person whose conduct offends propriety or morality
4: malicious or defamatory gossip
5: indignation, chagrin, or bewilderment brought about by a flagrant violation of morality, propriety, or religious opinion
This is obviously not 1, 3, 4 or 5. It’s not 2 because ACORN doesn’t really have any reputation outside of a small subset of Americans.
So, please, answer me this, Ben. How is this a scandal?
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
A scandal is a widely publicized incident that involves allegations of wrongdoing, disgrace, or moral outrage. A scandal may be based on reality, the product of false allegations, or a mixture of both.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandal
That seems to fit the bill.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
I was just going to respond to my own post to say that it’s pointless to rely on dictionary meanings anyways.
More importantly,
Why is Obama’s association (or lack thereof) important to American voters?
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak to other American voters...
but I find it obnoxious behavior with no economic benefit to the public that serves as a drain on public resources. It’s also behavior that Obama supports creating tax incentives to foster through his national service programs, “get out the vote” efforts have long been notoriously corrupt, and I am generally irritated by young people engaging in largely idle and moronic activity with no tangible benefits.
On top of that, could a massive influx of fraudulent voter registrations make it more easier to commit voter fraud in other ways? I certainly think it’s possible.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
this is more important than the economic plans the presidential candidates have? Or than their health care plans? Or foreign policy?
Or for that even Reverend Wright and the Alaskans for Independence?
Also, how many fraudulent voter registrations are “massive influx?”
And I love how you conveniently tie in voter registration fraud with actual voting fraud.
Tell me how many cases of voter fraud (not voter registration fraud) have there actually been prosecuted and proven? Or even just prosecuted?
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 2:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is this important...
I pointed out that this is behavior that Obama would actively incentivize with tax policy.
If you don’t see voter registration fraud as a problem, I guess that’s your prerogative. I find it troubling, but more importantly I find it irritating.
And do you honestly not see how voter registration fraud could lead to voter fraud? I mean, really ?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 3:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answer the questions, Ben
Stop trying to debate only the points you can “win.”
Start trying to talk person-to-person.
And stop trying to pick on straw men. Scarecrows don’t like it.
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 3:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see any strawmen here.
You seem to be dismissing voter registration fraud as a non-issue. I think it’s an issue for a number of reasons, and I’ve explained why. I mean, one of Obama’s seminal community organizing experiences involved a voter registration drive through Project Vote, which frequently organizes local registration drives with Acorn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Vote So doesn’t it make sense to question Acorn’s practices and policies, which, in even the most charitable view, seem to at least increase incidences of voter registration fraud?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 3:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still not answering questions
I see.
What are you afraid of?
I’m not going to answer any of your questions, unless you start answering some of mine.
There’s no point to try to have a discussion with someone who wants to keep to talking points.
That’s been the main problem with typical Republicans these past 8 years.
Typical Republicans never seem to really want to talk about issues, except the talking points that they want to keep hammering away at, no matter how unlikely, unrelated, and relatively unimportant the talking point is.
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 3:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to paint with a broad brush
to those Republicans who do engage in active discussion.
I just hate trying to have a discussion when the other party just wants to blabber about their “gotcha” points without discussing the broader context.
And I guess I’m really generalizing about the typical Republicans I see in the media. Not Republicans, in general. Unfortunately, Ben reminds me a lot of those Republicans I see in the media. Though, he hasn’t been quite as bad as some others I’ve seen post in these threads
Actually, it’s also gotten so that I’ve seen some Democrats do it, too. Maybe they think, whatever works?
Sigh, this is the crap about politics that I hate.
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 3:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
Now that I think about it, this is exactly the behavior which I hated about a wufdog on the ESPN boards.
He would always focus on any tiny argument or point that he could conceivably “win,” and completely ignore everything else we were discussing….
He would sometimes make very astute points about a subject, but any time he was “wrong,” he would completely ignore that part of the discussion unless he thought he could prove you wrong.
And he never seemed to acknowledge any valid points you DID make.
Ben=wufdog?
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 3:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
you identify the questions I’m not answering?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Questions Ben is not answering
this is more important than the economic plans the presidential candidates have? Or than their health care plans? Or foreign policy?
Or for that even Reverend Wright and the Alaskans for Independence?
Also, how many fraudulent voter registrations are "massive influx?"
….
Tell me how many cases of voter fraud (not voter registration fraud) have there actually been prosecuted and proven? Or even just prosecuted?
That enough for you, Ben?
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...
“More important than…?”
No, I would not necessarily say it’s “more important than.” I’d say, however, that it’s a substantive issue.
“Rev. Wright / Alaskans”
That’s also an issue.
“How many fraudulent voter registrations?”
I don’t know. I think that’s part of the problem.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok. Thank you.
For answering some of the questions.
So, how would you rate registration fraud with regard to the economic plans, foreign policy, and health care?
How would you rate it wrt even Rev. Wright/ Alaskans for Independence?
And the main question for you is how many fraudulent voter registrations constitutes a “massive influx?”
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the questions?
I answered all of them.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
These were still left virtually unanswered:
Also, how many fraudulent voter registrations are “massive influx?”
….
Tell me how many cases of voter fraud (not voter registration fraud) have there actually been prosecuted and proven? Or even just prosecuted?
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did answer that.
I said I don’t know. Isn’t that part of the problem? If someone successfully committed voter fraud, we wouldn’t know about it.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 2:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
The question is what do YOU consider a “massive influx” of registration fraud.
Plus, aren’t you concerned about potential voter suppression (which is even worse than registration fraud since legal voters ARE NOT GIVEN THE CHANCE TO VOTE) by Republicans?
IOW, if this is such a big issue for you, aren’t you even more concerned about vote suppression rather than registration fraud?
Or are you fine with it, because it’s the Republicans who are alleged?
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 3:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that
This abuse if proven would be vote suppression BY THE RULING PARTY which would be the direct antithesis of a democracy.
If you were truly wanted less government power, you should be worried about a potential abuse of power which might be occurring AT THIS MOMENT rather than a candidate’s hypothetical connections to a non-profit organization which has been a VICTIM of registration fraud.
But then, are you really concerned about less government power, or less government power for a specific party?
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What voter suppression?
The non-profit organization is not the VICTIM of registration fraud, it is COMMITTING it.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 4:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I just leave it at this… you seem to be indicating that I am only talking about the issue I can “win.” Since what I’m discussing is the problem of Acorn, fraudulent voter registrations, and Obama, I’m assuming that you are conceding that argument as the one I’ve won.
I frankly thank you for acknowledging it, despite the pissy way in which you’ve done so.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 4:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh
The Bloated Arrogant Expert has spoken.
by brettgardner on Oct 17, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
his retort harkens back to the great logical referendum “i know you are but what am i”….
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 17, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly..
these threads are such echo chambers, it’s astonishing. We’ve got a bunch of people I can barely understand because they’ve got Obama’s balls in their mouths, and 4Him up there peeing all over Barry Goldwater’s grave.
Sweet merciful crap.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
Would that affect their typing?
Oh ben!
by brettgardner on Oct 17, 2008 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lolol
Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)
by Chase Irwin on Oct 21, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're discussing
only whether we should be “for” or “against” registration fraud.
Of course, I’m going to say against.
That’s beside the point, though.
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These aren't "gotcha points."
They’re legitimate points.
You asked why I find them concerning. I told you because of Obama’s stated plans about national service.
You’re “substantive” defense of Acorn or Obama in this instance seems to amount to “voter registration fraud isn’t a big deal.” Well, bully for you.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 17, 2008 3:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Legitimate points?
You “substantive” attack on Obama is that
a) he might have been related to Acorn at some time a while back,
|
\/
b) they had voter registration fraud PERPETRATED ON THEM,
|
\/
c) which might lead to them perpetrating voting fraud,
|
\/
d) which is a BIG deal potentially more important than the economy or health care or foreign policy!
Well, bully for you!
Of course, the problem is that if ANY ONE of that chains is shown to be inadequate, you’re argument goes up in smoke.
And I was trying to point out that ALL those points have issues.
You, however, wanted me to say that voter registration fraud is a problem which, of course, it is.
But you have to prioritize which ones are the big issues you need to go after and which ones are the smaller issues which don’t make much of an impact.
And voter registration fraud is WAY, WAY down the totem pole of important issues.
Care to address the issue instead of trying to prove that we should not like voter registration fraud?
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"And voter registration fraud is WAY, WAY down the totem pole of important issues."
I’m not inclined to agree, necessarily.
What a presidential candidate says he’s going to do is largely irrelevant. The most important things they do have to do with responding to immediate issues with sound judgement. And if tacitly supporting voter registration fraud constitutes an error in judgement, it’s certainly relevant.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care all that much about it.
To clarify, I personally am not up in arms about it. I’m just laying it out there as something that could grow to hurt Obama. Fair or not.
My point really was that the voter fraud / voter disenfranchisement battle is not one that the Dems hold the popular ground. Case in point, the Florida 2000 debacle. D’s tried to work up sympathy for Gore because the voters didn’t know who they were voting for. I think big picture this hurt their cause more than it helped. And it doesn’t help that the far left cried wolf about a 100000+ deficit in Ohio in 2004. So the more this stuff is in the news, the more it has the potential to hurt Obama.
by JBImaknee on Oct 17, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except the issue is
that voter registration fraud is NOT ANYWHERE NEAR voter fraud / voter disenfranchisement.
At least the voter registration fraud we are talking about.
And it’s being perpetrated ON ACORN. It’s not like there was a concerted effort BY ACORN to create registration fraud. (Though they are liable for not cracking down harder on it and for it continuing.)
I do agree that for the voter who really isn’t paying attention, it MIGHT convince them that they don’t want to vote for Obama because of it.
And thank you for the clarification. I thought you thought it was an important issue a la Ben, which is why I was confused as to why it was since if you look into it, it’s relatively low on the totem pole wrt priorities.
Now to try to understand why Ben seems to think it’s this huge deal.
R
by Requiem on Oct 18, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can register...
mickey mouse all you want… unless someone shows up with a state ID and voter card the big rat can’t vote… i don’t see how this is as big a problem as some want it to be… this is something done by young people to ACORN to make a buck… the only people who do this kinda thing to win a presidency are already in office… for a while during the 2000 recount in FL one of the counties showed a negative number for Gore… i think its amazing the Reps are ballsy enough to complain about voter fraud…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 18, 2008 7:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's my understanding...
that Dems say that requiring an ID at polling places is a Republican attempt at voter suppression.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you disagree with my point?
our are you just trying to misdirect? i’d prefer to stay on topic.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 18, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how it's a misdirection.
The position of the DNC is that requiring ID at polling places is voter suppression. They are also rather intimately involved with an outfit that participates in voter registration fraud. That seems to be a problem.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 18, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Supreme Court
Held that state laws requiring photo ID are constitutional.
But I’m sure you already knew that, what with your gigantic wealth of legal knowledge.
by brettgardner on Oct 18, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
joe the plumber = hollywood movie
didn’t see the movie, but does joe the plumber sound like http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1027862/ ??
costner in swing vote?
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Oct 16, 2008 5:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Backfire Effect - Why there's so much Misinformation in Politics
Saw this on a youtube video.
It’s an interesting study.
The Backfire Effect is:
But a series of new experiments show that misinformation can exercise a ghostly influence on people’s minds after it has been debunked — even among people who recognize it as misinformation. In some cases, correcting misinformation serves to increase the power of bad information.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/14/AR2008091402375.html
Not sure if the hypothesis is a good one, but it’s a very weird phenomenon….
R
by Requiem on Oct 17, 2008 12:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting letter...
from McCain lawyers at Akin Gump…
Kind of an interesting juxtoposition between what we know about Sarah Palin or Joe the Plumber as a result of investigative reporting, and if that same standard is applied to Obama.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 12:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Obama
Hasn’t skipped out on his taxes, unethically ordered the firing of a state employee, or shown his contempt for cuddly polar bears.
I swear you look so pathetic.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
Obama admitted to drug use already, what’s to investigate? I don’t buy all this liberal media bullshit. Any reporter that found dirt on Obama or Biden would immediately report it. They care about the scoop and a hot news story, they don’t care which party it comes from. Jeremiah Wright was talked about endlessly earlier this year while the press never mentions something like McCain’s infidelity and divorce, or his assocations with ministers of questionable statements and opinions.
Your comments about posters here with “Obama’s balls in their mouths” are laughable. You often make very strong points on details of policy and politics, but it’s hilarious when you try to pretend you’re not just as biased as the rest of us.
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by t ball on Oct 19, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cindy McCain has admitted to drug use already.
What’s the difference?
Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that there hasn’t been some major differences in how the campaigns are reported?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I can
overall. There is a Rush Limbaugh for every Keith Olbermann out there. A Matt Drudge for every Arianna Huffington. The GOP is just whining. Don’t like the message? Slander the messenger.
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by t ball on Oct 19, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not talking about Limbaugh or Olbermann.
I’m talking about “straight” news coverage. Can you name any investigative reports about Obama or the Obama campaign, comparable to what’s going on with Palin, Cindy McCain, or Joe the Plumber?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 19, 2008 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, come on.
If Obama had named an unknown for VP a few weeks ago the media would be trying like hell to figure that person out, too. And do you really expect that Joe the Plumber would remain anonymous after McCain mentioned approximately 42000 times in the debate? I have not seen many news stories about Cindy McCain, but I have seen some mud thrown out there about Michelle Obama.
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by t ball on Oct 19, 2008 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't understand.
The only way a partisan hack like ben can figure out why people don’t agree with him is that the nasty liberal media elite have taken it upon themselves to decide this election.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's delusional.
It’s also selective memory. Frankly, we know more about Sarah Palin, a relative unknown on the bottom of her ticket, than about Obama, a relative unknown at the top of his ticket.
I’m not going to convince you, I know, but for you to say that there’s been “mud thrown” at Michelle Obama is ridiculous.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 20, 2008 2:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michelle vs. Cindy
I don’t see a difference in the coverage here, unless you’re talking about the Daily Show. And to say we know more about Palin than Obama is unbelievable. Obama has been a national figure for 4 years, has written a couple of books, given many, many press interviews, speeches, and participated in dozens of debates, all covered by the media. How do we not know enough about Obama? You’re just repeating a stock GOP line that attempts to cause unease in voters about him.
The perception that the media has “picked on” Palin is just the most ludicrous whining. It’s fine to criticize Obama’s lack of experience, a valid point and one reservation I have about him. But to say we don’t know anything about him, or that we know more about Palin is patently ridiculous. How can we know enough about someone if they won’t answer questions? Don’t you think the media’s hunger for info on her has something to do with, A) she was virtually unknown until a few weeks ago, and, B) she won’t answer questions, so their only option is to go ask other people.
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by t ball on Oct 20, 2008 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
It’s also selective memory. Frankly, we know more about Sarah Palin, a relative unknown on the bottom of her ticket, than about Obama, a relative unknown at the top of his ticket.
remember the outcry regarding bush and drugs…or al gore and “not inhaleing” yet we have a guy with as much or more of a history of drug usage than bush and its no big deal…hmmm
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No big deal
That’s right. Lots of people try drugs, amongst other stupid things, in college. I don’t believe he’s on them now so I’m perfectly okay with it.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 20, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think that he is either. and yes ppl try them
but you know more of a deal was made of bush, gore, hell even cindy mccain’s use of drugs than obamas…which is redic to me
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cindy McCain
Was using a charitable organization. You think that’s the same thing as some frathouse drug use?
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cindy McCain
isn’t running for president. So it is more irrelevant than Obama’s frathouse drug use (though both are pretty irrelevant to me).
Michelle and her mystery thesis and Cindy and her addiction history should be off-limits.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off-Limits?
Don’t know about that, but it shouldn’t matter much. Personally, I don’t give a shit about Cindy McCain, I was just responding to the assertion that it was the same thing as young rebelliousness.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah... offlimits was the wrong word
I regretted it as soon as I hit enter.
Really, I meant that it shouldn’t be worried about by anyone. Obviously if they did somethign really bad, then it should be publicized. But digging for skeletons of potential first ladies is trashy journalism
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We agree there.
For the most part, anyway. I can envision some scenarios where a potential first lady’s skeletons could substantively affect my judgment, but typically only if they also involve the potential President. See, for example, Ted Stevens.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
there are already enough reasons to make anyone who is half-way sane want to avoid running for president. We don’t want to scare off all the other qualified people by saying we’re going to dig into their wives / husbands’ backgrounds.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
I don’t remember a huge deal being made about Bush snorting coke.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
wow.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely no more
than is made about Obamas drug use.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
now how i remembered it
but i may be wrong
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was the last second
Bush got a DUI charge in Maine back in the ’70s announcement aboutu 2 days before the 2000 election. It got big press, but I think was recognized as a last minute desperation attack.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drugs
There weren’t many legs on the Gore drugs thing. And for the extent of Bush’s drug use and the age he was when he was using, there certainly weren’t very many legs there either. Obama’s drug use isn’t as extensive as Bush’s was.
People are just tired of this issue.
by Black Francis on Oct 20, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was my point
that there werent legs
but i think its redic that they bring up cindy mccains in the first place
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama a relative unknown?
You’ve got to be kidding me, Ben.
by Black Francis on Oct 20, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
from a third of the way up this page...
I’d also challenge you to point me to a post where I’ve used the terms "liberal media bias."
~ben
you might not say there is a “liberal media bias” but you sure are touting the existence of it… wanna pick a story and stick to it?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 20, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't use the terms "liberal media bias."
I do, however, take note of the differing ways that the campaign are treated by the “straight” news media.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 20, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Why don’t we hear more about McCain, then?
The answer to that question is the answer to your overall question.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain
You know, I was just thinking about something. McCain is a guy who almost definitely cheated on his first wife – marrying Cindy McCain 2-3 months after his wife agreed to a divorce. Pre-Bill Clinton, this would have instantly disqualified him from being President – who cares if it was 30 years ago. Now it is hardly ever mentioned or thought about. The media is doing an okay job of staying away from McCain’s dirt just like they are Obama’s dirt.
I don’t think there is any question that the NY Times has a left-ward tilt (which is why I am amused whenever anyone complains that they run anti-conservative news exposes). Maybe there is an argument to be made that they shouldn’t be considered a top main-stream journalistic source anymore, but I think that most people now consider the messenger and weight NY Times pieces accordingly.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad the Republicans
aren’t trumpeting Family Values. The comedians could have a field day with McCain’s and Palin’s family situations.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its ironic too
they select two people that make them want to minimize those issues given that “family values” probably won them the last two elections.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of doubt
any candidate who appealed to the “family value” base would have done much better. The guy who won the last 2 elections is a heavy weight to carry.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i feel like...
…i’m talking to a wall(maybe one named 4Him)… just because you don’t use the term “liberal media bias” and look down at those who do, doesn’t mean you can then rail against the media for giving what you believe to be a one sided view… you obviously believe the media is biased… in fact i’d challenge you to name a story you thought portrayed obama in a negative light and was a story that had an obvious bias…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 20, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Bias is a lot harder to pick up than you think in the media. Sure, if you’re a talking head like Olberman or O’Reilly its easy, but try to take an article from CNN or Yahoo and get back to me.
And now, an excuse to post this picture, permanently killing this thread.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Oct 20, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude killing this thread?
that is pure awesomeness!
green man is the shit!
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your challenge...
doesn’t make sense. If I think that the media is “in the tank” for Obama, i.e., they are less likely to report negative things about Obama, I’d of course have a hard time coming up with negative reporting about Obama. That would, in fact, prove my point.
I’d challenge you, actually, to find me articles from mainstream news sources critical of Obama or his campaign.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Oct 21, 2008 6:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colin Powell
endorsed Barack Obama for President
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think all this does
is take Joe the Plumber out of the news cycles – which is a good thing for Obama, but also shows that Obama’s camp was a little worried to play what everyone kind of knew was their biggest remaining hand.
I doubt Powell moves that many people into the Obama camp
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked that he said
that the choice of Sarah Palin reflected on McCain’s judgement.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worried?
There are only a couple of days left.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moving to a new camp
I doubt at this point that anything short of miracle or catastrophe moves many people to either camp.
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by t ball on Oct 19, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the express here in DC had this line
“powells endorsement has been much anticipated because he is a republican with impressive foreign policy credentials, a subject on which obama, a first-term senator, is weak”
umm so because powell has FP experience it somehow translates over to obama?
by that level of reasoning obama and palin should have experience because their…vice presidents/presidents have FP experience?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Powell's endorsement means
that someone with vast foreign policy and military experience believes that Obama is the better candidate even though McCain has more experience.
I watched the Cuban Missile Crisis and JFK specials last week on PBS. At one point they talked about how the military advisors all counciled an invasion of Cuba but JFK waited and kept looking for other solutions until they settled on the blockade and backdoor negotiating strategy. I was thinking I wonder what McCain or Obama would do in that situation. No one can say, of course, but my impression of their temperaments makes me think that McCain might have followed the invasion plan while Obama might have been more likely to have taken the “talk to foreign dictators without pre-conditions” route that saved us from WWIII. I may be wrong, but that’s my impression and that feeling is one reason I’m voting for Obama, and I think, one reason Powell endorsed him.
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by t ball on Oct 20, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"talk to foreign dictators without pre-conditions" route
does not equal backdoor negotiating though
in the past there have been rumors of israel and syria “backdoor negotiating” regarding the syrian golan, water, etc but neither country was meeting “without pre-conditions”.
also cuban missle crisis was a situation where (from my understanding, relize this is waaaay before my time and therefore i get the advantage of looking back with 20/20 hindsignt) we were dealing with a) USSR b) WMDs literally in our back yard and c) another communist world power.
now if the situation came up tomorrow (ie, putin puts WMDs in cuba, or even one of the leftist leaning latin american countries) would mccain consider invading? i would hope not considering that putin is crazy like a fox (means he MIGHT shoot the missles off), the leaders of the leftist latin american countries (castro, chavez, etc) are just plain crazy (not like a fox). but the point is when its in your back yard its one thing. when its halfway across the world its another (say iran vs cuba)
and hey, if someone advocates a less intrusive foreign policy then i would like to think its pretty clear who your candidate is (this guy …just kidding haha)
but its the same as if your a true blue democrat or a long time republican…you know who your voting for and your probably not gonna change your mind.
i personally am quite conservative, and disagree with obama on almost every single policy position he has. therefore the list of candidates i would support does not include obama. do i think he is a radical muslim? no. do i think there are questions that have not been asked of him that should be? yes. but does it make a difference to how i would vote? no.
i think its a huge step that powell did endorse him (but its something everyone has known was coming for how long? lol)
…but then again i think that either of the two if elected i think they are both one term presidents…so who knows.
my problem is that i am quite conservative. and therefore in the primaries no one really matched up well with my positions, huckabee was closest but i wasnt sold on him. i actually (policy-wise) identify with palin the most of the “major candidates” for the republican ticket (romney, mccain, lieberman, pawlenty, etc) so i was happy with the pick of her from a policy standpoint…
anyway this long post is basically to say that i think this is a race that is divided pretty clearly along multiple lines (moreso than in 2000 or 2004 from what i remember) to the point that you KNOW who your voting for (most people i talk to do at least) and nothing is gonna change your mind short of a miracle one way or another
finally, even if mccain loses i think it should be intersting to see if the “youth vote” shows up this year, and to see how many people vote. one way or another this will be quite a year for both election turnout (which is great. more ppl voting = less chance of my guy winning but thats that) because people (my generation especially) need to exercise that ability to vote. or they need to excerise the ability to NOT vote. but at least they are doing something vs not careing at all…
that is all lol and i have a question tball (since the cuban missle crisis was before my time) but what was the perception of the american people/what did the people want to do at that time (invade vs take another strategy vs somethign else)?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perception at the time
Well, that’s before my time also, but from reading/watching, I don’t think the American people knew of the invasion plan or most of the details at the time. Personally, I myself might have favored invading Cuba under those circumstances, but Kennedy really played that well, and maybe even got a little lucky, too. Scary stuff to contemplate to be sure.
I think way too much has been made of this “pre-conditions” thing. McCain and Obama both would probably exhaust many diplomatic avenues before considering force, to not do so would be utterly irresponsible. Both of them have more sense than Bush, in my opinion.
A year ago I was rooting for McCain to win the nomination, and I remember thinking that an Obama-McCain fight would be the best choice. I’m very disappointed, though, in how both have pandered to their parties in the last few months. People have an image of who they want Obama to be, and I think most are voting that image instead of deeply considering his policies. On the other side, I think a lot of Republicans are voting against an image they have of Obama, rather than for McCain or his policies. Though I think many have great respect for McCain’s service, most do not agree with many of his views.
It’s sad that because of politics and having more congressional elections on the way in 2 years that neither party will genuinely try 100% to do what’s best for the country if the idea comes from the other side of the aisle. At times I think McCain and Obama have tried to make their positions more different than they really are, and in reality, either would have their hands tied to a large degree when they get in office. Their proposals will gather dust as they attempt to put out fires and deal with the short and long term economic issues. Obama will win, but he will be an incrementalist, not a radical. But in 2 years the GOP will stridently paint him as one anyway, and the Dems will say the GOP are heartless bastards who only care about the rich, blah blah blah, world without end, Amen.
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by t ball on Oct 20, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People have an image of who they want Obama to be, and I think most are voting that image instead of deeply considering his policies. On the other side, I think a lot of Republicans are voting against an image they have of Obama, rather than for McCain or his policies.
great line.
btw it really doesnt matter what either of them say…its not like they are going to change policy overnight (nor would they even if they could)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh...
Seeing Powell on with Brokaw this morning really reinforced my belief that he is the best person for the job of President. Sadly, he is smart enough not to want it.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by DaheelzCM on Oct 19, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Powell
He was part of the Lie Machine that got us into Iraq. I’ll never forgive him or consider him fit for any kind of public office after what he did at the UN.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still not sure
the State Dept wasn’t lied to by the defense and intelligence folks.
You get the feeling that Powell isn’t real happy with the Bush Admin. My guess is he doesn’t say anything if he doesn’t feel he was set up for that UN speech. He still seems a little embarrassed by it.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, DJ
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"Football is like having a fling once a week. Baseball is a relationship." - oc
by baseballismyboyfriend on Oct 19, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
From today’s interview with Brokaw:
Without the weapons of mass destruction present, as conveyed to us by the intelligence community in the most powerful way, I don’t think there would have been a war. It was the reason we took it to the public, it was the reason we took it to the American people to the Congress, who supported it on that basis, and it’s the presentation I made to the United Nations. Without those weapons of mass destruction then Iraq did not present to the world the kind of threat that it did if it had weapons of mass destruction.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by DaheelzCM on Oct 19, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't believe him
The guy was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I’m sure he’s looked at a few satellite images in his day and knew the ones he showed to the UN weren’t nearly enough to support the argument he was making.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my view
If you think Iraq was a debacle, then Powell deserves a lot of the blame. He may not have been pushing it on the inside, but he allowed his credibility to go on the line to support it. Powell could have stopped it but didn’t. Suggestions that he didn’t feel the same way as the rest of the admin doesn’t help. He should have stood up to them if that was the case. He didn’t. That isn’t leadership that you want in a president.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused.
How exactly could he have stopped it? You think if the Secretary of State openly disobeys an order from the President that the President’s going to just shrug his shoulders? Powell would have been fired and it wouldn’t have missed a beat.
And you really have no clue what he did behind closed doors. I don’t either, but I don’t make assumptions one way or the other.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How could he have stopped it?
He could have resigned – that’s how. Seems to me that if you think that the country is about to go to war illegitimately, then leadership is saying “I’m not going to be part of this”, not holding your nose and going in front of the UN.
Look, I’m not one of those gung-ho anti-Iraq War people. I think it was obviously mishandled, and in hindsight the decision to go in was too hasty. But I don’t believe that intelligence was manipulated or that people were lying to get us into war.
Obviously I don’t know what happened, but Powell appears to have either 1> gone along with it against his principals to save his job, 2> was in full agreement with the war, or 3> was deceived/confused by the intelligence at the time to make the wrong decision. I’d say that covers 95% of the possible explanations. To me, #1 is disqualifying, and to much of the nation, #2 and #3 are disqualifying for a President. That is what I’m saying.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and a Powell resignation
would have been a HUGE impediment to the Iraq War. Would it have stopped it completely? I don’t know. But I strongly doubt it would have had even half the tacit support it got from Congress and the UN at the time.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See Cahill's
Response below. I think that accurately sums up the situation. Resignation isn’t always the best protest, especially when you’re not sure that you’re correct, or sure that somebody else isn’t.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think that’s silly.
Everybody in the White House cannot be a President unto himself. There’s a distinct chain of command, and, at times, orders must be followed on faith.
To suggest that doing his job disqualifies him necessarily for another one is fuzzy logic.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he could have done something
He was Secretary of State, not White House Press Secretary. Yeah, Bush was his boss, but he wasn’t a "yes man" by any stretch of the imagination. SofS is traditionally one of the most powerful offices in the Executive Branch and often one of the most independent from the conventional Executive hierarchy.
I don’t think his Iraq speech disqualifies him. per se. But I can’t see how someone (not necessarily you) who thinks Iraq disqualifies many others from important offices (including Hillary Clinton) could possibly let Powell off the hook. He either believed in the war (poor judgment, according to those people), or didn’t do anything to stop it (poor leadership). Personally, I don’t buy the “nothing he could have done” argument
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fundamental
Disagreement, then.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he assumed
the the NSA, CIA, Defense were legitimitely trying to do what was in the best interests. I doubt he knew how blatantly they were spinning the intelligence.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 19, 2008 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
That seems to be the consensus from all the stuff I’ve read (and I’ve read most of the major run-up to Iraq books).
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 19, 2008 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read
The Woodward volumes? What a portrait they paint.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why can't that argument work for Bush then?
I know Bush screwed up lots of other stuff too, but to say he’s to blame for the war, while Powell was simply misled, doesn’t seem fair.
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't
See a gigantic difference in their responsibilities?
Bush is responsible, in the strictest sense of the word, for jack shit. Other, smarter, people around him got us into this. But he is the President, and responsibility lies at his doorstep.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush isn't that stupid
He’s a fuck up, but he’s not stupid. He knew what was going on the whole time.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if you believe
Almost every report you read about the matter. He knew what was going on in the vaguest sense, and unquestionably made judgments and decisions, but nobody has ever accused him of being a policy wonk.
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with that
I meant that he knew what was going on with the intel. No, I don’t think he was the mastermind behind it.
by Black Francis on Oct 20, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it was Bush's decision to go to war
Not Powell’s.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 19, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that
but Powell isn’t 100% not responsible. He was Secretary of State.
I know the buck stopped with Bush. Obviously he made the decisions. But f you are going to say that the fast one pulled by Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al., was so good that it fooled Powell, then I think it is hard to put blame on anyone else either, including Bush. What is Bush supposed to do if even Powell is fooled?
by JBImaknee on Oct 19, 2008 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so its ok to forgive powell
but not busH?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The same reason I'd blame the GM for bad pitching
and not the Hitting coach, even though the pitching coach might be the problem.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 6:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the comparison though is going to be
gm: bush
coaches: sec state/etc
if teh iraq war is a problem with the pitching its not like powell is the third base coach or the strength coach. hes the damned minor league pitching coordinator or the major league bullpen coach or the major league pitching coach
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Secretary of State
isn’t directly in the info gathering loop, last I checked. He gets the filtered output.
You obviously don’t understand the position of State versus the DOD or the NSA. If they classified intel, he wouldn’t necessarily see it. I think they assured him he was telling the truth, and thats why he has broken ranks with the Republicans. He is pissed off because they lied right to his face. That’s pretty tough for a former General to take from the SecDef.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Oct 20, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so lets get this straight
they only told him “we have intelligence that says iraq has WMDs, go talk to the UN” and powell said “ok, sign me up”
i HIGHLY doubt thats how it worked.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Security Clearance
I doubt they’ve taken away Powell’s security clearance to this day. My uncle is a retired AF Colonel and still retains much of his, which is part of the reason he got his job at Lockheed five years later. Obviously he didn’t have the same kind of access to facilities and databases, but he could talk to people about certain things without breaking the law.
by Black Francis on Oct 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 on the clearence helping to get a job
know a couple of ppl who will have their clearence re-upped right before they get out of the military (well within like 6-8 months of getting out) and according ot them its gonna be a HUGE HUGE HUGE help getting a job in defense contracting
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a top secret security clearance
Had one for about 10 years now.
I can assure you that the concept of NEED TO KNOW is foremost in any security matters above the secret level.
Can I find out about about TS matters in my field? Mostly.
Can I find out about about TS matters outside my field? Hell no.
It helps you to get a job alot, but that’s b/c a TS clearance costs about 10-15K to complete the investigation.
Dan is right. The idea that Powell is still privvy to even 10% of the intel he had access to when he was at State seems highly improbable to me. And the notion that the State Dept., or the Congress, even the pertinent committee members, has access to the same level of classified docs and information as the Executive branch is simply ridiculous (this is addressed to everyone).
From the books I have read, Powell, Armitage, and Rice, among others, were subject to an alternating combination of misinformation and strong-arming, spearheaded by Cheney’s office, with Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz’s cooperation, and red-carpeted by a pussified media too afraid to be seen as unpatriotic in the immediate post 911 atmosphere.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 21, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it helps you to get a job alot, but that’s b/c a TS clearance costs about 10-15K to complete the investigation.
IIRC its a pretty fair amount (5k+?) to get your clearence “re-upped” (or do you have to start from scratch if your outside the gov’t?)
my friend was not based in the intelligence community fwiw (works on “things with sensative insides”) so take what i said with a grain of salt for there
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 22, 2008 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Even Secret clearances, which are the level of classification most people need, are pretty expensive.
And they recently changed the amount of time each level is good for, as well.
I recently sat next to an AirTran ticket agent on a flight, and she said the FAA requires theirs to be redone every 2 years. Regular TS is 5.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 22, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn every TWO years
thats a killer
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 22, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that's not a fair analogy
It would be if Powell was just there and didn’t do anything, then i’d agree he shouldn’t be blamed at all. He wasn’t Defense Sec – I guess the pitching coach in your analogy – and he certainly wasn’t Bush.
But Powell did do something. He put his credibility on the line to support the War. He didn’t go up there as Bush’s ambassador to the UN. He went up there as “Colin Powell: internationally respected non-partisan military expert” He swayed people who wouldn’t have been swayed otherwise. Now, arguments can be made all day long whether the War was wrong or whether Powell was fooled. But to say “he wasn’t responsible” wreaks of putting your hands over your ears and yelling “I don’t want to hear that my guy could have been wrong”. And that is the same thing that Bush supporters have done for 7 years.
I’m not saying Powell is as much to blame for the War as Bush and Rummy are. After all, the war itself wasn’t the real debacle, it was its implementation and follow up. But part of that legacy belongs to Powell.
He’s just not the dream leader we all wanted him to be – the truly bipartisan, patriotic, powerful, willing to stand up against power structures in both parties leader that we all yearn for. He’s certainly some of those things, but not all. Maybe such a man (or woman) exists. But it isn’t Colin Powell.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
Strongly disagree with you that the war itself wasn’t the real debacle.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
like I said, people can argue about that. And if that is the case, it only hurts Powell’s case more
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 mm
both have got to be painted with the same brush here
both supported it
both went on the record supporting it
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Powell
Wasn’t he a 4-Star General? These people have a pretty good idea about how intelligence works, and even at the time this was going on there were NATO countries saying “what the hell?” about our intel. There were journalists who covered CIA and Pentagon who were skeptical. I find it hard to believe that Powell didn’t have at least some doubt, and if he would’ve acted on that doubt then he is the kind of guy with connections. There were doubters within our own intelligence community and certainly he could have talked to them and learned how solid that intel he took to the UN was.
I think he chose to be a good soldier instead.
Powell has and always has had a lot of peoples’ respect. Not just the people’s, but in Congress and even around the world. If he would have resigned in protest it would have caused a big, big problem for the propaganda machine. It would’ve made headlines worldwide. I don’t know if it would’ve prevented the war as the Administration seemed to be hellbent on the invasion, but you never know.
by Black Francis on Oct 19, 2008 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's just me
But showing up the President when you’re not 100% sure you’re right and he’s wrong is not what great leaders are made of. In fact, that seems quite the opposite to me.
I know everybody loves the martyr, but I think at some point “falling on your sword” becomes “hoisting yourself by your own petard.”
by brettgardner on Oct 19, 2008 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
….I would not have considered Powell a martyr.
I think he knew it was bullshit, and I think he had ways of investigating it. Whether he did or not I don’t know. But as someone who had probably seen thousands of satellite images prior to those that he showed at the UN, he should’ve known something was fishy at the very least. They were not conclusive, yet he had these diagrams and told be what they WERE. Not what they could have been. What they WERE. Now other countries didn’t buy it. If there were good intelligence then we would have been able to build a much broader coalition. But there wasn’t. Everybody knew it was crap, and I have a hard time believing Powell didn’t.
I’m not blaming the whole thing on him, obviously. But he was a part of it.
by Black Francis on Oct 20, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
powell was the “public face” that kind of sold it all
its hard to “hate the bushes” for iraq yet love powell for being himself when he was a pretty integral part of the invasion in the FIRST place
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love
Watching political cannibalism.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well people on here seem to want to forgive powell but keep bashing GW Bush…look at my response to cahills talk about GM, etc
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Powell and the Iraq war
I haven’t read all the comments, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but he wasn’t in favor of the war. He was always against it but knew it would happen regardless. He felt that the only way it would succeed was if there was multi nation cooperation so he presented the “evidence” against Saddam to the UN.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Oct 20, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
and he finally caused me to have a sig.
"Obama is a Christian - He's always been a Christian...But.........what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that's not America." Colin Powell on Obama/Muslim assertions.
by AirJordan on Oct 20, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait shouldnt that say what if he isnt?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
The question was about being a Muslim. Without more context, though, the quote doesn’t make much sense.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The quote is right.
BG is probably right though, it probably needed to have more context. Here is the full quote-
“I’m also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say, and it is permitted to be said. Such things as ‘Well you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.’ Well the correct answer is ‘He is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian, he’s always been a Christian.’ But the really right answer is ‘What if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?’ The answer is ‘No. That’s not America.’ Is there something wrong with some 7-year old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she can be president? Yet I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion he’s a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists. This is not the way we should be doing it in America.
"I feel strongly about this particular point because of a picture I saw in a magazine. It was a photo-essay about troops who were serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And one picture at the tail end of this photo essay was of a mother in Arlington Cemetery and she had her head on the headstone of her son’s grave. And as the picture focused in you can see the writing on the headstone. And it gave his awards, Purple Heart, Bronze Star, showed that he died in Iraq, gave his date of birth, date of death. He was 20 years old. And then at the very top of the headstone, it didn’t have a Christian cross, it didn’t have a Star of David. It had a crescent and a star of the Islamic faith. And his name was Karim Rashad Sultan Khan. And he was an American, he was born in New Jersey, he was 14 at the time of 9/11 and he waited until he can go serve his counrty and he gave his life.”
"Obama is a Christian - He's always been a Christian...But.........what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that's not America." Colin Powell on Obama/Muslim assertions.
by AirJordan on Oct 20, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He blames the Republicans there
but those seeds were planted by Hillary’s people in the primaries.
I agree that it’s a great quote overall, and that is – more than race – one of the most depressing aspects of this campaign season.
by JBImaknee on Oct 20, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My suggestion:
Make it say, "But…what if he is [a Muslim]. That’ll clear it up.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 on that
good quote
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Changed it.
It was real refreshing to see a person of Powell’s stature speak up on this subject. Somehow being a Muslim is starting to become a racial slur and have derogatory connotations. That’s sad.
"Obama is a Christian - He's always been a Christian...But.........what if he is[a Muslim]? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that's not America." Colin Powell on Obama/Muslim assertions.
by AirJordan on Oct 20, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is very sad
the worst part is that idiots begin to think everyone is muslim (say someone who is indian and who might look muslim) or that everyone who is muslim is radical or that even people who MIGHT be muslim are radical or they take one look at a persons name and presume they are muslim when in reality they are christian (happened a lot at my school) or they see the headdress and flip shit (also happened at my school)
being in egypt really gave me a different view of islamic life, but im sure thats what happens when your immersed in muslim culture the way we were…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
That’s happened to my girlfriend. You know her, right?
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
whats happened to your gf?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indian
Christian automatically assumed to be Muslim.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
woaaaaaaaaaaaah
your THAT dude…never even put two and two together lol
yea i know her – used to hang out w/ that group lol
small world haha
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think that an Indian, if anything, would be automatically assumed to be of the Hindu faith
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 21, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
You assume that most people can tell an Indian from a Pakistani. A bad assumption in my experience.
by brettgardner on Oct 21, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
strangely a bad assumption at a school with a large indian population…
but generally, a lot of people just see brown skin and think pakistani/muslim…
heh a couple of years back the presiden of the INDIAN Cultural Association (ICA) was a Pakistani guy lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 22, 2008 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
random question but why is your prof pic souter?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I don’t really want a picture of myself there, and I like Souter. Seemed like a good fit.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very apropos
Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)
by Chase Irwin on Oct 21, 2008 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Indian
and I get that all the time.
by cashman on Oct 22, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I feel strongly about this particular point because of a picture I saw in a magazine. It was a photo-essay about troops who were serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And one picture at the tail end of this photo essay was of a mother in Arlington Cemetery and she had her head on the headstone of her son’s grave. And as the picture focused in you can see the writing on the headstone. And it gave his awards, Purple Heart, Bronze Star, showed that he died in Iraq, gave his date of birth, date of death. He was 20 years old. And then at the very top of the headstone, it didn’t have a Christian cross, it didn’t have a Star of David. It had a crescent and a star of the Islamic faith. And his name was Karim Rashad Sultan Khan. And he was an American, he was born in New Jersey, he was 14 at the time of 9/11 and he waited until he can go serve his counrty and he gave his lifegreat story. and very true….
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama is a Christian – He’s always been a Christian…But………what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that’s not America." Colin Powell on Obama/Muslim assertions.
shouldnt it say
Obama is a Christian – He’s always been a Christian…But………what if he is not? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no, that’s not America." Colin Powell on Obama/Muslim assertions.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 20, 2008 8:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No.
Like I answered you above, the question was about being a Muslim. Context is your friend.
by brettgardner on Oct 20, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs