MLB PA has Evidence of Collusion Against Bonds
by philkid3 on Oct 17, 2008 12:57 AM CDT
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NEW YORK (AP) — The baseball players' union says it has found evidence teams acted in concert against signing Barry Bonds but it reached an agreement with the commissioner's office to delay the filing of any grievance.
The union expressed concern in May about the lack of offers to the home run king. Filing a grievance would trigger proceedings before arbitrator Shyam Das.
Bonds was indicted last Nov. 15 on charges related to 2003 grand jury testimony during which he denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs. No team signed Bonds when he became a free agent after the 2007 season.
Union general counsel Michael Weiner confirmed the deal with Major League Baseball, which was first reported by murraychass.com.
"We have the agreement about the timing of a potential grievance," Weiner said Thursday. "Our investigation revealed a violation of the Basic Agreement. It's a violation of the Basic Agreement related to Barry Bonds and free agency."
Weiner said the section that had been violated was Article XX (e) of the collective bargaining agreement, which states, in part: "Players shall not act in concert with other players and clubs shall not act in concert with other clubs." Weiner would not say how long the agreement runs to allow the union to file a grievance.
Baseball attorneys repeatedly have denied that teams acted in concert against Bonds. Management lawyer Dan Halem said Thursday that MLB would have no additional comment.
Bonds pleaded not guilty to 14 counts of making false declarations to a federal grand jury and one count of obstruction of justice, and his trial is scheduled to start March 2. Any grievance is likely to follow the trial.
The players' association won three collusion grievances in which owners were found to have conspired against free agents following the 1985, 1986 and 1987 seasons. Management agreed in 1990 to settle those cases for $280 million and also agreed to a provision that future collusion would be subject to triple damages.
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I have no love for Bonds.
At all.
That said, I’ve suspected collusion for a while. I just think there is no way every single GM wasn’t interested in at the very least taking him up on his offer of playing for free and seeing if he could work out for them in a low risk situation.
And situations like Hicks saying he wouldn’t let Ryan go after him, and Maddon coming out one day and saying he wanted him then another saying he didn’t, and then LaRussa bitching about his front office not letting him persue Bonds. . .that stuff smelled sketchy.
I don’t exactly miss Bonds, but I hope the owners get it up the ass if there really was collusion.
heres my question though
how in the fuck were the dumb enough to actually have any record of this out there?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions
they=team ownership
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions
They're dumb people?
Seriously, I agree, they would have to be complete morons to have some record of this.
R
Baseball has been convicted of collusion plenty of times before.
I want to say, in my life time, three times convicted, once settled out of court.
This sort of insanity happens.
i think its ONLY 3 times ever
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
But
Probably only 3 times since the CBA prohibited it. You don’t think in the very early days of baseball owners didn’t do whatever they pleased?
o yea sorry thats what i meant
since it was “illegal”
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Triple damages would certainly hurt the anus
but just because no one wanted to touch his toxicity doesn’t mean it was collusion. I wonder what the proof could be.
1/20/09 - The end of a error.
I doubt collusion.
What GM in his right mind would want a guy who’d just been indicted and pay him a butt load of money? I doubt that even Jerry Jones would do that.
I'll bet there are a ton of GM's who would like to employ a player. . .
. . . who put up a 170 OPS+ the year before.
For a buttload of money maybe not, but you don’t know that until you make an offer, and none of them did. I find it hard to believe none of the GMs like the Epsteins and Beanes wanted anything to do with Bonds without their owners saying “no.”
Especially after he offered to play for league minimum.
Except
as has been stated many, many times in this thread, Bonds’ agent offered Bonds at minimum. Unless you think a couple hundred grand is a buttload of money, it pretty much destroys your premise.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Barry Bonds
He should, for the love of Pete, just fade off into obscurity.
He’s a hemorrhoid on the sphincter of society. The game is better with him out of it.
I personally think he should fight for his right to work.
And only be denied that right if teams individually decide he won’t help them win more baseball games.
by philkid3 on Oct 17, 2008 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Would Bonds really make a team better?
Bonds’ presence in the clubhouse is terrible. Those who play alongside him are intimidated by him and by his legions of “hangers on” and, especially in the case of the sTRangers, the younger players development would be impeded.
Would Bonds help a team? Yeah – but, probably not as much as he’d hurt it and the difference would be telling.
Ted Williams in the locker room was one of the factors that kept the Red Sox from winning for years. Everyone was so uptight and afraid to cross the vile-tempered superstar they couldn’t play effective, winning baseball. I’ve seen pictures and heard stories that Williams had a tremendous amount of disdain for younger players and that he would absolutely rain hell down on someone dumb enough to make a mistake. Makes it really hard to play loose and up to potential when all you can do is worry about not making the wrong move.
And, here in Texas, we’ve had Mark Teixeira and Alex Rodriguez. The size of their egos and the tremendous awe with which the younger players regarded them actually impeded their ability to rise up and smite the giants like the Angels, YankMes and Red Sox. Follow the leader – he’ll beat ‘em for us. ’Cept, of course, he COULDN’t by himself.
Bonds is not as great as he thinks he is (or even as great as the yellow journalists say he is). If he were, and if his presence would be beneficial to a team, he’d’ve been on a team.
If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! Ed
ummm
bonds has 3 of the best 4 seasons of OPS+ ever.
he has the 3rd highest OPS+ ever
hes pretty fucking good
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
"here in Texas, we’ve had Mark Teixeira and Alex Rodriguez"
Surrounded by a bunch of garbage players, especially pitchers, for the most part.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
And pussies
Don’t forget the pussies…..
If you can’t man up enough to play like a professional because of the big meanie sitting across the clubhouse then you are a pussy.
"Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states" - Barack Obama
by LSBUser on Oct 18, 2008 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions
My hope
is that he ends up sharing a jail cell with OJ
wow
Maybe Obama should join them as well?
This board amazes the mind.
"Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor"
Race
But, I don’t see anything from BEW where you can say he was being racist.
From what I can see, enut made an assumption here which I don’t think is particularly born out.
Of course, that’s with the caveat that there might be some prior issue with these two.
R
Was that comment THAT offensive?
I am at a loss. Are you offended because OJ is going to jail (probably), or that he wants Bonds in jail?
Look at his sig ( enu )
He is comparing Obama to Jesus and Sarah Palin to Pontius Pilate. That kind of explains everything. Probably feels like OJ should be given an apology by society at large
But enut was the one who brought up Obama
…not the other way around. I don’t think you can say that enut was offended about Obama comments if he is the only one making them?
Enut
For those who don’t know.
He’s a Giants fan and a big Bonds fan that goes back to the old ESPN message board days. He is also very liberal and takes any comments about the Giants, Bonds, or liberals very personally.
"Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states" - Barack Obama
by LSBUser on Oct 18, 2008 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions
The Gianst suck
Bonds sucks harder. And Obama could end up being worse than Bush. Screw liberals.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
mcain could be worse too
you never know
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Huh?
That’s ridiculous.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 17, 2008 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
where did that come from?
"I should apologize to girls for saying Sexson threw that helmet like a girl. I’m not even sure girls do that." - TAG 05/08/2008
by Captain Fubar on Oct 17, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
I figured they were doing it, I just didn’t think the MLBPA would find the evidence! I have trouble believing that Bonds could get no takers after asking for the minimum in mid year.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
well yea everone figured they were doing it
lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
bonds
i really dislike him, and honestly wish he’d just retire. BUT if a guy like him is wiling to take the minimum? you’ve got to consider that.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
I think you assume too much.
If he actually was willing to take the minimum, no doubt there is something fishy going on. I have to think he was asking more than Sosa was for a contract, and Sosa’s demands were obviously too high. I think there is no way Bonds would have played for the minimum. He’s not Julio Franco.
According to this week’s Sports Illustrated, Bonds is willing to play for the MLB minimum, prorated for the rest of the season. That’s about $150,000 for the rest of the season. What a bargain. Furthermore, he will not even keep the money. He plans to use it to buy tickets for under privileged kids.
heres what i think
bonds already knew that he was being colluded against
and made a comment like that to help show it?
bonds is a smart guy
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
in that case
he was smart to hire the agent :) lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
well duh
If a guy who gets on base 48% of the time can’t draw any interest the lines draw themselves. I mean Sidney Ponson was a waste that we picked up and kicked off the team for whatever reason yet he still got more chances, but a guy who would probably have been one of the best 3 or 4 hitters in the league doesn’t get a chance? Bonds and Borris knew there was collusion so did everyone else.
right
but the point was i dont think anyone thought the owners would be dumb enough to have any of it on record
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I 100% Agree
When he came out with that statement, exactly what I said was that he was putting the pressure on the owners to prove they weren’t colluding. Savvy move.
public statements
Bonds’ agent sent all 30 teams a letter saying he would play for the minimum so I have to assume it was true. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3486926
There obviously was something going on. Barry Bonds has become the equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer, Kenneth Lay, and Slobodan Milosevic all rolled into one to Major League Baseball. I don’t think they are at all woried about paying him $30-60M to keep him out of sight, out of mind, as long as he doesn’t play.
If that is true...
…it sure doesn’t look good for the owners. A letter declaring a willingness to play for the minimum would be circumstantial evidence, but pretty strong circumstantial evidence. I can’t stand Bonds, but seriously: stupid owners!
Some questions.
1. How do you punish every baseball team out there?
2. Do you think the Rangers are involved in this? I remember JD saying multiple times over the past few seasons, before Bonds was a FA, that there was no way he’d sign Bonds. Does that count as collusion?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
collusion
you punish the league as a whole and yes that includes Texas and all the other teams that did or didn’t want to sign him on their own reasons.
so what is the punishment?
Is it going to be like what happened in the past where MLB teams get charged 250 million (I’m guessing divided equally over each team).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Remember when Hicks came out and said Bonds was the only player he'd say "no" to?
If Nolan wanted to get him.
That’s not proof, but it raises your eye brows.
but JD had been saying that for a while IIRC
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 17, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
He said it at a Newberg Night I believe
As well as at a post-game Q&A with season ticket holders. This was in the middle of 07. He asked the crowd what they thought of bringing Bonds in, everyone booed, and JD basically said that that was their feelings on the issue. I don’t know how the Ranges could be involved in collusion after making it clear well before Bonds reached FA that they had no interest in bringing him in.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
If anyone can give a glimpse
of what Baseball America says about the Rangers international signings that would be neat.
Sounds like
business as usual from the quick summary.
…the Rangers spent more than $100,000 on seven different players
Sounds like we’re still taking the bunch of good-but-not-great players approach, which I’m pretty fond of, though obviously I wouldn’t mind a couple of big ticket guys. We got sniped on at least two big money guys from what I’ve read, so it seems like we were at least ready to go big on some people.
I’d like to see what the actual article says, too if someone w/ a subscription could give us the quick and dirty version.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 17, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
hmmm who has the least sense
the owners for letting this info get out or THIS guy
Harry (FL): Worst scout ever??? Gotta be the guy who thought it would be a good idea to draft Brien Taylor #1 for the Yankees, right?
Keith Law: He may have been the best high school pitching prospect of the last 20 years. He got hurt in a freak incident. Hard to kill the Yankees for that one
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
Reading the old scouting reports on Brien make him seem like a golden god.
His story sure is sad though. I remember reading an article on him a few years back and from what I remember let’s just say he did not manage his money well.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 17, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Nip, Nip
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
Very sad situation
He was a very gifted player, and even if he took steroids late in his career it can’t be denied that he was one of the best in the history of baseball.
I got news for some of you people on here, everybody makes mistakes and there are a lot of people in this world much worse than Barry Bonds.
Let the man work.
I'm actually surprised (pleasently) by the "positive" reaction towards the Bonds camp in this thread.
I don’t think there’s any reason for people to like Bonds, but folks have been very reasonable here, which is pretty cool.
I hesitate to agree with SGY because he's an
uberdoosh /jk/jk/jk….but I never had a problem with Bonds. He was a fantastic natural athlete, and exploited the system as it was then to his fullest advantage.
Was he a self centered dick? Hell ya…but I have worked for/with many of those and none where near as successful as Bonds.
He’ll get shafted & sullied by the gawd-fearin’ BB-fat ass-WA, yet all he did was work within the constructs of MLB rules to be the best he could be.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
It would seem to me ...
that in order to win, Bonds would have to have some evidence that an owner wanted to sign him and did not because of pressure from other owners. Even if that is true, you’d have to think it would be highly unlikely that any team’s ownership would document that they wanted to sign Bonds but didn’t because of pressure from the league. And owner would be slitting his own throat. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but if it has, then they deserve to get hammered.
None of this, naturally, changes my incredibly low opinion of Bonds.
Dallas's own Tim Cowlishaw had this to say on ATH:
There was never any indication from his agent that he would have played for a reasonable amount of money. It’s not like you could have gone out and signed him for a million dollars. He wanted a ton of money.
Which, as has been pointed out in this thread, is absolutely, 100% wrong. Reali gave him points and he went on to win.
Way to do your homework, Cowlishaw and Reali!
I laughed when I saw that
just thinking to myself, “Seriously? No one is going to talk about him playing for the league minimum?”
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Bringing up evidence
Might be a slippery slope, especially if it includes conversations with his agent. It would, or should, be possible to do a couple of things damaging to Bonds.
- establish that his probable legal position makes him unemployable
- add to the body of evidence that may be brought up in the perjury process
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Oct 17, 2008 5:01 PM CDT reply actions
I hate to be the guy that takes this sophisticated, high level discussion and brings it to 3rd grade,
but the Union lawyer’s last name is Weiner? Really? Never occurred to him to change it, or maybe use his middle name as a last name?
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
Well, when you're an attourney for an association of dickheads...
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
This was a seriously legitimate discussion and I genuinely felt bad for derailing it,
but I couldn’t get past the guy named Wiener. But I couldn’t believe I was the first comment out of 67 previous ones that realized this guy was named Wiener. Now on earth does he pick up chicks? Is he married? This man intrigues me…he is an enigma wrapped in a riddle smothered in secret sauce. My thirst for knowledge remains. I shall post any updates. Of any copies of restraining orders that get filed against me as I seek more information on the man named Wiener.
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
HOLY SHIT
that crazy bastard Michael “Savage” is really named Michael Wiener. There are a shitload of people named “Michael Wiener.” The real question: because I am fairly drunk, am I able to google them all? Probably not.
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
you have a great sn
excited for teh arrested development movie?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 18, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Man my head is hurting this morning
yes…you could not even imagine. Well, you probably could….but you get the idea.
"Does this effectively hide my thunder?"
I wonder how all the 1-3 players feel about
their union dues going to support Barry Bonds?
What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."
Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus
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