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The Rangers untouchable list

In the wake of Tom Hicks' latest declarations, we now have a definitive list of who, in the Ranger, organization, is untouchable.

Those players:

  • Thomas Diamond
  • Eric Hurley
  • Kasey Kiker
  • Blake Beavan
  • Michael Main
  • Neil Ramirez
  • Tommy Hunter

Why?  Because of this from Hicks:

"I can't imagine us trading a first-round draft choice pitching prospect ever again," Hicks said. "

So there you go.  The Rangers are talking to the Royals about Zack Greinke, and they want Kiker or Ramirez as part of the deal?  Screw you, Dayton Moore...you'll have to settle for a 3rd rounder like Matt Harrison or a 25th rounder like Derek Holland, or someone so lowly that they weren't even drafted, like Neftali Feliz or Martin Perez.

We'll have to get a ruling from Hicks if Robbie Ross, a first round talent who got first round money but was selected in the 2nd round, is covered by this edict.

But that's the lesson Hicks has apparently taken from the John Danks/Brandon McCarthy trade...pitchers taken in the first round are untouchable.

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In all fairness to Hicks,

Those guys shouldn’t really be traded anyhow. They all have very good upside. Oh, and I’m sure he wouldn’t trade Holland, Feliz, Harrison, or Ross right now either. He was just being specific on the 1st rounders.

by sidebar54 on Oct 2, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions  

in all fairness

i’d trade hurley for greinke every day of the week.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 2, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

and twice on sundays!

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich

by knockoutking on Oct 2, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

And...

Yep, you would, at that point, add him to the Young, Danks, Volquez saga……

Grienke and Hurley are almost the exact same pitcher when both healthy.

by sidebar54 on Oct 2, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yikes.

Well at least there’s somebody’s judgment I trust less than Tom Hicks’.

by brettgardner on Oct 2, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm

You can’t possibly really believe that.

by jthig32 on Oct 2, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

and he wouldnt trade ross

because he cant

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich

by knockoutking on Oct 2, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Regarding that quote

I don’t think Hicks really has any idea what he’s talking about.

by Joey Matschulat on Oct 2, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions  

regarding baseball

I don’t think Hicks really has any idea what he’s talking about.

"He wont have anything. 1 man, 0 tools."~ hiafex bout longhorn...

by ivysafety39 on Oct 2, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

and evidently soccer as well

go ask some liverpool fans…

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich

by knockoutking on Oct 2, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm going to disagree here

I think the spirit of his comment is more important than the 1st round quote. Do you really think he’s setting down a hard rule about 1st round draft choices? Hicks is stupid, but parsing this quote is just piling on.

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.

by t ball on Oct 2, 2008 9:44 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed,

Where as I do believe there are a couple in that group that could be termed as “untouchable,” not all of them are. I agree t ball, i think it’s more the “idea” of the quote than anything.

by sidebar54 on Oct 2, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Easy

The point is that you don’t trade away high ceiling pitchers (such as normally first round draft picks). He seems to have learned to trust his people on how they value talent in house. That is a good thing. To see most of those guys make a real impact (including Adams list), it will still be about 3 to 4 years. Take whatever positive pill you can take, and avoid drinking the nasty stuff because the Rangers are still far away from a championship legacy which we all dream about.

"Purity of heart is to will one thing" - Kierkegaard

by outofnace on Oct 2, 2008 9:45 AM CDT reply actions  

Hicks

I hear a reference to two things:

1. This team’s pitching sucks.

2. Up-and-coming pitching is frequently taken in the first round.

This quote has nothing to do with the Rangers’ problems. It’s just a clunky public declaration.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Oct 2, 2008 9:46 AM CDT reply actions  

You say that

Yet it is completely contradicted by the record. It’s not really fair to draw fanciful inferences that are not supported by what he actually said. It’s no different than putting a made-up negative spin on something Hicks said.

by brettgardner on Oct 2, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

You know what else is untouchable? The Featured Poll

Who is the hottest female supporting character on the Simpsons?

  • Cookie Kwan
  • Helen Lovejoy
  • Edna Krabapple
  • Lindsey Nagle
  • Maude Flanders
  • Apu’s wife
  • Homer’s Vegas wife
  • Ned’s Vegas wife
  • Mrs. Hoover
  • Patty and/or Selma

It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin

by txranger7 on Oct 2, 2008 10:03 AM CDT reply actions  

Oh snap...

…seriously, I’d enjoy a new poll too.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 2, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow Adam

Someone tinkle in your Wheaties this morning? That post is dripping of angry sarcasm.

"But the major difference is where Showalter tried to overthink everything Washington at times seems like he isn't thinking at all. " - rentz

by hillcrest on Oct 2, 2008 10:03 AM CDT reply actions  

Hicks

we should really take a lesson from our liverpool brothers and protest hicks and call for him to sell the team.
(then again its not exactly working for them)

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 2, 2008 10:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Jeez Adam

Overreact much? He answered a question; he didn’t issue an edict.

You lawyers can just twist words anyway you want to attempt to get your desired result…

by Droopydave on Oct 2, 2008 10:10 AM CDT reply actions  

Twist?

He just quoted the exact words used by Hicks. Just because he was answering a question doesn’t mean Hicks couldn’t have thought about what he was saying.

by brettgardner on Oct 2, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

To be sure

what Hicks said is dumb, as if that’s news. But I don’t see the point of a special post just to point out this one sentence. Does anyone really think that Ryan and Daniels will never consider any trade involving a first round draft pick no matter who is coming the other way? Or does anyone really think that Hicks meant first round choices and only first round choices?

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.

by t ball on Oct 2, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not a lawyer...

…but I twisted his words anyway.

But that’s just because I enjoy anything that makes Hicks look foolish, fair or unfair.

Nica avatar BTW.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 2, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ut Oh it's that time of year folks.....

when BIg Daddy does his bull in the china store imitation.

Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08

by LAMuscleFag on Oct 2, 2008 10:39 AM CDT reply actions  

AJM..

.. not your best effort here. Hicks really seems to get under your skin. Let it go!! He’s not going away, and he’s an idiot. Let’s just be glad he’s stepped away from the decision making. Nothing he says is his original thought.

by mattrpav on Oct 2, 2008 11:32 AM CDT reply actions  

Let's not forget...

and that it’s also ironic that under Hicks’ new plan, we would not have Josh Hamilton, (pitching for non pitcher) and if the Rays actually used this plan, they would never have gotten rid of Hamilton because not only was Hamilton a first round pick, but he was the first pick overall (no trading first rounders).

Hicks = Idiot

by FuturePants on Oct 2, 2008 11:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Volquez and Hamilton

Volquez was not a 1st rounder and Hamilton was not traded by the Rays

by bushe on Oct 2, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

Hamilton was released, which we can all agree is more extreme than trading.

by FuturePants on Oct 2, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hamilton was a rule 5 pick

by the Cubs. The Cubs then traded him to the Reds.

by Stephen Rushin on Oct 2, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

This whole situation annoys me

Surely Hicks just meant that we will avoid dealing our highly touted minor league pitchers. (or so I hope)

I mean surely if Hicks was told about the opportunity to acquire a 24 year old with a 3.47 ERA in 2008 and a 130 ERA+, he wouldn’t object to including Hurley, Kiker, or Ramirez in such a deal.

Nevertheless, the general attitude by Ryan and Hicks is more than a little worrisome. Clearly, the Rangers problem is not developing young pitching, but instead having minor league success translate into major league success. I highly doubt such a consistent problem can be solved by pushing pitchers harder. That seems like an incredibly short-sided solution to a complex and delicate problem. Did Danks figure it out with Chicago, or Galarraga in Detroit because they were pushed harder? Did Volquez pitch like a Cy Young award winner because the Rangers were no longer coddling them? Of course not. They are very talented pitchers who either were given an opportunity (Volquez), improved their repertoire by adding a new pitch (Danks), or maybe even got a little lucky (Galarraga).

If anything, you risk exacerbating the problem by forcing a heavy load on a young pitcher.

Daniels hasn’t been perfect. He screwed up with the Danks for McCarthy trade, in retrospect. At the same time, I can’t stand this view that with Ryan in charge, the Rangers will never make another mistake again. I also can’t stand that many in the local media completely ignore the very prudent and intelligent moves made by Daniels to amass the best farm system in all of baseball.

I understand the desire to fix the pitching problem internally, but if the Rangers have the chance to acquire Greinke, or Nolasco, or Cain, we shouldn’t hesitate because the Danks trade failed.

by Stephen Rushin on Oct 2, 2008 11:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Hmmm....

So, granted it was only 4 starts, but you would trade a 22 yr. old Hurley that you have under control for 6 years for a 24 yr. old that you have for 2. Hmm, that makes a lot of sense. Especially after the numbers Hurley put up after his first 4 big league starts.

by sidebar54 on Oct 2, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

I mean Hurley posted a 4.83 ERA at AAA in 2008, allowing over a hit per inning and a lot of home runs.

In the majors he posted a 5.47 ERA. I realize, he has loads of talent. Nevertheless, I think Hurley projects to be more of a inning-eater like Rick Helling than a top of the rotation starter. But that is just my personal opinion. I have watched him pitch multiple times in person, I like him a lot, but I still don’t think he has anywhere near the upside of Greinke.

I also wouldn’t discount the possibility that having Greinke for two years would increase our chances to resign him after 2010.

But ultimately, your sarcasm aside, I think the point I made was valid; just because the Danks trade failed, we shouldn’t suddenly avoid trading any pitchers in the right deal. Whether you agree with my evaluation of Hurley is beside the point. Whether the pitcher is Nolasco, Greinke, Cain, or someone else, we shouldn’t refuse to give up young pitching if we feel that we get a better pitcher back in return.

by Stephen Rushin on Oct 2, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well,

Let’s be honest, we can’t count that last start of his. It was obvious to those viewing and those that were part of the game, Hurley was not healthy during that start. While Hurley was healthy, he posted a 3.57 ERA in 4 starts. I think that’s pretty impressive. And by what was posted in another thread, that is far better than the way Danks started in his first four starts. We see how good Danks has been this year. Is it possible Hurley could be that good?

I see where you are going with your point. I am not saying that it is in fact invalid. But, when you get burned by trading good pitching talent, it will make you gunshy to make any other moves. To be honest, there are some people I would trade and some I wouldn’t. I would not trade Hurley for Nolasco, Cain, or Greinke myself. Again, we have our opinions. I would hate to see Greinke have a good season or two in a Rangers uniform then leave while seeing Hurley with another team for 5 years possibly showing he can be lights out. I think Hurley and Greinke are just about the same exact pitcher when it comes to actual “stuff.” Again, just my opinion.

by sidebar54 on Oct 2, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess we can agree to disagree

But I would say that the general opinion of Hurley and Greinke is very different. Their track records seem to illustrate how different they really are. Greinke posted a 2.97 ERA in the minor leagues with a 1.06 WHIP, 7.83 hits per 9 IP, and 1.70 BB per 9 IP. Hurley, by comparison has posted a 3.97 ERA in the minors with a 1.24 WHIP, 8.14 hits per IP, and over 3 walks per 9 IP.

That doesn’t even consider how successful Greinke has been in the majors.

Hurley is a nice pitcher, but I don’t think there is ANY comparison between their results at similar ages. Greinke throws harder, has better secondary pitches, and much better control over his career.

I think the concern over signability after two years is completely reasonable. If I were dealing for Greinke, that would be the single biggest drawback, and a reason why I would definitely prefer Nolasco (under control for 4 years) over Greinke. But it sounds like even if the Rangers were able to sign Greinke to say a 4 year contract, you would still object to trading Hurley in order to acquire him.

That is a point that I truly disagree with. I do not think that any pitcher not named Holland, Feliz, or maybe Main should be “off-limits” in trade discussions with this team. There is little statistical evidence to suggest that any pitcher besides these two has a real good chance to be a top of the rotation pitcher. The Danks-McCarthy trade looks bad now, but at the time, it looked like an acceptable move. Sure, it didn’t work out, but not every trade will. Ultimately, I think you have to look at trades as singular and unique events. They should be evaluated at the time they are made based on the costs and risks and judging/reacting to them ex-post seems a little questionable. You shouldn’t let the failure of one prevent you from making a trade in the future that could benefit the club.

I’m not so sure Danks would have even had the same level of success had he been a Ranger. It seems like a lot of his success was contingent on him learning a new pitch this season.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens this off-season and I hope I am wrong and that Hurley will prove me wrong and develop into a Greinke level pitcher.

by Stephen Rushin on Oct 2, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wrong...

Zach Grienke was a 6th overall pick in the first round.

So we would be getting a better first rounder in return.

Today is the youngest you will ever be. Act like it.

by miles on Oct 2, 2008 2:33 PM CDT reply actions  

and why are you so mad about this?

we have learned to not trade young, talented pitchers

"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008

To: Luis Mendoza "Please die in a fire." LSJ; PLEASE

by Seth. on Oct 2, 2008 3:07 PM CDT reply actions  

What I get from the Hicks quotation

Isn’t much more than that he really doesn’t have a grasp on the relationship between draft choices and their role in building MLB teams that can deliver good performance.

Sometimes a first rounder is vital to a need. Sometimes is the ‘best player available’. Sometimes is depth for future use. Sometimes is redundant to your present and future strengths (enabling that choice or the player he’s redundant to, to be a valuable commodity in trade). There is no categorical ‘first rounder perspective’ guide.

So setting any protocol that first round pitchers must be kept is about as effective as the Bass brothers’ attempt to corner the silver market. Just when you think you’ve done so, what you really need is somewhere else.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Oct 2, 2008 4:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Cornering the silver market

Wasn’t it the Hunts who tried to corner the silver market? That was before my time, so I’m not real sure.

It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin

by txranger7 on Oct 2, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

It probably was

I tend to mix up names, particularly those of the obscenely wealthy. Let’s see, or was it the Blues Brothers? Heh.

Anyway, the Rangers have hoarded catchers and pitchers the past couple of years. Let’s hope those who make the ML shine, and those who are moved elsewhere bring back good talent.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Oct 2, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

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