OT: Argumentation

Howdy Doody.
Hey miles, I learned something at college, too!
I'm curious as to LSB's opinion (especially the lawyers and future brettgardners) on the actual argument, in general. I figure if we spend a significant amount of time doing just that on this site, we could probably benefit from Hermagoras' breakdown, from classical rhetorical theory.
Hermagoras of Temnos's Stasis System
- Developed around 150 BCE; variations used for next 2000 years. All arguments will essentially boil down to the following four questions:
1. Question of Fact (conjectural stasis): whether something was, is, or will be.
2. Question of Definition (definitional stasis): what is the proper definition of something, its essence, nature, name, proper conception, or placement within a classification system. There are common ways to argue for a specific definition:
a) common usage: our definition has wide use and acceptance.
b) authority: our definition is used by those with highest sanction or authority.
c) good and evil consequences: our definition does not produce unfortunate results, such as confusion, error, inconsistency, etc.
d) defective definition: opponent's definition is opposed by obvious facts, is too narrow or broad, incompatible with other definitions, contains an equivocation, etc.
3. Questions of Quality (qualitative stasis): what value or appreciation properly attaches to a thing or act. Here are some common ways to argue that our evaluation of something is correct:
a) facts: sometimes parties don't know or believe the same facts about a case: the addition of the new fact will give a new evaluation to the object under dispute.
b) example: sometimes we argue that if we believe A to be of certain quality, then we must also believe B to have the same, since it is so similar to or of the same type as A.
c) authority: something has a certain value because some authority figure says it does.
d) consistency: something in the past has been given the same value: or, principles now held require you to value this according to those principles.
e) good and evil consequences: something is of a certain quality because of the harmful or beneficial outcomes related to it.
4. Questions of Procedure (procedural stasis): argument or charge is made in the wrong place or manner and so should be dismissed.
These are the potential sticking points or issues about which you might dispute in all arguments, in descending order of strength: these may overlap or exist simultaneously in a single argument. The question of fact is usually the strongest position to defend. However, the majority of disputes will boil down to definitions, naturally. The question of quality always looms because you can step back and argue that "it's not that big of a deal, ..." However, if you skip the first three sticking points, your argument will most likely be ruined.
I think this accurately describes the majority of disputes anywhere, so I thought I would solicit opinions. As always, the burden of proof lies with the claimant.
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Dammit!!
I thought this post was about implants
by robert_d_wilfong on
Oct 20, 2008 6:44 PM CDT
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Nah
It’s just arguing about arguing. Spare time will do that to you.
Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)
by Chase Irwin on
Oct 20, 2008 7:02 PM CDT
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I'm a lawyer
And I’m not sure what you just said or the purpose of this diary (I’m not saying it’s pointless, just not sure of the point). At the end, you ask for an opinion of…I’m not sure. But I’m going out on a huge limb here because you might be posting this to see what arrogant asshole takes you up on this discussion. If that’s the case, please don’t mistake me for being arrogant – just a failure to recognize bait.
I think the most important aspect of a case/argument is the definition. From there, you try to work the facts to fit the definition so that when the facts are presented, you fit into the definition. Underlying everything is the Question of Quality – is what you’re seeking/arguing for “fair.” Although your facts may fit the definition, if the ultimate result is perceived as unfair, a decisionmaker will go out of their way to avoid it. That also applies to questions of procedure.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on
Oct 20, 2008 8:15 PM CDT
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Yikes, dude
All I did was share material that I found relevant and interesting for a message board. There’s no need to fish for ulterior motives, here.
RE: Opinions — about anything related to argumentation, that’s all. I was just wondering if people are in agreement with this because I had never looked at it that way — it’s not like some certified truth that should never be blasphemed?
Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)
by Chase Irwin on
Oct 20, 2008 8:34 PM CDT
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Argumentation
is very ON topic here.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on
Oct 20, 2008 8:48 PM CDT
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Whoops!
=)
Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)
by Chase Irwin on
Oct 20, 2008 9:20 PM CDT
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Your sig
How long have you had the opening of Beethoven’s 5th as your sig, t ball?
And how many others noticed it before I did?
by mparks on
Oct 21, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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Good catch
You’re only the 2nd to notice, Black Francis I think was the other, but he asked what it was instead of guessing right. I’ve had it up there for a couple weeks I think.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on
Oct 21, 2008 3:16 PM CDT
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I was wondering
Makes sense now that I know.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on
Oct 21, 2008 3:41 PM CDT
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I caught it a few weeks ago
but figured that you made it your sig because of a fanpost discussion I missed (since I’ve sat out all of the political discussions).
Now I know to say something so I look smart, too.
by jwiscarson on
Oct 21, 2008 5:03 PM CDT
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REC
Nice post Chase, though I’ll admit a lot of this might be a little over my head. I’ll probably need to read it 2-3 times before I get the entire point, but thanks for sharing.
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
by lonestarJon on
Oct 20, 2008 9:01 PM CDT
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Well if we're going to all post what we learned in school
I could post a couple of paragraphs about hemorrhoids and how they could be a sign you’re about to die. Any takers? How about a previous lesson over hernias? Hey, it’s relevant because of Kinsler!
Really though, I don’t see how you lawyers can eat that stuff up. I mean it’s not that what you’re talking about is impossible to understand, but if I had to sit in class all day every day hearing about how to argue I’d end up in the mental ward before the month is out.
Anyway I’m glad you guys love this stuff, even if it gives me a headache…
Kudos though for some stimulating talk.
by TRanger on
Oct 20, 2008 10:34 PM CDT
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Thoughtful
Not a lawyer, but did participate in speech forensics. Debate and oratory. Without credentials, I’d hope to put basis in fact far ahead of what is usually trotted out in order to be persuasive. And I’d look early on for validity of procedure, since a lot of breath (and bandwidth) is spent on issues that in the end, don’t really matter.
Definition and Quality are the two specious areas, to me. They are both the root and the delivery mechanism for disinformation, propaganda, and (gulp) assumptions about the intent of rhetoric, particularly political rhetoric. Just a casual MHO.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Oct 20, 2008 10:53 PM CDT
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