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Around SBN: Gary Carter, Mets All-Time Great Catcher, Has Died

Goldstein on Borbon's defense

XXX (YYY): Julio Borbon's defense -- gold glove caliber? Enough above-average to carry what will probably be a sub-par (even for a CF'er) bat? Overrated? Average?

Kevin Goldstein: Gold Glove is pushing it. He's a good in center for sure, but not elite. Also, his arm is pretty weak. He has a weird set of skills. Can hit, can run, but doesn't have a leadoff man approach

Well, this is more in line with my impression than Aaron Fitt's take.

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his arm is "pretty weak"

There you have it.

What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."

Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus

by tricer on Oct 21, 2008 1:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Borbon

It seems most people who have seem him throw agree that his arm is average at best. How average (or below-average) has been the real debate.

Personally, I think his arm strength is fairly weak, but his glove-to-hand transfer is smooth and his release is quick making his overall throwing ability average in my opinion.

by jparks77 on Oct 21, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I seem to remember some back and forth

between you and I on this topic. I think I called his arm “weak” and you took issue with that assertion.

What would you ask Nolan Ryan: "... as a former pitcher, what would you think about having a useless lug standing out there behind you."

Then I'd tell him that useless lug’s name is Michael Young. -- lonestarJesus

by tricer on Oct 21, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think I've ever...

…denied he doesn’t have a good arm.

I think where I’ve taken issue is when people have suggested his arm is so weak as to be a significant liability in CF, a la Juan Pierre.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 21, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Time

I think the question has to be where his arm will be over time. It’s not going to get much better, if at all, and it will get worse as he gets older (Johnny Damon comes to mind). So if his main asset is his speed and quickness in center, that won’t last forever.

by Andy Seiler on Oct 21, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

IT

duh, keep up man

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 22, 2008 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Borbon

Of the 5 skills, which do you concede first?

If the player can spray the ball, run into a few extra base hits and not be Rob Deer, get underneath almost everything in CF, and generally hold up in the 8th/9th spot for 500 ABs…how catastrophic a problem is that?

Julio Borbon’s arm does not render the player harmful to the ML team.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Oct 21, 2008 1:51 PM CDT reply actions  

If you're asking me

I’m really only concerned with the range issue. His arm isn’t a big deal.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 21, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

And

…it’s not like he’s got a Covelli arm or anything like that.

by Jamey Newberg on Oct 21, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, jeez.

It’s really that bad?

Are we talking Johnny Damon now or young Johnny Damon? Cause young Johnny Damon could at least throw from shallow left-center field to 3b without needing a cutoff man. Now Johnny Damon is an abject disaster. If it’s really that bad then we need to reevaluate the idea that he can be a starting CF’er in the big leagues.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 21, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

no

he’s definitely got a better arm than Damon; it’s also better than Tom Goodwin’s arm

by mjh on Oct 22, 2008 4:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm gonna go with April '10 on that.

Just because I think a Byrd/Hambone/Cruz OF has the potential to be super good in ’09.

Going forward though… The thought of rolling into ‘10 with Andrus and Borbon giving us plussy-plus defense at the two most important defensive positions (and, it should be noted, two positions where we’ve been pretty bad the last few years)is enough to make my underwears fit a little bit tighter.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 21, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Catcher

Plus potentially Teagarden giving plus defense at the next most valuable position.

"LSB: We’re all-scaploading, all the time." -AJM

by BAC on Oct 21, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

hahaha

Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08

by LAMuscleFag on Oct 21, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

average

I think that if Borbon turns out to be a near average ML starter you have to be thrilled with the pick and he is already pretty close to this. The beauty is that he could be much more.

by bushe on Oct 21, 2008 1:57 PM CDT reply actions  

I disagree

I don’t think he could be much more. I think his offensive upside is limited, because he doesn’t walk and doesn’t have a ton of power, which means he likely is going to be what he’s going to be, which is an upside of a good, not great, major league centerfielder.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 21, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

i think bushe is trying to say

that the odds of him being a good ML CF are fairly good

but if something happens (say he get hit in the head and learns to magically take a walk) he can be a great CF?)

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)

by knockoutking on Oct 21, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

pretty much

I don’t think he’ll ever be a “great” CF because they Griffeys and Sizemores are much better players than I think he’ll ever be. I do think that he could be the kind of guy who has a 10 year ML career and sneaks into an AS game here or there. The absolute upper level of what I think he could be is Ichiro in a down year without the awesome arm. And who knows maybe he sees a Reyes of sunshine and figures out this whole walking thing.

by bushe on Oct 21, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Granderson

He was Detroit’s #1 prospect after the 2004 season. Here’s BA’s strengths/weaknesses for him:

Strengths: Granderson is a classic line-drive, gap-to-gap hitter. He has a quick and compact batting stroke, a good grasp of the strike zone and identifies pitches early. He made an adjustment to become more selective upon reaching Double-A, as reflected in his career-best 80 walks. His gap-hitting approach seems tailor-made for Detroit’s spacious Comerica Park. Once labeled as a corner outfielder who wouldn’t have enough power to play every day in the majors, Granderson nearly doubled his previous career high in homers and made defensive strides in center field. He gets good jumps and takes correct routes to the ball. His range is average for center and above average on the corners. Granderson’s arm is accurate, and he’s a smart player who throws to the right base. His makeup and work habits are outstanding, as evidenced by his decision to complete his college degree after signing as a junior. He shows the potential to be a clubhouse leader if he continues to perform on the field.

Weaknesses: Granderson isn’t going to produce big-time power. He benefited from playing his home games at Erie’s cozy Jerry Uht Park, though 13 of his 21 homers and 27 of his 48 extra-base hits came on the road. Another rap on Granderson was that many scouts considered him a fringe-average runner who lacked the speed of a true center fielder. Now there are just as many scouts who say that knock is overstated, however, and that his speed may actually rate a tick above average.

He was also named the prospect in the Tiger organization with the best strike zone judgment.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 21, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heh
he’s a smart player who throws to the right base.

This cracks me up.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Oct 21, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is funny to read

But if you’ve ever watched any low level baseball you would be amazed at how many guys fail to hit the cut off man or throw to the wrong base from the OF. It’s really amazing how refined MLB is compared to the lower levels of the minors.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, actually

as a ranger fan of 30 years I have seen a buttload of throws to the wrong base in our own beloved Arlington

by BEW on Oct 21, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL Touche

Obviously it happens now and again. Look at Gabe Gross’s the other night, he spiked one in the dirt and completely missed the cutoff man on another. I was just saying it’s one of many aspects of Baseball some think is just automatic when it really isn’t.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gabe Gross< Willy Aybar < Eric Hinske

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gabe Gross<Rocco Baldelli

Upon further reflection.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice

beat me to it.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 21, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

damn

submitted like 15 questions to the chat and KG had to leave bc of ISP issues lol

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)

by knockoutking on Oct 21, 2008 2:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Kentucky

Maybe they commandeered his domain name.

by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 21, 2008 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Winner.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 21, 2008 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hadn't seen this anywhere on here.

 Q: Joseph Wall from Fort Worth, TX asks:
What is your opinion of Escobar, the LHP the Rangers signed? I read that he can already touch 92 mph and has good feel for a curve and change. That velocity seems pretty impressive to me for a lefty his age. Thanks for the chat.
 A:

Ben Badler: A good lefty, good bloodlines and reasonably priced. The body is a little more mature than most Latin Americans his age, and he’s usually working more in the high-80s. That is good velo for a lefty his age, and he shows the ability to spin his breaking ball already, which is obviously a good sign at that age.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 3:51 PM CDT reply actions  

More Ranger Love

 Q: Elliot from Youngstown OH asks:
Abner Abreu was the slugging star of the GCL this summer, leading the league in SLG, HR, 2B, TB. His younger brother was supposed to be better. Is he and has he signed?
 A:

Ben Badler: Yes, his younger brother Esdras signed with the Rangers. They sound like similar players, including both the raw power and the strong questions that Abner will have to answer about his plate discipline.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Similar players

So I guess that makes him a Li’l Abner?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 21, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

where is the chat from?

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)

by knockoutking on Oct 21, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

He did a chat on the same day he posted the ALW international signings rewview. It would be under that topic.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 21, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baseball America

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Oct 21, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

thx

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)

by knockoutking on Oct 21, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Borbon

he’s the guy whose trade value / real value is highest right now (along with maybe Laird), and so I’m eager to see the Rangers move in a package for a starter.

by JBImaknee on Oct 21, 2008 4:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Borbon = Juan Pierre?

Weak arm, won’t draw walks, low OBP. Kinda sounds like Ramon Nivar too if you’re the pessimistic type.

"Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps."
- Emo Phillips

by Rangerchick on Oct 21, 2008 8:56 PM CDT reply actions  

i would say

he is already a much better defensive CF than Nivar.

by clark on Oct 21, 2008 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Optimists live longer.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 21, 2008 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is true!

poor LBrooks!

Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08

by LAMuscleFag on Oct 21, 2008 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you oc's

fem persona? So much negativity…

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2

by Rodney on Oct 22, 2008 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Geez

we’ve never heard such a comparison before. Why don’t you go back to regaling us with how Matt Harrison has the weakest arm you’ve ever seen.

blogs.usd.edu/usddems

by FirebatM3 on Oct 22, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Harrison

He had zero outfield assists this year, how do you explain that?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 22, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

They wouldn't let him out there...

…‘fraid he’d hurt himself – Nollie’ll fix that, tho – all the pitchers are going to hold their own water this year. They GOTTA be tougher… !

If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! Ed

by eglooney on Oct 22, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I deserve the razzing.

Can’t help being a little pessimistic. I’m old enough that I remember Nix and Mateo and Nivar and how highly touted they were and how disappointing they ended up being.

As for Harrison, I automatically think Rheinecker, Koronka, and Gabbard whenever I hear “finesse-oriented”.

Guess I’m just hesitant to be hopeful after all these past disappointments.

"Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps."
- Emo Phillips

by Rangerchick on Oct 22, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're not finesse oriented

when you’re a lefty that can throw a fastball in the 93-95 mph and have the secondary pitches he does. The guys you listed had a decent slider or curveball or whatever, but nothing as good as Harrison’s. None of them also had anything like the fastball Harrison has.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Oct 22, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heh

I definitely read this out of context at first:

“I’m old enough”

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 22, 2008 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you're gay?

To each his own …

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 23, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

They wouldn't let him out there...

…‘fraid he’d hurt himself – Nollie’ll fix that, tho – all the pitchers are going to hold their own water this year. They GOTTA be tougher… !

If at first you don't succeed, try the outfield! Ed

by eglooney on Oct 22, 2008 11:20 AM CDT reply actions  

did we draft borbon

as a need as oppose to taking the best player available?

by Aneel on Oct 22, 2008 11:22 PM CDT reply actions  

considering

that most mock drafts had Borbon in the 1st round….

by octoberty on Oct 23, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I definitely think that

he was the top guy on their board at that point.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 23, 2008 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

wasn't

matt harvey still available?

by Aneel on Oct 23, 2008 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

he lasted like another 90-100 picks after Borbon was taken due to his contract demands. The Angels took him but didn’t sign him.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Oct 23, 2008 5:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure that

Harvey was off their board at that point. I think they’ve even come out and said that they didn’t view him as signable, and he obviously wasn’t as it turned out.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 23, 2008 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, he was.

The Angels went cheap and lost him over a small sum, IIRC. They were incredibly stupid to not pay for him at that value.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 23, 2008 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’ve heard anywhere from 1.5 to 2 million, but according to him that wasn’t anywhere near close enough to sign him. And he said " I’ll just go to school and be a top-five pick in three years and double what I could get now." Whatever the Angels did, the Rangers obviously didn’t view him as very signable, because they had numerous more picks to use on him before the Angels picked him.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 23, 2008 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I looked this up a while back

It was actually $1.5 offered / $2.5 asked. Still, in hindsight, wouldn’t you agree that he was worth it?

http://www.lonestarball.com/2007/8/19/11589/7300#2673412

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 24, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Money

just because he asked for 2.5 doesn’t mean he would necessarily take it and not go to college.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 24, 2008 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus

what Chase is arguing isn’t quite the issue. The initial point was that they took Borbon as a positional reach, and that they might have taken Harvey if it weren’t for the need to secure a good CF. And that argument is negated by the fact that the Rangers also took pitchers Neil Ramirez, Tommy Hunter and Evan Reed, along with Matt West, before Harvey went off the board. They obviously didn’t think that Reed was a better pitching prospect than Harvey. Whether it was a correct judgment or not, they refused to pick him because of cost/signability issues, not because they needed other things more.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 24, 2008 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Still

If you’re the Angels, you pay for that guy. It’s $1 million dollars difference on a clearly projectable stud.

I would have definitely paid that in the 3rd round. If he doesn’t accept it fine, but at least offer what he’s asking.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by inactive lsb user on Oct 25, 2008 3:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.And he would have given the Angels a pretty nice succession of Adenhart to Walden to Harvey, all different types of over slot guys.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 25, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

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