New election thread
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 5:36 PM CDT
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PrintThe old one was full.
Keep it civil, and keep the political discussion confined to this thread.
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Election
I’ve still got to get my early voting done, but even the early voting locations have been packed. Theres going to be some long lines on election day
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
i didnt go in
but the parking lot was packed, and i was told by people who did go that it was about a 30person deep line. heck last presidential election i voted in was a line about that long day of the election
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
regarding the video link
in the OTHER thread
this one
wow. he schooled her. it’s one thing to ask hard questions, but she had an agenda. i could imagine hannity asking those questions (though with quite a different inflection).
i wonder how the other VP candidate would have done with those questions. we already know how they reacted to the really tough couric and gibson interviews
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
I think...
all candidates should get tough questions. Hell, do you ever watch the questions for the Prime Minister over in the UK?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i know
but it’s not fair that biden and palin are the only ones that get tough interviews. we wanna see obama and mccain on the hotseat!
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Tough questions
Are one thing. Agenda-pieces are something else. That’s why the Gibson/Palin interview in particular was pretty unpalatable, as are those videos with that hacky Joan Rivers clone.
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
same woman interviewing mccain
http://www.wftv.com/video/17712615/index.html
notice a difference in the line of questioning? she’s not feeding him obama talking points.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Yeah
ab posted that as the last comment in the other thread. That’s what my comment below was addressing.
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
my mistake
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
No problem
Sorry for the confusion. I actually wrote that post below in the other thread, only to see a “comments have been closed” message.
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I love PM's question hour
CSPAN wed. afternoons. Watch it as often as I can.
Did you watch both Barabara West interviews? Heaping helping of bias there, no?
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 25, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I think...
both campaigns should be subjected to questioners with bias.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i agree
i was thinking that the west interview is pretty much as bad as it can get in terms of bias questions and it still has some merit. I think an independent voter can hash through the agendas to figure out who is right and who is wrong. as long as the candidate gets to answer the question, i think it is fine.
at least, my thinking is that i would gladly subject joe biden to one of those if i could subject mccain or palin to one from the opposite side.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
well
the question about marxism is just stupid (with the quote). Otherwise, not a bad set of questions. they are basically republican talking points and what gets said about obama/biden in the right leaning media. why not ask him what he thinks about it?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
No argument from me there
But, would you admit that what you saw was a clear case of conservative media bias, and if not, why not?
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 25, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I would say...
that the correspondent definitely asked questions that conservatives would want her to ask.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Meh.
I’m not disputing that, although the way she framed the questions is another matter.
My question to you is, after watching both interviews, did you not detect a clear difference in the line of questioning, one that clearly favored McCain?
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 25, 2008 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't see...
A McCain interview.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
it's here
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
I would have liked...
to see her ask the same types of questions to McCain.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
right
at least you are honest. her station’s response to being boycotted by the obama campaign is something like, “we only get 5 minutes. usually stations ask softball questions. we did not.”
but that doesn’t hold water when you see that they soft balled mccain and did the mccain campaign talking points to biden.
i did look that station’s ownership and was surprised to see that they own the atlanta daily constitution which has endorsed obama. same thing with the dayton daily news. either the anchor is out of line or the news director has an agenda. either way i think this ends up making the station look foolish. the obama campaign would look foolish if they had indeed treated mccain the same way but weren’t boycotted.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
If I were running a campaign...
and felt like I were being mistreated, I would welcome the hostile interviews. I would make a big deal out of it. “Look, we’re being treated like shit, but it doesn’t matter because I have the better ideas.”
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i'm sure
that this will be on the morning shows tomorrow. and hopefully they play the answers from biden and not just the parts where he’s like, “you’re kidding me” and “who wrote these questions”. hopefully they show that he actually kicked some butt. i think this could actually make the obama biden campaign look good. people will ask themselves how palin would have done. biden is kind of buried in the news anyway, anything that shows him a competent and smart guy is a good thing…especially when they compare him to palin.
but yeah, as far as mccain’s campaign i don’t see why they would say no to it. they are at a point where it seems nothing can hurt. the obama campaign though have to be the careful ones.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Wow
That is astonishingly obvious bias from a local newscaster. I’m used to seeing that sort of thing from O’Reilly or Olbermann maybe, but from a local broadcast? “Why aren’t you going after Obama?” Wow.
Good old liberal media bias must have escaped her somehow.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
o'reilly is not on the olbermann level
now hannity…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
O'reilly
is worse
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i was under the impression that oreilly < hannity to most ppl who were liberal (at this point in time)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
O'reilly is much worse
than Olbermann.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
how so?
whose more partisan (openly)
o’reilly or hannity?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
They are both
obviously in the RNC’s back pocket. I thought it was funny when John Stewart played tape of O’Reilly criticizing Lynne Spears for having teenage daughters pump out out of wedlock children, and then excusing Palin for the same thing.
O’Reilly is just another hypocritical douche.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
heh
most of the ppl on MSM are hypocrittical
i have a question for you about rove (down at the bottom)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
hannity is in the RNC's pocket
of course, but o’reilly is not. he has conceded when he knows the repubs is wrong. hannity either comes up with an excuse or changes the subject.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
i agree with this
hannity has gotten redic in the last few years
6 or so years ago hannity was actually pretty good
but man talk about a lot of change lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
really?
why do you think thats wrong? i used to listen to his radio show almost ever day (which is much closer to the middle than his tv show) and it was pretty good
i cant even stand hannity anymore but thats something that started w/ hannity/paul a while back and has steeply gone downhill
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
IMO...
O’Reilly is just as far to the right as Hannity. However some, like Cahill probably, feel that he is even worse because he denies that he is that far to the right and just talks about “no spin” and being “fair and balanced”. It’s all a facade. At least Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. admit they are neocons.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
ann coulter i have almost completely decided doesnt believe the majority of what she says lol
but she found a place where she can make a pretty damn nice chunk of change and shes staying there
heh the american dream
that said, o’reilly is not that horrible at all. and i from a pretty clearly conservative side, dont even pay attention to rush/coulter/most of what hannity says or does
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I know this is a little
off topic from this thread but i was lucky enough to see Steve Forbes talk on thursday night. He offered his insight on what caused the credit crisis and what to do to cure it. I did a rough write up of it and will email it to anyone if they provide me their email address.
2010 Rangers = 2008 Rays?
johnleftwichgmailcom
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
vote early
and vote often
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Re: McCain
In response to ab03’s second video in the last thread:
I really feel sorry for McCain. The guy just wants to be President so bad, and I think he’d be a really good one. Provided, of course, that he keeps nuts like that woman at an arm’s length.
his people
are already secretly blaming her for ruining his campaign. he. picked. her. they say she’s going rogue. we got a bogie.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Wha?
I was talking about the anchor in that video ab03 posted, not Palin.
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
“She is a diva. She takes no advice from anyone,” says a McCain adviser
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 35-23 to ULM? Come on. Well, at least we were competitive for once. Baby steps.
he could have ran a different campaign
but chose to appease the base. many points where he could have broken with the republican majority but never did. could have opposed the bailouts (far right), could have picked lieberman (moderate), could have doen both (maverick!). he had his chances. Unfortunately, this was probably his last one.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That doesn't make any sense.
That’s like saying that Sharky could support a Democrat if that democrat was Lieberman. No candidate is going to win an election without appeasing their base, unless the opponent is such a bogeyman of the base that they’ll go out to vote anyway.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i don't know what you mean by the Sharky comment
I think the base would have been fine with the lieberman pick once they saw how well he was doing with independents.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
No, they wouldn't have.
McCain, as it is, is not very compelling to the base.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
the base is pissed because they aren't winning
winning is all that matters
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Oct 26, 2008 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, it isn't.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
well
it’s because of people like you that mccain isn’t going to win
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
wow
winning isnt everything, if this was the case then obama would have picked clinton 99/100 times
and there is ZERO chance that mccain would have won had he picked lieberman. ZERO. obama would have won in a landslide
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
are you kidding me
the base would be “ok” with the lieberman pick?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
No candidate is going to win an election without appeasing their base
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
As the Republican base shrinks
to Evangelicals, eventually the middle may be worth more than the base.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
right and this may be true in future elections
but do you honestly think there was any way mccain won this election without the support of the “base”?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I think all McCain had to do to get the base out
was to have a lot of unaligned to the campaign folks whisper “Black Muslim Terrorist Socialist” over and over. I think you absolutely could have taken it for granted that the base was going to turn out to vote against Obama.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
see i dont think that mccain could have won by people voting “against” obama as opposed to “for mccain” had he taken lieberman. to me, the difference is that people will either for sure go out if they are voting FOR someone as opposed to maybe going oout if they are voting against the other guy…
now do i think palin was a brillant choice? no. but did she give him a better chance to win than leiberman, ridge, etc. to me she was probably the 2nd best choice in hindsight, but that said mccain had some really bad options, as opposed to obama who had a TON of pretty damn good choices (tim kane (new face), biden (experienced), hillary (FTW)) no matter which direction he decided to go
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
x
McCain’s entire campaign is based on people voting against Obama. I agree with Cahill that there is enough “fear” among the base to get them to the polls. The base has never liked McCain and never will. But they will absolutely vote against a black Muslim socialist with terrorist ties.
I don’t think that Leiberman would have excited anyone either. But I think he could have gone for a more centrist running mate and had a better shot at a lot of independents.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm of the belief
that a significant portion of the electorate votes against candidates, and not for them. I think scaring the base enough by a guy who is portrayed as hitting all their hot buttons, especially Black Muslim, was enough to get them out.
The Rep Base has shrunk enough though where it isn’t enough to win. I think that’s the deal with the devil they made with the Christian Right.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
yup
and i’m pretty sure the base wouldn’t have cared one bit about lieberman when it came down to voting against a suspected muslim.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
you act like republicans/the base is a bunch of idiots
…got news for you: they arent.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
because supporting lieberman is idiotic?
i’m pretty sure the base would rather have any republican as president, even if he turned otu to be a moderate one, than Obama. It’s the VP. He doesn’t do squat anyway.
The base is not a bunch of idiots. Hence, when the poll numbers would show that they would win if the base turned out, the base would turn out.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
My inbox full of
“Obama is a Muslim Terrorist” emails begs to differ.
The reason they are so widespread is because a big enough percentage of the Fundie Christian base are idiots, and it works.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
and it seems to me
that more and more people are going towards the middle, “in between” parties, whatever you may call it
and this may be something that changes for future elections (VERY soon after 08)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
McCain
Good man, bad campaign. I was going to vote for him in 2000 until the Rove machine stomped on him. I still think he’d make a good president, or at least a much better one than we’ve had the last 8 years.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 25, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Concur...
I just think he is older and out of touch with things now.
I really doubt there are many people out there, regardless of party or who they vote for, that don’t respect McCain. He’s run a terrible campaign though, that’s for sure.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
out of touch with things now
i hate reading this everywhere…what does this even mean? has he been playing checkers for the last 20 years…no
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
No, it means
he’s been living in a bubble so long he doesn’t really have any idea what most people’s lives are like on a day to day basis. Obama does, as does Palin. The longer you’ve been a national politician the longer it’s been since you’ve gone grocery shopping, waited in car pool with your kids, got your own dry cleaning…
… or been a community organizer where you’re working hand in hand with people who struggle to have enough to eat on a daily basis. McCain is out of touch, as are most politicians who have had a cadre of personal assistants for 20 years.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
does this include biden?
or is he not “out of touch” because he lives in DE and rides the train into DC?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Biden started out very much
working class. He’s been in Washington long enough that he may be a bit out of touch compared with Obama and Palin who both have more recent humble roots.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Yeah...
Hyde Park is pretty humble.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Richest Senators
1. Kerry
2. Kohl
12. McCain
100. Biden
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You should read the crime blotters that U of C puts out
he lives in what looks to be a really nice house but there are much better (safer) places in the Chicago area.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
He's still not..
an “average” guy.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
just referring to your Hyde Park comment
it’s not really Highland Park, TX.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
He grew up pretty humbly
and he spent three years working as a community organizer in a fairly rough area of Chicago. I really don’t see how you can argue Obama has no idea what it’s like to struggle or be middle class. Of course he’s not average now.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Question
Can someone explain to me Obama’s health plan??? I’ve been hearing that its going to screw me (a future doctor) over and is gonna end up costing me alot of potential money in the future, but no one’s explained to me why that would happen yet.
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
boogeymen
i think they fear that patience using the public healthplan would not be able to choose their own doctor. or something. but many private health plans aren’t supported by all doctors
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Looking at the Obama website...
I worry about…
1. “Prevent insurers from overcharging doctors for their malpractice insurance and invest in proven strategies to reduce preventable medical errors.” That’s troubling, for a number of reasons. The cost of insuring medical practitioners is higher in some places than others… how is the government going to go about ascertaining what premiums constitute “overcharging” and what don’t?
That’s something alarming. I’ll go through the plan at greater depth later, and talk about my other issues with it.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
x
The cost of insuring medical practitioners is higher in some places than others… how is the government going to go about ascertaining what premiums constitute "overcharging" and what don’t?
Probably the same way the departments of insurance of the various states decide whether rates being offered for different types of insurance are overcharging.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Why wouldn't the state...
departments of insurance do it then? Or, more specifically, why aren’t they doing it now?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Beats me
My guess is that that is simply fluff. You aren’t going to significantly reduce health care costs by evening out malpractice premiums.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
One of the other points...
on the plan is to reduce prescription costs by buying the drugs overseas. That’s ridiculous. Probably something that would be more meaningful is to incentivize generic usage, and to stop drug companies from releasing a time-release version of the drug to circumvent generic prescriptions.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
it would help
if we got rid of most of the lawyers and started fining plaintiffs for frivolous lawsuits.
of course that would take away most of the democrats donation source.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
That's incorrect
Most of the money the Dems get doesn’t come from trial lawyers.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
that's not
what local republican ads would have me believe. those ads say that dems are baby killers, too liberal and love trial lawyers
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Of course, to most right wing types ...
every lawsuit filed is “frivolous” … especially those that get huge jury verdicts.
Frivolous cases are those with no merit at all under the law. State and federal laws are already in place to punish those types of filings. And, at least in Texas, doctors enjoy a ridiculous amount of protection by both the legislature and the courts. And if you are fortunate enough to get past all of those land mines, juries are extremely reluctant to hold doctors accountable.
The global response to the economic crisis
It’s heartening to see the willingness of Bush and other world leaders (as if they have a choice) coming together with relatively open minds. When I think about a Democratic congress and an Obama administration possibly overreaching, this makes me less worried.
The interconnectedness of the international banking system means that whatever new regulations come out of this will be worked out with European and Asian leaders. Though some isolationist alarmists will be looking for black helicopters and claiming it’s Obama’s secret plan for one world government, this will be a good check for any populist over-regulating. People are going to be in a tar and feathering mood for a long while, but overreacting with a kitchen sink approach will do more harm than good in the long run.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I'm starting to think...
that the race is actually tighter than the conventional wisdom states. I think we’re actually going to be surprised by how close the race is when the returns come in.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i'm sure
it won’t be an 8 point win.
but because of the electoral vote, you could win by 1% but dominate the electoral vote. i would guess that mccain can get at least 240 electoral votes
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Why
What evidence is there to support that?
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Popular vote may be close,
say 4-6 points instead of 8, but I’d still expect to see Obama get about 340 electoral college votes. McCain is behind in a lot of states he shouldn’t be, and he can’t make up ground in all of them. He just doesn’t have the resources or time.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I'd expect to see far less than a 4-6 point spread.
I’d also expect far less than 340 electoral votes for Obama.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Again
Why are you “expecting” that? Expectation usually follows facts.
by brettgardner on Oct 25, 2008 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I would not expect that at all
given the infighting that’s going on in the GOP right now. There’s nearly open rebellion in some quarters.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Meh...
Open rebellion =\= votes for Obama, necessarily.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Right, but it hardly equates
a surge in support for McCain, either.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Nate Silver has Obama...
…at 350 EVs right now, and a 6 percent edge in the popular vote.
Of the states he has going to Obama right now, which do you think McCain ends up with?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know.
As I said, I think the cw (and the polls) are overstating Obama’s lead at this point. Specifically, I’m not ready to point at anything.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Well
If your position is that Obama will get far less than 340 EVs, then you should be able to give some examples of states that the models have going to Obama that you don’t think he’ll get.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I am able.
I choose not to.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Why?
And what leads you to believe that all the polls and current projections are inaccurate?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Gut feeling.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Ah
So you are the Ron Washington of political prognostication.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
No.
I’m the Obi Wan Kenobi of political prognostication.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
No
You are the Jar Jar Binks of political prognostication.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
You are the...
Poochie MacMahon of political prognostication.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
You are the...
…Steal Home/nice hands of political prognostication.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 25, 2008 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You two remind me
of my favorite Rankin-Bass Christmas special:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yon2YuXssvo
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
This is what he used to do to me...
when we lived together in Austin, too.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
win.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Nate Silver
Reflecting on my personal biases, I wonder if I’d be anywhere nearly as interested in his site if I wasn’t a baseball fan. I think he’s as good as any poll compiler out there, but I wonder how I’d feel about him if I didn’t now anything about baseball or sabermetrics.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
there aren't that many poll compilers
and there’s nobody doing what he does
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Too true.
One of my friends visited electoral-vote.com, but monitors fivethirtyeight now since I showed it to him. Electoral-vote.com swings wildly from one day to the next sometimes.
I read Nate’s stuff for a while before I realized he was a BP contributor. His weighting algorithm is smart stuff.
Red states
I am thinking that’s what’s in store for the red states. Still a McCain win but much tighter than they expect. Just a gut feeling.
I think you are wrong
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
More on the donation issue...
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/print_friendly.php?ID=no_20081024_9865
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Heh.
I wonder if you’d be scouring for links if Republicans controlled Congress.
Your silly little strategy also raises another interesting question: how do you vote in Congressional elections?
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
OBAMA 08
i cant vote yet so to help the cause i joined the call team, last week i made about 30 calls to new mexico, i got some entertaining responses
touchdown... touchdown... and st.micheals takes the lead.
entertaining responses
…do share!
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
i love the blue hairs...
…i talked to long time elderly client of mine the other day and she was complaining cause she couldn’t “turn on the TV without seeing that obama on there…” she asked who i was voting for, and of course i gave her the company line “i haven’t decided yet”… she went off… “well, how can you of not decided?!… don’t you have questions about him? don’t you?” i said questions about him how, what questions?… she says “questions about him?… there are a lot fo qualified black people who have doctorates and qualifications? don’t you have questions about him? this is simple. this comes down to a question of good or evil…” i looked at her, kind of like how you look at a car as it hits ice and starts slowly sliding out of control on path to hit something unimportant… she said “did you ever study history? do you know who HITLER was?”… yeah, i had an 85 year old woman in my office comparing obama to HITLER!… seriously, if anyone wondered if all the “he pals around with terrorists” and “hussein obama” things were going to have real effects… i got first hand proof they’ve had an effect… and if things hold up as they are for the next 10 days, i’m afraid of what that rift is going to do long term… for all his love of country, mccain has let his handlers put him all in on this one… cause if obama wins and he has to do the “we all need to unite as one country to fix the problems that lay ahead of us” speech, i could see the aarp handing out his personal address(s) so the old folks could personally visit him to complain about him letting obama win…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
I don't think
Racists need much of an excuse to hate black people.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I also think
racism is declining on a generation to generation level, but 85 is an age where they still remember, and probably accepted and approved of, “colored only” water fountains.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Yep
and people that refer vaguely to the civil war and slavery as part of their “heritage”, or foment against “hyphenated Americans” as if they weren’t descended from immigrants.
Today’s kids are growing up with a totally different demographic in their schools, all ethnicities from all over the world. And my daughter is only one of several mixed race toddlers in her class. It’s inevitable that racism will keep declining in this country. I’m not worried, though. I’m sure the GOP will find a new bogeyman. The Nixon -Rove line of win by division politics is ending. New divisions will be found and exploited, to loosely paraphrase the King is dead, long live the King.
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i don't think...
…that she’s as much a racist/bigot as she is convinced by people she believes in that he shouldn’t be trusted… hence the repeated line “don’t you have questions about him?”… which has been the GOPs line all along… “who is barack obama?”… the problem is, its a rhetorical questions that doesn’t focus on any one thing, and it since most of the masses who follow that logic won’t listen to him its a self fulfilling prophecy where they know nothing about him and are happy about it… but the hitler thing was wild… limbaugh wild…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Oct 26, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Believe it or not...
I read an article on Catholic.org doing this precise thing.
I think that these people allow themselves to be overtaken by fear and don’t want to educate themselves. Six months ago at work, I heard someone say that Obama was a Muslim (another co-worker corrected him). Recently, I had a former co-worker send out a mass e-mail that Obama wasn’t a US citizen (soon thereafter, he checked Snopes and found that it wasn’t true).
Ultimately, I think you’re both right — she’s probably a little racist given her upbringing and age, and worried because she doesn’t feel like she knows him.
I also meant to say...
another disgusting thing in that article is his tacit comparison of Lenin, Marx, and Engels to Hitler.
Voted yesterday
In Arlington about 2 o’clock. Took me about 5 minutes, it was great. They said they were getting about 1,000 a day at that location , but yesterday they were closer to 2,000.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
let me just say
that in the end i think as many people that vote against obama because he is black evens out compared to how many people vote for obama because he is black
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
Do you have
Anything to corroborate that?
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
just what i think…hence the i think in the statement. and no, polls may not show it now, but i really think its a closer race than polls say it is at the end of the day.
do i think mccain wins? not unless something huge happens…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
Why would you think something you have no support for? Doesn’t make much sense.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
what do you think?
that in the end more people vote AGAINST obama because hes black?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I do...
there are a lot more white people in the country than black and I think you are underestimating the degree of racism that still exists in society. That’s just my opinion though. Perhaps we have come farther than I think we have, it would be nice if I was wrong.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
If that's true
then I think this election is going to be a lot closer than the polls indicate.
I agree with KOKing that the people who are voting completely based on race will cancel each other out. Unless the old theory that blacks don’t vote is correct — and I don’t think that’s true today.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
people who are voting completely based on race will cancel each other out
worded much better than the way i said it earlier
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't
Have an opinion one way or the other.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
then how/why do you call me out for my opinion when you dont even have one?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmm?
Because I have nothing to make an opinion on. Neither do you, but that didn’t stop you from just wildly speculating. I prefer not to do that.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
again
i pretty clearly stated that “I THINK” … before i said it
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
But you wouldn’t do that in baseball.
Would you say “I think David Murphy is the best player in the league”?
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
forget it
we shall see who is right after the election
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I am more likely to vote for Obama...
…because he is black.
I’ve said for years that, if given the choice between two candidates for President I feel are relatively close, I would pick the black candidate over the white candidate, because I feel it would be good for our country to break through that barrier and finally have a black president.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Obama
When asked to explain my vote for Obama, I’ve told people, half-jokingly:
“White people have been fucking up this country for 200-plus years, so why not give the black guy a chance?”
As for all the “he’s an Arab, a terrorist, a Communist, etc.” talk that’s coming from people, I just wish they’d all say what they’re really thinking- “I’m not voting for that N-word.”
It wouldn’t be any better, but at least it would be more honest…
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
"I’m not voting for that N-word."
What about the folks who don’t like his Socialist tax plan, extreme views on abortion, or his lack of experience? Or does everyone not voting for him just hate black people?
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Uhhh
You took that a bit out of context buddy. You completely ignored the bit about people who aren’t voting for him because they think he’s an “arab, terrorist, a communist,etc.” You gave logical right-wing views about why people wouldn’t vote for him. He was talking abou the illogical views about why people wouldn’t vote for him or would vote against him.
But we all know what he was really saying
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Obama
hiafex had it right- I was only referring to the people who aren’t voting for him because “he’s an Arab, terrorist, communist, etc.” If they aren’t racist, they’re at best stuck in a 1950’s/60’s mentality that still thinks of the world in terms of “good Americans vs. them dirty hippies and their Commie allies,” which still demonstrates a worldview that’s completely out of touch with reality.
I wasn’t implying that everyone opposed to Obama is racist. I have friends and family who are voting for McCain, and I don’t think it’s a race issue for any of them.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
Its good to know
that a top marginal rate of 39% is galloping socialism.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
It makes a better argument than
Hey, we’re plutocrats and we want to be richer!
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I'm not rich
Not even remotely close to it and probably never will be. I just don’t think that giving money to people who already don’t pay income taxes is a good idea.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions
It's much sounder policy
to keep tax rates so low that you run up a half a trillion more in debt every year so you can pay 400 or so Billion a year in interest.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Top mariginal rate 39% + state and local taxes...
= tax burden over 50%. That’s not good.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
And with deductions and exemptions
they probably won’t pay 30%
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Exactly
Ben, how many people really pay that much? The key word there is marginal. I can fully understand why someone making over $250,000 would hate Obama. I just don’t understand why they’d think that the other 95% should feel sorry for them.
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Because...
I believe in personal freedom and coercive taxes for being successful.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I don't think taxes should be raised, but
I definitely do not think they should be lowered, either. I’d probably disagree with you about the level at which taxes become “coercive”.
Right now is not the time to be talking broad tax cuts, these campaigns are both laughable on that matter.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Taxing someone based on their success...
is antithetical to freedom, in my mind.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
As is...
cutting taxes for them based on their success.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
With no deductions?
Whether you earn $10,000 or $1,000,000 in a given year, you should pay the same percentage of your income?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a policy wonk...
but I would prefer it in theory over a super-progressive model.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Heh.
When asked the absolute and only next question in the flat tax debate, the genius shrugs it off with “I’m not a policy wonk.”
That’s a mighty theory you have there.
by brettgardner on Oct 27, 2008 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions
i don't know the mechanics of implementing a flat tax
and don’t wnat to look it up right now.
what would the initial proposed rate be? 20%? Would it be be a tax increase for a segment of the population? Is the elimination of the IRS supposed to account for all revenue decreases?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
A flat tax...
…that generates enough in revenue to match what is currently garnered in tax revenues would result in an increase for lower income folks and a decrease in the rate for higher income folks.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions
gotcha
i probably should be more adamantly against flat tax (seeing as how I’m a liberal and all) but I have to read more about it.
but I don’t see how you can sell a tax increase to the poor and a tax decrease to the rich. I’m guessing you would have to do this in times of economic prosperity and do a tax decrease for all, and just take the hit initially.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That supply side , voodoo economocis stuff has not worked
The rich got richer, the middle class have seen their incomes drop, and the poor are still poor. Income disparity rose, the budget deficit rose, is this what they meant by “a rising tide lifts all boats”?
We’ve had nearly 3 decades of supply side stuff, and it has not delivered on any of its promises except greater income for the wealthy. It’s time for a new approach.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
The middle class haven't seen their incomes drop.
If you have numbers to back that up, I’d love to see it. Wage disparity has increased, but that doesn’t mean the middle class is earning less.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Ok, here.
Despite two periods of recession in the past decade, U.S. worker productivity still rose 18% in the 2000s – about 2.5% per year, according to author Jared Bernstein, a widely followed economist from the liberal-leaning Economic Policy Institute.
But inflation-adjusted income for the American middle-class family actually fell during the same period. The median real income for working-age middle-income families in the United States dropped $2,000 between 2000 and 2007, from about $58,500 to $56,500, the U.S. Census Bureau reported Tuesday.
And, to boot, when some say Americans are living above their means and that’s why their saving less, I say, baloney. Health care and education costs have increased, and lately food and energy. How are Americans supposed to save? These things are not discretionary.
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But you're talking about a period of thirty years...
not a period of 7 years where there were two recessions.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Well how come
only middle class incomes dropped? And two recessions? Those figures would include the recession around 2001-02 and the subsequent recovery, but not the recent troubles.
As for the thirty years, middle class incomes did rise during the Reagan years, but not as fast as wealthy income levels did. And Reagan’s plan was supposed to reduce the deficit. Oops.
You can’t just keep dropping taxes on the rich to a flat tax point. At some point it harms the economy, the deficit, income disparity, etc. There must be a happy medium that is progressive, but not to a punitive point. Flat tax sounds nice and simple, but it causes as many problems as it solves.
I was interested in the Fair Tax stuff, though I’m not sure it would have worked. But at least is was a new idea, worth exploring.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Middle class rising incomes...
who cares if it’s rising as fast as the wealthy incomes?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Here's another
Adjusted for inflation, median household income dropped by $1,175 between 2000 and 2007, said Elizabeth Warren, professor at Harvard Law School, in written testimony before the Joint Economic Committee.
http://mutualfundsmag.us/2008/07/23/news/economy/middle_class/index.htm?postversion=2008072313
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you explain the fact that
When I was a wee boy, my father was able to support a family of four comfortably? Owned two cars and a house. How many families are able to do anything with a single income? More are dual income and most families have a LOT of debt.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:03 AM CDT up reply actions
That sounds...
like a lot of families are making poor spending decisions. Whose fault is that?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
You're not listening
You only listened to the debt part. When I was a little kid my dad didn’t make a great deal of money but was able to support a wife, two children, and buy a house and two cars without going into debt. He made about $55k in 2008 USD.
Try doing the same thing today.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Many people do.
Those that can’t are likely making some poor decisions.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Impossible
$55k a year isn’t nearly enough. Health insurance on three dependents is probably the biggest difference between now and then. Is it a poor decision to insure your family?
Even if you lived on the cheap:
Two car payments (good used cars): $400 per month.
House payment (modest place like the house I grew up in): $1400 per month.
Groceries: $450 a month?
Utilities: average at least $500 a month with a couple cell phones
Then there’s car insurance, dependent health coverage, gasoline, student loans, and a million other smaller things you can’t cut out of your budget.
Do you live in a universe with a different math?
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep...
sounds like some pretty poor financial and family planning, to me.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Laughable
For a guy as smart as you are, you sure miss the point a lot. Perhaps it’s just convenient.
My point is that my Dad was able to do all of that back in the mid 1970’s. You cannot do it today without two incomes. If you only make $55k per year in 2008, no you don’t have any business having 2 children, two cars, and a stay-at-home mother. But there was a time when you could do just that AND have money left over. When I was very little, we were NOT poor. Not rich, but not poor. One salary.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
And yet...
despite your violin-accompanied claims, there are people who raise kids on one income, at and less than $55k per year. Wow, how do they do it?
It’s a fucking mystery.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
It is indeed a fucking mystery
Because I don’t see how you can own a house and two cars and support/insure four people on that amount of money. Maybe in Des Moines or some rural ass place with an extremely low cost of living, but not in any major metro area.
Seriously, do the math. You’re not married and you don’t have kids. I don’t think you realize how expensive it would be to feed and insure three people who aren’t making money.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I think
you need taxes if you have spending, and neither party has shown they can balance the budget without a marginally higher tax rate.
I just have never seen a plan on the table to balance the budget with our current levels of taxation.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
extreme views on abortion
like “mother’s health” – with air quotes?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Well...
There are a lot of people who think someone who would allow any abortion is extreme. It may not be but it’s certainly a valid reason for someone not to vote for him.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
i see what you were saying
fair enough
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I'm glad
I was worried my response was worded to awkwardly.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
anyway
to the actual point, i think plenty of people aren’t going to vote for obama for very valid reasons – like a left of center economic policy that they don’t think is right for the times.
But I think at least some of this muslim/ayers/wright talk is a veil for a general racism. The question is, if Obama didn’t have any ayers/wright/muslim ties, would those people (people who buy into the charges) accept him or would they find something else to complain about.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Racism...
of course it’s racism. It’s ALL racism.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
well wright and ayers isn't racism
but i guess the muslim thing is racism as well.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
They would something else
Some just because he’s black but a lot more just because he has a D next to his name.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
All of those could be debated
And I think you calling his tax plans socialist is ridiculous. Isn’t taking from the rich and giving to the poor some form of a Christian ideal? Didn’t Jesus preach this? I’m not too caught up on biblical teachings but I’m pretty sure he condemned the wealthy. Was Jesus a communist?
You are asking the wrong person about Jesus.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Oct 26, 2008 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Since I'm not an expert on Christian teachings
I’ll just post some quotes from http://www.gospel-mysteries.net/teachings-jesus.html
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”
Jesus also warned against the accumulation of wealth on several other occasions. In Matthew 6:19 he says “do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth”, and a few verses later, in Matthew 6:24, he says “You cannot serve both God and Money”. in Luke 6:24 he says “woe to you who are rich.” Jesus disapproved of wealth because he thought it was wrong for some people to live in wasteful luxury while others starved.
I’m just saying that spreading the wealth is not solely a Socialist/Communist ideal. Obama’s tax plan suggests taking from those who are wealthy and giving to those who are not so well off as suggested by Jesus. I don’t subscribe to a religion but this seems to clash with Conservative/Reglious right ideals that Socialism is the devil.
My ulta-conservation religious dad
will tell you that its the church’s responsibility to provide for the less fortunate, not the government’s. I’m not condoning, just reporting what at least one Evangelical believes.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
The church doesn't run things anymore
The government does. So… does that mean that it’s the government’s job?
Besides, your father’s argument doesn’t seem to mention anything about the individual’s choice to spread his/her wealth.
To expand
He gives his 10% to the church and the church, in turn, assists within the community. In his world, he doesn’t have a choice of whether to give his 10% to the church — if he doesn’t, then he’s not properly serving God. He doesn’t believe his taxes should pay for welfare programs as the church should handle all welfare programs. A very idealistic approach, for sure.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll also add
that my dad is very old and probably has no idea what his church tithe is actually being used for in today’s religious environment.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Ahhh, okay
I was just trying to understand his mind-set. Makes sense. I guess there’s no way of convincing him that the church is not the most trust-worthy of institutions.
That's right...
the government is!
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
To me
the biggest issue with my dad’s theory isn’t that the church isn’t most-trustworthy, its the thought that everyone is going to give their 10% to the church. It’s not realistic.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say it was.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
And I didn't say you did
Just making a statement.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say that
I’m saying that you leave it up to the person. The government and the church aren’t trust-worthy so why does it matter which one is taking your money? They both say that they’re doing it for the good of those that aren’t as well off as you. My points was that Socialistic ideas were not created by the devil as conservatives seem to think.
Conservatives don't think socialism is created by the devil.
They think that it’s contrary to personal freedom to compel actions by force of government.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Well
There are some who think it was created by the devil.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Conservative ideals clash with those of the religious right
Perhaps the religious right are the base of the wrong party. Or they’re just hypocrites and don’t follow what they preach. Whichever.
I think an Obama presidency
will hurt race relations more than help…somebody had to say it.
This is an extraordinarily weak candidate (why did HRC do so well and why is this still a race?) with very little experience who will have to pander to everybody on the left who helped get him elected.
If I needed a good inter-city tournament put together or some more votes “found” for Mayor Daley, Obama would be my man. Put in charge of the most powerful office in the land….you have to be shitting me.
The next four years will be like those few months after the first OJ trial and racial relations will be worse in November ’12.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Oct 26, 2008 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
This whole post is ridiculous
If he’s such a weak candidate, why hasn’t he folded under pressure? Had any significant issues dug up? Shouldn’t he be losing to McCain if he was really that weak? I want to know why you think he’s a weak candidate Josey.
Your argument doesn’t make any sense. Do you not know how well educated the man is? That’s disgraceful to hear you say that you would only allow him to “find” votes in an election or whatever else you said you would allow him to do.
I hope you didn’t hope to gain credibility with that pointless post.
"Had any significant issues dug up?"
Who’s digging?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Did you expect...
his posts on politics to be any more enlightening than those about baseball?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Hadn't seen any of his posts in a while to be honest with you
Didn’t associate his name with this prior posts.
You're simply not going to like
my posts about Ranger baseball if you’re a mindless cheerleader for JD.
What drives people nuts about me is how my opinions on this organization have been spot-on for several years.
I do believe that Obama will win the election but that it will be much closer than people anticipate. There hasn’t been a Democrat get 50% of the popular vote since 1976 and now we’re supposed to believe that a black uber-liberal is suddenly going to break that streak?
As for a black presidency helping break barriers… 40-46% of this country is going to dislike Obama simply for his politics and it will be very rough. JFK was despised by a huge numbers of people in this country and he was white and actually served in the military. Can you imagine what it is going to be like for Obama?
You are going to have liberals saying that the criticism lobbed at Obama is being amped up simply because he’s black. Right? We have idiots in here who believe the criticism thrown at Ron Washington is so heavy because he’s black when it’s really because of his own incompetency. I do believe Obama is going to have a failed presidency because he hasn’t done anything in his past to make me think he’s going to be a great leader.
If you want to help knock down racial barriers via a black presidency, I think you need that person to be a republican.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
JFK
He had pretty good job approval ratings at the time he was shot, I believe. Gallup had him at something like 60 percent if I remember right. Obviously he was hated in the South and Texas in particular, so if you come from the South your view may be distorted.
Well, I decided to look it up: LINK
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
this isn't still a race
And HRC isn’t exactly a fluff candidate
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Entertaining rumors from the Palin camp
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14929.html
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
“A number of Gov. Palin’s staff have not had her best interests at heart, and they have not had the campaign’s best interests at heart,” the McCain insider fumed, noting that Wallace left an executive job at CBS to join the campaign.
hmmmm
no matter what public perception was, id love to see what someone like rove would have done with a mccain-palin ticket…just because (even if you/me/anyone) disagrees with his actions, hes a fucking brillant guy
probably have the same outcome but still…would have been interesting.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
He's
Fucking brilliant? How do you know?
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
you really want to disagree that rove is a smart guy?
i bet you think dick cheney is an idiot too
notice, i did not say i AGREE with them/their views. but to say you dont think they are pretty brillant is foolish
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
So
You have absolutely no answer. Gotcha.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
why do i think hes smart/brillant is the question, correct?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I asked
He’s fucking brilliant? How do you know?
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
clearly not from personal experience, since i have never met him
that said, do you think obama is smart?
do you think feliz is a great prospect? have you seen him pitch in person?
ditto with holland
what about smoak? have you seen him play in person?
do you think bush is not very smart? have you met him
this is foolish ground to stand on simply because i do not have “personal experience” with the guy doesnt mean i cant think/say hes pretty smart
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You're clearly confused.
Those are all false dichotomies because I can see statistics, which prove at least something. If you have something to prove Rove’s “fucking brilliance”, I’d like to hear it. Don’t divert the question just because you can’t answer it.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
im not diverting the question
i would say that his successes speak for themselves
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
you give no credit to rove?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't know
How much credit to give him. It seems you don’t either.
by brettgardner on Oct 26, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
if you think rove is not very smart
you are like whoever in the other thread said that palin was in the bottom 25% of the people in the country (which they then changed to their private school)
heres a question, why do you think obama is smart?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
and?
bush went to Harvard Business School
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok...
but they had drastically different paths of getting there and the end results weren’t similar either.
Please don’t try and argue that Bush is intelligent again.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
how do you argue that hes NOT intelligent
hes not a complete idiot
now is he JFK? no
but is he someone who is an idiot? no
he is probably average to above average
is he as smart as obama, no. but then again i am of the opinion that obama is pretty smart himself
and dont argue backgrounds as a reason that someone is considered smart/others are not.
if your goign to argue harvard law then argue on what he DID while he was there not how he got there…
anyway the question was more to BG than anything else
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
editor harvard law review
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
do you?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Karl Rove
My thought is that he’s obviously really smart (unlike some people here, I’m pretty much in the camp that most of the people who rise to the top of their fields/parties are really smart) but I’m not convinced he’s a once-in-a-lifetime genius.
While I obviously don’t know for certain, remember that the Karl Rove is an Evil Genius storyline was generated by Democrats after losing both 2000 and 2004. Its
In reality, the Democrats lost in 2000 because Bill Clinton was not a particular popular president and not interested in using his popularity to get Al Gore elected. George Bush was an exciting, fresh, young face promising a “change” from the status quo and who appealed to broad demographics. (The parallels to Obama are eerie, but that is another fight for another day).
In 2004, the Democrats lost because they were stupid and picked an admitted pro-internationalism, anti-war candidate during a time when 9/11 was still relatively fresh on people’s minds. John Kerry was the absolute worst candidate the Dems could have picked then (well, Howard Dean would have been worse, but he never had a shot). Had Joe Lieberman been the nominee then, he’d be President right now (and McCain may probably already be Veep, ironically enough).
But rather than admit that Gore and Kerry were weak candidates and that their campaigns weren’t effective, it was easier to paint Rove as an “evil genius” who was able to cherry pick votes to Bush. And while there was some of that, I think that 2000 and 2004 were as much to do with the state of the Democratic party than anything Rove did.
just in relation to the point about rising to the top of your field
There are so many industries where I feel like you can find people that rose to the top not because they were smart but because they were opportunistic and made the right connections. You don’t agree?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Being opportunistic and making the right connections...
is pretty smart.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
different sort of smart
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I agree that being very successful
is not proof that you are smart. It is just a very good indicator, and barring a lot of personal interaction to make me think otherwise, I find that it is a fairly safe assumption.
But indeed, there are dumb people who are in the right place and right time to move up fast in the world. They’re just in the minority, and I’m generally wary of trying to figure out who are the idiots out there. Often the smartest people are those that veil their intelligence in one way or another.
I believe...
that Rove is very intelligent.
Who else could have got W elected not once but twice?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
i want to see cahills reaction to this story
or someone like black francis (wonder if BF has any stories re: rove?)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Rove
I don’t have anything on him that can’t be read about elsewhere. Some of the early stuff you have to dig for.
Rove is a man who will do absolutely anything to win. Well, I say “absolutely anything” but I’m not aware of bloodshed. Short of that, he really will lie, cheat, and steal with the best/worst of them. Some of it’s bold but pretty simple. Some of it is quite a bit more sophisticated.
I don’t know whether or not he’s brilliant, but “determined”, “calculating”, and even “ruthless” come to mind. Obviously I don’t hold a very high opinion of Rove, and I don’t think I would if I were a Republican, either. Ultimately it’s a Karma thing. Parties and politicians have always sought power, of course, but Rove is all about winning elections and usurping power. While I have little doubt he’s a conservative, he’s not about policy. For most of our history even the most power hungry politicians have had some sort of policy or ideological agenda besides winning. See Huey Long, LBJ, and the 1994 Republicans as examples.
by Black Francis on Oct 26, 2008 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t know whether or not he’s brilliant, but "determined", "calculating", and even "ruthless" come to mind
fair enough
btw BF what did you do here in DC?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
x
I worked for Bill Bradley and Emily’s List.
by Black Francis on Oct 26, 2008 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Rove always takes the path of least resistance
some of his strategies are rather boorish. and what he has asked of mccain hasn’t really worked out (come out with fire, get angry).
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
definitely not
He’s made a lot of enemies in his career and will probably soon run out of friends. Politics isn’t physics, but for every action there’s usually an opposite reaction. He’s taken some things too far when he didn’t really need to. Conservative politics can win on its own merits a lot of times and simply doesn’t need all the tricked up strategy.
I don’t think McCain has fully embraced Rove’s suggestions. If he did this race would be even dirtier and probably a bit closer. And if it worked and he would’ve won he’d be working with an extremely hostile Congress, making it more difficult to govern and more difficult to get re-elected.
I think we’re about to see the end of the Rove era. He’ll continue to consult, of course, but I don’t think he’ll have the kind of impact he has in recent years.
by Black Francis on Oct 26, 2008 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
he absolutely didn't embrace rovian strategies
but i think the few times he did, it seems to have backfired.
part of mccain’s problem is he never really picked between centrist and unabashed neocon (and the tactics that accompany that) and I think that has hurt him the most.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Unabashed neocon...
what do you think neocon means? I ask because a lot of people just seem to assume that it means super right wing.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
to ab03:
neocon=anyone who is a not close to the middle
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
you contribute very little
i just want to make sure you are aware of this. less talking, more listening
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
But what do you think a neocon is?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i am interested to hear his response
it seems that people these days like to throw around the term neo-con for anyone they disagree with or who has more extreme views than they do
this happens with people both in and out of the rpublican party
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions
You mean like...
republicans do with the term “liberal”?
Imo if you still support the war in Iraq you’re a neocon.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
my response?
you’re joking right?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
i don't know what super right wing means to you
neo-conservativism to me means aligning yourself with traditionally Republican party morals (which doubles as Christian Conservative morals), promoting free market economies with limited government regulation and intervention, and having a strong proactive international foreign policy.
I guess technically he is running as a neocon on almost every issue – but the bailout is a big one. opposition to the bailout would have been pretty clutch
the flip side would be to pick a pro choice VP candidate
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Neo Cons are folks
who are bummed out about the fall of commies, and are looking for a new group of folks to be perpetually at war against so we can build up our military industrial complex.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
That's the crux of the issue right there...
I don’t think neo-con has any meaning in reference to domestic politics (see “which doubles as Christian Conservative morals” above).
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i think you are wrong
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw.asp?pg=2
From Kristol himself:
The upshot is a quite unexpected alliance between neocons, who include a fair proportion of secular intellectuals, and religious traditionalists. They are united on issues concerning the quality of education, the relations of church and state, the regulation of pornography, and the like, all of which they regard as proper candidates for the government’s attention. And since the Republican party now has a substantial base among the religious, this gives neocons a certain influence and even power. Because religious conservatism is so feeble in Europe, the neoconservative potential there is correspondingly weak.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I don't think...
there’s a defined domestic “neoconservative” policy. There is a defined “neoconservative” foreign policy.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
and yet
Irving Kristol, father of neoconservatism, disagrees with you.
either way, it’s semantics. substitute “necon” with “neocn” with evangelical christian domestic values"
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
But...
evangelical Christians are not really happy about McCain’s domestic policies. Thus, he can’t really be a neo-con (by your definition) or evangelical christian domestically, can he?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
so you reject Kristol's definition?
you’re being a bit obtuse here. I can understand you thinking there’s no unified neocon domestic policy but someone did try to define it (someone important) and so you should at least acknowledge that it exists.
now, i don’t know what domestic policies they aren’t happy about, but that doesn’t really do anything for my definititon of what a neocon is or my original point that mccain didn’t do enough to run as an unabashed neocon. The point just becomes, he should have been more in line with evangelicals and should have opposed the bailout.
and I don’t know what you mean by domestic policies. I Think the only ones that neocons care about are social issues like abortion, pornography, etc.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
The defining quality of neoconservatism...
…is a proactive, interventionalist foreign policy that believes in using the force of the U.S. to implement democracy as a means of increasing world stability.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
and so you to are denying that there is a domestic element to it
even though Kristol defined it as such?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I'm saying that neo-conservatism...
…as an ideology within conservatism, is defined by its interventionalist foreign policy.
Kristol’s point is that neo-conservatives generally are also ideologically aligned with the theo-cons, rather than the libertarian conservatives.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
that is absolutely not what he was saying
go read the whole article. he’s saying it is a tenet of neoconservativism – not that it is happenstance. Proof – a neocon, by defintion not by correlative effects, would not be in favor of pro choice laws.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Reading it...
I don’t see that he’s saying it’s a tenet of neoconservatism.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
geez
The steady decline in our [neoconservative] democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives—though not with those libertarian conservatives who are conservative in economics but unmindful of the culture.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That's not a tenet...
of neoconservative. That seems to me to be talking about a tendency, not some defining aspect or crucial aspect of the philosophy. Are you denying that the central factor of neoconservatism is foreign policy?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
well central factor seems strong
But yeah, neoconservativism is mostly associated with foreign policy ideals. I get that.
However, my using it to define a certain set of domestic ideals hardly seems out of line. especially since I feel like if you went up to Kristol and said “I want to bomb Iraq but I could care less about abortion,” he would say you’re not a neoconservative as I’ve defined it.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That doesn't really make sense.
There are feminist democrats, whose goals are aligned with pro-union democrats, but pro-union goals aren’t necessarily the defining characteristics of feminist democrats.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
exactly
which is why i’m saying domestic issues are more central to neoconservativism than union goals are to feminist democrats. Do you disagree that Kristol wouldn’t consider you (with the ideals I described) as a neocon?
what the fuck is so hard about this. Kristol says X is part of neoconservatism. I define X to be part of neoconservatism. Y is generally regarded as the main tenet of neoconservativism but that doesn’t mean that X is not as well. X also happens to be what, in part, Evangelicals believe.
This is stupid. And my point was completely extraneous of the definition of neoconservatism in the first place. And you’re point isn’t even correct that “crux of the issue” was an incorrect definition.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Foreign policy...
is where neoconservatism is defined. Domestic policy is secondary.
I really don’t see why you’re so worked up about this.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i completely agree with what you have said
and my worked up is you were being really pig headed. admit when you’re wrong.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I don't think I'm wrong.
Neoconservatism principally involves foreign policy.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Which is funny
because a lot of folks in that camp also believe in the “marketplace of ideas”. Which if you truly believe Democracy and the Free Market are the best models of societies, you don’t have to impose them on other nations at the point of the gun.
You would invest in satellites that pepper news and culture and programming, and only fight wars against people who cross borders. You don’t need to be proactive in forcing democracy on people. Democracy will eventually win out in the marketplace of ideas.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Neo-cons and Theo-cons alike
would benefit from realizing that their beliefs are best spread when leading by example rather than by forcing others to imitate you.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Politcal geniuses like Rove have a shelf life
Sometimes a genius is only a genius because he was at the right place at the right time. Rove’s strategies, in my opinion, only work at a specific point in time and this wasn’t that time.
I think a guy like Carville is good in a variety of situations. Rove is a one-trick pony.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe
I used to have mad respect for Dick Morris (still do maybe). But he seems to be way off this election cycle and he was filling my inbox with Ayers emails.
Carville isn’t immune to criticism, he’s been kind of off this election cycle as well.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Not so sure about Rove...
…jeez he only had to beat liberal pukes.
Loved seeing Kerry in the spandex.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Oct 26, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Fucking Brilliant
in the same way Goebbels was. He also learned that the Big Lie still works today.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
so do think rove is pretty damn smart?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure he is
smart enough to know that if you repeat lies enough to the American people, they will eat it up with a spoon. Especially if you repeat lies that Americans want to believe.
I still don’t think Rove could have saved the Republicans this go round.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
maybe he could (i doubt it…but who knows) but one way or another i think it would be interesting to see how he would have run the race…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Demonize his opponent
and run a campaign of fear. It appears they are trying that strategy.
It doesn’t have as much traction though when you have had 8 years in power, and have an unpopular and unnecessary war, 10 Trillion in Debt, and a meltdown of the Financial system. At that point, change trumps any fear you can raise about the Dems.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i think its funny they both talk about "change"
when no matter what policies either of them have they are somewhat married to the current policies for some amount of time
ie, obama isnt going to pull everyone out of iraq Feb 1 nor if russia invaded ukraine Feb 1 would mccain invade russia
yes, change is going to come…but is it something thats coming ASAP, not immediately
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
how smart can he be if he’s just asking for the same strategy 8 years later? one trick pony.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
but that means hes an idiot for being the one-trick pony in the beginning?
def. not
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
he's just not all that brilliant
if he cant’ adapt his strategy. more smacks of luck than brilliance.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Einstein
He spent the last 30 years of his life trying to find a grand unified theory (and failing) while knocking quantum theory (which ended up being right).
Nikola Tesla did incredible things in the early days of electricity, then went off into quackery.
Just because someone is great in a certain set of circumstances, but can’t sustain or repeat that greatness, doesn’t mean that they are lucky instead of brilliant.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I learned all about Nikola Tesla...
in The Prestige. Did you know he created an electrical machine that could duplicate things? Strange but true.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
this is silly
rove didn’t come up with some timeless theory.
He had one strategy that he used to death. We all thought it was brilliant when he was winning elections but it turns out that the strategy was successful in a limited circumstance.
einstein’s relativity and photoelectric effect theories can stand on their own. Rove’s slash and burn methods can’t.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
The Special Theory of Relativity
It is useful only under a limited circumstance (and, for that matter, a limited circumstance that doesn’t occur in nature).
Does that make it any less brilliant?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions
this is such a stupid analogy
stop using it.
coming up with the brilliant idea that you’ll win elections by starting whisper campaigns that your opponent fathered illegitimate black children is not genius. To suggest to a candidate that they should keep running a negative campaign when every piece of polling says otherwise is not genius.
if rove had come out and said, in times of public apathy, running towards your base and going negative on your opponent is a good thing – then fine. that would have merit. He didn’t do that. He basically said, you should always run negative campaigns and run towards your base. Einstein defined the parameters of his discovery. If Einstein hadn’t, then it would have been less genius. But also, relativity is brilliant because of how he got to it and how inventive it was. making up rumors and sabotaging campaigns isn’t that at all.
this is a homer. he picked moe and he got lucky. he keeps picking moe and it’s obvious that he doesn’t know a thing about political consulting.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
The fact that someone creates a strategy..
…that works in a certain set of circumstances, but can’t be adapted (or the creator isn’t capable of adapting it to) a different set of circumstances doesn’t mean that that person is lucky, rather than brilliant.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm a batter
I decide that I’m going to bunt towards the left side of the mound against a left handed pitcher because left handed pitchers fall away from that side and i see the 2nd baseman is playing back
It works. I’m brilliant.
then the next inning I bunt towards the left side of the mound against a right handed pitcher with the second baseman playing close.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
the buting works in a certain set of circumstances
for ex versus a LHP
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
As I said before, I think blaming Palin
is a cop-out and the post-election discussion shouldn’t let McCain’s people get away with it.
Palin wasn’t a great VP candidate, but she wasn’t a disaster. She at least shored up a shaky base, which whiel they may have come out, McCain hasn’t had to worry about since.
McCain’s campaign has been an utter embarassment. Instead of developing a message, they have just thrown stuff against the wall and beat to death whatever stuck. Joe the Plumber stuck, and was good, until he used it so much that it became a punchline of a joke. McCain could have picked a 40 year old Ronald Reagan as VP and it wouldn’t have helped his campaign.
His campaign has been of the same quality as John Kerry’s, Bob Dole’s, and Michael Dukakis’s. Its a joke, and he deserves to lose.
some recent polling
national obama is down about 1.5-2 points. his lead is at about 6 pts from today compared to yesterday.
in Pennsylvania obama’s lead goes up slightly to 13. mccain needs to drop PA and stick that money in NH, FL, OH and NM. for real. maybe some more money and time in NC and WV would help him. his margin is VERY SMALL.
in Wisconsin obama’s lead is down 4-5 pts to 7 pts. but mccain has given up on the state. if the next poll or 2 show the lead shrinking more, it may be worth a try to go back to airing ads.
in West Virginia mccain’s lead is at about 6 pts, down from 9 earlier in the week. no doubt that obama’s ads in OH, PA, and VA are seeping through. mccain shouldn’t have anything to worry about in this state though…unless obama sees another gain. i’m sure tv ads are cheap in charleston and wheeling.
new poll has mccain up 6 in Georgia. that’s right where it should be for him. that was some random poll that had obama up 1 the other day. it’s good that obama spends money there, but don’t bother spending time.
mccain is up 1 in the latest Missouri poll. that state is going crazy in the polls. they keep switching. it truly has been a tossup the last couple weeks. mccain cannot afford to lose those 11 votes. obama can definitely go without but
obama is up 9 in a recent poll of Virginia. it seems to be a lost cause for mccain.
mccain is up 2 in the most recent North Carolina poll. this is big for him if he can get another couple polls to go his way. it had been trending toward obama and it’s a CANNOT lose for mccain.
some random poll in Arizona has mccain up only 4. the poll done before that in late september had him up 7. i had heard in mccain’s last reelection that he’s not very popular, but they vote for him because it’s what they do. i don’t think obama is gonna win this state at all, but he has so much money maybe he should buy ads there. why? because it would force mccain to use his limited funds to buy ads in AZ to protect his home state, he won’t wanna be embarrassed like gore was. he wants to win AZ by more than just a squeaker i’d bet. no way AZ is a tossup state…yet. even if pollsters decided to poll the state more and obama led in 2 or 3 straight polls, it’d have to be by at least 5 pts for me to think he has a chance.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
If I were Obama's mgr.
I wouldn’t really make any strategy changes right now. McCain hasn’t been able to close the gap much if at all. Therefore you put all your resources in states where you have a tenuous lead in an attempt to bolster it. At this point it’s mostly going to be GOTV anyway.
by Black Francis on Oct 26, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
When you play around
with the electoral map on RCP.com it just does’t seem that there’s any way that Obama can lose. McCain would have to overcome.
McCain would have to win all 70 toss ups votes (FL, NC, NV, MO, IN, MT) and overcome 6%+ poll deficits in CO (6.5), OH (6.1) & VA (7.0). All while holding off Obama in WV and GA.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
on yahoo
and i’m guessing this is OLD. no date is given, unless it’s the “last update”. if so then gingrich did this map earlier this afternoon.
they have celeb maps. gingrich has mccain winning with 300 votes.
he gives the following states to mccain:
new hampshire, ohio, virginia, florida, new mexico, colorado, michigan(!!!!), north carolina, nevada, and missouri.
wow. what a joke. i would have given it some credence if he didn’t give away michigan.
my boy joe trippi gives obama 364 votes. giving him all the states he’s ahead in plus missouri.
arianna huffington is more conservative. she has obama winning with 306. she gives away florida, nevada, missouri, and north carolina. that’s all entirely reasonable, in the current times. maybe gingrich is looking ahead
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
well i was checking out yahoo
and apparently obama’s got a 1 point lead now in MO and NC
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
the yahoo polls
are using the real clear average. it’s a good indicator. i was the most recent individual poll.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
how tough is mccain's road to 270?
behold the magic of the yahoo election dashboard
assume that obama holds all the kerry states and gains iowa and virginia.
obama wins with 272 electoral votes.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states and gains florida. obama wins with 279 electoral votes.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states and gains ohio. obama wins with 272 electoral votes.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states BUT new hampshire but wins florida. obama wins with 275 electoral votes.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states BUT wins ohio and new mexico. obama wins with 273 electoral votes.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states BUT new hampshire. assume obama gains Iowa, New Mexico and Colorado. what happens then? a 269-269 ties. what happens then? the election is decided by the house of representatives. dems have the house of course.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states and gains new mexico, nevada and iowa. another 269-269 tie.
let’s try one where obama loses new hampshire but doesn’t win ohio, OR florida.
assume that obama holds all the kerry states but loses new hampshire. assume obama wins virginia, iowa and new mexico. obama wins with 273 electoral votes.
now a scenario where i think it’s possible that mccain could win the electoral college (as of today, that’s in the realm of possiblity)
assume that obama holds all the kerry states but loses new hampshire. mccain loses virginia and new mexico only. mccain wins with 272 electoral votes.
now the scenario that i think would happen if the election were held tomorrow morning (worst case scenario for obama):
obama holds all the kerry states. obama wins NM, Virginia, Iowa, and Colorado. obama wins with 286 electoral votes (same number bush won with in 2004 with his mandate)
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Out fo curiosity
what do you guys make of Obama’s “infomercial” this week? How much of an impact do you think its going to have?
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
it's on fox, cbs and nbc right?
abc is airing pushing daisies? a new episode i bet? that’s definitely not good for that show.
cannot tell. i assume that he will make a case for himself. i would hope (as an obama supporter) that he does not mention john mccain by name. it’s okay to say something like, “my health care plan does this….my opponent wants to tax YOUR plan”
i also heard that oprah offered to have her production company put it together. not sure if they ARE, and i’m not sure what her company does outside of stupid talk shows.
i’m sure that it will be widely watched. again, until we see the content or know what it is we can’t predict. ask again after it airs and we have seen it.
hard to tell until we know what’s in it. hopefully it’s entertaining along with informational.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
I'd program against it
if I were a network. It’s nice not having network competition.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i work at an abc affiliate
and i have no idea if pushing daisies is gonna be new or not. i wonder why obama didn’t buy up their air time too. maybe because it gets lower ratings than all the others? (new adventures of old christine is the top show in that slot and that ungodly knight rider show is 2nd. the WS would outdraw pushing daisies)
in contrast, the debate 2 weeks ago pulled a 9.5 on all the networks averaged. this is higher than regular programming. i’d have to imagine that even with 1 network airing a show that "is not for everyone) and even with it being 1 sided (no mccain) that it will pull at least a 7 at each. many many many will be undecideds.
sorry, a lot of stupid information and useless stuff there. i’d try and fix it up to make sense, but i gotta go. out.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Pushing Daisies
It’s a new episode. I’ll be watching, and taping the Obama special. It’s sad that the show isn’t getting a bigger following- it’s like almost nothing else on TV, it’s intelligent, funny, cute without being sappy, and has a great old-fashioned romance story at its core. Which probably explains all the reasons it’s not beating out crap like Knight Rider…
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
this is what i hear
im interested in watching some of it…wonder if its on hulu…hmmmm
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
If you’ve never checked it out, I highly recommend an older show by Bryan Fuller, Dead Like Me. It, as I fear Pushing Daisies will, had a very short shelf life, and it’s hopes of a new beginning depend on a D-to-DVD film due next year.
But it was brilliant when it aired.
Dead Like Me
I’ve seen the first season and about half of the second. Pretty good show, though I like Pushing Daisies better. I’ll be very sad if it gets cancelled.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
Joe Biden = great VP pcik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM19YOqs7hU
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
x
He was speaking to an Indian, he obviously didn’t mean it as a racial slur.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. 45-17 to Troy. 0-12 is only four games away.
Yeah...
and if he was talking to a Vietnamese woman and starting talking about handjob parlors and hail salons, that wouldn’t have been racist, either.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
So you really think
he was trying to belittle the guy’s race?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
racism would be
you guys arent’ good for anything but handjob parlors and hair salons.
if the comment had been, “you can’t walk into a doctor’s office without finding an indian,” woudl that have been racist?
It’s not even a racial stereotype, which would have been “all you indians are 7-11 and Dunkin Donuts owners”
what is was was a stupid, insensitive comment. racism conversations could stand a little nuance.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Ah...
but not liking Ayers, Wright, et al, is racist. But saying you have to have an Indian accent to go into a Dunkin Donuts isn’t.
Gotcha.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I said specifically that ayers and wright had nothing to do wtih race
seriously, the term racist gets thrown around way too much.
the only application to this election is that if you are nto going to vote for obama strictly because he’s black, and because he’s black you think he shouldnt’ be entitled to be president or he’s too stupid to be president, then you are a racist. that’s it.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/04/reverend_wrights_brainy_theori.html
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't want to be mean
but I really don’t think you understand what’s going on.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
yea i didnt read all of what was said above just saw the race + wright line
my bad
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
yes
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
What the hell does Ayers have to do with racism?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
See above...
“But I think at least some of this muslim/ayers/wright talk is a veil for a general racism. The question is, if Obama didn’t have any ayers/wright/muslim ties, would those people (people who buy into the charges) accept him or would they find something else to complain about.”
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
So he used Ayers in the wrong context
Sue him. Hold it against him forever. Assume that everyone believes that because of one person’s mistake. It’s not helping your argument any.
but
i’m not saying that those statements are inherently racist. I’m saying that some (not all) of the people that cite Ayers might be doing so to mask racism. Hell, even people who cite more legitimate reasons are doing so for other reasons.
It’s cynical speculation but it doesn’t speak to the actual statement being racist.
as it applies to Biden, I don’t think the observation that lots of Indians own Dunkin Donuts and 7-11’s is inherently a racist statement. Nor do I think it speaks to his underlying racist views of Indians.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That's ridiculous.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Yeah...
that’s not good. That’s what Biden does from time to time too. Stick his foot in his mouth.
However I really don’t think that someone who is going to vote for McCain should be talking about great VP picks right now.
You stay all Mavericky Ben.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
VP
I don’t have any real objections to Palin.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Would you if there was a Republican Congress?
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't vote for her...
but I wouldn’t have any problems with her, either.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Meh
I think you just like the debate. I don’t think you really believe some of the things you say.
by robert_d_wilfong on Oct 26, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think she's a bad candidate...
she’s a good politician in a crappy campaign.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Wouldn't a good politician...
know more about politics.
What has she done to show you she’s a good politician.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
she seems to be trying to salvage her image
by going off the McCain message. Not a bad political move for her.
She’s certainly savvy.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
why should i have a prob w/ her
if i share most policy viewpoints
its like saying i shouldnt object to obama because i have contraditory viewpoitns on almost all topics there
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Because she's savvy?
what qualifies her to be VP?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
That is disconcerting
She doesn’t seem like she’s able to understand or offer any solutions to the issues that plague the nation. I don’t see any shape or form of foreign relations experience in her. What do you see in her besides the fact that she’s a Republican?
ok
do you think someone liek ben has any problem with g.w. bush? do you see that much of an advantage that bush has over palin?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I don’t see any shape or form of foreign relations experience in her. What do you see in her besides the fact that she’s aRepublicanDemocrat?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
oops
could easliy be said about obama as well from this side as well
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
You simply cannot compare the two
when it comes to having a grasp of the issues. Now, give her a couple of years (that he’s just had) to bone up on those issues and she becomes much more formidable. She is talented but not ready.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Besides the fact that he has been able to come up with proactive solutions
Been to Harvard Law, been a United States Senator and served on the Committee for foreign relations and the Committee of Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs as well as passed legislation with the aid of the opposite party. You can’t say the same about Palin, I’m sorry.
If...
the President were some kind of despot, I guess I would want the President to be a policy wonk, and military strategist, and have a firm grasp of every conceivable policy issue. But that’s not how it works.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
early on
many ppl i knew who were talking abotu obamas lack of experience one of the points they wre making was how the president, even if he had limited experience, was able to surround himself with expertts in nearly every field.
i guess she would just bring up her whole family from alaska and not listen to anyoen who has any experience either domestically or internationally, right? …come on
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
But the president is
the person people look to in times of trouble for confidence, the leader who has to communicate directly with the rest of the globe…she’s just not ready for that. How many points would the Dow drop if she answers a reporter’s question the way she did last month? Or just refuses to talk to reporters.
She’s just not ready. Give her a few years.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
But the president is
the person people look to in times of trouble for confidence, the leader who has to communicate directly with the rest of the globe…she’s just not ready for that. How many points would the Dow drop if she answers a reporter’s question the way she did last month? Or just refuses to talk to reporters.
She’s just not ready. Give her a few years.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
at least your viewpoint is
She’s just not ready. Give her a few years.
vs the viewpoint of the fact that shes a complete idiot who should have never been picked, has zero positives and added nothing to the mccain run for the president
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
She is a folksy archetype
never going to impress people with being wonky, but with more prep time she’d have enough to say that she’d pass for most people. I don’t think she’s an idiot, but I do think that the president should know MUCH more about what’s going on in the world. So should a governor, and if I were an Alaskan I’d be pretty embarrassed right now. She’s got a lot of work to do, but I think she’ll be a better candidate with more prep.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't personally...
think it’s a big deal.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I really like Ben
for the unique, intelligent, informed, and entertaining person he is. I just hope that he really is unique. One of a kind. No one else like him.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
but we aren't governed by a council of intellectuals either
the cabinet and advisors are really fluid and don’t have enough power to retain control over their domain. there are all sorts of power grabs and conflicting opinions. somebody competent needs to be at the helm to make the right decisions
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
An executive...
is not expected to have intimate knowledge of what is the best decision in each and every case. They are supposed to have judgement.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
judgment comes from
a wink and a smile?
experience and intelligence
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
so obama has one of those
and hes a great candidate?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions
haha
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Indeed.
You’ve neatly encapsulated everything there is to know about Sarah Palin. Wink and a smile. Oh, and a vagina.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
nice response to the argument
dont’ get mad cause you’re wrong
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
What "argument?"
Did you actually make one?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
good judgment is based on intelligence and experience
ass
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Okay.
Well, what you said up there earlier was “judgement comes from a wink and smile,” which is hardly an argument.
As to what you’ve just stated is your argument, my reply is that there isn’t much to indicate to me that Obama is either more intelligent or more experienced than Sarah Palin.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
ok
but you accept the point that intelligence is important. that would seem to contradict the “your neighbor would make a good president” theory
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I'm trying to address this on your terms...
which seems to assume that the intelligence of the President is important. To which I replied that I haven’t seen anything compelling to convince me that Sarah Palin is less intelligent or experienced than Obama.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
alright
i’m not going to have a conversation wtih you about why i think obama is smarter than palin. speeches,educational background, pretty much whenever they both open their mouths i get a good idea of who is smarter. but whatever, you don’t have to agree.
answer the question I’m asking: don’t you think intelligence and experience are important to judgment, making them valuable traits for becoming president?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I think there's a certain...
minimum standard, but I don’t set the bar very high.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
if this is the case
what kind of judgement does obama have?
he only has one of the two
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
he doesn't have one of the two
this aren’t discreet entities. he seems to be really intelligent and he has some experience as a legislator. I think on that foundation he has good judgment – and the way he’s ran his campaign is a good indicator of that (especially the people he’s surrounded himself with).
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
so do you think john mccain has good judgement?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
he has a lot of experience
and i bet he’s a fairly smart guy. but he has not ran his campaign in a way that i trust his judgment.
but even still, I think he’s qualified to be president. i just won’t vote for him because i don’t agree with him. judgment is a prerequisite for being president
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I'm not voting for McCain for his judgement.
I’m voting for divided government.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
clearly
yet you have so many bad things to say about obama/biden and good things to say about palin
i guess it would be a toss up if this were a divided congress. or kind of strange that you’d be mocking biden while voting for him if we had a republican congress
what a convenient cop out
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Not a cop out.
I’d mock Biden while voting for him. Wouldn’t bother me at all, actually.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I’d mock Biden while voting for him. Wouldn’t bother me at all, actually.
why do i have no doubt this would actually happen lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
This is what you said
“An executive… is not expected to have intimate knowledge of what is the best decision in each and every case. They are supposed to have judgement.”
But now you’re saying that judgement doesn’t matter because you’re voting for divided government?
Both candidates meet...
the extremely minimal requirements I have in that regard.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Why are your requirements so low
On this specific standard? I would think that a person’s judgement would be a very meaningful characteristic to look at but you act as if it’s just a bonus in a candidate.
That's the joy of checks and balances...
the President’s judgement just doesn’t matter that much.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Ridiculous.
Did they teach you that in the “securities industry”?
It’s hogwash.
by brettgardner on Oct 27, 2008 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Good God, Ben
She is nowhere near ready for that. She may be, someday, with a lot of work. Talented politician, not ready for prime time.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
why should i?
because she has made some blunders in the press?
if i share policy viewpoints with her why should i have a problem with it?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Again...
I’m sure you share policy viewpoints with many conservatives out there. Are they all qualified to be VP as well?
You should have a problem with it because she is in way over her head.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Exactly what I was going to say
You wouldn’t mind your neighbor becoming president because he shares your view-points? That’s a really unconventional and illogical stance to take.
Your neighbor being president...
probably not a bad idea.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I was thinking about changing my major to Political Science
How hard is it to become a state representative?
PSCI
Is a good degree in that you learn a lot of things. How to write, stats, history, and a bunch of other stuff. If you are a VERY good student it may help you get into the field, but definitely not into office.
If you’re going to major in PSCI, then prepare to go to law school and practice for a few years while being active in your local party. Even a state rep needs quite a bit of money and some good friends to get elected the first time.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions
why should i disagree with her
the issue is that i dont have a problem with her being the president. hell she has more executive experience than any of the three other choices (which could still matter)
does she have less experience than biden/mccain, yes. does she have significantly less experience than obama? personally i do not think so. yes, national vs state experience but still…its not like shes from podunkville, AK who just was picked at random by looking at those who have been republican for the last 10 years…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess you're one of the few
Who doesn’t give a crap about experience of any sort as long as she agrees with you.
again
does she have SIGNIFICANTLY less experience than obama? no.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
she doesn't have a stellar track record in AK either
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I disagree
I think he does have more experience where it counts than she does. Once she gets in the Senate and serves on some meaningful committees and works with the Democrats to pass legislation, get back to me.
But that experience
hasn’t seemed to prepare her for national office as much as Obama’s has. Right now she is a character still learning her lines. Obama has internalized the role and become the character. Big difference there.
In baseball terms, Obama is a top prospect nearly major league ready. Palin’s ceiling is still unknown because she is so raw.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
i can agree with this
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions
?
what?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions
She's not ready
But you still wouldn’t mind seeing her as president. I’m simply saying that you’re being irrational about the whole situation and want her to be the president now when she would be a much better candidate in 8 years.
the same could be said about obama btw (could be a much better candidate in 4 years)
really, the same could be said about almost anyone (hell look at mitt and his policy 8 years ago)
if something happens to mccain (god forbid) then would i be comfortable w/ her being president? yes.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree, he would be a much better candidate in 4 years
But he’s a pretty good candidate at the moment.
You’re telling me you would have voted for Palin in the primary? Obama won his party’s primary, I’m not sure Palin would have made it through the first round of eliminations. I still don’t see what you think is so great about her.
i might have in the primary
i didnt vote for mccain though
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Would have been an interesting election
With Palin v Obama. I wonder who Palin would have chosen as her VP? Some other maverick?
I would argue
…that her experience isn’t very valuable in Washington. She was mayor of a tiny town and then governor of a state that is completely unlike any of the others. It has a small population that doesn’t expect much, and a shit ton of money because of its natural resources. Not many democrats to contend with. There’s just not much of a challenge there. She at least needs to go through a budget fight before she understands what it really means to govern.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...
maybe she needs some other things to really prove she’s ready to handle it. Like people demanding to see her child’s birth certificate. Or having every major media outlet paint her as a barefoot country rube.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
You sound bitter
…and like you’re without a point.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
What do you agree with her on?
Do you think every politician who is pro-life, pro-Iraq, and against raises taxes is a good politician and deserves to be VP?
I’m a far left liberal and I had a problem with Kerry.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
off the top of my head
-creationism in schools/teaching both
-gun rights, gun safety, etc
-abortion
-roe v wade: should be a state issue
-against embryonic stem cell research
-against explicit sex-ed programs
-marriage= 1 man, 1 woman (but i am against a constitutional amendment to ban sam-sex marriage)
-in favor of capitol punishmen
-drill in ANWR
-drill here, drill now
-israel, check
-wants to admit georgia/ukraine into NATO
i dont agree w/ mccain on everything fwiw
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 26, 2008 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
So it seems like
Maybe 2 or 3 of those things would be addressed by a President. And certainly none of them would be addressed by a Vice-President.
And it also seems, according to your test, that all a candidate has to do in order to get in your good graces is pander to you by boiling the world down to a little checklist. Don’t worry about whether a dunce could get it done or not—as long as he/she agrees with you, there’s always someone else to blame if it doesn’t work out.
by brettgardner on Oct 27, 2008 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions
question:
would people be bringing these same “experience” questions up had obama actually gone with “change” and picked tim kaine?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
Gravitas, your name is Barry Obama...
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/obama-shuns-pre.html
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
According to the promotional materials from “EXTRA!,” "Asked about the tragic news that (actress Jennifer) Hudson’s mother and brother were killed Friday in Chicago, Obama states, ‘Oh it was heartbreaking, in fact I’m still trying to get a phone number to call her at this tragic time.
…yet it took them how long to send people to find dirt on joe the plummer? lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
But where does Obama stand...
on the important issue of caffein addiction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljtuGoIIKGs
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
i think its new thread time....
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
I don't.
But that’s just my personal opinion. I think we’ve gotten to the point that everything’s been discussed. The election isn’t close. If I’m sick of talking about it I would venture to guess that others are, too. But if it’s here I can’t quite ignore it.
by Black Francis on Oct 27, 2008 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions
no no
new thread time as in this one is laggy as hell not time to talk aboout another issue, sry lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"I'm more happy to be a Dallas Cowboy than when I got my first bike" - Roy Williams (WR)
by knockoutking on Oct 27, 2008 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions
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