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Sturm, Daniels, and a Fern

Bob Sturm has a blog post up, comparing the WARPs of guys who were here in the system when Jon Daniels took over the Rangers to the WARPs of guys who are here now, in an effort to determine how much better the Rangers would be if Daniels had done nothing but keep the players he kept in place.

As he acknowledges, this assumes moneywhipping a few free agents, which makes this not necessarily realistic.  Nevertheless, using this set of assumptions, he concludes that the Rangers would be 30 games better if Daniels had simply done nothing but kept the status quo.

There are some problems, though, with the methodology.  Sturm omits Marlon Byrd, Nelson Cruz, Matt Harrison and Scott Feldman from the "here and now" group, which would make the numbers better, and also counts Mark DeRosa's full WARP while placing him in RF for the Rangers (when much of DeRosa's value comes from playing 2B).  Ditto Adrian Gonzalez, whose WARP is enhanced as a result of being a very good defensive 1B, but who Sturm puts at DH...the folly of this is revealed by seeing that Gonzalez is considered to be 1 win better than Milton Bradley, even though Bradley was (even adjusting for parks and taking into account playing time missed) the better offensive player, which is all that matters for a DH.

If we re-run the numbers with these adjustments made, it makes a significant difference:

Position Fern Player WARP Daniels Player WARP
C Laird 2.7 Laird 2.7
1B Teixeira 10.0 Davis 2.3
2B Kinsler 8.2 Kinsler 8.2
SS Young 8.1 Young 8.1
3B Davis 2.3 Vazquez 2.8
LF Soriano 5.8 Byrd 5.4
CF GMJ 1.6 Hamilton 8.1
RF DeRosa 6.5 Murphy/Cruz 5.8
DH Gonzalez 6.7 Bradley 7.0
Total 51.9 50.4

I used Laird instead of Teagarden (Sturm's choice), since Laird had the higher WARP3, and I adjusted DeRosa and Gonzalez downwards, to reflect that the fact that they aren't getting credit for the positional adjustment.  I used Murphy and Cruz, together, since the two of them were never on the roster at the same time, replaced Boggs with Byrd, and went with Vazquez at 3B (since he played the most 3B last year, and since he had a higher WARP than Blalock, who Sturm used).

Despite the huge hit at 1B, this is pretty much a wash, with Fern getting a 1.5 win edge.

Next...the rotation...

Pitcher Fern Pitcher WARP Daniels Pitcher WARP
#1 Danks 8.5 Padilla 4.1
#2 Volquez 7.0 Millwood 3.6
#3 Young 2.5 Feldman 1.8
#4 Feldman 1.8 Harrison 1.2
#5 Hurley 0.5 Gabbard 0.9
Total 20.3 11.6

Feldman and Harrison replace Hurley and McCarthy from Sturm's original Daniels rotation, which makes this a little bit closer. 

The bullpen:

Relievers Fern Reliever WARP Daniels Reliever WARP
Cordero 5.8 Nippert 0.6
Dickey 2.5 Wright 2.1
Mahay 2.2 Guardado 2.5
Wilson 0.9 Wilson 0.9
Benoit 1.2 Benoit 1.2
Rupe 1.7 Rupe 1.7
Francisco 3.7 Francisco 3.7
Total 18.0 Total 12.7

I think it is only reasonable to include Guardado in the mix here, if you are going to include guys like Wright and Bradley in the Daniels pool under these rules.  I also think it is worth noting that R.A. Dickey had more innings as a starter than a reliever, but then, if we did that, we'd have to plug him in instead of Hurley above, and add someone like Kam Loe, and it would end up the same anyway.

So...realistically, at the end of the day, the entire difference between the "Fern" team and the Daniels team is three guys:

John Danks

Mark Teixeira

Francisco Cordero

The Danks thing has been beat to death.  Francisco Cordero was signed after last season as a free agent by the Reds, and I don't remember a whole lot of clamoring for folks to bring him back. 

And I don't think anyone is asking for a do-over on the Mark Teixeira trade right now.  And if you do want him back, he's a free agent right now.

That's it, though.  Soriano left, but his production has been matched by Marlon Byrd.  DeRosa is gone, but we've got David Murphy.  Volquez had a great year last year, but Josh Hamilton (in terms of WARP) was better.

This is the reality...the difference between these two groups is a closer who would have been a free agent prior to 2008 anyway, a first baseman whose replacement is in place and who brought a ton of talent in return when he was dealt, and John Danks.

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at least this confirms

we’ve been bitching about the right thing (Danks). No I’m not trying to start another McCarthy/Danks bitch session.

by SteveP on Oct 26, 2008 12:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Really?

If not then let sleeping dogs lie and not post that.

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 26, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I agree with him.

And I have not yet bitched about Danks once.

by philkid3 on Oct 26, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No not you

But you are just fanning the flames for Josey, HH, nice hands and the rest of them.

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 26, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is all I meant

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 26, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually

Adam just gave them ammunition. why don’t you bitch at him?

by SteveP on Oct 26, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad to see this. I knew that there were problems with Bob’s intern’s “research” but hadn’t checked it out. I’m pretty disappointed that he’s gone down the road of taking a joke stance on the Rangers. How can you take anyone seriously who isn’t willing to take the entire minor leagues into account when considering the shape of the organization?

by Brett Perryman on Oct 26, 2008 12:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

I used to really like Sturm. He was the voice of reason on the Ticket when it came to sports.

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 26, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my biggest problem

was the assumptions taken, i’ll give leeway on assuming you resign guys, etc. but to assume the draft would be exactly the same is a bit silly.
and on top of that i suppose you have to assume all the coaches stay the same? well if they did then who’s to say danks and volquez flourish? and that buck wouldnt continue his power struggles and influence signings and trades not to mention draft.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 26, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To me

the assumption that you re-sign guys is stupid. The intern even pointed out that it would result in a much, much higher payroll, but of course Sturm is big on complaining about the payroll too, so he’d just as soon combine the two arguments.

But to say that you should count Cordero against them, when Lee is completely omitted, it’s just stupid. W

by Brett Perryman on Oct 26, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the whole thing

is just stupid. i agree about the free agent signings but for the sake of what they were trying to do i was willing to let that slide.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 26, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the other thing...

If you keep those guys, you don’t have:

Beavan (drafted with compensatory pick from C. Lee, who Cordero was traded for)
Borbon (ditto)
Cruz (acquired in Cordero deal)
Feliz (acquired in Teixeira deal)
Harrison (acquired in Teixeira deal)
Salty (acquired in Teixeira deal)
Andrus (acquired in Teixeira deal)
Beau Jones (acquired in Teixeira deal)
Main (drafted with compensatory pick from GMJ)
Neil Ramirez (drafted with compensatory pick from GMJ)

You also, if you re-sign GMJ, don’t sign Kenny Lofton this past offseason, so if GMJ stays you don’t have Max Ramirez.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pretty much

if you went with the fern you don;t have anything in the farm, which is why i cant get past assuming the draft goes the same

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 26, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that's my big issue with Sturm

He is not willing to even address prospects when debating the Rangers. He’s become Josey Wales for goodness sakes.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 26, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I seem to recall

someone on this board e-mailed him a Rangers prospect question and noted his response in one of our threads here, where he basically admitted that he didn’t have the time to dedicate to following baseball in its entirety, much less the minor leagues.

Outside of Rhyner, I don’t think anyone on The Ticket considers metroplex baseball a priority. Not that Rhyner has any great Rangers insight either.

by jwiscarson on Oct 26, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heh, good thread ...

http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/6/29/561288/mjh-joining-dmn-blog#7059508

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by Chase Irwin on Oct 26, 2008 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sports Sturm knows

most his stuff but he can’t carry my jock when it comes to discussing the Rangers, zywica.

It’s great to have a pipeline full of prospects but having enough talent up and down this organization was not the problem when JD became the GM.

JD will also be very lucky if this current batch of pitchers in the organization turn out be as good as Danks, CYoung and Eddy V have become.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Oct 27, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sturm's Rangers credibility is zero

Sturm knows a lot about sports, but the Rangers is not one of them. The constant carping about Hicks and the bitching about how he doesn’t want to spend money on players is old and not even very applicable. He was one of the biggest pom-pom wavers for “Pony up and sign Barry Zito!” and that’s when I realized Sturm is out of touch with the problems facing the Rangers.

by talkingmike on Oct 26, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just Danks?

That’s a big “JUST” at this point. Especially considering the organization is willing to trade a lot of talent to get a “Dank-like” producer.

Texas always finds hitters.

by 3Bagger on Oct 26, 2008 12:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Meh

This whole line of arguing is so stupid and a waste of time. As I said somewhere else, Sturm would be doing his listeners a huge favor by trying to actually get acquainted with the waves of talent on the way.

But local news and local talk radio are most definitely NOT based on holistic examinations of complex things. They are based on knee-jerk catch phrases designed to get stupid people to call the station and say stupid things. And then some more tasteless jokes that your marketing demographic will chuckle at.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 26, 2008 12:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i think it's interesting

even though the ultimate conclusion is that JD’s made a couple of bad deals to go with some really good ones, which we all knew all along. I think Sturm’s disclaimers somewhat absolve him from JD bashing in this post, particularly the one about the Fern being in win-now mode.

by SteveP on Oct 26, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately

if you have been following the minors as long as Bob has been in the market, there is probably a boy who called wolf effect on our minor leaguers. He’s probably read Newberg for a decade, and has heard of the inevitable superstardom of Laynce Nix, Scott Heard, Colby Lewis, Jason Romano, Jovanny Cedeno, Nick Masset etc.

For all the 20 or so names mentioned by our deep minor leagues, it would be surprising if more than a handful or 2 made a large impact on the major league team. At some point, you judge a GMs success by the success at the major league level, and hopefully JD has some success there in the near future, or he will be replaced by a GM who may not be worth much more than a Fern.

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 26, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

but how many times have you heard the national media praising this farm system that much? For those that say they’ve heard this before, when is the last time you heard people who weren’t specifically Ranger fans praising the farm system that much?

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Oct 26, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe

the farm system is the best it has been, but I can definitely understand someone who has been listening to how great it was back in the days when Doug Melvin was running things being skeptical.

Its pretty important from a development standpoint that we have success in the majors from a homegrown pitcher pretty soon.

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 26, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hear it a lot.

But that’s probably due to what outlets I pay attention to.

by philkid3 on Oct 26, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Heard?

When did anyone proclaim the inevitable superstardom of Scott Heard?

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On his draft day

there was a lot of excitement how he “slid down” to the Rangers if I recall correctly

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 26, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

I was pretty excited, though I wasn’t following things like the draft all that close back then.

All I knew was that the guy BA was talking about as a possible #1 overall fell to us in the mid-20’s and that that sounded pretty good to me.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 26, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might have to hold you to that one
For all the 20 or so names mentioned by our deep minor leagues, it would be surprising if more than a handful or 2 made a large impact on the major league team.

I think you’re going to be wrong on that, and I don’t think that I’m one who’s declared that every prospect would save the franchise. I mean for goodness sakes, they already have Davis to show for it. That’s one.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 26, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the real question is what DJ Cay-Hizzle means by "handfull or two".

If two handfulls means 8 or so players making a large impact on the major league team, then that’s freaking fantastic.

If Cay-Hizzle has small hands and that only means 2 or so players then that sucks.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 26, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well when I read his post I missed that word, thought he was saying a guy or two. Yeah, that all depends on what a handful is. A handful of Rays or Phillies prospects is about to win a WS.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 26, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of a vague concensus top 20 guys in our farm...

…I sincerely doubt only two of them will eventually make an impact for someone at the big league level. Or a handful. High ceiling guys are nice, but many of our high ceiling guys are getting to AA and are doing well. I think at that point you can’t say that 90% of them will be a wash.

by FuturePants on Oct 27, 2008 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another nebulus phrase

that Cahill used was “large impact”. If he’s talking about only a handful being core types, then yeah, maybe so, but it only takes a handful, as we see with TB and Philly. TB developed Kazmir, Upton, Longoria, Crawford and Shields, and for the core of their team that’s really it. Philly developed Hamels, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Burrell. That’s their core, and it’s only five players.

At any rate, any suggestion that this entire farm system of players isn’t going to amount to much is incredibly dismissive, and as I said earlier, the only person who I can see coming to this conclusion is someone who wants the Rangers to fail.

by Brett Perryman on Oct 27, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

x
At any rate, any suggestion that this entire farm system of players isn’t going to amount to much is incredibly dismissive, and as I said earlier, the only person who I can see coming to this conclusion is someone who wants the Rangers to fail.

Cough*seth/steal home/save us/josey wales*Cough

by FuturePants on Oct 27, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

aren't you underappreciating volquez a bit?

volquez over millwood is just as significant as danks over padilla

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Oct 26, 2008 12:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But not as significant as Hamilton over GMJ

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 26, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

If you take out Volquez, you take out Hamilton, as well, and Hamilton grades out higher than Volquez in this deal.

by Adam J. Morris on Oct 26, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah

thanks

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Oct 26, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty nasty looking...

outfield with DeRosa, GMJ, and Soriano.

by Redcaps on Oct 26, 2008 12:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn't that also nearing 200 million dollars for an OF

without getting much positive production (none produce both defensively and offensively). I can’t imagine too many people would be happy about paying for that OF.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Oct 26, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would have been a nightmare.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Oct 26, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

WTF?

"Soriano left, but his production has been matched by Marlon Byrd. "

I roll like Pillsbury and make that dough, boy!

by egriffey on Oct 26, 2008 3:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah man

wtf!??

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 26, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa, cool, REC

Why is it the first?

Adam: you’re really good at developing an independent perspective that is molded from data.

Please keep doing that — time and life permitting.

Meaning of life? The aggregate collection of moments that you allow to enter into your consciousness, imo, fwiw, etc. (etc.)

by Chase Irwin on Oct 26, 2008 3:31 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

so

according to your analysis, this team would have been ~15 wins better if Daniels hadnt done anything?

am I interpreting WARP correctly?

by kumizi on Oct 26, 2008 5:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What was Akis WARP?

That would seem to be higher than Nipperts which would make it a bit closer. Or are you strictly using last years roster as an example?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 26, 2008 6:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

nice try to make Daniels look better

but its still 30 wins. HE IS THE WORST

by Save us on Oct 26, 2008 7:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No

It takes about four years to repair any franchise John Hart decimates. Try to just comment on stuff other than baseball, OK?

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Oct 26, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow....

You know Steal Home/Seth/Save us, that you have finally crossed the line when Ed is laying down the hammer

by laxtonto on Oct 26, 2008 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No shit

A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555

by boomer1 on Oct 26, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sir, Ed has spoken....

good day.

i like baseball too

by bspate on Oct 27, 2008 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,I think

I am just going to agree with Ed and let all further discussion on this topic cease. Lets all try to do the same. The flame baiting is getting old

by laxtonto on Oct 27, 2008 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Better solution

If possible, AJM just needs to IP ban mister nice hands/steal home/save us. There probably aren’t many too many other bloggers who would put up with nonsense like this for half as long as AJM has, and that’s definitely to Adam’s credit – but between all the multiple usernames and disruptive commenting this guy has made since he showed up, enough is enough.

A Lonestar in California

"[Tim McCarver and Joe Buck] are the Gabe Gross and Ben Broussard of the broadcasting booth." - dirkatron

by lonestarJon on Oct 27, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

until that IP ban comes all of us just need to igore the idiot and not reply to a single post of his. As lax said above the flame baiting is just annoying now.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Oct 27, 2008 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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