new day, new OT political thread
by RangerMad on Oct 30, 2008 12:40 PM CDT
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A new day, a new OT political thread.
Lets start off with media bias. Is it just a figment of McCain's imagination?
The Pew Research Center's Project for Excellence in Journalism released a report called "The Color of News." It is an analysis of how different media have covered this election from early Sept to mid Oct. The highlights...
Tone of Coverage
McCain Obama
Pos Neutral Neg Pos Neutral Neg
msnbc 10% 17% 73% 43% 43% 14%
fox 22 38 40 25 35 40
cnn 13 26 61 36 25 39
media 14 29 57 36 35 29
While CNN pretty much matched the total media coverage, FOX was pretty consistent in their coverage of McCain and Obama.
Much more is in the report than what I presented. Check it out at http://journalism.org/node/13436
For the debunkers, go to http://journalism.org/about_pej/about_us
Almost forgot this tidbit. Positive reports by newspapers: McCain 6% Obama 45%
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Come on.
Who tabulated that? An unattached brain? It’s practically impossible to separate people from their biases.
If Obama is getting more positive coverage, it’s because more positive things are happening for him. The reasoning which says “The media reports negatively about McCain because it doesn’t like him and it doesn’t like him because it reports negatively about him” is quite circular.
It's like saying
There should be the same ratio of positive to negative stories about both Tampa Bay and Seattle this year.
There is a reason there are more positive than negative stories about Tampa Bay, and any outlet that had an equal number would likely be biased.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
But the baseball stories are rightly centered on performance...
and shouldn’t the election stories be more about policies than handicapping and critiquing performance?
That was mentioned quite well in one of the articles surrounding the Pew research – that the issue isn’t negative bias toward the candidate as much as it’s over-emphasis on horse-picking and trend analysis. On those fronts, McCain DESERVES more negative coverage, while Obama deserves more positive coverage for the phenomenonal campaign he’s run. If the media spent more time on analysis and reporting of positions and less on trying to do play-by-play, THEN I think we could make something of the numbers.
Most political stories
are centered on poll performance.
All news coverage is based on “news”, that is, new information. Polls give you new information to report on almost daily. What is there to report “new” on either candidates tax plan? They’ve been stable for awhile. Most of the policy issues don’t change quickly enough to qualify as news.
That’s why news reporting is more about poll numbers, Joe the Plumber, and how much money Palin spends on clothes than it is about policy. Policy isn’t news. Joe the Plumber is, at least for a few news cycles.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Right,
and the media are wrongly blamed for this (even by me sometimes). It’s human nature. If the media just kept reporting “the issues” nobody would watch/read. For the same reason bloggers put up new entries. People don’t keep coming back to read the same things over and over.
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But isn't there a HUGE gap between those two extremes?
No one (or at least not me) is advocating 24×7 policy analysis. So no, I’m not suggesting they just “keep reporting the issues”.
But it IS true that if you strictly watch the big 3 channels, you will barely hear any analysis, even superficial, about policies and any inconsistencies or changes of position. Even the stories thta deal with policy pronouncements say more about the strategy of the announcement and the surrounding environment impacting the pronouncement than about the actual substance of it.
Maybe it’s an overly-semantic point, but I really don’t consider constant poll numbers as news either. Personally, I don’t understand why the average viewer should even CARE what the poll numbers are. Human nature would tell you that focusing on the polling just leads to self-fulfilling projections. “OMG, Hillary dropped 3 points after the xxx primary. She should get a bounce according to conventional wisdom, so what’s she doing wrong? Should I jump off her bandwagon?”
Because Politics
has become like Football. Most of the political arguments are as inane. Most of the supporters cheer for the laundry. Most of the guys excuse “their” Pacman Jones types. You got Rush Limbaugh types who are the same as Mickey Spagnola types.
Whether the Cowboys run a 3-4 or a 4-3 is important, but since it doesn’t change, there is more coverage on what happened on the scoreboard last Sunday.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
One reason
There are simply too many news shows broadcasting too many hours of the day. We really don’t need this many 24-hour news channels.
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You would think
with all that time to burn, you could have a program that would go in depth on a single issue, like taxes, or defense, or healthcare, or whatever and go through each nominees plan in detail, and compare and contrast them.
The truth is, to me neither of their plans make a lick of sense economically, but it would be nice to go down and have a balanced panel of rational Dems and Republican pundits, rather than the usual screamfest panel they put together.
Unfortunately, it would probably draw trash ratings.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
???
So you say you can’t separate people from their biases but you are try to argue that their is no media bias?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Didn't you know??
They are the only class of people able to keep their biases in check and remain above the fray. We don’t even expect judges to do that – we expect them to recuse themselves.
That being said, these “studies” do little to analyze the effect of the bias. Common sense would tell you that since (a) biases exist in all of us (b) media studies show a preponderance of media consider themselves liberal or Democratic, and © most mere mortals can’t separate their biases from their actions on a consistent basis, that this mythical beast must actually exist.
But since we can’t even admit to it, how the hell can we ever mitigate it?
To infer that because journalists have political leanings means that those leanings taint their work is selling an entire profession pretty short
That basically assumes one of 2 things. Either these journalists have no integrity and/or pride in their work, or they’re too stupid to realize when they are doing it.
I particularly disagree with this statement: “We don’t even expect judges to do that – we expect them to recuse themselves.”
Yes, Judges recuse themselves when they have a stake of some sort in the outcome. But dozens of professions have situations where their biases could come into play. I was an instructor in the Navy for a stretch. Had this one kid that talked politics all the time, and there wasn’t a single damn thing I agreed with him on. He also didn’t present his case in a manner that was particularly logical or respectful. Did the quality of instruction he received from me suffer in any way? Hell no. Despite the fact that I couldn’t stand this dude for a number of reasons, it was a matter of professional integrity. Cops are another good example. Is a police officer expected to recuse himself when a hippie’s house is robbed?
I suspect most journalists are like most people. While they have their biases, they put their dedication to their chosen profession as their highest priority. Are there journalists that are only out to further or support their own political viewpoint? Of course. But I suspect the vast majority of them consider it their obligation to get the truth and get it right, whatever their worldview may be. I really think this biased media idea is severely overblown, although it is a genius of a political tactic.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
This is excellent
You have articulated here what I have tried to say for a long time. Thanks.
To elaborate slightly on your last line, I believe that people will unfortunately choose to see a bias if they want to in order to satisfy their viewpoints.
In praise of arguing
I’ve enjoyed the arguments here about the election. Though there’s a lot of partisan bickering, people saying anything to defend their candidate of choice no matter what happens, I still think it’s been good old fashioned arguing. Vigorous discussion of details of politics and policy is good for the country, and it’s been a good way for me to become more informed of others’ ideas and opinions.
Don’t take too much offense at things said in these threads. Arguing is healthy. Insults and ad hominems are not, but there is nothing wrong with arguing.
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Shut up you jerkfaced poophead
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Bad formatting.
I’m sure that should have read.
Shut up, you.
signed,
Jerkfaced Poophead.
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Poll finds 23% of Texans are stupid.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6084678.html
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Especially with an active campaign
to convince folks that he is a Muslim.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
where? who?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Want me to forward the EMail to you?
I get probably 5 pieces a week with the whole “He’s a muslim” thing tagged to it.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
see im not on any lists for that kinda stuff
(and as you can imagine there isnt too much info about that out and about in DC lol)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Mostly
my brother and one other person I send EMails to seem to think I want to be on the Right wing wacko mailing list.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
haha
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
and, worst of all
a socialist because he wants to redistribute wealth in a slightly different way than the GOP.
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The GOP name calling campaign
seems to have gone into hyperdrive this year. It seems to me that more and more of the campaigning I see is of the variety of “we might end up with Obama/Reid/Pelosi” or Obama is a Muslim, rather than a listing of what McCain would do and what his selling points are.
I think the problem is, when you list his selling points, he looks a lot like Bush.
1) Same Tax plan, with additional cuts for health care.
2) Same base spending plan, with a “spending freeze”. Unfortunately since a large majority of the budget is pretty much out of his control without some active cuts, like Defense, interest on the Debt, Social Security, etc. This is really pretty much status quo spending.
3) Has drifted back to the Bush plan on Stem cells.
4) Has drifted back to the Bush plan on the environment
So, when the opponents big weapon against you is not to extend Bush’s 3rd term, and McCain’s policies haven’t separated from Bush very much, all you have left is attacking your opponent. Keeping his base happy has pushed him into a very Bushlike platform. For all the world, it looks like Bush with an even more aggressive foreign/military policy.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Interestingly enough...
I was talking to the middle eastern doctor I’m following around right now and he told me this: In Islam, the religion of your father determines what you are. So since his father was a Muslim, the Muslim world views him as a Muslim regardless of what choices about religion he has made in his life.
I don’t know if this is true; this is the first I’ve heard of it. Not that it really affects my vote either way…
by GhettoBear04 on Oct 30, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
So
if someone has a Muslim father and a Jewish mother, then he/she is considered Muslim AND Jewish by those respective cultures?
We have a solution to the Middle East dilemma! I expect my Nobel Peace Prize soon…
my parents
were one of the 23% until i set them straight
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
I want to see the other states
My uncle in South Carolina sent that to me, and I almost sent back that I imagine 40% of South Carolinians think that.
awesome
mccain calls out for joe the plumber at a rally…but he’s not there.
probably getting a shoe deal
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Or trying to convince the world
that Obama wants “Death to Israel.” What a tool.
1/20/09 - The end of a error.
Question for the Republicans in the crowd re: Sarah Palin.
CNN has an interesting story on the division Palin’s role in the party seems to be causing. What I would like to know from the Republicans in the crowd is what they would like her role to be moving forward and whether anybody believes she is a viable, or desirable, candidate for 2012 (assuming McCain loses)?
Since I am asking the question, I’ll provide the first answer. I have voted in the Republican primary every election since 2000 (when, ironically, I supported McCain). I think the last 8 years and the dominance of the party by neo-cons has been a disaster. I think Palin represents more of the same focus on social issues and abandonment of sound fiscal conservatism. I think the best thing for the Republican Party moving forward is for Palin to recede back into obscurity.
heres a question though
if stevens wins…does she replace him in the senate?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Can she
pick herself to replace him? Does he even resign?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
does she pick the replacement or does the RNC?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it is up to
the state. I don’t know if the Alaska legislature or Gov gets to pick the replacement.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
I believe the only way she could do it...
…is if she were not the Governor at the time, or Stevens resigned. If Stevens resigns (which he’ll never do), then they have to hold a special election 90 days after his resignation, in which Palin can run.
But if he is expelled from the Senate, I think the legislature gets to pick the replacement, and I don’t think you can pick a sitting Governor.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Thats what I think
happens. I think Stevens has the ability to redeem himself by setting her up to carry the GOP in 2012. As for the question about helping or hurting, its both. She hurt McCain but helped the party. There is no doubt that the GOP knows after they get creamed in this election that they are going to have to start thinking 5 moves ahead. Instead of waiting for a savior, they are going to have to groom one. She’s the obvious choice. They need her more than she needs men I mean them. I could also see her running as an independent if the party if the GOP fails to embrace her.
by corbsclinton on Oct 30, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
So the other Senator Murkowski
was picked to be Senator by her father, who was governor at the time (the sitting governor that Palin defeated in her primary challenge).
So I’m pretty sure the governor of Alaska can pick a replacement under certain circumstances. But I doubt you can pick yourself. Maybe if Palin resigned so that the new governor (presumably the Lt. Gov) could appoint her…
Here are the details on Murkowski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Murkowski
Seems like an ideal primary challenge for Sarah Palin in 2010 – she’s a pro-choice, social moderate in a pretty conservative state. She’s only in office because her dad appointed her to the seat when he became governor (leaving the Senate), though she did win re-election
My money says that Palin runs against her in 2010, and then we see her as a Presidential candidate in 2016.
I think it would be a mistake
for her to go to Washington. Part of her appeal is that she is a reformer. A Washington outsider. I think a 2nd term as Governor would help her more than a stint in Congress.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Personally, I think its probably easier
to get elected as a Governor. Clinton, Bush Jr., Carter, Reagan, etc.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
oops
She can’t appoint herself
Upon his inauguration, he resigned his Senate seat and appointed his daughter, Lisa Murkowski, the Majority Leader-designate of the Alaska House of Representatives, in his place. This led his opponents to accuse him of nepotism; as a result, a ballot measure passed in 2004 stripped governors of the power to appoint U.S. Senators, making Alaska one of only three states to do so.
but back to your orig question
in 2012 i think she MIGHT be a possible candidate (at least a VP choice depending onw hat road she takes)
that said, i think that its possible someone like charlie crist or bobby jindel (my pick) steamrolls everyone on their way to the nomination – this is presuming the obama machine isnt rolling over everyone like putin did in 2004 when no “real” candidates ran against him because of backlash from putin + not wanting to risk their political careers on something that was a 100% guaranteed loss
id love to see how jindel handles himself the next few years…
by the way, anyone in texas know anything about michael williams (RR commish) – my friend who went to the repub state convention keeps talking about him a LOT + he spoke at teh repub national convention as well…any thoughts?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I hear more and more about Jindal.
And he seems like a good pick for 2012. Young minority governor of a strong “conservative values” state. The only thing Repubs have to watch out for with Jindal is this.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
so whats such a problem with the fact
that he believes in spiritual warfare?
again why is that a problem to the majority of the people out there? would it make a difference if obama was muslim? no but it would make a difference if jindal believes in spiritual warfare?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Well...I dunno...
…the whole “exorcism” thing is kind of…out there. At least to me.
And that’s not a knock on anyone’s religion; people believe what people believe. I just don’t know if the “exorcism” thing will play well with middle-of-the-road Americans, if that makes sense.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
ooo ok
i read too much into what you were trying to say, my bad
idk if thats his only “negative” is that relaly that big ofo ne?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm certainly not maligning
anyone’s religions, but you can’t say that’s exactly a mainstream kind of thing.
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and?
lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I don't think so.
They’ll play it off by saying something along the lines of, “Well, Jack Kennedy was a Catholic, and they’re crazy, so who cares?”
By the way, I’m Catholic. So I can say we’re crazy. Because we are.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
lol
i dont think it should be that big of a thing but thats me
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 30, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
"Conservative values state"
That is the perception.
It is funny to me though, that a state whose major hub is Nawlins, the most decadent and debauched city in the country, a city that would make Tijuana blush, is a bedrock of conservative values.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
i have a few friends who live in new orleans
there is obviously a good mix of social values but it seems liek the immeidate suburbs are filled with people who are extremely conservative. anecdotal at best.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
It depends
It depends upon what her message is going forward. Does she taut reform, fiscal and personal responsibilty? Is that message inline with what the party powerbrokers want for the 2010 midterm elections. You can’t deny her popularity. She could definitely bring in the dough for the Republicans. If she goes out and raise bucks for the party, she will want something in return.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
I was guessing tort
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
My take
I’ve said here a few times, but new thread, so it’ll go here.
She’s a force for the future, certainly. I think that IF SHE IS SMART she’ll wait until 2016. By then she’ll have two terms in the governors mansion and/or a Senate seat (win a primary challenge against the nepotism Senator Lisa Murkowski?).
If Palin has 6 or 8 years as governor, and some time in Washingon in either the Senate and/or House, she’ll be a real threat. The inexperience claim doesn’t work on her then (same or more experience than Clinton & Bush), and she’ll have run a national campaign before. Who knows if she has the staying power, but if she’s smarter than people think, then she’ll stay in the national scene and be ready then.
I think running in 2012 would be stupid. Obama is either really popular and cannot be beat, or he’s real weak and stronger Republicans (Crist, Jindhal, Giuliani, Romney, Huckabee, etc) will all be going for the nomination, and all will blame Palin for McCain’s loss to get her out of the race.
klaw on the election:
Keith Law: I have just one comment on Tuesday’s election: You can be the President; I’d rather be the Pope.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
huh?
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
idk
but made me laugh since i went from 538 —> klaw chat lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions
What do you expect?
McCain has run the most negative campaign in recent presidential election history, and has been in constant conflict with the media…whether it is kicking people off of his campaign bus or shielding Palin from interviews and press conferences. When you run a shit campaign, this is what you get. Should the media lie and say some nice stuff about McCain? People sound like crybabies when they play the “media is biased” card.
"Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor"
people sound like uninformed fools when they play the “media is not biased” card
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
ironic that what?
you want to argue the media is not biased?
note, i did not say intentionally biased, but biased nonetheless
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I just think
It’s odd that a certain subset of people assumes an entire industry cannot do their jobs properly, and that certain subset just happens to have a common agenda.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
the media is biased. no, i do not think there is some huge conspiracy against republicans, the RNC, etc out there. i dont think they are all biased against john mccain
i do think that the majority of the TV networks have a liberal slant (minus fox)
i do think that the majority of radio slants towards conservatives
just read below.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
okay
That’s what I was going to reference. So don’t you feel an offset when TV slants one way and radio slants another? I think your original comment of “uninformed fools” is a little harsh when we basically agree.
I believe you’re reading into the “media is not biased card” too much. I think that’s a simple response to make to the claim that the perceived media bias is somehow costing McCain the election.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
I believe you’re reading into the "media is not biased card" too much. I think that’s a simple response to make to the claim that the perceived media bias is somehow costing McCain the election.
yea i was reading too much into it (partly based on the name)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Okay, a little mini-poll
Is there anyone out there who changed their mind because of the Palin pick? I’m not asking if it is good/bad, or inviting anyone whose mind was made up long ago to make smart comments. Just, did the selection of Palin make you decide to vote one way or another (or solidify a marginal bias)?
solidified
I was leaning Obama anyway after McCain moved to the right during the primaries. Palin’s performance in September pretty much cemented it.
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+1
I was leaning Obama as well, and the Palin pick just solidified my stance toward Obama.
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
My Mom, who is your typical upper middle class, highly-educated-but-with-no-real-hesitation-to-not-work-when-Hubby's-bringing-home-the-tenderloin-and-she-can-do-pilates-and-starbucks-and-plan-the-next-trip-to-NYC-lazy-days,
The type that is a moderate Republican, but staunchly pro-choice, and thinks of themselves as a feminist even though they are really a Bill Burr housefire feminist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OvvgPwGZOU
It was the tipping point for her.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 30, 2008 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
This has probably been asked
but shit, I’m not reading all these posts now. How does one determine whether something is “positive” or “negative.” Seems pretty damn subjective.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
comethefuckon
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Last night
I heard the idiocy of Laura Ingraham whining on Bill O’Reilly that the only reason McCain was losing was because of media bias, and talking about how out of control the MSNBC bias was. It was hilarious coming from Fox News.
MSNBC learned everything it knows from Fox News, and then just pumped up the volume in a different market niche.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
MCNBC does have a ton of bias lol
but i want to see how many people will watch them after the election/what happens to their #s
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
"MCNBC does have a ton of bias lol"
In another thread, you seemed to admit you’ve hardly ever watched it. You were familiar with none of the names I mentioned.
So, essentially, you keep repeating that it is biased because others have told you so. That’s kind of weak, don’t you think?
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure they have Bias
they learned from Fox News that Bias is profitable. It gives them a niche where they aren’t head to head with CNN, the straight news organization.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
cnn is still slanted
that said, when i was in HS i my (quite conservative) fam would watch fox usually but CNN a fair amoutn of time. it was probably between 60/40 and 70/30 but the point dad always said was how important it was to take everything with a grain of salt
there are 3 sides to (almost) every story. my side, your side and the truth
now, i watch fox news from time to time (usually o’reilly) cnn from time to time (if roommates are around b/c they are liberal/independent) and it really tuns out to be about 50/50 now
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
comethefuckon
You cannot possibly look objectively at all media and say there is a pervasive bias in once direction. Media includes tv, radio, internet, newspapers, and blogs. I would say that tv leans slightly left overall, but radio leans right, the internet has lots of both leanings, newspapers are a wash, and blogs are ridiculous partisan camps.
To boil all that down and blithely say “media always favors liberals” is just simplistic bullshit whining. McCain is losing because he has run a terrible campaign, not because of media bias.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
You're doing it the right way
saying that different types of media have different biases. And really that is how things got to be the way they are. TV has a slightly left lean, on average, so conservatives started listening to radio. If you go by channels, MSNBC is obviously liberal, CNN & the Networks have a slight leaning, but FoxNews – obviously conservative – has the highest ratings on cable. Obviously radio is more conservative, but liberals can listen to NPR (so long as they don’t fall asleep…). The internet is what it is (by the way, have there been any good google-bombs this year?). And newspapers are a mix – though I would argue that the NY Times gets too much credit as “the paper of record” – their bias is almost as strong as MSNBC’s.
The way I see it, everyone can get their news from wherever they want nowadays. Which means the influence of the national media on voters is pretty marginalized. Local may be a different story – I have no idea whether the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, or whatever their newspaper is, is liberal or conservative – but that probably matters a lot more than whether Katie Couric wears black for a week after Bush is elected.
NPR
I don’t see them as biased. They are “liberal” in the sense that they tend to cover topics hippie-types are interested in I suppose, but not in their political coverage.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't mean as much that they are biased
They aren’t Air America or Rush Limbaugh or anything. But liberals do like to listen to them. And they do tend to have the type of sappy stories about people’s causes that inevitably make cold hearted conservatives look bad for obstructing (which is true, I particularly enjoy throwing cold water on people’s ’causes’). At least that is what I’ve noticed.
They ALWAYS give equal time
It doesn’t matter if they’re Democrats or Republicans…I bet most really wealthy people get their radio news from NPR. They get their TV news from The News Hour. And they probably read WSJ, the Washington Post and especially the NY Times because it’s one of the only papers left with a bunch of foreign bureaus. It has something to do with thorough coverage.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
News Hour
definitely my favorite, though I don’t get to watch it much.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
If I had the money and the time
I would subscribe to and read the WSJ from front to back daily (well, not all the quotes, of course). I really like that paper
i dont think at all that there is any specific bias in any specific way overall in the media
that said, do i think there has been a bias in favor of obama? yes
do i think its always intentional? no way! (except for MSNBC heh heh)
i mean look at it from a few different directions
-you have a “new face”, therefore they are going to more likely get more media coverage – especially if they take a few heavyweights out of the way
-the new face is also a VG public speaker, and is coming right after a very unpopular president has been in power for 8 years from the opposite party
-you have a groundbreaking candidate (black) – will get more media coverage in general, and probably slanted (intentionally or unintentionally) positive because of his skin color/no one wants to come off as a racist (this would be the case if he was a dem or a republican)
-you have someone whose views are (on the surface) wildly popular, that will receive a lot of coverage
Therefore, if you have a groundbreaking, wildly popular "new face" from the opposite party that has been in the oval office for the last 8 years, you can clearly tell that the tide is turning and your goal is to make money – why would you report negatively on the "new face" when it will effect your ratings, etc.
And this would be the case if the "new face" was from either party
Look, fox news is a perfect example of a group that knows what its target market is. They slant towards that market (conservative). Equally, that is what MSNBC is trying to do – slant towards their goal market (obama supporters) although in my eyes they are doing a much worse job of it than fox, but then again im conservative lol.
No matter what the network is or what the source is – you have to take it with a grain of salt, because bias does appear in many ways. There is no "unbiased" network out there. No one is 100% in the exact middle. Everyone slants (some more than others) towards what they see as their market. Fox and conservatives. MSNBC and obama supporters. CNN and what they see as the "general" population. Rush and the farrrrrrrrrr right, etc.
In the end, everyone slants one way or another. To deny it is foolish.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
okay so
Do you think this perceived pro-Obama bias is a major factor in the outcome of the election?
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
how about i kind of cop out and say this:
i think it has hurt mccain, which has helped obama…
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
nbc/mason dixon poll in PA
has had a lot of airtime today.
it has obama up only +4 (47-43)
2 other polls came out today.
muhlenberg has obama +13 (54-41)
cnn/time has obama +12 (55-43)
outlier? maybe.
look at some other polls from tues and wed
rasmussen obama +7 (53-46)
insider advantage obama +9 (51-42)
marist college obama +14 (55-41)
quinnipiac obama +12 (53-41)
ap-gfk obama +12 (52-40)
franklin and marshall obama +13 (53-40)
//////////////////
that’s 9 polls in 3 days.
only 1 has obama below 51 (only 2 below 52)
only 3 has obama up less than 10 (only 1 below 7)
the composite average of all these polls is obama 52.6 mccain 41.9 (obama +10.7)
take out that crazy nbc/mason dixon poll and it’s obama 53.2 mccain 41.7 (obama +11.5)
actually, mccain IS CATCHING UP in PA.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Seen the latest Ohio poll?
I guess McCain doesn’t know or understand the concept of ‘few’ is.
“The pundits have written us off, just as they’ve done several times before,” he said. “We’re a few points down, but we’re coming back.”
The latest national poll released Thursday, the CBS-NY Times national poll, put Obama and Joe Biden at 52 percent, McCain and Sarah Palin at 39 percent. It had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percent.
The polls are all over the place.
As I’ve said before, I think they’re overstating Obama’s lead.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
And
As I’ve said before, your utter lack of information to back that claim up is impressive.
by brettgardner on Oct 30, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, when he's talking about 'points'
I’m assuming that he’s talking about the polls and he doesn’t mention the fact that they could be overstating Obama’s lead. Was just commenting on his generous use of the term ‘few’.
His internals...
show a much smaller spread than the public polls.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I'm very
Confident that you don’t know what that means.
by brettgardner on Oct 30, 2008 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm tired of hearing about his internals
what makes him think that his polls are better than the other 10 pollsters?
and why not release them?
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Well...
McCain consistently polls better midweek than over weekends, for example. Obviously, I think the sampling models they’re using are overstating Obama’s lead.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
election prediction?
lets hear it.
"Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor"
I don't have a prediction.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
yeah, ben's...
…anti-opinion when comes to what he thinks might happen… this has been long established…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
It will
be over on Nov. 4th.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Thank goodness.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
0.2% chance of a tie
and 2.25% chance of a recount in a decisive state, according to 538.com.
So while RangerMad may be right technically, we could all be tortured with this for weeks on end, a la 2000…
weekend vs. midweek
one small factor among many. Most of the pollsters admit that they are undercounting youth with no landlines, which would undercount Obama’s vote.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
That's the point
I keep harping on in conversations. People seem to blow it off as though it’s not legitimate. I don’t think I know one person in college that has a land line.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
what makes you think midweek is better?
i have a bunch of compelling reasosn why weekend would be better.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Neither camapaign would ever release their internal polling
They cover more than just “who would you vote for”. Very confidential information.
I’ve seen some pretty bad internal polls, though. Some try to do too much. Simpler is better, because if you start asking too many questions you’re bound to get fatigue and accidentally push the respondent one way or the other.
Based on the way he’s campaigning, they have determined self-identified independents and undecideds do not feel like they know Obama well enough, and they they can define who he is. That’s why you’re getting these scattered attacks all over the place. They’re trying to put doubt in people’s heads. But they never stick with anything for very long and it’s not working…usually presidential races tighten up a lot faster than this one has.
In my lifetime I cannot remember a worse campaign for President. Even Dole in 1996 ran a better campaign…he just wasn’t nearly good enough to go toe to toe with Clinton. Nobody was. But this time McCain really is a good candidate with a horrible, horrible campaign. There’s been so many false starts and missed opportunities that it’s unreal. The message has been very inconsistent and there are serious questions about his strategy. It’s been that way from the very, very beginning. He shouldn’t have needed a miracle comeback in New Hampshire against all those other chumps.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah - McCain gets an "epic fail" for this one
Steve Schmidt should never get another job in politics again. This campaign has been one excruciatingly long “Dukakis-in-the-tank” moment that drags on forever.
Ross Perot
I remember him in ‘92 saying on the eve of the election that the polls were close and he was going to surprise people and I eagerly awaited (I was young enough where I thought it would be cool to see somebody completely inexperienced to run the country run the country). Then election day I was kind of confused when he said "we certainly surprised a few people even though he didn’t come close in any state.
I realized then that the candidate message of the underdog is pretty much already written. They could be down by 50 points and they would say the same thing. It doesn’t really help to say, “we are about to lose, please vote for us anyway.”
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Neat
Last night I wrote about the political machinery of the parties and wondered if a change had happened. I truly am fascinated by the process as much as the result.
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/10/29/649153/another-new-political-thre#
Nate Silver’s interview with Dan Rather seems to reflect my thoughts (about 10 minutes but I think it’s worth it).
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/election-night-preview-with-dan-rather.html
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
mccain nearly makes gains everyday for a week
day/obama lead (rcp averages)
fri 7.9
sat 8.0
sun 7.6
mon 7
tues 6.7
wed 6
thur 5.9
mccain caught up 2 points in the polls in 7 days. now he needs to catch up about 1.5 points a day.
his road to 270 still seems VERY HARD.
obama’s road to 269 seems very easy.
but as i’ve said over and over, it ain’t over.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
McCain
can make all the gains he wants in the national polls, but the state polls haven’t changed much and that’s what matters. I expect the popular vote to go Obama by about 5-6 points, but Obama to still get well over 300 EVs.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
one can only hope
that obama wins by 5-6%.
nowadays a 3-4% win would mean a landslide because people are so partisan.
if the national polls get close, it means state polls do too.
question is which ones? does mccain just increase leads in OK and ID? or does he get gains in OH, FL, PA, VA, NC, etc..?
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
is there a site out there
where we can all do our own maps/post them here?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
I went to Electoral-Vote.com and did the "print screen" thing.
But a warning that Electoral-Vote.com is kind of extreme…jumps to a lot of conclusions.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Amazingly
Obama has outspent McCain more than 2-1, has had an overwhelming media advantage, and yet he still might lose the election.
Not bloody likely
And that overwhelming media advantage is bullshit.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
no its not likely
but the point is there is still a very small chance that if everything falls right mccain can win
and thats after 8 years of bush + being outspent
its actually kind of impressive lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Eh
By that logic Kerry’s campaign was impressive because he “only” lost by 34 EV
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
but did kerry outspend bush by that much?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
sorry
my point was that obama outspent mccain by that much + outside factors and it was a race with a small (3.7% according to 538) chance to win
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
They ran an ok campaign
Nothing stellar, but it was hard to put that swift boat shit to rest. If not for those kinds of tactics and the Ohio mess he would’ve won by at least that much.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
if not for his personality
and appearance as a giant tool. He might have won. John Kerry was an awful nomination.
Whatever makes you feel better
“Sure, the Rangers lost. But just think – if they only had better starting pitching, better bullpen pitching and few more timely hits, they might have won. Really makes you think.”
Or how about this – if people would have actually liked McCain they would have given him money and then, since he had money and people actually liked him, he would win.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
False analogy
with the Rangers – McCain hasn’t lost anything yet.
I forgot to mention the financial crisis as well – that should have sealed the deal for a big Obama win, but it looks like it’s going to be pretty close either way…
Heh
I love this argument so much. “We suck and we have absolutely no shot to win. The other guy’s going to win, obviously, but isn’t the fact that he’s not blowing us out telling?”
It’s a loser’s argument, just like the “don’t let Obama have too much of a Democratic majority” argument.
Just relax, if you can. The world won’t change. You’ll still have all the freedom in the world to be a hypocritical faux-Christian who condemns with all the power of God those who disagree with you. Life is good, no?
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
hm
I forgot to mention the financial crisis as well – that should have sealed the deal for a big Obama win…
You should think about why this is an advantage to Obama in the first place.
There’s no evidence that the election will be close. I mean you can cherry pick a few polls and trick yourself into thinking that, but really there’s no evidence for it.
And look at the results of the last two Presidential elections. Very, very close. 2004 is overshadowed by 2000, but both were very close contests. What’s going on now means something.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
if people would have actually liked McCain they would have given him money and then, since he had money and people actually liked him, he would win.
mccain could have gotten more money but he had the cutoff b/c he took federal money and obama reneged on taking the federal money
would it have shaped up differently had he not changed his mind, probabyl not, but there would have been no 30 min infomercial lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
The fact is...
…he blew his wad before the primaries started and wasn’t doing a good job raising money. He was forced into it. It blows my mind that a GOP candidate would be relying on federal financing.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
im still shocked that he took the federal $$
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
question
had he taken romney though, romney could have used his PERSONAL money or no?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks
that said, romney could have given money to the RNC and they could have used it?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure about that
But they don’t have a shortage of resources so I don’t think that matters. I mean the RNC may be short of cash-on-hand right now for the first time in forever, but they can raise money like crazy. The thing is at this point they’re not going to spend it on McCain…they’re trying to defend Congressional seats. Even if Romney gave them money he couldn’t tell them what to do with it.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Really?
Even if he didn’t opt for public financing?
So a Perot or Bloomberg style campaign couldn’t happen anymore after McCain-Feingold?
How did the Clintons get away wtih “loaning” her campiagn so much money during the primaries?
oh, I remember this dicussion
the argument is that the VP isn’t at the top of the ticket, so he too would be limited to $2300, right?
That's right.
I don’t know the limit…I’ll take your word for it on that.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
BUT if romney was at the top of the ticket he COULD use personal money
that makes no sense
if hes on the ticket he should be able to use personal money – as president or veep
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely not
Then the campaign would be ripping off the taxpayers by taking their money when they didn’t need it. It’s a campaign for President, not Vice President. There’s no “Vice Presidential Campaign” for him to spend his own money on.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, you're still here?
That’s cute. Got any actual points not based around religious fervor yet?
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
but you...
…make fun of him… i think you forget, you only love god is god says you do or 4Him says its plausible…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
AH! I see now.
I view God as a God of love, who loves me unconditionally.
4Him views him as a God of spite, who will disown me if I don’t vote for John McCain.
I understand completely now.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
You know
making fun of and attacking others is not really a characteristic of a “God-loving Christian”. You’ve got some growing up to do…
Who is attacking?
Please explain to me how my previous assertion…
I view God as a God of love, who loves me unconditionally.
4Him views him as a God of spite, who will disown me if I don’t vote for John McCain.
…is incorrect. I’m very interested to hear.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
How is it incorrect?
Are you serious? Obviously, I don’t view Him as a God of spite, who will disown you if you don’t vote for John McCain.
That's kind of how you're coming off to everyone.
That your way is the only way to view God.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
So, let me get this straight...
…there’s only one way to God (which I can’t dispute).
So that means that it is the duty of true Christians to tell people that they are wrong? That they’re going to hell?
How is that not judging?
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
It's the duty of true Christians
to know Him and make Him known to others. That means being faithful to the Bible and His words. Doing so is not judgmental, b/c He is the Creator and we are responsible to reflect Him, to respond to Him.
Let me ask you this: When Jesus says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me", is He being judgmental? When he says, "If you do not believe that I am the One I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins", is He being disrespectful? How about when the apostle Peter claims, "There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved"; or when the apostle Paul insists, "For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity – the man Christ Jesus."
One God, one way to God. If we could have been reconciled to God in any other way, then Jesus wouldn’t have had to die. His death and resurrection clearly reveal the fact that there is no other way to God. And we are to clearly make that Gospel message known to others.
i bet you take the bible word for word...
i think the most learned and competent theological studies with whom i have had great discussions with quote a lot less scripture than you… maybe you should try it… it helps to stay on point…
he was more along the lines of the let-he-who-is-without-sin-cast-the-first-stone area… religious people judging another’s religion is shortsided and hypocritical…
you’re more than right to accept your view of religion, you can even tell me that you kow the only way and that i have to follow it or burn ini hell fire… but what you can’t expect is for us to listen, take you serious, or not make fun of you for being just as ardent as most “extemist muslims” are, just for a different “god”… however i only think it fair that if you want us to listen to you, that maybe you could actually have a discussion with us… but unless we get a reply in your own words, not text retrieved from a canon(which by the way way selected with a lot of political reasons, thank you Nicea) then its really hard to actually have a conversation with you that doesn’t turn into opening a page and looking for letter in red….
christianity might be the largest religion in the world… but since not even all the divided christian groups adhere to one standard ideology its hard to believe yours is the only way…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
i really shouldn't type while i'm with clients...
the number of typos in that would make my college rhetoric professor cane me…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
It's not
‘my’ way. Biblical truth is God’s way. And Scripture does help to stay on point, b/c it is truth. It also helps when seeking to understand such concepts as “he who is w/out sin”, instead of claiming that someone is being judgmental when talking about the Biblical issue of salvation.
Who said anything about “hell fire”? And who is ‘us’? I was simply responding to someone’s questions.
I just don't think it's right to claim that Christianity is "right"...
…and all others are “wrong.”
Because we don’t know. There is no empirical evidence to show that all Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus, or Pastafarians are right or wrong. We don’t know.
And what claiming virulently that there is only one way, and YOU know it, not only comes off as arrogant, but divisive.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Well
You’re never going to change his mind about this. In fact, he loves this kind of debate because it makes him think people are attacking him. Right-Wing Christians LOVE to think they or their ideals are under attack.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
What's sad is, I used to be like that.
I used to love getting into arguments about how my religion is “right” and others are “wrong.”
But then I met people. Muslims whose passion for Allah is palpable. Jews who truly, truly abide by the “love thy neighbor” credo. My Buddhist buddy who is so happy whenever anyone gives him an opportunity to talk about his beliefs.
And it really put things in perspective, you know? Who am I to tell someone that their religion is incorrect? What do I know?
I set a goal for myself about three years ago: no matter what I do, I’ll do it thoughtfully. I’ll think through both sides of an issue before I act upon it.
I haven’t always lived up to that, by any means. But I’m trying. And part of being thoughtful is appreciating that my love for God is not different than anyone else’s love for their God. It’s not better; it’s just different.
Aside from that, I have no opinion on the matter.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Ha, I totally contradicted myself.
Allow me to self-edit:
I haven’t always lived up to that, by any means. But I’m trying. And part of being thoughtful is appreciating that my love for God is not better than anyone else’s love for their God. It’s not better; it’s just different.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Only Jesus Christ
by His death and resurrection, can forgive sins. And Jesus didn’t just claim to be teaching us the truth [as do other religious leaders]; He claims that He is the Truth. He not only claimed to be God, but He proved it through His miracles, through fulfilled prophecies, through fulfilling the attributes that are unique to God, and through His resurrection from the dead.
Do you know a religious leader who has claimed to be God? Do you know a religious leader who has proved himself to be God? Do you know a religious leader who can forgive sins? Do you know a religion that can point to a specific moment in history and say, "This is what God has done for you!"? Do you know of a religion that tells us how God took the initiative to save us from our sins and provide us with eternal life?
That is why Christianity is unique. Only Jesus Christ [and no other religious leader or religion] has provided the solution for man’s deepest need [the problem of sin]. Only Jesus [through His death and resurrection] has defeated sin and death forever.
That’s why Jesus is absolutely trustworthy, and that is why He is the only way to God.
He said he was.
He had followers.
He performed miracles, according to his followers.
He has books written about him.
You’re setting the bar for God awful low, and I’m simply clearing it.
Look, we’re both Christians. We both believe in Jesus. I’m not here to discredit that.
I’m only telling you that by staunchly insisting that Christianity is the only way to salvation, you are coming off as divisive. We don’t know that Islam is “wrong.” We don’t know that Buddhism is “wrong.” We don’t know that Judaism is “wrong.” Or Hinduism. Or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We don’t know!
So it is arrogant and divisive to say that you do know, and that you are “right” and everyone else is “wrong.”
That’s all I’m saying.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
If all religions
point to the same God, you would expect them to say basically the same things about Him, at least in their essential teachings. That’s clearly not the case.
There are certainly some similarities, such as some of the moral teachings re. how to treat other people. Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach that God is our Creator. They also teach that He is holy and just, and that He has defined the difference between good and evil.
However, all other religions teach that we must ‘do’ something to try to reach God: pray five times a day, give alms, fast, take a pilgrimage, use a Tibetan prayer wheel, abstain from certain foods, go to church, be a good person, etc. In other words, try to work your way to God.
Christianity is different. God tells us that we will never earn heaven or deserve a right relationship with Him. In ourselves, we simply can’t live up to God’s perfect standards. Instead, God took the initiative to reach down to us. He became a man in the person of Jesus Christ in order to show us what God is like, and how we can have an eternal relationship with Him. Jesus lived a perfect life, then died on a cross in order to deal with mankind’s chief problem (sin) and reconcile us to God. He took the penalty of death that our wrongdoing deserves. No other religion or belief system can deal with that problem of sin.
You can call it divisive if you choose, but you’ll have to take it up with God, b/c it’s His plan.
That's not true.
There are plenty of sects of Christianity that require affirmative actions. Just because your local Bible-thumper doesn’t isn’t proof of what millions of others believe.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
If all Christians were like you
there would be far fewer Christians.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Do Jews go to Heaven?
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
i must have missed the miracle.
the books fo the bible were written decades after BC became AD… at most they are allegorical recollections. and they were chosen for political reason.
having an argument that is “its true ’cause it says it true” doesn’t work. i do think the whole “jesus is trustworthy” thing was hysterical on your part. christianity is only unique in that it has such low expectations as “believe in him, and you’re all good”…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
not taking a side
but he said to view god not “to god”
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right
It’s not a spiteful god, just your personal views on god.
only one way to God, and a God-loving Christian would know that.
I’m Catholic and I believe there is more than one way to god. You know why that is? Because there isn’t a shred of proof to the contrary. The bible isn’t evidence, it’s just someone’s words written down by someone else and interpretted by someone else.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
The Bible
is the Word of God. The evidence is overwhelming:
First, the Bible itself claims to be the word of God – II Tim 3:16: All Scripture is God-breathed… Then there’s II Pet 1:21: …for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Other verses: I Pet 1:25, Mt 15:6, Rom 3;2, I Pet 1:23, Heb 4:12, Jn 10:34-35.
Next, the incredible unity of the Bible points to the hand of God. The Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years by more than 40 human authors. The authors wrote in different places, and the Biblical writings were composed on three different continents and in three different languages. Humanly speaking it would be impossible for 40 authors over 1,500 years to come up with a story that all points to a single event in history. Yet, the Bible is unified – from beginning to end, there’s one unfolding story of God’s plan of salvation for mankind through Jesus Christ.
Then there’s fulfilled prophecy: The OT contains over 300 references to the Messiah that were fulfilled in Jesus. There’s absolutely no way that the Gospel writers could have manipulated all that, and their independent testimonies yet consistency of their message proves that they didn’t. Plus, many of the prophecies concerning the Messiah were totally beyond possible human control, such as ancestry, place of birth, time of birth, manner of birth, betrayal, manner of death, people’s reactions, piercing, His legs remaining unbroken on the cross, and burial.
Further evidence that the Bible is God-breathed: Often in an OT passage God will say something, and then when that same text is cited in the NT, it says that "the Scripture" said it [i.e. compare Gen 12:3 with Gal 3:8, or Ex 9:13,16 with Rom 9:17]. Or sometimes it’s the opposite – in the OT it’s the Bible that records it, but the NT declares that it was God who said it [Gen 2:24 – Mt 19:4-5; Ps 2:1 – Acts 4:24-25; Is 55:3 – Acts 13:34; Ps 16:10 – Acts 13:35; Ps 2:7 – Heb 1:5].
Hundreds of times in Scripture the writers affirm that they are recording the very words of God by using phrases such as "says the Lord", "declares the Lord", "God said", "The word of the Lord came to…", leaving no doubt as to who is the source of the Biblical text.
The Bible uses many other words or phrases to validate its divine authority. Jesus says that the Bible is indestructible [Mt 5:18; Lk 21:33]. It is complete [Ps 119:89]. It is infallible – without error and completely reliable [Ps 119:160; Ps 19:7-9]. It has final and decisive authority [Mt 4:4,7,10]. It is immutable – it cannot change [Psalm 111:7-8]. It is powerful [Heb 4:12]. It is profitable and practical [II Tim 3:16]. And it is eternal [Is 40:8].
Other key factors include the testimony of the early Church, the witness of history and archaeology, and of course the evidence of changed lives throughout the centuries.
The Bible is God’s Word, and it is completely trustworthy.
So the evidence that the Bible is the truth is...
…the Bible?
Watch how easy this is.
Qur’an 003.003
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Know how Muslims know that this is the truth? ‘Cause it’s in the Qur’an.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
I thought the truth was
in Battlefield Earth, or maybe Dianetics.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i dunno...
…its hard to argue with “i am he who is i am”… i mean, its infallible…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
I guess you missed
the “other key factors” paragraph. Besides the fact that the internal evidence is overwhelming.
So what evidence do you have that the Quran is the Word of God?
It says it is.
That is basically your argument. Jesus says that he is God, and the Bible says that the Bible is the Word of God.
Allah says that he is God, and the Qu’ran says that the Qu’ran is the Word of God.
That is your argument. Your argument is that a book is definitive and “correct” because it says it is.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
You don't read very well
that’s only part of the argument. The historical and archaeological evidence is clear, and every important Scriptural truth from the original text has been preserved intact in the OT Hebrew and the NT Greek manuscripts (there are thousands of manuscripts, including very early manuscripts).
Well kiss my grits!
How could I have missed that last paragraph! Let’s come up with logical, reasonable refutations for that, shall we?
…the testimony of the early Church…
Think about the Church. Ultimately, the Church makes money off of followers, no? Wouldn’t it be in the Church’s best interest to swear by the validity of every word of the Bible?
…the witness of history and archaeology…
That’s going to need to be explained to me. Archaeology? If I remember correctly, Jesus’ cross, the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail and essentially every important potential archaeological artifact has gone undiscovered for…um…2000+ years?
…there are thousands of manuscripts, including very early manuscripts…
Those wouldn’t have been found, say, after the Bible had already been written, would they? I sure hope not, because then you could easily refute them as saying “Well…someone wrote them after they heard about the teachings of the Bible.”
Look, I’m really not trying to debunk Christianity (even though I just debunked your arguments). I’m simply saying that we are to love our neighbor as our own, and by telling someone that their religion is “wrong”…well, that ain’t loving your neighbor very well.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
You debunked arguments?
Hardly. Though it does make me wonder on what foundation your faith rests.
And you sure don’t understand the concept of “Love your neighbor”. Has anyone ever loved their neighbor more than Jesus Christ? And yet isn’t He the One who said that He is the only way to God (and proved it)?
how'd he prove it?
you have faith that he proved it. other than that, you lack proof…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
Over 500 people
saw the risen Christ (among many other evidences). It’s funny how some people choose to believe most historical evidences, yet conveniently choose to disbelieve others.
No they didn't...
how can you even prove such an asinine statement.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
What
Evidence is there of that?
Please please tell me. Pretty please.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
i think
it’s more funny that “some people” refuse to answer my question about the biblical canon and its creation. but i’ve always had a weird sense of humor.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
mockery?
i think you are copping out. the discussion gets specific, you rhetoric and recited verses don’t my answer questions(since i’m not questioning you’re faith) and you don’t want to answer them. i think its weak. and i think it shows the depth of your knowledge to reciting verses.
if you’d like to answer my question below on canons and how/why they were selected, great. if you want to answer why the bible can be true just because it says it is, and other holy texts can’t, great. otherwise, don’t cop out and blame any of us for “mocking” you, when we merely are asking deeper questions than “why did jesus have to die?”…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
“his life isn’t miserable…he’s filled with the joy of the lord. he must be, because he’s completely devoid of logic and reasoning.”
Think about it…
yeah...
…must cut you to the core… seeing as how religion is devoid of reason and logic to start with i didn’t think you’d mind. there is a reason its called faith. and why the church has turned it into “truth”…
strong faith is great, but the righteousness with which you carry your faith isn’t so different from muslim extremists, who most ardent american christians think are godless heathens.
think about that.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
Listen
You can’t talk about “proof” with religion. It’s a faith issue. Just because there’s historical evidence that people mentioned in 2000 year old texts actually existed doesn’t mean everything else is true necessarily.
Have your own faith, and let others have theirs. I can’t even imagine how miserable your life must be.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
BG
his life isn’t miserable… he’s filled with the joy of the lord. he must be, because he’s completely devoid of logic and reasoning. i don’t argue his faith. just blind assertion its right because it says its right.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
its funny.
you even admit there are thousands of manuscripts, but don’t talk about the books that didn’t make it into the canon of texts that you so ardently hold up as the “proof of His truth and way”. the books of mary, sarah, and philip come to mind.
why is that?
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
I love it...
the whole my religion is better and more valid than your religion argument.
Guess what, you and your religion are no better than anyone else and their religion (or lack thereof)
I love poeple that think they have all the answers.
And all the historical and archeological evidence is far from “clear” as it relates to your beliefs.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Good grief. I'd hate to have you as a defense lawyer
Well ladies and gentleman of the jury, the case is clear. My client is innocent. How do we know my client is not guilty? I point you to the transcript of his interrogation. In 7 different instances, he most clearly states that he did not commit the crime he is accused of. I declare this an open and shut case. Move for dismissal!
I’m a Christian, but I would never, ever cite these paragraphs as “proof” of anything:
“Further evidence that the Bible is God-breathed: Often in an OT passage God will say something, and then when that same text is cited in the NT, it says that "the Scripture” said it [i.e. compare Gen 12:3 with Gal 3:8, or Ex 9:13,16 with Rom 9:17]. Or sometimes it’s the opposite – in the OT it’s the Bible that records it, but the NT declares that it was God who said it [Gen 2:24 – Mt 19:4-5; Ps 2:1 – Acts 4:24-25; Is 55:3 – Acts 13:34; Ps 16:10 – Acts 13:35; Ps 2:7 – Heb 1:5]."
WTF?? You are seriously asserting that this*proves* anything?
Or this:
“Hundreds of times in Scripture the writers affirm that they are recording the very words of God by using phrases such as "says the Lord”, “declares the Lord”, “God said”, “The word of the Lord came to…”, leaving no doubt as to who is the source of the Biblical text."
Are you truly so obtuse as to think that the proof of a document’s validity is that the document says it is valid? Really?
“The Bible uses many other words or phrases to validate its divine authority. Jesus says that the Bible is indestructible [Mt 5:18; Lk 21:33]. It is complete [Ps 119:89]. It is infallible – without error and completely reliable [Ps 119:160; Ps 19:7-9]. It has final and decisive authority [Mt 4:4,7,10]. It is immutable – it cannot change [Psalm 111:7-8]. It is powerful [Heb 4:12]. It is profitable and practical [II Tim 3:16]. And it is eternal [Is 40:8].”
More of the same. How do I know the Bible is factual? Because, in the Bible, it clearly states that it is! Duh!
Next stop on the logic train?
Circleville.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know, Brian
I love reading your great rants, but this LSB formatting ruins them.
Still, good stuff.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I need to learn how to block quote, but I'm lazy
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Shorter version of Brian's great post
Thou shalt not be a tool.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't
typically get into these kinds of conversations, but I thought I would add a little to this conversation. You mention the “next stop on the logic train” is “circleville”. My answer to this question is an unequivocal, “yes!” I would argue that all thinking and reasoning is circular. We all start with a foundational knowledge and build off of it (I am not working off a weak foundationalist framework, by the way). Obviously there is more to the tory than this, but I will spare you (and the UT game is on right now :) ).
However, as Plantinga has argued, is it so illogical to believe in other minds? Is this a “justified true belief” as many theorists of knowledge so vehemently want? In other words, do I have proof that you, have a mind? No, I do not. However, I tacitly aknowledge that you do. This knowledge is thus, properly basic. So then, is the belief in the Christian God.
I don’t expect you to just accept what I say; I am a Calvinist; unless God opens your mind, no one will accept it and we will get what we deserve. I have also lied with Hindus and Muslims, so I can appreciate both their culture and their religions. Do I happen to think they are wrong? Yes, though, I also admit to my humanity and my knowledge is limited. It all comes down to epistemic humility. This is what Kant so famously wanted in his Critiques. We all intepret the “brute facts” of life in a particular framework and act them out in their differance.
The canon is an interesting issue. I don’t know everything their is to know about the formation of the canon, but I do know that their were canons being passed around, which are the same as our own, as early as the mid to late 2nd century (the Muratorian canon, if I recall). Could you take it as an exercise of “brute power”? Of course you could, but then everything would have to be seen in the same respect. This take away the divine element first off, and also takes any form of charity, which is what Christians are ultimately to be called to. Also, one of my favorite quotes from the Holy Fathers, “We must hold to what has always been believed, always, everywhere and by all”. Anyway, I hope this helps, and I didn’t come acros in a prideful or arrogant manner, as that was noy my hopes. God bless.
Plantinga
Nice Plantinga reference. I personally think Plantinga is brilliant but his argument ultimately does not prove that the Christian God is the one true God.
I personally like framing it within the framework of Charlie Brown. Charlie Brown takes belief in the Great Pumpkin as utterly basic, which in Plantinga’s line of argument means it is proper to believe in the Great Pumpkin. You can substitute any religion or belief into Plantinga’s argument and if you are willing to grant belief, then it must be held that what is believed in is true.
The way he comes to this is completely brilliant but I, and many other theologians, do not think that it actually proves much in the way of objective truth.
I remember
the Great Pumpkin objection, but don’t remember what Plantinga says in response. The reason I presupposed the Trinitarian God, rather than say the Unitarian God of Islam and Judaism is a mix-match of not only Plantinga, but also Cornelius van Til and Karl Barth, along with much 20th century Trinitarian theology (i.e. Lossky, Bulgakov, Rahner, inter alia). Ultimately, the “presupposing:” comes from van Til’s use of Abraham Kuyper. Hope this helps.
Amazingly
4Him read Charles Krauthammer’s op ed this morning and decided to come here and be a parrot.
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???
In my own search
I found this Krauthammer article from a week ago. It was an excellent piece making the case for McCain – thanks for the heads up!
local politics
I would hope pretty much everyone has made up their minds on the big election this year but what about the others? Anyone have any strong opinions on Cornyn v Noriega? I think it is pretty silly that Cornyn is running commercials saying “it’s time for some change in Washington”. I don’t really know much about Noriega so I’m not sure of his substance.
Since I live in Arlington I’ve got Barton v . My big questions here are does Barton care about the environment and it seems he has a questionable stance on censorship?
Any comments?
Barton rules for his stance on the bailout
I don’t live in Texas, but you gotta respect the man for that
I hate Barton
for his wanton destruction of the environment. He reflexively votes in favor of heavy industry at every opportunity.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
links
http://z6.thevoterguide.org/a-dallas/race-detail.do?id=10003194
DMN voter guide
http://z6.thevoterguide.org/a-dallas/?sfr
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
One of the more bizarre stories from the campaign.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Will_Trade_Sex_For_Obama.html
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Obama was in Columbia, Mo. last night.
Considering I just graduated from Mizzou, I’ve still got a lot of friends there. They said the campus was absolutely nuts last night; something around 15,000 people.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
It is a phenomenon
damnedest thing I’ve seen.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
I honestly thought
the rock star hype would die down between the primaries and the general. And I guess it did a bit until Palin reinvigorated everyone.
It really is a campaign unlike any other. ’92 was bizarre with Perot, but this just crazy.
Also
I see the people getting all fired up for Palin and chanting for Joe the freaking Plumber as if he is a star. If the main guy on the ticket got half that attention, they might even be able to pull it off.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
No shit
I thought I was sick of Palin, Joe the Plumber has gotten on my nerves faster than anyone in history.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
its actually kind of funny to me
but yes, joe the plummer is annoying as shit
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...
this election isn’t Palin’s fault. Its McCain’s for being horrendously boring without giving anyone any real reason to vote for him.
I really can't think of any major McCain platform planks I can quote
Not like No tax cuts for folks making under $250,000 or whatever.
I’ve tried to understand what reason’s McCain has for voting for him, but as far as I can tell it’s “Because I’m a Republican and I’m not that socialist Obama”.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Obama's people boot Wash Times, NY Post, and DMN off plane
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Off_the_plane.html?showall
This is funny. The campaign guys will have zero influence in about 4 days, so they get to flex some of their muscle now and throw newspapers off planes and what not.
All three endorsed McCain. The Post is of course a rag, but the Times is a legitimate, if not conservative, paper in a major swing area (I’d argue nor more conservative than the NY Times is liberal). And the DMN is a real newspaper, but obviously what does Obama care about Dallas.
Disappointing
that the Obama campaign is doing this. The McCain campaign has already booted some journalists, and I think both campaigns should be called out on it.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I think it won't matter much
because right now, whether they want to admit it or not, the print media is getting more and more irrelevent. It’d be a bigger story if it were Fox, CNN or MSNBC.
I’d argue that Drudge is more important than DMN, NY Post, or the Wash Times.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Definitely
and Drudge’s monthly headlines about newspaper subscriptions dropping is his way of rubbing it in their faces
It does seem weird
That is the type of thing that can only look bad, which you don’t want even if you are pretty safe. That is why I think it is just campaign guys who are about to lose all their say in things taking advantage of a last few days in charge.
I kind of agree with DMN
its part of Obama’s running out the clock, and sitting on the lead. Whatever he can do to avoid a mistake between now and Tuesday.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i have zero doubt mccain would be doing the same thing
as would any smart candidate
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
The DMN's response.
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/the-dallas-morning-news-and-th.html
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
The comments section was pretty damn funny
Makes DMN’s sports blog commenters look damn near Einsteinian…
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
they kicked the DMN off
clearly obama hates the rangers
lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
the times is legitimate?
i guess any newspaper run by this guy must be
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Well
He’ll have to explain himself when, in two years, Israel hasn’t died under an Obama Presidency.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
That's just what the Republicans need.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Did anyone
Catch the wonderful Daily Show bit last night about community organizers? That, along with their interview of the current mayor of Wasilla, should be enough for anyone to spot all the bullshit that’s been said.
That was funny
especially that they found a community organizer who fits the profile of a typical Republican voter.
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The guy who was calling out the community organizers
was scary, but I’ve seen folks like him. I’m sure he is glued to the radio when Rush comes on.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
This is just strange
“If Obama loses it will spark the second American Civil War. Blood will run in the streets, believe me. And it’s not a coincidence that President Bush recalled soldiers from Iraq for Dick Cheney to lead against American citizens in the streets.”
And another amusing Drudge-piece
Biden “refuses to debate opponent”
for Senate that is…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081031/ap_on_el_se/biden_senate
A winning message if I’ve ever heard one:
“Essentially, they’ll be voting for a question mark,” O’Donnell said. “You have no idea who you’re voting for if you’re voting for Joe Biden in the U.S. Senate race. … We should not have a hand-picked appointee serving in the U.S. Senate.”
the whole quote re: question mark
O’Donnell said it’s difficult for Delawareans to put their trust in Biden because his votes don’t always match his rhetoric and because he won’t even be in the Senate if he is simultaneously re-elected and wins the vice presidency. If that happens, Delaware’s governor will choose someone to fill Biden’s Senate seat until the next election in 2010.
“Essentially, they’ll be voting for a question mark,” O’Donnell said. “You have no idea who you’re voting for if you’re voting for Joe Biden in the U.S. Senate race. … We should not have a hand-picked appointee serving in the U.S. Senate.”
Biden’s absence from the Senate campaign has affected O’Donnell’s own political activities. She was refused permission to speak as a candidate at a League of Women Voters forum last week because league rules state that if both candidates don’t appear, neither can participate.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
And it’s not a coincidence that President Bush recalled soldiers from Iraq for Dick Cheney to lead against American citizens in the streets
if there is a second civil war, i hope that either side can come up with someone better than dick cheney to “lead their troops”
“My friends Ken Follett and Susan Cheever are extremely worried. Naomi Wolf calls me every day. Yesterday, Jane Fonda sent me an email to tell me that she cried all night and can’t cure her ailing back for all the stress that has reduces her to a bundle of nerves.”
two things: one, when i hear the name jane fonda all i can think of is the song by mickey avalon (NSFW)
two, fuck jane fonda…
lyrics for those at work: jane fonda lyrics
o yea, and that song is most def NSFW
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I really want to see
Cheney leading in his General’s uniform.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
maybe mccain can fit into his old civil war uniform
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Civil War?
No. I didn’t read the link but don’t have to. There will not be a civil war.
However, with Obama up in the polls and with african-americans so proud about all this, I wouldn’t be surprised if things got pretty fucked up if McCain somehow pulled it out. Especially if there’s doubt about the process…in that case some riots and shit may happen.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Forget the race riots
college campuses would be where the real action was. I know some pretty mellow people who’d start going through their campus breaking stuff on Wednesday if McCain won.
heh
some of these are pretty funny
Spoofing Shepard Fairey’s Obama “Hope” Posters
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
Alan Keyes is on the ballot here in California
He must really enjoy losing to Obama.
Ironically, there are three candidates of African American descent on the ballot here (Keyes, Obama, Cynthia McKinney), and three old white guys (McCain, Nader, Barr). I don’t think yall in Texas are lucky enough to choose either Nader, McKinney, or Keyes. So I can see why you’ve probably settled on Obama or McCain.
The one guy I am really sorry I can’t vote for is Charles Jay. He’s in the Boston Tea Party. Yeah… its real
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party_(political_party)
Interestingly enough, I probably align most to this party than any other in political views. Next time Dustin/Black Francis has his “vote for LSB Political President,” I want to run under the Boston Tea Party banner.
was also on the ballot in TX (as a guy you could write in)
incidentally, what’s your opinion of the man. have been having some heated conversations about him with my republican friends
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I actually don't know much about Jay
other than what I’ve read about the Boston Tea Party. Really, its seems like just about every other Libertarian-esque type party that can’t get their act together. I’m a little hesitant to elect anyone associated with professional Boxing to run anything, much less the country.
I am seriously entertaining the notion of voting for a 3rd party guy though – possibly Bob Barr. I’m generally down on the Libertarian party though (their emphasis on drug legalization doesn’t mesh well with my research on the brain).
or are you talking about Keyes?
That woudl make more sense reading it. I used to enjoy listening to him in debates – though I’m not sure I would ever vote for him. He’s more the uber-social conservative voice that represents a contingency I think the republican party obviously needs to win, but I don’t particularly want dominating the party.
By now he’s really like Ralph Nader – a guy who’s a little extreme and runs for President every year. But at least Keyes won’t ever ruin an election for the Republicans.
Barr is on the Texas ballot
I think there were libertarians for a half dozen or so slots on our ballet.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Here is mine
12 California propositions and 5 local propositions (including “beer on the beach?”). I live in the one true Democracy, after all. Fortunately no judges.
I like that they give their job description
I’d be all over voting Daniel H. Baehr, School Bus Driver, for the State Assembly.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
I love that
I must admit that I’ve voted based on job description before. And sometimes you can have fun reading between the lines of what their “job” really is.
It'd be so great
getting a chance to vote for Otto of the Simpsons.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
so far
national numbers are good for obama today (compared to the past couple days.)
maybe it’s starting to turn around, or as some suggest, maybe mccain just had a REAL good monday
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
october/early november surprise
anybody think we’re still going to see one?
- Khalidi tape that Ben reference in another thread
- A Bin Laden tape
- A rumored tape of Michelle Obama burning a flag and Barak in attendance (I think that was the rumor)
- Something drug related from Obama’s past
- Other?
Anybody think these things would have an effect? I think in the past when these surprises were effective, it was because they played into the narrative. For instance, the Bin Laden tape that affected Kerry played into Bush’s narrative of terrorism being the most important issue (and the public for the most part probably agreed).
When economy is front and center, hard to think what the surprise could be? I think these radio interviews where Obama spouted alleged socialism were supposed to work towards that end but haven’t really done the trick.
Also, I think the number of undecideds was a little bit more than it is now and I think people are more locked into their votes now than before – with the spread being too much to overcome.
Still, I could see one of these non economy related issues biting Obama in the ass.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
or how about
(and i’m completely making this up)
cindy mccain not at a campaign event. rumors are that she OD’d on prescrip drugs. mccain, instead of being at hospital continues to campaign.
no surprise. and remember that while obama spoke and praised that guy on tape, mccain gave him half a million bucks.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
well
yeah, there could be a surprise for mccain but he’s losing – who cares?
i think ben is right that the tape might change the minds of old jewish voters – regardless of whether obama had a good explanation. he just might not have enough time to explain himself and even saying, “yeah, I’m friends with a PLO member” but so is McCain might not sit well. if he had enough time, he coudl probably diffuse it but that’s poitn of a last minute surprise – no time to diffuse anything.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
no worries
would the LA TIMES let that tape get out at this point? a month ago, maybe. not now.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
i don't know how much control they have over the situation
money rules the day – wouldn’t some McCain supporter offer a hefty reward for the tape?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
not gonna happen
the tape will not be bought.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
it got leaked, why wouldn't it get bought
i’m not really arguing. I could see it going down either way.
ben said it would be released today though (which doesn’t make much sense – release on Friday afternoon news dump?)
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I think...
I predicted on Wednesday that it would be released “tomorrow.” So, obviously that didn’t happen.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
IIRC
- A rumored tape of Michelle Obama burning a flag and Barak in attendance (I think that was the rumor)
I think a commentator made up that up, using it as a sarcastic example of something or another. Then someone just C&P’d it into an email without putting it in context and attributed it to the Washington Post.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
Not coming.
If it was going to happen, it would have happened on Monday. People need a week to let things soak in. If you do it now, it’s getting buried in the weekend. If you pull it on Monday, maybe 20% of the electorate will hear about it, and that will only change the minds of maybe 10% of those people.
I dunno. I’ve kind of been waiting for something, but I am almost completely convinced now that it’s not coming.
Kind of makes me think that maybe they HAD or HAVE something, but chose not to put it out there for one reason or another. Maybe they compromise was that they would instead go hard after Ayers or something like that. I dunno. Just thinking out loud here.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
i think if something came out saying that obama had drug use until the recent past – say the last 5-6 years it would hurt him and make it veryvery close
but other than a biden open mouth insert foot moment i think hes pretty ok
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
i think something international
terrorist attack, russia invades ukraine, etc would change it as well
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was going to add that.
If an international crisis pops up, that changes everything.
But barring that, or Obama claiming that he hates whitey, or Biden professing his love for hookers, this one’s looking pretty bleak for McCain.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
even then
i WOULD THINK that that would be more evidence that we need to GET AWAY FROM BUSH policies.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
if obama claimed he hated whitey how would that be evidence we need to get away from bush policies?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
replied to wrong person. meant to reply to you, not ghtd36
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
why would that mean get away from bush
believe me, bush had nothing to do with putin coming to power/keeping power
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
by knockoutking on Oct 31, 2008 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Re: "Biden professing his love for hookers"
Personally, I’m pro-hooker, and if you aske me, anyone that isn’t obviously hates freedom…
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
and loves terrorists and socialism! hookers, the ultimate in wealth redistribution!
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
Why is it illegal to pay for something but legal to give it away?
Some dude needs a blow job.
Some old girl needs 50 bucks.
Where I hail from, that’s called problem solving…
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Oct 31, 2008 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Or a
Bargained For Exchange, to put it in my 1l Contracts terms.
by brettgardner on Oct 31, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Biden could change things
He’s the most irrelevant VP nominee since Jack Kemp. He’s just there for comic support.
With early voting, I think the die has been cast already. Only something really big that would cause hard-core Obama supporters to switch would change anything. As gossamer says, those are the very people whose resolve would be hardened by an international event.
Only something involving his character would do much, and it would have to be both major and indisputable. An “Obama was drunk driving in 1993” charge won’t do anything. And a random guy saying “I saw Obama say X ten years ago” is too obviously a partisan hit job.
I just early voted
…at the Sub-Courthouse in Oak Cliff. Damn, in the middle of the day and the lines were LONG. It was a 45 minutes process. I’m really excited about the turnout in this election.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Straight Ticket
Democratic, of course. Voted for the new Parkland and there was one race in which a Democrat wasn’t running so I voted for a libertarian. It was for a judge.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
why not to vote straight ticket
An example of why you should not vote straight ticket. While this guy Price is a Republican, I am sure there are also many Democrats out there that do not deserve to be reelected or even elected in the first place. If you are not going to take the time to do a little research, please don’t vote.
Judge Tom Price has spent more than three decades in office – both in Dallas County and now in Austin. And for years, questions about the Richardson Republican’s work ethic have persisted. Unfortunately, Judge Price, 63, has not learned from past mistakes. His absences continue to accumulate, and his reputation continues to deteriorate.
Many in the legal community have pointed to his haughty temperament and outward hostility as cause for concern. But even more dismaying, they say, is the amount of time his office sits empty. This court – and all of Texas – deserves better.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
haha
If you are not going to take the time to do a little research, please don’t vote.
I don’t think you realize who you’re talking to. I knew exactly who I was voting for and I always know. I have my reasons for voting a straight ticket and they’re well thought out. The day a name appears on the ballot that I cannot vote for, I will obviously not be voting a straight ticket. But it would have to be a pretty bad predicament the candidate is in, because I’m one of the few people left who’ll admit to believing in strong party politics.
In the case you mention, it would’ve been SO easy for the local Republican machine to get that guy defeated in the primary. This is Texas and there’s not exactly a shortage of Republicans. You have to be involved at every stage.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
not directed at you
Even though I was repsonding to you, my comments were meant for general consumption. Sorry you were offended.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Not Offending
Mildly amused.
The last sentence I wrote in response is for general consumption, I guess. You really do have to know how the process works and get involved in it. It’s democracy. If only the people who are so disillusioned could make a bit of time to get familiar with their local scene and give a little bit of time (not even much), they’d be a lot less disillusioned and the country would be better off.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
in texas
does straight ticket include prez?
i never done straight ticket, and ain’t doing it this time
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
bush's
dui didn’t hurt him any.
neither did his wife’s vehicular homicide.
or his bogus national guard stint
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
love that episode of family guy...
…halloween episode, bush is dressed as second first lady bush and lois is a dismembered corpse:
“who are you supposed to be?”
“i’m first lady bush”
“and i’m the lady she killed”
“oh i forgot she killed someone”
“yeah me too”
“she did kill someone”
“yeah she did kill someone didn’t she”
“yeah she did”
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
it probably hurt him a lot
DUI came out right before the election – cost Bush the popular vote (and very close to costing him the electoral college)
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
jack kemp was no irrelevant
he was terrible and probably cost dole votes
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
hmm
didn’t realize that biden was running for reelection.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
If in South Dakota
the land of splitting President / Senator, votes Biden would probably lose and win the state at the same time.
Question – if Ben was in Delaware, would he vote against Biden in one ballot and for Biden in the other one?
The Epic Fail of the McCain Campaign
538 has a nice blog piece about how amazingly silent/empty/abandoned the McCain campaign offices are.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/big-empty.html
Its not even for lack of volunteers. They talk a few times in there how people would show up at McCain offices to volunteer only to find them closed. I know someone who went to volunteer in Virginia, only to be rebuffed because “they had it under control”.
Say what you will about Karl Rove and how Bush won in 2000 and 2004, but one of the biggest parts of his re-election was a complete domination of the GOTV efforts. But why follow tried and true ways to win as a Republican?
The vaunted, 72-hour plan that President Bush used to mobilize voters in 2000 and 2004 has been scaled back for McCain. He has spent half as much as Obama on staffing and has opened far fewer field offices. This week, a number of veteran GOP operatives who orchestrate door-to-door efforts to get voters to the polls were told they should not expect to receive plane tickets, rental cars or hotel rooms from the campaign.
That is from this WaPo piece linked to from the 538 blog
If I didn’t know better, its as if John McCain is actually trying to lose this election.
A Good Article
At 538 this afternoon. It’s been my point for a long time that the McCain campaign is just being out-campaigned. By a large margin. Now McCain obviously had some other structural obstacles to overcome, but I’d argue that at one time he was the ONE Republican who could have run in an environment such as this and still won. However, he fucked it up. Therefore the USA is only days away from electing a black person to the highest office in the land. A guy whose experience is indeed debatable.
It’s as if McCain wasn’t even really trying to beat him. I don’t mind. I happen to be a believer in Obama. I think he’s the real deal, or at least as close as we’ll ever get. But still it’s hard for me to watch a man like McCain, for whom I once had so much admiration, flounder like this.
Yeah.
It’s weird. Very unprofessionally ran campaign. This will go down in history as how to best lose a 21st century election. The GOP will hold it up as an example for years.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, what the hell is going on here
now it’s down to 120K and above?
Jesus.
And, now BHO says we are selfish if we don’t pay higher taxes.
What an absolute buffoon.
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
that's not what he's really saying
though it certainly can be spun that way.
i guess with palin coming to rallies today with michael jackson’s thriller we can accuse her of occult activities?
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
solving problems or buying votes? (btw, both parties do it)
when everybody’s got a little more money at the end of the month – then guess what? Everybody starts spending that money, they decide maybe I can afford a new car, maybe I can afford a computer for my child. They can buy the products and services that businesses are selling and everybody is better off.
So Barrack, I think it is great that you are going to not keep about $2000 of MY hard earned money. Um… when am I going to get it? Will it be monthly? Hmmm… $167/per month won’t get me a new or even a decent used car. I guess I could save it for a few months and by a new computer. Huh? Can you repeat that? I will get some of it after I fill my tax return. Well I guess thats OK. Hopefully I can pay off that credit card I paid off last Feb with my return.
I am all for govt take less of my and everyone elses money. I could just be better spent on programs that will help people in the long run and not short term.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
this post is awesome
I am all for govt take less of my and everyone elses money. I could just be better spent on programs that will help people in the long run and not short term
Seriously? Well then, congratulations and welcome to the Democrat party.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
How does Obama's
“income redistribution” help people long term?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
what do you mean
by income redistribution?
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
I'm sorry
How does Obama’s “spread the wealth” plan help people long term?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Sigh...
“spread the wealth” and redistribute the wealth" are republican scare tactic phrases. Call it what it is. He wants to give tax breaks to the middle and lower income class families and tax the wealthier families to fund governmental projects.
Giving tax breaks to those who actually need it does help them long term. Giving tax breaks to the wealthiest 1% of the population and large corporations helps the rich get richer. So they can afford that 3rd home or luxury yacht. I think they’ll make it without those things.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Do you think...
people making $250k are buying luxury yachts?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
Of course not...
but the top 1% of the population is not struggling Ben, and you can’t convince me that raising their taxes is a bad thing.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
You'd have even bigger trouble
convincing me that going back to the Clinton era tax policies aren’t reasonable and prudent, only exempting the lower and middle classes to keep consumer spending going.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Giving tax breaks to those who actually need it does help them long term
How? Better than job training? Better than preschool education? Better than a program to curb HS dropout? $50 a paychack and $3000 dollars in Feb really won’t help a family longterm. Some will put it to good use, most won’t.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
I thought conservatives
thinik it’s best to cut taxes and let people decide what to do with their money?
by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2008 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Generally that is true.
Govt does a poor job of spending money.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
Yes...
this government has, as have many.
However not all government does.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Generally it's true
Are you insinuating the government spends middle class money better than rich money?
I mean, if you’re conservative and trust people to handle their own shit, it looks like you’d be behind the Obama tax cut. Maybe not behind the return to the old high-income brackets, but you’d favor unequivocally the cuts on the middle class.
But, no. You expect that “some will put it to good use, most won’t.” Well, as it turns out, the wealthy sure haven’t put their money in a good place the last few years. They’ve taken a real beating in that crazy stock market. Lots of money is just gone.
I’d argue exactly what Obama is arguing. $200 a month and a nice tax return in the Spring for middle class families will stimulate the economy. While some may stick it under the mattress, very few will. They will either spend it or they will pay off debt. Both of those scenarios are good for banks/business. The idea is that wealth creates demand. Businesses work to fulfill demand, and in the process hire in order to produce/sell more shit.
Cutting taxes for the wealthy during a recession doesn’t do much for the economy. Since nobody is buying anything, there’s no incentive to create jobs or buy raw materials.
Of course, if the government weren’t already trillions of dollars in debt, the best thing to do would be to cut taxes on EVERYONE, budget be damned. That way you simultaneously create demand and businesses would have an easier time expanding and creating jobs. But if you have to go with one or the other, ya choose plan A.
by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I disagree...
3-4K a year will make a difference for many families imo.
You can’t say people won’t put it to good use unless you give them that chance. Perhaps they won’t, but it’s not your place to decide that.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Right
It’s the government’s place to decide how people use their money.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Nov 1, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Right...
there should be no such thing as taxes then.
The debate here is who’s $ is the government going to decide to spend more of via tax.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think you and
others may be missing my point. Tax refunds and tax cuts do little to help low income earners move up into the middle class. It helps them now but not permanently in the future. It does little to help children in poor schools ( usually in low income neighbor hoods) get a quality education that will allow them to obtain jobs with middleclass incomes.
I am not against the tax cuts. I like the idea of me being allowed to keep my money. But the tax cuts, credits , rebates or whatever else they may be called, won’t suddenly turn the poor into a members of the middleclass.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
I think the intention
is to up consumption to help get past the short term credit crunch.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
I understand your point...
I don’t expect the tax cuts to vault lower income class families to middle class.
However I do still believe that every little bit helps for these families now and it could help them better their future as well.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
i'm pretty sure that Obama
and the Democrat party as a whole could spend hours upon hours telling you about all the government programs they have in the pipeline to help people longterm. infrastructure projects, energy investments, job training programs…
seriously, are you new? what you are describing is called big government. guess who is the undisputed champion of such things (when we aren’t talking about war making)?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I'd argue
over the last 30 years, it’s the Republicans that are the party of big government. On average they spend around 2% more GDP when in office than Democrats. Mostly because they like to keep the military industrial complex hopping.
The standard GOP line is “We’ll cut taxes, and the economy will grow enough to make up the difference”. Of course, under republicans, Government grows every bit as fast as the economy. McCain is spouting the same old voodoo economics.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Well,
as I documented in another Post, Republican Presidents in fact spend a higher percentage of GDP than Democratic Presidents. Since at least Ford, its been a clear trend.
Ford – Carter ==> Decreased spending per GDP
Carter – Reagan > Increased spending per GDP
Bush - Clinton => Decreased spending per GDP
Clinton – Bush ==> Increased spending per GDP.
It’s pretty much like clockwork.
The only difference is that Democrats just pay for their spending then and there, and Republicans just cut taxes and run massive amounts of debt and let someone else deal with it.
After 8 years of Bush, he will have paid for 6 years of government through taxes, and put around 2 years of it on the nation’s charge card. Basicly, Republican Presidents have a history of fiscal irresponsibility.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i don't think you really believe the 120K thing
if you’re spreading it for campaign purposes, go ahead.
but i’m pretty confident that people over 120K will get a tax cut. I don’t think a completely taken out of context Bill Richardson quote is going to change my mind. Again, like your other quote, nowhere does it mention exclusivity.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
I don't know what you're referring to
…and I don’t care, to be honest. If you don’t like Obama, I would suggest you get to your nearest campaign office and volunteer to make phone calls on behalf of McCain. You may have to break in and threaten the people to let you do it, but it’s worth a try.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
You may have to break in and threaten the people
nah, i’m not a liberal.
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
Strange
These threads seem relatively peaceful until you show up.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
yeah
people on your side don’t like hearing anything other than what the mainstream media portrays, thus all of you get flustered and upset.
it’s okay…don’t get that way. just read/listen to the links and move on if you don’t have anything of substance to add.
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
No substance to add
Speak for yourself. I had a very calm discussion with KOK earlier. Too bad you can’t grow up a little and approach it the same way. Lumping half of the country into one giant stereotype is an ignorant thing to do. Have anything intelligent to add to JBI and tball’s discussion on media bias? Didn’t think so. Keep squaking your talking points and let the grown ups talk.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
and the sterotype gets even stronger.
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
Go ahead and wave the white flag while you're at it.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
That was a joke
Are you going to continue sitting on your ass and bitch or will you get off your ass and make phone calls? If you’re just going to post on the internet then that’s exactly the problem, Longhorn. You and millions of your Republican friends seem to be sitting this one out.
by Black Francis on Oct 31, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
what do you make of the new zogby poll
via drudge:
ZOGBY SATURDAY: McCain outpolled Obama 48% to 47% in Friday, one day, polling. He is beginning to cut into Obama’s lead among independents, is now leading among blue collar voters, has strengthened his lead among investors and among men, and is walloping Obama among NASCAR voters. Joe the Plumber may get his license after all…
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
"walloping Obama among NASCAR voters"
Uhhh… no shit?
What’s next, you’re going to say that more Larry the Cable Guy fans support McCain? Or Rush Limbaugh listeners?
we will see
what the other polls say for tomorrow.
i mean obama will still be up tomorrow by 3-4 points in zogby, but look and see if his lead shrinks in the other tracking polls. zogby has a bad reputation.
if i had to pick 1 poll to believe it would be gallop (since i’m cautious/conservative, i take the traditional poll)
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
nate silver's response
to me and other getting scared
via fivethirtyeight.com
There are a couple of significant problems with this.
Firstly, there is a reason that pollsters include multiple days of interviewing in their tracking polls; a one-day sample is extremely volatile, and have very high margins for error.
Secondly, the Zogby polls have been particularly volatile, because he uses nonsensical party ID weightings, which mean that his weighting process involves making numbers doing naughty things that they usually don’t like to do.
Thirdly, Zogby polls are generally a lagging rather than a leading indicator. This is because he splits his interviewing period over two days; most of the interviews that were conducted in this sample took place on Thursday night, with a few this afternoon. The reason this is significant is because lots of other pollsters were in the field on Thursday night, and most of them evidently showed good numbers for Obama, as he improved his standing in 6 of the 7 non-Zogby trackers.
Finally, there was no favorable news for McCain to drive these numbers. Polls don’t move without a reason (or at least they don’t move much).
So go out to your Halloween parties and enjoy yourself, and we’ll be back to covering the polls for you tomorrow.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Zogby
Zogby is a joke. His polls are done online. His polls are just as good as an AOL poll done online. It’s kinda funny how Drudge/Fox News is trying to spin this. By the way remember that we elect presidents on a state by state basis. CNN & NBC already has Obama projected to win over 270 electoral votes. Yesterday CNN projected Obama to win Nevada. The Republican Party probably has articles of impeachment in the works already.
Well
The Zogby Interactive poll is done online through e-mail. His other one is more conventional but has some problems.
by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2008 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions
3 other polls from today
don’t seem to show much movement to mccain from yesterday.
diageo/hotline – obama 51 mccain 44 (obama +7) same spread from yesterday, except both candidates went up percentage wise. that means better news for obama (above 50%)
rasmussen obama 51 mccain 46 (obama +5) actually a 1 point gain for obama from yesterday
daily kosobama 51 mccain 44 (obama +7) actually a 1 point gain for obama from yesterday
zogyby had obama up 7 yesterday, for a loss of 2 points for obama.
just have to see obama’s lead tomorrow. maybe zogby had a bad 1 day poll. i hope so at least
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
The poll that comes
out on Tuesday is the only one that counts. IMHO, he will win the national vote by ~ 4%.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
exit polls will be all screwey
because they can’t take into account early voting.
early voting seems to favor obama. my numbers may be off slightly, but a poll came out and in the poll they asked if people already voted. something like 19% did, and obama was up double digits in that. so i’m gonna guess that exit polls will favor mccain for the most part. especially when you consider that yes, he is tightening in the polls…early voting definitely favors obama seeing as how in most states early voting has been going on for a week + when obama had 8 point leads nationally.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
why do people get so angry about polls?
Who cares if they say one thing the whole time as long as your guy wins? Polls are nothing but a prediction. If I say “the Rangers are going to finish last for the next ten years” will you get upset? You shouldn’t…
Obviously “Obama way ahead” polls demoralize McCain voters, but may also take some of the urgency away from Obama voters. If anything, the “McCain has tied” poll will keep Obama volunteers motivated for 4 more days.
wow
8-10 hour waits for EARLY VOTING in georgia
http://thepage.time.com/long-voting-lines-in-atlanta/
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
maybe 35% early voting in GA
amazing.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
That just simply shouldn't be happening.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Harris county did a fairly reasonable job I thought.
I went to a location with a fairly long line, maybe an hour or 2, and volunteers handed out maps to another polling place that was empty at the time.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
That's impressive.
The line was really, really long when I went to the Oak Cliff Subcourthouse to early vote yesterday, but things moved along very quickly. I bet they had more than 50 voting machines in there. Dallas County was clearly prepared.
But it’s very impressive that Harris County officials knew what the status of other polling places was and tried to direct voters like that.
by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
GOP is delusional
Survey says:
*
While a sizeable majority of voters say Republicans have lost in 2006 and 2008 because they have been "too conservative," a sizeable plurality of Republicans say, it is because they have "not been conservative enough."
*
Over three-quarters of Republicans say Palin was good choice, while a majority of the electorate says the opposite.
*
Two-thirds of Republicans say McCain has not been aggressive enough, but a majority of voters think they have been too aggressive.
*
Looking to the future, a large majority of Republicans say the party needs to "move more to the right and back to conservative principles," while an even larger majority of all voters say, it should move to the "center to win over moderate and independent voters."
*
Finally, almost 60 percent of Republicans say "if Barack Obama is elected, he will lead the country down the wrong path and Republicans should oppose his plans," while 70 percent of all voters say they "should give him the benefit of the doubt and help him achieve his plans."
http://www.democracycorps.com/strategy/2008/10/the-republican-disconnect/
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Points 1, 2 and 4...
are why I don’t see Palin working for the Republicans in the future.
She can keep that 30-35% of the population that is the far right conservative base, but I can’t see her winning over mederates or independents. Obviously she has some time to work on her strategy, but right now she is as far to the right as it gets and that did help get McCain the base back but killed him with independent voters.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think the Republicans
seem to want to go back to the days where they had a small base and rarely won much of anything, but they could stay on the outside criticizing everything. That’s pretty much where they were in the 60s and 70s.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
I Remember...
…when the Democrats were swept out of Congress in 1994 and for 12 years after that all we had was Bill Clinton’s victory in 1996. The rest was a nightmare.
And I remember blaming it on the GOP having the richest friends and even media bias (it’s not so much what’s reported, it’s what’s NOT reported). Remember thinking that maybe Clinton moved the party a little too far to center and it had lost its grounding.
This is the second election cycle in a row that the GOP has been totally hammered. It’s really no wonder the average Republican is confused and pissed off. At some point they’ll figure out that it was eight years of a ridiculously incompetent President and a hypocritical Congress that did them in, and they’ll get their shit back together.
by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The key one to me
is the “Move the party to the right and get back to conservative principles”. I see those two things as being opposite, most Republicans don’t. The Republican party has been anything but conservative for a long time.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
What do you see...
as mutually exclusive about moving the party to the right and getting back to conservative principles.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I didn't say
mutually exclusive, and opposite is probably too strong a word as well. I just meant that these days most Republicans are not conservative except in the social sense, and all too willing to enlarge government if it means less separation of church and state. Oddly, perhaps there is a glimmer of hope that the Bush presidency will convince the GOP to return to fiscal responsibility. Realistically, though, they will probably only use that as a tool to paint Obama as irresponsible, even though deficit spending is going to be impossible to avoid in the short term and even a fictional President Limbaugh would have little choice.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't see how they're opposite...
or anything even remotely approaching that term.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
It depends on what you think of as conservative
if you believe it means small government, than the Republicans have been about as far away from Conservative as it gets. Social intervention, more spending on government than Democrats, unfunded state mandates like No Child Left Behind. Most of these are being pushed by the right wing of the party, and they don’t seem particularly conservative to me.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
You didn't really address...
what I was saying. I didn’t say that Republicans were conservative or to the right. I said that moving to the right and becoming more conservative weren’t really mutually exclusive. So I don’t really know what you’re talking about.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
moving to the right
right side of the political spectrum means less government control.
conservative is usually broken down into fiscally conservative and socially conservative.
fiscal conservativism generally comports with being on the right end of the spectrum.
in terms of social conservatism, the vast majority of the time, you would want the government to have more control to enforce your conservative social values. in that case, moving to the right and being more conservative are opposite.
but, i think the statement was pretty clearly meant to reflect people wanting the republican party to be more traditionally republican – fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
(insert Cahill Republican/fiscal conservatism joke).
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Which, you know, is why
I just backed off that term in my reply. Thanks for repeating your point just in case I couldn’t read the first one.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Fun with Numbers
I guess the overall premise of the survey (and the results) is that the Republicans are out-of-touch, and going the wrong way.
But, the numbers simply make sense.
3 in 4 Republicans say Palin was a good choice.
(Makes sense… she’s a repub… those surveyed are defined as repubs).
“Majority” of electorate say bad choice.
(Also makes sense. 25% of repubs + almost all dems = pretty big majority).
60% of Repubs think Obama will lead the country down the wrong path.
(obviously, or they wouldn’t be repubs… they’d be dems or at least independents).
70% of all voters will give Obama the benefit of the doubt.
(Wow… 50+% will vote for him. The other 20% would come from the (100-60), 40 of republicans from the same question.)
Large % of repubs think the party needs to go more conservative.
OK…
Larger % of electorate thinks it should go towards the center.
No S*** Sherlock. Wouldn’t all Dems and independents like to see the Republicans move away from the extreme right? So add them to the Republicans that don’t like their party moving extreme, and the Larger % of electorate that thinks it should move to the center is a pretty predictable result.
I guarantee you can reverse these questions (R for D, Biden for Palin) and get equally predictable numbers. They’ve taken common sense, and made it look like Republican’s are delusional.
by Oracle Galvez on Nov 3, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
McCain
hit a HR with the SNL appearance. He was great.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. But in the mean time, SUCK IT WESTERN KENTUCKY! 1-8 baby!
I suppose it would be the first time this election
People laughed with him, not at him.
His attempts at humor in the debates were ROUGH.
That was pretty funny
and having Cindy on there was a nice touch. Some nice digs at Obama with the plates, and the Biden doll.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Palin pranked.
http://www.tindeck.com/audio/filestore/w/wwdo-SarahPalin.mp3
Don’t know how the pranksters got a hold of her, but they did…… Thinks she’s talking to the French president. Pretty funny.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. But in the mean time, SUCK IT WESTERN KENTUCKY! 1-8 baby!
those guys have apparently pranked many european leaders
including the Queen of England.
you would think that Palin would know better that the Prime Minister of France wouldn’t make jokes like that, but who knows what these leaders say behind closed doors.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
This is a nice story...
http://www.slate.com/id/2188545/
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
shame for him
his timing is so bad that he is following the failed Bush Presidency. It would have been great if he had beat Bush in 2000. I think the nation, the world, and the Republican party would be in better shape.
Now he pretty much had to run this year, or be too old to run, and no Republican is winning the presidency this year, even against a candidate that wouldn’t be so tough to beat in any other year.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
interesting montana poll stuff
first i’ll say that i think mccain will probably win montana by at least 5 points.
http://www.pollster.com/polls/mt/08-mt-pres-ge-mvo.php
if you check that link out, you’ll see that both polls that include Barr, Nader and Ron Paul have obama winning.
that’s 2 polls out of 6, not sure if that qualifies as a pattern, paul will be on the ballot tomorrow. 1 of the six polls have any 1 candidate above 50, and that has mccain in the lead.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Watched the Rachel Maddow Show last night.
She had the Montana governor, Brian Schweitzer (spelling may be off), who is a very popular Democratic governor in a red state.
Schweitzer seemed convinced that Montana would be very close, namely because third parties tend to do very well in Montana. He cited that Perot took 26.4% of the vote in 1992, compared to 38.1% for Bush and 35.5% for Clinton. Ron Paul is on the ballot, and while he said that he wouldn’t reach double digits, he could get 8% of the vote, lowering the bar for an Obama win in Montana to something around 44%, which is workable.
Should be interesting, at the very least.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
Perot
I wish he had one at least one state. That’d have been fun in looking at old electoral college maps on wikipedia.
3rd parties
don’t stand much of a chance in our system. It’s kind of a shame, I suppose. On the other hand I guess it keeps us from being Italy.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
they pick up the random senate seat or on occasion governor's seat
that’s quite enough
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
Yeah, I just wish there was a party
for small government types. You got the Tax and Spend Democrats and the Borrow and Spend Even More Republicans. I guess I’ll just keep voting libertarians whereever they are on the ballot, which was around 5 positions in Houston.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
you can't ever freeze out the military like that
the military can always be sure that democrats will want to go on peacekeeping missions and republicans will want to go on warmaking missions.
your party offers them nothing
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That is why
Ron Paul was the only policitcal hope for America……
If Ron Paul is the only hope
we may as well start learning Chinese.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
obama's granny passed away
:(
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
sad that she doesn't get to see wqhat happens tomorrow
btw, reports came out today that California Republicans filed a grievance with the FEC for Obama using campaign funds to visit his grandma.
Republicans can’t do anything right.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
thing is
obama people can argue that he was campaigning too. not that that would make him look good.
but who cares? i’m sure obama can find the money to pay his campaign back if he HAS TO do it.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Now that she's gone...
I hope they reconsider that. Not that it was appropriate for him to do if that is indeed how he paid for it, but that sort of thing is just bad politics.
by Black Francis on Nov 3, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
how he paid for it
gray area. he took a campaign plane to do it. is he allowed to take campaign planes to go on these trips? I think if it really is a big deal, he should just pay off whatever exorbitant fee the Republicans are calling for (over 100K) but really, the guy is the first major black presidential candidate with already credible death threats against him. Is he really supposed to fly United?
I won’t argue that point that much. He probably should pay. Just a stupid stupid move from a party that has a pretty bad reputation this cycle for not being compassionate
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That sucks...
too bad she didn’t get to see what happened with the end of the election.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
What network will you guys be watching tomorrow night?
I’d watch PBS but stupid Dish Network won’t give it to me in HD and the picture is annoyingly shitty. I’m thinking ABC but am not sure.
i'll probably watch msnbc
if dan rather were still with cbs, i’d def watch cbs.
but i’ll be mostly on msnbc and switch to abc every now and then. my station is an ABC affiliate and we got serveral cut ins to do. i won’t be able to watch it INTENTLY, but hopefully soon after the indiana and virginia polls close we can safely call it for obama. if not…wait for FL and PA just to be sure.
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Dan Rather
Will be on HDNET or whatever it is, if you get that.
by Black Francis on Nov 3, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
all of them
NBC mostly if Russert was still there (maybe NBC anyway) but I think I’m mostly watching CNN. I hate most of the talking heads on the show but I’ve also watched them the most this election and I’d like to see their final take.
still, Fox and ABC will get some channel flips. Fox – will be good to see the spin. Would they be the last to call the election for Obama? Could do wonders for their reputation if they were the first.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
frank barnes predicts
mccain wins the electoral vote. we’ll see
even krisol sees obama as the winner
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
Barnes
is not exactly credible. He’s definitely a propagandist rather than a pundit.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
at least he's more credible than
dick morris
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
MSNBC and CNN...
for me, but I always like to flip it to FOX from time to time to see how they try and spin it as well.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
actually Brit Hume and the guys on his panel
are rather fair.
It’s when you go to MSNBC and hear those buffoons talk, but it’s typical ad nauseam bs over there…
ABC does a pretty good job too.
Tim Russert will definitely be missed….
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
and i like pat buchanon
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
+1 on Russert.
Election day was his Christmas, if Christmas only came once every four years.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
I'm going to a party
I figure they’ll have CNN on there.
by vfn on Nov 3, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
I'm having a party
Albeit a small one. And these people may not show up if they decided to go to the bigger one. I know I can’t go to these parties where there are a bunch of people. My friends like to drink too much and I can’t concentrate on what’s happening.
by Black Francis on Nov 3, 2008 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
I will be watching stuff on my Tivo
I have never gotten the fascination of watching a bunch of talking heads speculate on stuff for 3 hours. I’ll find out who won on Wednesday…..hopefully.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Nov 3, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
Mitt Romney 2012!!!!!!!
"God doesn’t step in and give us immunity from bad things. Otherwise, there would be no reason to cultivate faith." -TedFord
Will you be able to vote by then?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
yep
I miss this election by 3 months…
"God doesn’t step in and give us immunity from bad things. Otherwise, there would be no reason to cultivate faith." -TedFord
Ahh...
for some reason I was thinking you were 14 or so. Sorry about that.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
yea
that’s what people tell me on here when they want to discount what I say.
"God doesn’t step in and give us immunity from bad things. Otherwise, there would be no reason to cultivate faith." -TedFord
That is just stupid for them do
There so many other reasons to discount what you say.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by LSBUser on Nov 3, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
is there absolute truth?
"God doesn’t step in and give us immunity from bad things. Otherwise, there would be no reason to cultivate faith." -TedFord
is this gonna end up
being a reference to vodka?
"At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt."
-John McCain to his wife, in front of reporters
well
good luck to everyone.
Go vote! It’s your civic duty…
I’m going to make my one vote count for something…
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
Good hell...
Berman interviewing Obama and McCain is going to be “bad, bad, bad…”
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Wow
O’Reilly, Wallace and Hume blasting McCain and his campaign right now…
"He wants to double the capital gains tax, or almost double it," Huizenga said. "I'd rather give it to charity than to him."
Not necessarily surprising.
Say what you want about Obama, but McCain’s campaign hasn’t exactly built the best possible case for him.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
The real question on LSB at this hour
Who is Miles voting for?
He’s old enough, and he lives in Ohio. Not the #1 swing state. But swing state enough for all of us to be worried about.
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/mlm/probdecisive.pdf
I’m not sure if its been posted before, but Nate Silver and some econ buddies figured that if you are in VA, NM, NH or CO, the odds your vote (either way) will be pivotal in the election is about 1 in 10 million. Ohio – where Miles is – roughly 1 in 50 million, according to this.
That means MILES has a 1 in 50 million chance in determining all of our futures… this is worrisome….
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