Sunday a.m. things
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 10:50 AM CDT
114 comments
Well, so much for that BoSox/Cubs World Series.
Ken Davidoff says that Ron Washington is on the hot seat, because Nolan Ryan isn't going to tolerate much more mediocrity.
The Detroit Free Press says that the Tigers will talk to the Rangers about acquiring a shortstop and a catcher. The F-P says that the Tigers have had interest in Joaquin Arias in the past, and of course, they need a long-term solution behind the plate, although the article quotes Jim Leyland as saying that Detroit needs an experienced catcher, which would make Gerald Laird the obvious choice.
The Rangers are going to want starting pitching, and someone to keep in mind is Jeremy Bonderman, who the Rangers have supposedly really liked for a while, and tried to land a couple of offseasons ago. Clearly, a Laird and Arias package wouldn't get you Bonderman, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers targeted him. There aren't a lot of other real appealing choices over there...Justin Verlander is going to be untouchable, Nate Robertson isn't good, Dontrelle Willis is a disaster, and Armando Galarraga is (I think) a fluke, rather than a quality starter going forward.
There are a couple of recent mentions in the Boston press about Jarrod Saltalamacchia. In a Q&A, Nick Cafardo says the BoSox like Saltalamacchia, in response to a question from a reader about whether they'd go get him, but suggests it would cost someone like Michael Bowden or Daniel Bard. Bowden, I'm not all that fired up about, and if the Rangers can't get anything better than Bard -- a 23 year old relief prospect who BA has as #9 in the Eastern League this year, after a disastrous 2007 -- I'd be inclined to just hang on to Salty.
The Sunday Boston Globe also says the BoSox will likely look to add a young catcher like Saltalamacchia or Kelly Shoppach, who, ironically enough, was a BoSox draft pick dealt (with Andy Marte) for Coco Crisp a couple of years ago. Shoppach is also the same age as Gerald Laird, which makes him a different type of "young" than Salty.
The San Francisco Examiner talks about the possibility of the Giants dealing for Hank Blalock to play third base. The Giants have supposedly had interest in Blalock for some time, although I don't know that anyone should really count on Blalock as a third baseman from now on, and I can't imagine San Fran would deal anything significant for him at this point.
0 recs |
114 comments
Email
Print
Comments
I know you know more than me, Adam, so I must be wrong.
But Bowden for Salty would make me happy indeed.
by philkid3 on Oct 5, 2008 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mostly because I do like Bowden.
And I don’t like Salty.
I mean, I like him alright, but I don’t think he’s going to be better than Teagarden or Ramirez, and I do think Bowden will be better than all but one pitcher in our organization. And, obviously, we need pitching prospects a little more than we need catching prospects.
If we could get more than that from another team, of course. . .
by philkid3 on Oct 5, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the thing
This team has a ton of pitching prospects. You are basically saying that, if Bowden arrived here, he’d be the #2 or #3 prospect in the system (depending on whether you have him ahead of Smoak or not).
I doubt he’d be in the top 10.
I don’t see him as a significant upgrade over guys like the 3Hs (Hurley, Harrison, Hunter), and I certainly would slot him behind Feliz and Holland. And that’s without getting into the guys at A ball and below.
Bowden is someone who profiles as a guy whose ceiling is a #3 or #4 guy. And there’s nothing wrong with that…but the Rangers have quite a few guys like that, and giving up a young switch-hitting catcher who was viewed as a top 50 prospect 18 months ago for a guy like Bowden, when you already have several guys of his profile, doesn’t make sense to me.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also seems to have underwhelming stuff
and is going to be overrated because of the solid statistical season he had.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not enough
Not a big fan of paying premium prices for relievers.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's too bad...
…Because he immediately becomes the best arm in that bullpen.
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
B-R's "most similar by age" for Delcarmen...
- — Matt Whiteside
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even though Delcarmen struck out twice as many batters and threw about 20 more innings than Whiteside in that comp.
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah, that's a pretty silly comp
Delcarmen is a beast.
Though I’d have trouble dealing Salty for him just cause I’m a big believer in never committing major assets to bringing in relievers, whether that be by trade or by FA signings.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, when did age comps become the all-determining factor in projecting pitchers?
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who said it was?
It was just something I noticed and found amusing.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The all-knowing spurdynasty also has a thing for age comps.
We can’t trade Eric Hurley because he’s 22. We just can’t.
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I found this confusing ...
Clearly, a Laird and Arias package would get you Bonderman, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rangers targeted him.
by shroomer on Oct 5, 2008 11:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Should have said "wouldn't"
I’ve changed it now.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my question though
Do you really think that Bonderman’s value is that high right now? He’s 26 now, only signed through 2010 (and getting paid 25 million over the next 2 seasons), is coming off of some major surgery, and has only had one good season. The way I see it, there would have to be something else coming back than just Bonderman if we are trading Laird and Arias. I could see Detroit dealing Bonderman simply to get that contract off the books.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
You think the Rangers would need to get something back, besides just Bonderman, for Laird and Arias?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are talking about a team that needs those two players
Bonderman’s pretty expensive without a whole lot to back that price tag up. What do you see when you look at Bonderman? Do you still see him as that 22/23 year old who could be able to post 200+IP seasons with 200+Ks and a great ERA?
Arias I think did a great job of rebuilding a lot of value this season. If a team believes his arm strength will at least get to 90%, then I can see why a team would value him highly. Laird has a lot of value simply for being a catcher who is still relatively young, cheap, and pretty good.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman
I think he’s a guy with good peripherals and great stuff who hasn’t had it all click yet, but who is still young and whose contract isn’t out of line for someone with his numbers.
Let me put it this way…if it were Laird for Bonderman, straight up, would you have a problem with that? I’d see it as a steal for Texas, and I think must folks would perceive it that way.
Does Arias, who still can’t play SS (and whose arm is marginal for 2B), provide so much more value to that package that it really changes that analysis?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its a gamble
and one that the Rangers should definitely take given their needs and the depth they have in the MI and C. That is the beauty of depth is that you can afford to take gambles. But I think you are overrating what can be reasonably expected from Bonderman. For 12.5 million dollars a year for 2 more years, I’d want to see a pitcher who has had an ERA+ over 100 for more than just 2 seasons (I’m counting this injury shortened season even). You also would like to not trade for a guy who didn’t pitch for basically the last 2/3 of the season because of an injury. As for his perihperals, again, they aren’t that great. The potential is there, but there isn’t much in terms of results with Bonderman.
As for Laird for Bonderman, I would do that deal straight up. I just think that 6 years of Arias who has finally rebuilt his value and is that type of player that some scouts absolutely love is pretty valuable.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman
Favoring Bonderman but not the Nolan hire. Squint your eyes and it almost seems contradictory.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 5, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan doesn’t want to coddle pitchers.
Bonderman’s…never really been coddled.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 5, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much exacty did you smoke...ugh, I mean squint.
:D
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman
He’s got a lot of miles, and he’s got a lot of young miles, on that arm.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 5, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah
Yeah, I don’t think the Tigers have handled him all that well. But he’s also never had an injury problems, outside of the TOS, which isn’t really use-related.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how can you have a marginal arm for 2B?
That seems like an odd statement to me. If you can’t throw from 2B to 1B because of arm strength…umm….why are you a baseball player?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Oct 5, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you evaluate possible trades, you can't bias the two sides to opposite extremes
Sure, it’s possible that Arias might gets his arm strength back, and Laird being that young, cheap and good catcher, while Bonderman being washed up expensive pitcher who won’t be any good. However, you are assuming the best case scenario for the Rangers players and the worst case for Bonderman, and you can’t do that if you want to evaluate a trade objectively – you have to compare everyone with similar levels of optimism (or pessimism)
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying if the Tigers are interested in Arias and Laird
I’m assuming that they view Arias’ shoulder as not a long term problem and view Laird as a good solution to their catching problems. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be interested in a catcher who isn’t good enough to catch full time and a SS who doesn’t have the arm strength to play shortstop.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think one makes trades based on absolute certainty
Nobody can say for certain whether Arias’ shoulder would be a long-term problem or not. Detroit might assume that it will not be, but if they are smart, they will not value Arias as if his shoulder has no problems, which means they will insist that his value is lower in the trade (even if they think his value is higher otherwise). Same thing with Bonderman, just because his last season was wiped out by injury, it won’t mean Detroit is just trying to dump him (even if they are, they won’t let anybody else know that). Afterall, his peripherals suggest that he had been at least above-average in every season except his first and last that he had pitched.
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well now you are talking a lot about
how to negotiate. Any trade for Arias from the Tigers assumes they feel he’ll be able to play SS just like any trade of Bonderman assumes he is going to still pitch after TOS surgery. Though there is the big difference that Arias being unable to play short and being forced to play 2B isn’t the end of the world. And his bat is seemingly unaffected by the lack of arm strength. If Bonderman is unable to pitch without being severely effected by the injury, there is no real fall back option.
And his peripherals have been at least solid in the past, but the results just haven’t been there. This isn’t a 1st or 2nd year player. Its not a minor league prospect. Its a guy who has pitched in the Majors for the past 6 years. What makes Bonderman have that much higher value than Adam Eaton when the Rangers traded for him?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily
When a team assumes of feels something, it always comes down to a percentage. “I am 80% confident that his shoulder will be okay”, or something like that. If they trade for Arias, they are not trading him as a major leaguer, but rather as a prospect, so they will factor that part of the risk into it as well. Chances are, there is no reason that Detroit would be comfortable with saying that Arias would cut as a starter, at any position, they want him because they feel that he has a chance of doing so.
Yes, Arias can play 2B even if his shoulder remains problematic, but on the other hand, if Bonderman recover and is able to pitch, his value will be a whole lot higher than Arias even if Arias is able to play SS since Bonderman has already proven to be able to pitch in the major leagues and does not carry to risk of being a prospect.
When they traded for Eaton, he had high trade value as well, and if Eaton was able to perform in Texas even remotely as he had in SD, then the result would have been much less terrible. However, you can’t take a specific case as the general rule. Just because Eaton turned out the way he did does mean every above-average or average pitcher would become terrible when traded to Texas, and every prospect Texas trades away will be Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I left out a "not" in the last sentence
It should read “Just because Eaton turned out the way he did does not mean…”
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ughh, wrote this out once and accidentally hit back and lost it all :(
Well here it is again.
I don’t see the Tigers trading for Arias if they aren’t planning on using him this year. Whether its at second base or SS (they have the flexibility with IF to make it work out), it looks like they want someone to fill the hole in the IF left by Renteria leaving. Arias is cheap and 6 years from FA which is the ideal situation for just about any team trading for a player. Arias also is ready for the Majors. 2 years in AAA, 24 years old, a solid showing in his 2008 stint with the Rangers. There isn’t much left for him to do in the minors.
Bonderman hasn’t proven to be great in the Majors. He’s proven that he can hold his own in the Majors. There’s a big difference in that. That is why I brought up Eaton as well. Its not using Eaton as the rule, but as an example of why you don’t overvalue potential. It looks like you are still considering Bonderman the pitcher he was a few years ago when he was coming off his best season and Detroit was doing great. 6 years in the Majors, 94 career ERA+, has pitched over 200 IP in a season just once. And again, don’t forget that he isn’t getting paid the ML minimum. You aren’t getting any monetary bargain with Bonderman.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will go with your assumption that they are ready to start him
But having a team who is willing to start you doesn’t take you out of the prospect bracket and make you a major leaguer. Heck, the Giants started Brian Bocock this year, that doesn’t make him a major leaguer. Sure, if he plays well for an entire season, you might call him that, but there is no way that I would make the assumption that Arias would play well as a major league, everyday shortstop (or even second base for that matter). He doesn’t walk, he does have much power, and although has speed, doesn’t seem to be a good base stealer. What do you think his ultimate fate in the major leagues is? Our main disagreement is not on the value of Bonderman, but on the value of Arias.
Bonderman is a different story. He is NOT a prospect, and you will get what you are looking at: probably an average to above average major league starting pitcher. I don’t anticipate that he will ever have the season he had in 2006 again, but it doesn’t matter. If he can give me 170-180 innings of MLB average starting pitching, it would be like a younger, and better Millwood. That’s fair price for a league-average catcher + marginal prospect + 20 million dollars.
That said, this discussion is not about whether we SHOULD trade for him for not, but rather if trading him for Laird and Arias is good value. In our situation, however, we have no real reason to trade for him right now because of the state of the team. Having a league average pitcher at this point in the process is not crucial for us. On the other hand, a deal like that would be a good one for a team on the cusp of playoffs that need some steady pitching.
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just want to clarify my take on a few things
I think Arias and Laird need to go. I would love to see Bonderman here next season. I have never been an Arias fan even before the shoulder injury. I do think that he has regained a lot of value this year. I think that what he did in the Majors this year will have some team thinking he can be a solid MI with the potential to get even better. I think if a team is trading for him as a main part of the deal, they believe he is their answer to either SS or 2B. That might not work out (and IMO, won’t work out well for them), but that’s the risk in trading for young players. Either go with a FA or go with a young player with potential, but either way, you are sticking with them for a little bit.
Now if the trade was just Laird/Arias for Bonderman, I don’t think the deal can ever be a disaster. I do think that the Rangers lose on that deal initially. The gamble might work out, but I think you can and should be able to get another decent player in that deal. Even if its just a good relief pitcher prospect or another Nelson Cruz of the deal. I think to get fair value for the risk the Rangers are taking with Bonderman and the money they are taking off the Tigers hands, they need to get something else.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 6, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say..
…the likelihood of Arias’s shoulder getting back to 100% and him being able to play SS next year are significantly lower than the likelihood of Bonderman recovering from the surgery to address his TOS by next year.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
but that’s the risk/reward thing I was talking about earlier. If Arias’ shoulder isn’t near 100%, then he can still field and play a good 2B as well as hit (not that I’m a believer in his bat remaining as good as it has been). With Bonderman, if there are any complications, you most likely just ate at least 12.5 million dollars and gave up 2 valuable trade chips.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you think the likelihood is...
…of Bonderman not coming back from this?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no idea
there isn’t a lot out there on pitchers coming back from TOS. I know there isn’t supposed to be any complications and that kenny Rogers has done it with no problems. Still, if Detroit calls me and wants Laird and Arias and is willing to trade Bonderman for that, JD has to consider the possibility that Bonderman will have some problems with it and end up with damaged goods at a very high price.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's always a risk..
….when trading for a pitcher…
I think that the risk that Bonderman is going to have injury problems the next two years isn’t any higher than the risk of your average pitcher having injury problems in that span.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really see a guy that just missed
2/3 of a season as no more of a risk than your average pitcher?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given what he missed the season with...
…and his durability history, yeah.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is his durability history?
That he’s been able to make most of his starts? He isn’t exactly a workhorse pitcher.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems pretty durable
He averaged 185 IP over 5 seasons before the TOC, and that includes an age 20 rookie year.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
by t ball on Oct 5, 2008 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
averaging a little under 6 innings per start
isn’t signs that Bonderman is really durable. He has stayed off the DL pretty well, but he still hasn’t exactly been a 34 start/215 IP guy or anything like that. He’s been a good pitcher who has good potential.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you look at his history...
…and don’t think he’s durable, or at least has been prior to 2008, I don’t really know what to say.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he had durability issues
But there isn’t anything in his past that makes me feel like we’re getting a workhorse pitcher in return.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 6, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tigers' problem
is they don’t have much to deal, and they don’t have payroll room. Trades will be difficult and free agents must come cheap.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
by t ball on Oct 5, 2008 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
payroll
is one reason I think trading Bonderman for other needs makes sense for them. 25 million over 2 years is a lot of money to come off the books along with Rogers, Jones, Farnsworth, and Renteria being gone after this season (at least I doubt he’ll return on that 11 million dollar option). If they wanted to try and re-tool this offseason, and go into next season expecting more out of their SP, they could gain the payroll flexibility to make it happen.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they'd ask
for Laird and a young pitcher, but yeah on a payroll stance I guess it could make sense. Seems odd for them to give up a guy who’s likely to give them 180 quality innings or more.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
by t ball on Oct 5, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bosox want Laird
I’d ask for Coco Crisp. Cause, assuming his defense this year was rated as well as his ‘07 defense was, he’s a guy who could finally give us a real plus defender in CF, something this team badly needs.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 1:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What do you do with Nelson Cruz?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to whom?
I don’t think any other team value him as high as the Rangers does right now.
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Royals need a corner outfielder with pop.
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Cruz has more trade value than Junior Mayberry?
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it
Mayberry has options, isn’t as old, and hasn’t failed before in the Majors. I think Mayberry to KC is something the Rangers need to look into.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If not, what can you get for trading him?
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but he'll end up being a throw in, or a minor part of it
In which case, you’d probably do better trading Mayberry instead
by Telegraph on Oct 5, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who do you think
the Rangers would be interested in getting from the Royals?
by gordonrules on Oct 5, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The rumor is Greinke
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
by lonestarJon on Oct 5, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Realistically
I would think Cruz could get you at best Leo Nunez.
by gordonrules on Oct 5, 2008 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He meant as part of a package, not straight up for the Grink.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
** Bobs head **
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
by lonestarJon on Oct 5, 2008 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fascination with Greinke
…eludes me. Two years for a guy who is up and down; who’s WHIP is simply OK…I just don’t get it.
by FuturePants on Oct 6, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's up and down?
Since the whole “serious trouble with depression” thing got cleared up he’s been pretty damn stellar the past two years. He’s a high strikeout (8.14k’s/9ip) low walk (2.49 bb’s/9 ip) with a decent HR rate. His FIP’s the past two years have been 3.74 and 3.56, respectively. He’s really, really good. Is he CC Sabthia? No. Tim Lincecum? Nope. But those guys aren’t coming here.
Greinke gets masked somewhat because of the shittiness that is the KC Royals. They’re a terrible offensive club so he never wins, and, contrary to popular belief, they’re a pretty damn terrible defensive club as well so he has a higher than you’d expect BABIP. Oh, yah, and he’s still pretty young, too.
He compares pretty well to what Dan Haren was when the D-Backs dealt for him this off season.
He’d instantly be our best pitcher since… I dunno. Since a long time.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 6, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto, all that
And he did that in his age 23 and 24 seasons, putting up ERA+ of 127 and 131 respectively. This year he was 8th in FIP, 8th in xFIP, and 10th in ERA in the AL. And that WHIP that Mr. Pants poo-pooed (heh) was still top 20 in the league.
I don’t see any reason not to be excited about this guy. Unfortunately, I see about zero chance he actually becomes a Ranger.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
by t ball on Oct 6, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they'll deal him, either
But if they do, I think we’d be the odds on favorites. We have a super-deep farm system and have an obvious need for a studly young stud starter.
And did you catch this note buried at the very end of Robothal’s latest column?
Just wondering: If the Royals are unwilling to trade right-hander Zack Grienke except for a monster package, then why don’t they sign him to a contract extension? Grienke, who turns 25 on Oct. 21, is a free agent after 2010. The Rangers made a big offer for him before the July 31 non-waiver deadline, and the Braves have maintained steady interest. The Royals continue to say that they will move Grienke only if they are overwhelmed.
I had never seen that “officially” documented before. I knew we’d expressed interest, and I knew JD has said he was hot and heavy for a young starter, but I’ve never seen it stated like it is there that we made a big offer for the Grink. (Can you imagine if the summer had gone a little differently and we’d added Smoak, Inoa, and Grink??? Good lord. I’d be dead from happiness right now.)
Sounds like the Boy Blunder has expressed his interest before, so it’s probably a retty good bet that if the Royals decide to deal him that we’d be right in the thick of the bidding, cause what the Boy Blunder wants, the Boy Blunder goes out and trades beloved native Texans to get. (Cue the Chris Young/Adam Eaton flame-war…)
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 6, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Play him in RF or LF
Ask Hambone which one he wants to be personal home, then put Nelly in the other.
That kind of assumes a Byrd trade and a realization that Murphy isn’t very good. Either way we need a real CF’er in here, and fast.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Would you be willing to pay Crisp $8 million for 2010?
Because that’s his option for that season, and if not, you are dealing Laird for 1 season of Crisp.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming he's still a very good defender in CF (like he was in '07)
then: Hell to the yes. Absolutely and without question.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're jonesing for CF defense that badly, why not just bring up Borbon?
I don’t think there’s enough of a difference between Borbon and Crisp to justify trading Laird for Crisp and then paying Crisp 8mil for 2010.
by LiamP on Oct 5, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three reasons
1. I think Crisp is just plain good value for Laird.
2. I don’t think Borbon is ready and I want CF defense NOW, dammit!
3. Because I’d love to use Borbon as trade fodder. He’s got to look mighty good to some of the rebuilding clubs out there, no? KC in particular, if you catch my drift.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CF defense
Was centerfield defense really our problem this year? CF defense is pretty far down my to-do list.
by peachygbc_1 on Oct 5, 2008 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want plus defense at SS and in CF at all times.
That’s just the way I’m wired. Hambone was okay out there this year. He did a good job of keeping guys from taking the extra base with that man-cannon of his, but his range left a lot to be desired, imo, and it’s only get worse as he slows down as he ages over the next few years. I guess you could wait for Borbon, but I wanna start genuinely improving in ‘09, plus I’ve always felt like dudes like Borbon were more valuable as trade chips, and I wanna trade for a good young starter this off season.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A legit CFer
…would be on my wishlist as well; I think the combo of Boggs-Byrd-Hamilton is marginal. I like Hamilton’s speed, love his arm, but he still misses a lot of stuff, and he is the best option at CF, in my opinion, that we had this summer. That said, I think we can get through another year or 1.5 years without signing a FA at the position until (hopefully) Borbon comes up.
If Borbon draws a young arm, though, trade him.
by FuturePants on Oct 6, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd just as soon play Byrd in CF this year
And wait for Borbon in 2010.
"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica
by lonestarJon on Oct 5, 2008 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps you trade
David Murphy?
Start the year with Hamilton, Crisp, Cruz in the OF (still very athletic, good range, decent arms)… Byrd and Boggs off the bench. Not saying I like the trade – just saying that’s a possibility.
Murphy could bring in a nice young arm, I would think.
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Oct 5, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Byrd has established himself the last couple years
He isn’t going to be a bench player. Not only has his stats warranted it but Washington loves him.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Oct 6, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In any deal for Bonderman
I’d be willing to throw in Brandon McCarthy.
If Laird, McCarthy, and Arias would get Bonderman, I’d consider that a homerun for JD.
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
by tricer on Oct 5, 2008 1:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There's no way I'm trading BMac right now
His value is so low. I’d rather have him completely fail out of the league here the next two years then trade him for pennies right now.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You just dont give up on someone that fast
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Oct 5, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's crazy
You’re basically giving away McCarthy out of impatience.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
by t ball on Oct 5, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm basically giving away McCarthy
because I don’t think he will ever be a good ML starter. If the Tigers wouldn’t do a deal without some pitching coming back, I’d do what I could to make McCarthy the guy to include. I think Laird, Arias, and McCarthy for Bonderman would be a great deal for Texas. A really great deal.
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
by tricer on Oct 5, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is amazing...
…how someone viewed by both the stats community and the scouting community as one of the best young pitching prospects in baseball a couple of years ago should now be given away because he’s never going to be any good.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam
I’m sure that you have seen most of McCarthy’s starts since he was acquired by the Rangers. What are your expectations of him going forward? I’d like to hear what kind of confidence do you have in him? Are you willing to predict that he will ever be a league average starter? I’m willing to predict that he won’t.
And you act like it is completely shocking that a highly ranked pitching prospect flames out, when it’s not – that happens all the time. Heck, look at the 2005 list when McCarthy was ranked #49, there are luminaries like Jose Capellan (#25), MIke Hinckley (#29), and Dan Meyer (#43) ranked ahead of him. Pitching prospects flame out all the time, especially ones with underwhelming stuff like McCarthy’s.
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
by tricer on Oct 5, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what he's going to do
However, I also don’t think he’s really been healthy since he’s been here. If he can stay healthy, I think he can be a solid major league starter. If not, obviously, he won’t be.
I don’t see the point in just giving him away, though.
I also disagree with you about his stuff, but that’s a separate issue. If his stuff is really as bad as you claim — if he’s going out there with a mid-80s straight as an arrow fastball and two offspeed pitches he has no command of — then he’s worthless.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No point to give him away.
We already traded the future for the guy, so we may as well see if he can stay healthy. It’s that, or get nothing in return, which just makes no sense whatsoever. There seems no choice here: see what, if anything, he can do.
by FuturePants on Oct 6, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great!!!
So we put up with two terrible years from BMac and then trade him away. If it isn’t required, keep the extra pitcher! I would rather have both Bonderman and McCarthy, than trade McCarthy away and he miraculously starting pitching well.
Go Cubbies and Go Rangers!
by pbpsean on Oct 5, 2008 1:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman and McCarthy
Have some similarities, actually.
Both among the most highly regarded pitching prospects in the game before they made the majors.
Both have been somewhat disappointing.
Both involved in controversial trades early in their careers.
Both missed most of last season.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman
I’d rather talk to them about Porcello. I have a feeling Bonderman’s best years are behind him….
by jcir454 on Oct 5, 2008 1:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's like another team saying: Millwood
I’d rather talk to them about Neftali Feliz. I have a feeling Millwood’s best year are behind him.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Oct 5, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That may be true...
but theres really nobody else in the Tigers I’d be interested in, assuming Verlander is untouchable. Are you assuming Porcello is untouchable too?
by jcir454 on Oct 5, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's not untouchable...
…it is going to take more than one of the Rangers’ catchers to get him.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 5, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laird, Arias, Kiker, Boscon and Hurley
for porcello?
Remember, Texas wouldn’t be on the hook for his bonus money…
by laxtonto on Oct 5, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't see Texas doing that...
Thats way too much to give up for a pitching prospect, even one of Porcello’s potential…
by jcir454 on Oct 5, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way they would is
if they are absolutely desperate for depth and I doubt they are.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Oct 5, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aside from Porcello, the Tigers have a pretty barren farm system.
by oc on Oct 5, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On one side
it helps rebuild a non existent farm for Detriot and still keep their young core together to make a run in the future.
And Detriot still gets a starting C, SS and 5th starter…
Texas really gets screwed in the deal, unless Porecllo is the real deal…
by laxtonto on Oct 5, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Texans
Finding new and innovative ways to give football games away.
by LiamP on Oct 5, 2008 2:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So Nolan Ryan, won't tolerate much more mediocrity?
I would hardly think the state of Rangers Baseball this year has been the quality of being mediocre.
It’s been way below mediocre. It’s been rather pathetic.
by seasmurf on Oct 5, 2008 8:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Lone Star Ball
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
