EV takes on AJM
by mattrpav on Oct 8, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
Email
PrintLink on DMN Blog: EV on moving MY to 3B
I have to agree with Evan here. All this noise about moving MY to 3B seems to fit the 80/20 rule. We only get a marginal improvement by fixing the 20% (fielding) of the problem, but there is bigger chunk to be had by fixing the 80% (pitching).
I believe a team could win the championship with MY at SS. Let's keep the focus where it belongs-- on the mound.
55 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Flawed argument
Improving the range at SS can’t HURT the ERA. It can only help.
Yes, the pitching needs to improve — I’m sure the Rangers are aware of that.
But, why not improve that 20% when it’s independent of fixing the other 80%
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
Perfectly said
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Exactly
I prefer the 100/0 rule. Do everything possible to improve run prevention.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
Totally...
…let’s get better pitching AND better defense.
And a better 2-hole hitter while we’re at it.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
we dont need pitching
"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008
To: Luis Mendoza "Please die in a fire." LSJ; PLEASE
You own the Rangers
Would you upgrade the range of your SS to the effect of 1 extra out per game if it meant destroying team chemistry, diluting your farm system and threatening the return on a $90M investment in salary?
MY
Realistically, how long does the player expect to be SS?
Even Ripken moved, albeit at a later age.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 8, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Ripken
was a better SS than Young when he moved.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Exactly
And moved for Mike Bordick too, iirc.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 8, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Manny Alexander first
then Bordick after they traded for him and Alexander flamed out.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
IMO
MY is a freakin’ statue. Bring on Elvis, what the hey. But, while it is true that an upgrade at SS is independent of an upgrade at pitching, it’s not independent of salary structure and clubhouse happiness and a loss of minor league talent lost in the process. Perhaps it’s not worth all the negatives to score a positive defensive upgrade way before a competitive pitching staff is in place. I think that’s where EG is going with all this.
pitching
The argument to improve pitching before futzing with the fielders reminds me of last winter’s search for a CF.
That seemed like a move designed to help pitchers, as much as it was to remedy the actual OF/bat shortage.
SS seems like a much more intimate fielding position, as far as pitching goes. More of a factor than CF anyway.
If JD opts for Elvis (or even a guy like Hardy) it’ll reflect his desire to have the player grow with the young starters currently arriving.
Plus I just can’t see MY becoming an attitude problem.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 8, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The natural course of things
IMO, would have Andrus showing up for 2010 Spring Training with an undeniable skill set that even MY’s pride couldn’t deny deserves the SS position. I’m guessing that’s what the Rangers are thinking and EG is detecting, hence the company position being leaked is “why rock the boat until it’s necessary and much less destructive.” Everybody seems to be conveniently minimizing the $90M aspect of all this, too.
Because it's a sunk cost
At least, unless we can pawn him off on someone else without eating all of it.
by vfn on Oct 8, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Andrus needs to get an invite
next year. Not to make the team, but if you want MY to see what the future can hold, let him watch Andrus a bit on the field. That could make him much more comfortable for a future position change.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
$90m
For a guy who’s a clubhouse presence, in an org with so little depth at 3B, MY would appear a great fit at the hot corner even at that money.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Oct 8, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
how does MY to 3B
dilute the farm system?
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
You either
get a one year rental at SS, or bring up Elvis early, or let Arias handle it.
Who plays 3B if you don’t move MY there? The options for that are also bad. Put a butcher like Davis or Vazquez a nonentity like Metcalf, or sign a one year rental at 3B.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Well
The 2009 Elvis wouldn’t probably be a net upgrade considering his AA error rate, and you risk hindering his development at the plate. Arias can’t throw, but he’d be decent option if an offseason miracle rehabs his arm. Mr. Hicks might wonder why he doesn’t fire his GM if said GM suggests replacing his freshly-signed $90M SS with a replacement level guy. And nobody knows for sure if MY can play 3rd base any better than Chris Davis. MY could sure use a Steve Nash-like rejuvenation in the face of accused physical decrepitude about now.
One thing leaving MY at SS in 2009 does do is create one more last swing at him being a stat-producing MIF tradeable asset at the deadline and possibly recouping a decent percentage of his sunk cost. They may be weighing that, too.
In answer to your question above
(been away from the computer for a few hours), no I wouldn’t,and my opinion on improving defense doesn’t mean you get Young off of SS at any cost Now! I would take the long term approach (which is what I think the Rangers are doing) by leaning towards defense as a tiebreaker on draft day and in other player acquisitions with my up the middle guys, and making sure that a systematic approach to defense is in place throughout the system. For this case specifically, everything you’ve said immediately above is true.
You leave Young at SS until Andrus is ready. If Andrus doesn’t pan out you figure out what’s best to do then. But there is little to be gained from moving Young immediately unless someone like Hardy is acquired and you get Young to buy into it. You cannot replace Young with some spare just keeping the place warm for Andrus.
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.
Young will bitch for a couple of weeks
But I think you’re drastically overstating what would happen. With a better SS the team will flow better, and the “backlash” will be gone when and if the team wins.
by vfn on Oct 8, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a different subject all together
but moving MY to SS is independent of improving the pitching, which is what EG is saying should happen.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
nooo, the pitching doesnt need to improve
"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008
To: Luis Mendoza "Please die in a fire." LSJ; PLEASE
In case you haven't noticed...
…Grant has left his position as Kenny Rogers’ PR man and taken a similar post with MY. It’s amazing to me the lengths he will go to to defend this average player who is getting ready to be an eight-figure salaried player. I wish he would divert some of that energy into finding out just how Wash determines his batting orders, bullpen use, etc.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
I haven't noticed that
Can you point me to some examples?
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
"Kenny Rogers' PR Man"
WTF? I loved K-Rog when he was here, I was all for re-signing him a couple of years back, but Hicks refused to apologize. EG pretty much had the same feelings; just because he thought the team was messing up means he is running PR for Kenny?
In my opinion (which you obviously don't share)...
…Evan went way overboard in defending Kenny. A lot of it was in e-mails between me and him so it wasn’t exactly public.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
Nope.
I’m open-minded to the possibility that I’ve missed it. I’ve been busy, and I have a good deal of respect for Evan, so it’s highly possible. I just think Evan has earned the benefit of the doubt.
If you’d link me to it, I’d love to think on it.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
I'll see what I can find...
…I’m not the best “internet-searcher-person” but I will try my best.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
Here's something that I'm sure you read...
…his rebuttal to Hindman’s disgust at Young’s range at SS.
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/09/counselors-you-stand-accused-of-overanal.html
I thought this reaction was very defensive for someone who is supposed to be objective. Evan made some good points but to me he seemed to be waving his Michael Young pennant a little to much. Also I still fall firmly in the “Michael Young is overrated offensively and miserable defensively” camp.
Also Evan has repeatedly likened Michael’s offense to that of Paul Molitor and even predicted that we won’t be disappointed in his performance as a corner player or DH later in his career at $15MM because he sees him following Molitor’s career path. I think that’s ridiculous since Young’s peak years at the plate don’t live up to Molitor’s years as he was nearing 40, much less Molitor’s career peak.
And I don’t have the energy to scour his archives but in his newsletters he is always trying to include Andrus in trade proposals which I read as a statement that he thinks MY will be fine at SS for many years to come.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
Evan's defense was a little over the top.
MY wasn’t overrated offensively in 2005. However, since he lost all the weight he had packed on (I think he put it on one offseason pre-2004 or maybe pre-2003), his offense has gone in a decline, and his power is gone. He is basicly a slappy who can’t draw a walk, and I would have doubts about his staying in the .300s as he goes into his mid-30s.
I’m not sure you can shovel the substances into your system anymore like you could in the mid ’90s when Molitor had his later life power surge.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Maybe not but...
…I’m not sure that’s really relevant. Look at Molitor’s OPS+ year by year and you will see figures north of MY’s best. And since those numbers are adjusted you can’t put too much stock into what Molitor could or could not “put into his system”.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
Curious
Why you’d refer to Evan as a “PR man” in any circumstance? I don’t personally know Michael Young, but have about a seven year track record of strongly supporting him. (If you’ll take more time to research his career standing among MLB players, then MLB shortstops, then AL shortstops – and use EQA, VORP, or your selection of metrics) you’d find Young isn’t “average”, but something above average.
I do know, and have sat and talked with Rogers. Grant didn’t have to make any special efforts to ‘defend’ him, the situation was tipped all out of balance by ownership. And then hurt by Rogers’ thoughtless reaction to a cameraman (of course he shouldn’t have done that).
Anyway, Grant has opinions and sometimes they flavor his writing, but very seldom. I think he tries to be candid and objective. Imperfection in doing that isn’t exactly a capital offense. Maybe I’m a little off put that so much of this, and similar, discussions is wholly criticism. Yeah, some of it’s justified, but nonetheless, it gets out of balance.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Oct 8, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Except
“Shortstop” Michael Young has only been above average offensively. The Fielding Bible has had him as the worst defensive SS out there. “Shortstop” MY is also in a 4 year decline offensively and his last year’s numbers pushed much closer to average.
He might struggle to be average offensively as he ages.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Using ERA to proclaim that shortstop defense has no impact is fundamentally flawed
Those late-90s teams each had different roster compositions and talent levels on the pitching side from year-to-year. Who knows how much lower the team ERA would have been in 1996 with a better defensive shortstop than Kevin Elster?
I thought about tackling this post at BTIA, but decided against it. We’ve had enough MY defense talk to last us a lifetime already.
the focus needs to be on the hitters, our pitching is great
"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008
To: Luis Mendoza "Please die in a fire." LSJ; PLEASE
Please EABOD and DIAF
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
EABOD?
I had to google that to see what it meant. Funny.
It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin
please KYTHGAAATGOKYAALBNLGKJDBCHDKTWNP
"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008
To: Luis Mendoza "Please die in a fire." LSJ; PLEASE
I was so waiting for you to
respond to this. Your fav saying, surmised so succently!
:)
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
I got really excited...
that Edinson Volquez had responded to some random AJM comment.
EG! not EV
As for Grant’s article, seemed to regress pretty badly here. I think to make any sort of cogent argument, perhaps you should have taken into account what kind of pitchers the Rangers had when Arod was manning SS. Is it really that hard to look at a shit ton of defensive stats that all say MY has no range and conclude that maybe a guy with better range will only help?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
That makes a little sense, I guess.
But I wonder if old CJ Hater subscribes to theory that a lot of what we think of as good pitching is actually good defense.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Double plays.
How does double play depth affect defensive metrics? I mean, obviously a player who’s constantly playing at double play depth won’t get to as many balls as a guy playing at normal depth. Can anyone shine some more light on this?
Also, at what point does Young’s ability to turn double plays come into play?
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
Just a guess
But I presume that’s something +/- would take into consideration, given that it’s all calculated by their video scouts. Metrics like UZR/RZR/DRS? That might be more of an issue.
Curiously, MY ranked 26th in the league at turning double plays and made it to 6th this year.
by Joey Matschulat on Oct 8, 2008 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- The Citi Field All-Star game has finally been made official for 2013
- Brett Lawrie receives four-game suspension, fined for ‘aggressive actions’ toward umpire
- PNC Park security guard loses finger in struggle with fan during Pirates game
- Create-a-Caption: Partying like it’s 1988
- The Ron Washington puppet is watching you while you sleep — and has possibly jinxed the Rangers
