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Thursday morning things

Jeff Wilson has a piece up in the S-T about Nolan Ryan making changes to the way things are done, vis-a-vis the pitchers in the Rangers organization.  The word "coddle" isn't used, although Wilson does say Ryan wants to make the pitchers as tough as they are talented.

T.R. Sullivan does say that the organization doesn't want to "coddle" pitchers, though, and Nolan Ryan seems to acknowledge that what he wants to do is going to result in injuries to pitchers who can't handle the workload:

Ryan wants to stop "coddling" the organization's pitchers. He wants to start pushing them at all levels. He is trying to reverse an overall trend in baseball.

According to Ryan, pitching has become so expensive in baseball and so valuable that clubs have become overly concerned about protecting from injury. That's why teams went from four-man to five-man rotations and a mere six innings became the benchmark for success. Keeping pitchers healthy has been the No. 1 goal and the buzz phrase is "erring on the side of caution" when any physical issue comes up.

Ryan has a response for that.

"How many of our pitchers got hurt last year?" Ryan said.

With the exception of Scott Feldman -- the one pitcher they tried to protect from too many innings -- the answer is: all of the above.

"We'll take it step-by-step," Ryan said. "Will there be some fallout as far as injuries? Probably. Will it be drastic? I don't know. We still have to get it done."

Ryan's apparent willingness to accept "drastic" fallout as far as injuries go, as a result of making the pitchers tougher and not coddling them, is, at least to me, a cause for concern. 

Jean-Jacques Taylor has a column up about Rafael Palmeiro seeking privacy since his retirement.

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Comments

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Concerned also but

I am in agreement with the basic premise of Nolan’s methodology. If a few get hurt but we end up with some horses, so be it.

by JTodd on Oct 9, 2008 9:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I do agree with MJH central premise

that you don’t get anywhere without a farm. Even the Yankees, who are viewed as the big Free Agent team, relied on farm products like Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, etc. for their heyday. I think one of the reasons we have been so horrible in the ‘00s is the craptastic job Doug Melvin had done with the farm in the ’90s, following Grieve’s late barren period.

I think our farm is in the best shape it has been in since the ‘80s when we had guys like Pudge and Juan and Sierra on the farm, and hopefully we don’t continue to piss away talent in bad trades.

"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky

by DJCahill on Oct 9, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Injuries

I can understand not liking seeing leg/groin/rib injuries but those are easier to come back from. If Nolans new philosophy starts resulting in arm injuries then I want Nolan thrown out of the front office. I understand his frustration seeing Millwood having hamstring and groing issues all year or McCarthy and his blister. But if this tougher stance results in Feliz throwing his shoulder out or Holland fucking up his elbow I am going to be pissed.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 9, 2008 9:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If Feliz or Holland

throw a few consecutive 120 pitch outings, then get hurt – sure blame ole dumbass Nolan. But like he said, very nearly every single ML hurler we had this season got hurt without any help from Nolan. Arm injuries happen, and saying that Nolan is the cause of them before they even happen seems pretty stupid.

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 9, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Oct 9, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most of our injuries this year were nonarm injuries

By those I mean elbow or shoulder injuries. The serious ones that cause you to miss whole seasons not just starts here or there or maybe a 15 day DL stint. Millwood and his groin and hamstring. Padilla with his neck and collarbone. McCarthy with his blister. Those are things I think you can work on to eliminate or at least lessen. Some players may actually get hurt due to trying to eliminate those.

But if Nolan wants our guys to go out and be tougher and means that he wants them out there throwing more pitches and that leads to arm injuries then yes I do blame that on Nolan. Arm injuries can be avoided. Some of them can’t I understand that. But you can lessen the likelihood of some by doing things like limiting innings or pitch counts.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 9, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Well put.

Fun fact: if memory serves, Brandon McCarthy seemed to develop his spring training elbow inflammation after some sidework with Nolan. I have no idea if that could be related or not ( probably unlikely) but it’s worth throwing out there.

A Lonestar in California

"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica

by lonestarJon on Oct 9, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely worth throwing out there

What you seem to be remembering, that Nolan’s side session with McCarthy derailed his career, yeah I think that’s it.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Oct 9, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a great start to my Thursday.

WWND, TINSTAAPP, New 40 Trumps All.

Quit coddling them!

"until they are good, they are not good" - seth

by Chase Irwin on Oct 9, 2008 9:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

FWIW...

…a very good JJT read. He gets a lot of voices in there and seems to avoid judging/condemning Raffy for the most part. Worth a look.

"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer

by ghtd36 on Oct 9, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

one of the better articles from JJT that i can recall.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Oct 9, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what's up with JJT

and Bill Simmons both realizing they are professional journalists in the same week long span?

Nice turn of events.

by clark on Oct 9, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh

Someone needs to get Nolan in a headlock and explain that most people are not superhuman freaks like he was.

"You’re the only here who contributes schtick only." - brettgardner

by trza on Oct 9, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You know

The more Nolan Ryan talks about pitching the more worried I become that we have basically hired Dusty Baker as our team president.

A Lonestar in California

"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica

by lonestarJon on Oct 9, 2008 9:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Enough

Enough of the whining about the Nolan Ryan edict. Because of who he is, Nolan Ryan inspires the young pitchers to do what it takes to make it to the show. The body is an amazing machine and can be trained to handle a lot of stress, be it physically or mentally. It takes toughness and confidence to make it in the big leagues. Bottom line…if someone isn’t physically and mentally tough and resilient, how much of a shot do they really have? A lot of prospects don’t work out, it’s the Darwinism of baseball. What’s so wrong with pushing someone to get their absolute best? If they can’t make it, they can’t make it. That is all.

by maxzoran on Oct 9, 2008 9:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Let me get this straight

You’re saying if a prospect blows out his arm because he gets pushed to throw more pitches and innings, that means he’s not good enough to be a major league pitcher?

A Lonestar in California

"M’s fans are such weenies." - Zywica

by lonestarJon on Oct 9, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many more pitches do you really think they are going to make? There are a lot of smart baseball people in addition to Nolan Ryan in the organization, I think they can push prospects without completely blowing them out. I’m saying if someone trains hard and conditions their body, the injury risk goes down. If someone does blow out their arm, what’s the say that wouldn’t happen eventually anyway? All I’m saying is, lets see some results (good or bad) before going crazy and saying this won’t work. Nolan is a human just like anyone else, not some superman. He made it because of hard work and toughness.

by maxzoran on Oct 9, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitch counts

Its not just the pitch counts in games that worries me.

20 extra pitches per game * 25 (on the safe side) games = 500 extra pitches

Longer side sessions in between starts = probably about 2-300 extra pitches

throwing live batting practice = extra 1-200 pitches

So you are talking about over the course of the season an extra 800-1000 pitches. It may not lead to an injury that first year. But after about 3 or 4 years that adds up to essentially an entire extra years worth of pitches. It increases the liklihood of serious arm injury.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 9, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

increases the liklihood of serious arm injury

what are you basing your assertions on?

I could just as easily say that the additional pitching increases the liklihood of developing workhorse ML starters that can take the ball every fifth day.

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 9, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

I’m no expert on the subject but it seems to me that there are two correctable things that get pitchers hurt: Mechanics and Fatigue. If you maintain your mechanics and repeat your delivery then it shouldn’t make a whole lot of difference whether you throw the ball 3500 times or 4000 times in a year as long as you don’t get tired towards the end. I think Nolan believes that our pitchers were getting tired and this is a problem that better conditioning absolutely can help.

I look at it this way, people run marathons. They run 26.2 miles. If I tried to run a marathon tomorrow I would probably sprain my everything about 2 miles in. If I trained for a month I could maybe push that to 5 or 10 miles. If I trained perpetually year after year every day I could probably consistently go 26.2 miles and not get hurt, furthermore I could probably run 10 miles and not get tired. If you accept that pitchers get hurt because they get tired then it seems to make sense to push their thresholds so that they don’t get tired in the regular season.

by bushe on Oct 9, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

re:
Nolan is a human just like anyone else, not some superman. He made it because of hard work and toughness.

You do know that that whole “all men are created equal” thing doesn’t mean, like, athletically, right? Cause they’re really not. Would Shaq have been a great NBA center if he hadn’t worked hard and been tough? Maybe not. Would I have been a great NBA center if I had worked as hard and been as tough as Shaq? Hell to the no.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Oct 9, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but

if your mom reached up real high to get the fruit from the top of the trees then you would have been taller because she stretched then you could work hard and be shaq

by bushe on Oct 9, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats just stupid

If they don’t make it by talent thats one thing.

But if they don’t make it because some physical freak from the 70s and 80s is wanting them to throw 120 pitches a game instead of 100 pitches a game and they injure the most important part of their body for their job thats a complete other. Like i said above, leg injuries and chest/abdomen injuries are one thing. I agree thats something you can train to eliminate. But arm injuries happen. You can lessen the likelihood by doing things such as limiting innings and pitch counts at a young age. And at the same time you can increase the likelihood of arm injuries by increasing innings and pitch counts.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Oct 9, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agents

I’m just waiting to see if all the agents start freaking out. I can see them watching this with a careful eye. This could start making it tougher to trade for pitchers. And not just the major leaguers but minor leaguers too. If a particular agent has a few players with one team, I could see that agent flexing his muscles to prevent his minor league clients in that organization from being traded to the Rangers as well.

Nothing pithy here. Please move long.

by WyoRanger on Oct 9, 2008 10:08 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

considering our history

wouldn’t a good agent already do everything in his power to keep his clients from pitching here, Ryan inspired changes or not?

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 9, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we're overreacting

Ryan is asking the pitchers to work harder to stay in top shape. That’s good.

One positive I took from the Sullivan article: A few weeks ago it seemed like he was calling out the coaches and instructors for not getting with the program and that some might be gone if they don’t buy in. In this article it was obvious he was talking about the pitchers themselves and not the coaches. He did not say that any pitcher not doing exactly what he wants would be gone, but made the expectation clear that these guys are all expected to get with the program. I don’t have a problem with that.

But I think we’re still overreacting. I don’t see anything here saying that Ryan expects managers and coaches to abuse pitchers. They will still be the ones making the day to day, in-game decisions about how pitcher usage. Ryan wants pitchers to work harder, stay in shape, and try to pitch more innings. He’s not saying you’re going out there even if your arm is falling off.

The sky is not falling.

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.

by t ball on Oct 9, 2008 10:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well said

I think Derek Holland is kind of proof that hard work can pay off. In the article that shroom posted in a fanshot a while back, Holland said he would run timed sprints from one foul pole to the other, and he maintained a heavy workout routine which helped him add 15 lbs of muscle over the course of the season. Hopefully other pitchers in the system can pick up similar workout routines if they haven’t already.

by jcir454 on Oct 9, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Over the last few years

It seems our pitchers have been overcome with what I like to call vaginitus. They show up out of shape and then fall victim to myriad injuries, some legit but most preventable, throughout the season. At no point have I seen Ryan say something like “We expect our pitchers to go out there every game and throw 120 pitches, like the good ole days.” He just seems to want them to show up to camp in better shape and retain that extra stamina throughout the year.

by clark on Oct 9, 2008 10:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

cue up nasal girly voice

“but what if they hurt their arm, but what if they hurt their arm?”

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 9, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I won't look it up

but i would have to think we witnessed the most DL days from our pitching staff in all of baseball last year. And now that we have someone who issued an org wide decree asking that all of our pitchers get into better shape, which is almost guarenteed to reduce injury risk, people are freaking out. “OMG! What if Doug Mathis or Kason Gabbard or (insert the name of almost any pitcher on our 40 man roster) injure themselves next year?” How would that differ from any other year?

A little extra jogging and long toss and a few extra bullpen sessions will not leave our blessed minor league pitching inventory in ruins. Trust me.

by clark on Oct 9, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To play devil's advocate

You cannot chalk up all of the injuries to vagina imitation. There is most certainly just some plain bad luck at work here, and bad mechanics are to blame for way more injuries than poor conditioning. Many are not doing enough, and everyone can try a little harder to stay in shape. This is good for injury prevention, but also for dealing with Texas summers.

But this has to be done with great care. More reps of bad mechanics is not a good thing. The pitching coach hire is extremely important.

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.

by t ball on Oct 9, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan: You say Kiker is a +132 talent? By what metric?
Adair: VAG +

by shroomer on Oct 9, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

VAG+ would be...

…park adjusted correct? Because otherwise it’s a useless stat.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Value Above Girlie-man

Just in case the chick LSB’ers ask …

by shroomer on Oct 9, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They might bristle at "Girlie" so...

…we should tell them it stands for Value-Added-Grit and that David Eckstein and Darin Erstad fight it out for the league lead every year.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah

We all know Erstad would punt to Ecks

by bushe on Oct 9, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

FJM couldn't have...

…put it better. Congrats.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Park adjusted VAG

some parks have grooming issues.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 9, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec that...

…and insert rim shot.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

checking back

i must say i like where this ended up.

by clark on Oct 9, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And another thing

letting that grass grow would probably slow balls down.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 9, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

But "tall grass"

is icky.

Oh sorry, I was on the previous subject…

;)

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2

by Rodney on Oct 9, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But good grass

is sticky.

"until they are good, they are not good" - seth

by Chase Irwin on Oct 9, 2008 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha + 420

Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08

by LAMuscleFag on Oct 9, 2008 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Put me in coach

I’m ready to play.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Oct 9, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan

I think he is taking the right approach. He needs to come off as a hard ass to get the players attention and to get them motivated to pick it up. At the same time, he is not an idiot and won’t blow up an arm to make a point. This organization needs a ‘shock’ when it comes to pitching, and I think this is a good approach to managing the situation.

I think AJM and some of the other Nolan doubters aren’t giving him enough credit for how pragmatic he is.

by mattrpav on Oct 9, 2008 10:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i have a question

anyone look at the “japanese model” for this kind of stuff? streching out arms, throwing longer/more often/deeper into games, etc?

because if they havent, they should.

and what are the odds cogburn (the pacific rim scout/fmr bullpen coach) knows anything about it?

"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich

by knockoutking on Oct 9, 2008 11:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Rooster Cogburn?

(Cue Greggo voice): Didn’t he die?

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unbelievable. A JJT column about baseball...

…that didn’t make me want to see him fired.

Not a great article but it wasn’t chock full of the normal poor baseball opinions.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 11:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that the

“get tough” aspects of these articles and comments are mostly PR salve to the general Ranger fandom. They have heard recently that there will be no management changes, the Rangers will “stick to the plan”, and that payroll will not change. I support this course of action, but I think it would be foolhardy for the Rangers not to interject some feeling that change will happen on the field. Most of these fans respect Nolan and are comforted that he will have a say. There’s no reason for those of us who follow things closer to feel that the average fan should have a different point of view.
And its yet to be completely determined what form the changes will take and how successful they will be.

by mcgee48c on Oct 9, 2008 12:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting theory...

…and I hope you are right. I have to admit that even though I was a HUGE Nolan Ryan mark as a kid (going back to his Angels days) I have a great fear of people just blindly following him and trusting his judgment.

It’s one thing if Joe Average Fan does that and it could even have some tangible benefits if the young pitchers look up to him but I really hope he doesn’t take the wheel of this thing and steer it into a ditch.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this thing is already in the ditch

some steering is desperately needed.

"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve

by tricer on Oct 9, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Different steering...

…is no guarantee of better steering.

I like where this club is going forward at least in terms of talent in the minor leagues. I would hate to see that negatively impacted by an organizational head that was attempting to mold pitchers in his own image.

In my opinion Nolan Ryan was not just a freak of nature but a once-in-a-generation physical talent. To assume that what worked for him will work on a majority of our young arms could be disastrous.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Oct 9, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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