Nolan Ryan, Daisuke Matsuzaka and "coddling"
With all of the current talk about Nolan Ryan and the fact that he wants to stop the current trend of overly protecting pitchers from injury, are there any of the current MLB teams/front offices who have looked at Japan and how they handle pitchers. I know that when Dice-K came over there was a lot of talk about if the Red Sox would attempt to restructure his pitching routine (and IIRC they did not until this past off-season) in order to "protect the investment" or "keep him healthy" - however in the end they decided to let him use his own routine in order to maybe let him get acclimated to the United States, etc.
Now that he got hurt, IIRC over the offseason or since he recently was hurt they have changed it to a more normalized program, compared to MLB pitchers.
Anyway, evidently Nolan wants to make the pitchers as tough as they are talented and stretch them out (at all levels of the farm)…
I guess my main question is this: as far anyone knows, have any Major League (or Indy League or any League in general) looked at pitchers and their routines in Japan?
If so has anything been carried over from Japan to the US? Compared to United States/MLB pitchers, are Japanese/NPB pitchers more or less likely to get hurt/be injured (be it TJ surgery, shoulder surgery, labrum surgery, etc)?
Is there any reason that a team WOULDNT look at the Japanese program regarding pitching? (I presume the only reason not to is the fear of injury, as a result of how much money is spent on draft picks/FA signings)
Do pitchers who make the switch from the US to Japan fair? Do they make the change to the NPB pitching program? Do they keep their own?
I understand the pipeline for baseball is different there (MUCH more time spent with your high school team, longer season, etc) but the idea there seems to be you throw a lot at a younger age, building on it as you advance in the ranks to the professional level and a lot more focus on endurance (look at the Dice-K workout below) - from distance thrown to number of pitches thrown on off-day and during bullpens to lack of weight training and more of a focus on cardio.
Another question: Is this something that you think should be considered when it comes to the Rangers system (if not the high pitch counts, the focus on endurance as stated above (more pitches on off days, more focus on cardio)?
info about Matsuzaka and his younger/developmental years:
Functional Path Trath (fmr Chicago White Sox trainer): http://tinyurl.com/3jxxey (interesting read)
when he was younger he would throw ~1000 pitches/week http://tinyurl.com/3ee95o
He tossed 72 complete games between 1999 and 2006, 30 more than big-league leader Randy Johnson during the same span" - " He effortlessly throws 300 feet; most pitchers top out at 200. His first spring-training long-toss session nearly put Red Sox pitching coach John Farrell in a sling. The right-hander has been known to long-toss during pre-game introductions and throw in the bull pen after his starts, both of which are simply unheard of in the majors."
"One day before Boston beat Toronto May 9, Matsuzaka threw 109 pitches in the bull pen." - "Indeed, while his rigorous throwing habits make him an anomaly in the U.S., they're actually quite normal in Asia, particularly Japan, where exercising to exhaustion is considered a virtue. Matsuzaka was raised in a baseball culture that thinks nothing of following a 150-pitch start with three straight 150-pitch bull pen sessions prior to the next start"
"The Red Sox tried selling Matsuzaka on weight training, but beyond simple rotator cuff exercises, he'd rather run and throw 100 pitches in the bull pen than do squats or bench presses. The practice helps him maintain superb mechanics, which lessens the strain on his arm."
from: Mens Fitness, Aug 2007
"He said that during his 17-inning epic he was never concerned about injuring himself. “In a sense, I had been trained to throw many, many pitches,” he said." - "
from: http://tinyurl.com/3ndglp (also said he threw 250 pitches/day when younger)
"Japanese pitchers in general have more pitches and better control than Americans. They practice a lot more, starting in Jr. High School and High School where it's required to practice 11 months a year. Japanese have turned baseball into a martial art."
-Robert Whiting (noted Japanese Baseball author/follower)
**Update**
I emailed Will Carroll with basically this fanpost + a little more and here were his reponses:
Will Carroll:
"The Japanese routines have been looked at and generally rejected. You'd need to start at much lower levels to make it work. Why not? Higher incidence of arm injury, shorter careers, and fewer talented pitchers. "
sounds like the second comment below
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I remember reading an article
about Matsuzaka when he came over. It also included quotes from Aki about the difference between pitching in Japan and pitching in the states. As I recall, Aki basically said that their training regimen ensured that you either worked out all the kinks in your delivery, or that you were a total bust because you couldn’t keep up.
I think operating on that sentiment (if my memory is accurate) is pretty dumb. Maybe it’ll produce some indestructible phenoms, but is it really necessary to ruin the careers of everyone else, rather than adjusting their training methods and using them differently in games?
My assumption would be...
that under such a rigorous program…that as a pitcher, you would be significantly better during a peak period of years, but that a pitcher’s career overall would be shorter.
I think that pitchers would maintain peak stats and talent for a number of years (10-12) but with shorter careers (breaking down around ages 33-35).
Ultimately, you’d be a better pitcher, but you’d not be able to pitch until you were 40 years old.
I'd love for part of the "new look" to be a return to the red uniforms of the 1990s. - Ian Kinsler
Consistent with that idea
A good friend of mine is a world-class marathoner. When he isn’t injured, he runs more than 100 miles per week. While he was in his twenties, he was injured no more than 10% of the time. His injury rate has climbed every year since he turned 30 to the point that when he was 35, he couldn’t train for more than 20 weeks per year. By all accounts, this guy is an excellent athlete who is about as tough as they come. But injuries induced by excessive wear have piled up to the point that he can no longer compete.
Matsuzaka's routine
was changed from Day 1. I remember the panic from the Boston managment and coaches when he threw a 100 pitch bullpen (they cut him off at 100 pitches) in the first week of his first spring training.
im pretty sure that overall they left him to do his thing
Matsuzaka was raised in a baseball culture that thinks nothing of following a 150-pitch start with three straight 150-pitch bull pen sessions prior to the next start. The Red Sox have convinced him to follow the U.S. custom of throwing just one bull pen session between starts, though he has taken the unorthodox step of doing so one day before a start instead of three days prior.
He has also begun icing his arm for the first time, a concession to pitching every five days in the U.S. as opposed to every six in Japan
because when he recently got hurt i remember they FINALLY changed him (maybe finally completely changed him?) over to a MLB routine vs his previous one
from the mens health article above
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
yuuup
read the first link i posted lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
We must train to tolerate the demands of pitching. We must recognize the demands of pitching as a ballistic explosive activity and train for those demands. Matsuzaka also does not ice after he throws. I really do not know what that is so revolutionary; we instituted that as a policy in the minor leagues with the White Sox in 1989. I thoroughly researched the physiology of icing then and have continued to follow the research and there is not a physiological reason to ice a healthy shoulder or elbow. In fact it may be counterproductive. I am glad he is getting publicity for that because maybe it will force people to reevaluate icing.
from the first link
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
Correct...
Icing can make it worst because you are building up a lot of fluid and not releasing it. If anything you should throw the next day to help get rid of those fluids. Some people recommend running or some light throwing after a game.
BTW
Matsuzaka’s preference to pitch rather than lift weights has a basis in sports science. It’s called the Principal of Specificity. The Japanese, however, teach all their pitchers the same delivery, which has that pause at the “balance point”. That pause kills their momentum, which kills their efficiency and velocity.

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