Tony Massarotti on BoSox/Rangers trade possibilities
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 11, 2008 11:56 AM CST
177 comments
Tony Massarotti of the Boston Globe discusses the potential for a Ranger/Red Sox trade:
The Rangers need pitching and have catching to deal, which makes them the ideal trade partner for the Sox on this year's market. Quite simply, there is no better fit. Texas has four catchers on its 40-man roster -- Gerald Laird, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Taylor Teagarden and Max Ramirez -- and one major league evaluator recently suggested that the Rangers would be willing to deal two of them (so long as Ramirez is one of the two).That leaves Laird, Teagarden, and Saltalamacchia as the centerpiece of any deal.
Clearly, if the Sox wanted Laird, they could easily get him. The defensively skilled Teagarden (who is also blessed with power) and the hyped Saltalamacchia are more desirable targets that will cost more, though Epstein and his baseball operations staff understand the difficulty in finding good young catching. If the Red Sox ever were to give up a top pitching prospect like Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden or Justin Masterson -- the last is unlikely -- this is precisely the kind of deal that would inspire them to do it.
So why hasn't a deal been struck yet? As every executive likes to say at this time of year, there are a lot of "moving parts." If the Red Sox can upgrade their offense significantly on the free agent market, they can make a lesser trade (Laird?) and keep their pitching prospects because the rest of their lineup would allow them to carry a mediocre catcher. At the same time, if the Sox lose on someone like Mark Teixeira, the cost for Saltalamacchia or Teagarden could go up.
I'm starting to think a Ranger/Boston trade makes too much sense to actually happen. These obvious deals never end up going down.
0 recs |
177 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
It's hard for me to see Boston signing Teixeira
with Lars Anderson coming. They would basically have to sit Anderson until Ortiz retires or trade him, and I don’t think that they want to do either of those things.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 12:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
that said
i can see them driving up the price for teixeira
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Why is it in a team like Boston’s interest to drive up Teixeira’s price? I can see the argument if he is going to sign anyway with NY – make sure more of their budget is locked up in one guy – but in general there is
Tex getting LESS money from an Anaheim or a Washington is better for Boston, because it means that in 3 or so years guys like Youklis and Pedroia get less money and other guys will be cheaper. If Tex gets 200 million, then that means more 2nd tier guys will expect 100 million. Given the BoSox’s tendency to go after big free agents, that means they’ll end up paying more in the future for their targets.
In the owners vs players game, its in the owners interest to keep all salaries lower. So if a team has no interest in signing a guy, they shouldn’t drive up the price
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
both your theory
and KOK’s seem too complex, I’m recanting my bingo. I think Boston has interest in Teixeira as one possible scenario this offseason, and the interest is legitimate. But to suggest that they hope Teixeira signs for less with someone else so that another player can have a lower salary in 3 years is a stretch. There are too many other variables for them to bother thinking of that.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It probably is too complex
but I was just using it as a counter argument for trying to “drive up the price”. I’m saying there really is no point in doing that. It just isn’t the same as Scott Boras trying to get Boston involved to drive up the price.
I would say that generally owners cringe when they see other teams overpaying lots of $$$, because it means they’ll have to pay that too someday.
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Driving up the price is to their advantage
Unless you are a NY team or you are the Red Sox, any $20 MM/year+ contract on the books is likely going to significantly hamper your ability to sign other free agent players. If they can get the Angels to bite and pay Tex $22/10, then that keeps them away from some other free agents, which would theoretically help the Sox against them.
by FuturePants on Nov 11, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which was my point
not necessarily drive up price for NYY but for other teams like LAA
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boston Not The Type to Go For Big Contract
No one mentioned the biggest reason why Boston won’t sign Teixeira, because they’re front office is not the type to commit 10 years guaranteed to anyone, especially at that annual rate.
They’re just too sabermetrically inclined to take that mathematical risk. The only way they get involved realistically if the rest of the field has wised up and refuses to go past 5 +/- years as well.
This is the front office that placed Manny on unconditional waivers simply beacuse of his enormous contract and he’s a headache, and he didn’t even have that many years left.
by gr7070 on Nov 11, 2008 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Buchholz
It’s starting to feel catch-22. If they deal him he must be damaged. If they refuse it’s because he’s awesome.
I’ve been reading about this too long. I probably won’t be disappointed if it’s Masterson/Bowden+Bowden+low-level positional/pitching talent. And I do think it’ll happen, certainly not later than the next winter meetings.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 12:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
would anyone do
masterson for laird
bowden for laird
masterson or bowden + haggadone or bard for salty + poveda
i still am hoping for boscan + latin arm + salty for buchholtz
that said, i know its a pipe dream
hey Zy what do you think the chances of that happening are?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird
for either of those guys would be just fine…after it’s all said and done. I’d rather set my sights on “Buchholz or bust,” while entertaining a Bailey for Laird swap, and seeing what else is on the table. Snell???
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 11, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're not
going to trade you Bailey for Laird.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, in that case
just send Laird to Boston for Buchholz. Theo is way down on him I hear, he needs a change of scenery.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd heard that was a rumor a few months back...
anything we could add outside of a major prospect to make that happen? wasn’t it the Reds that were after Laird?
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 11, 2008 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is all just my opinion of course
but there just isn’t nearly enough bang for their buck there to center a deal around those two. Why even bother dealing Bailey if you’re going to get like three cents on the dollar? You’re better off stowing him away somewhere and seeing if he bounces back and matures.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
From what it sounds like, the Reds are willing to just give him away for anything.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 11, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know that's what it sounds like
If Feliz has a really weird 2009 and loses like 5 mph off his FB and struggles, should we give him away next fall?
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Feliz was turning 23 in May
lost 5 mph off his fastball, struggles in the Majors and the minors, and becomes a huge headcase, I can definitely see the case being made to trade him for a piece we really want.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 11, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is Laird isn’t a piece they really want. He’s a guy they’d take as their catcher, but he’s not a critical target for them. Sure they’d probably trade Bailey for something important, but Laird is not valuable.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And again
in your post you said “just give him away for anything” not “a piece they really want.”
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird
for Masterson or Bowden won’t happen. You know my feelings on Buchholz. I could see something involving one of the other pitchers and Salty.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i know it wont happen
just throwing it out there
would you do bard for laird? you think that happens?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From Tim Dierkes Chat
3:04
[Comment From Salty; Hate’em or Love’em]
Do you think the Red Sox would feel that a straight-up Salty for Bucholz deal would be reasonable, or would they only be willing to part with Bowden/Masterson unless the Rangers substitute Teagarden?
3:05
I lean toward the latter. For me Buchholz is worth more than Salty. I also dont see Masterson being offered for Salty.
Sounds like he feels Boston would consider Bowden for Salty straight up, but nothing else unless Texas added prospects. So who do you think we have to add to get Bucholz or Masterson?
"Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America -- there is the United States of America."
by sunlegend54 on Nov 11, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Salty>Bowden
And I think most everyone realizes that. No one should seriously hope that Salty nets Buchholz, and frankly, I think Masterson is now being overrated because of his postseason success, but I still think he projects as a 7th or 8th inning bullpen guy.
Bowden, who is 18 months younger than Masterson, IIRC, has somehow grown underrated due to his reported lack of an out pitch. Still, I think he is a solid #3 or #4 on a good team when it is all said and done, and if I am the Rangers, I push for him AND Bard, which I think is reasonable.
by clark on Nov 11, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
correction
no one should seriously expect Salty to bring back Buchholz. But we all can dream…
That said, Clay hasn’t pitched in the AFL since Nov 3, after going every 5 days before that. Has anyone heard anything?
by clark on Nov 11, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
May have pulled him
don’t want to risk injury.
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently he's done
I found this:
With Theo Epstein in attendance, Clay Buchholz struggled in his final AFL outing, giving up five hits and four walks as he failed to get out of the fourth inning. Buchholz dazzled with his raw stuff in his five outings here but struggled at times with location and overall consistency. To be fair, he was throwing a lot more fastballs than usual because he was down here to work on fastball command, and eventually hitters can figure out you’re using your secondary stuff less. I’m still a big believer in Buchholz for 2009, and think he can have a nice bounceback season if he earns a rotation slot.
It’s dated Nov. 6.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3686137&name=grey_jason
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird
Obviously he won’t go to Boston for Bowden or Masterson, much less Buchholz. The question is, who could he get – what is a reasonable return for him?
Does he have to get dealt as a package (Laird + prospect —> better prospect?) – or is there . People keep saying that we have to get good starting pitching for Laird, which seems needlessly unrealistic…
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Good pitching for Laird is unrealistic. I don’t think that he has to be packaged, he just has to go for less than a top asset. JD has been trying to deal him for a top asset for a year now.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right
I contend that even though Laird’s trade value has to be better than it was this time last year, the lost year of development (and service time) for Salty more than negates the value gained by Laird. I think the way JD has handled the catching situation over the last year has resulted in a net loss.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bring up Salty and letting him play caddy for most of the season just because we didn't have another viable catcher in the system when Melhuse went down
was a horrible error by JD.
Just butt freaking terrible.
We lost a year of development time with Salty and a year of his team control time as well.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
I still can’t believe we did that.
Dumb.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 11, 2008 9:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ding ding ding
and for the people that kept suggesting that Salty be called up ad nauseum and never had anything else to talk about, can you finally see how that was not a good idea?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Either he was going to split playing time with Laird with the big club, or split playing time with Teagarden at Oklahoma.
Dude didn’t stand a chance.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 11, 2008 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
when did TT get promoted to AAA
I thought the promotion was because of Laird’s injury
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If I recall correctly
Most of those who wanted him up (I was one of them) wanted to play him full time when he got here.
I found the entire idea of having him and Laird compete in ST for the catcher’s job to be ridiculous anyway.
by Telegraph on Nov 11, 2008 9:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That was my position too
I never understood why we’d put Gerald F’ing Laird ahead of player development, and still don’t. But Laird admittedly did a good job of fighting to keep his job, and we seemed to buy into the illusion that we might be able to snag a wildcard spot or something during that great summer run.
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 11, 2008 9:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, and one of those Bowdens should be Bard.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt Teixeira signs before Christmas
JD needs to get another team involved. Maybe he can repeat the Josh Beckett fiasco. He can use the Marlins to extract Buchholz from Boston the way the Marlins used Danks/Blalock to extract Hanley Ramirez from Boston. One can argue the Marlins owe it to JD…
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 12:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
damn
in hindsight, how good would have trading danks/blalock for either hanley or beckett lol
why is it that texas keeps getting used to drive up peoples prices – randy johnson, clements, beckett…
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What does this mean?
If the Red Sox ever were to give up a top pitching prospect like Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden or Justin Masterson — the last is unlikely
Does that mean Justin Masterson is unlikely. Why would someone say that as opposed to Buchholz is unlikely? Strange. I assumed Buchholz would be the untouchable, unlikely one.
Personally, I prefer Masterson to Bowden.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Nov 11, 2008 1:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't understand that either.
I took it to mean the Rangers wouldn’t accept a Masterson based deal. Surely they don’t value Masterson over Buchholz?
by LiamP on Nov 11, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I read that as, he’s reporting the Red Sox are higher on Masterson than Buchholz.
He has done well with the ML team more recently than Buchholz has…
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what he was saying
But he’s wrong.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
zywica
how do you know this? i know you are guarded against getting your hopes up, but do you know someone or have you read something we haven’t? I am not going to argue that it is likely that they trade Buchholz, but the press sure seems to think it is possible.
by clark on Nov 11, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know it
And I know I come off as certain, but I’m only confident based on what seems like obvious reality to me. And trust me, I’m not being guarded. I’m going to look pretty stupid if we get Buchholz. If I were being guarded and conservative, I’d say something like ’I’d be surprised, but who knows?’
I don’t mean to be a bully about it. I’m just giving my opinion. There just isn’t much doubt in my mind.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As a Red Sox Fan
Right now, the Red Sox think very highly of Masterson and in our eyes give him a higher value then the Rangers probably will. This makes it very unlikely for Masterson to be part of a deal.
by drabidea on Nov 12, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and
I think you know better than to trust beat writers, right? Their only barometer is however much they can get out of a team. That’s great if the team will just be 100% honest with them, but do you really think that Boston is going to lay out its intentions for their goofy beat guys? Teams give them just enough so that they don’t get too frustrated, and often just enough to get what they want out there. In a case like this, the writers are left to their own judgment, which fails them about 95% of the time.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know why people don't realize this
about our beat writers too.
When EG comes out and says that the Rangers rank their catchers availability as 1. MaxRam, 2. Laird, 3. Salty, 4. Tea, it is 100% because that is the message the Rangers WANT to have out there. By saying that, it implicitly raises Tea’s value, and makes it clear to the baseball world that the Rangers are willing to keep Laird, raising his value.
Beat writers don’t know anything more about what teams want to do than anyone else. In fact, with something as subjective as “how an organization values its players,” I imagine these GMs just say whatever is most expedient for them.
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't agree more
it is 100% because that is the message the Rangers WANT to have out there.
which is why it pisses me off when Evan tries to blow smoke.
There’s enough transparency for independent thinking to occur.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect opportunity
to buy low on Buchholz. Kids a stud.
by Heebs on Nov 11, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize
that buying low on him means giving up someone like Feliz, right?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I meant in addition to a catcher, sorry.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
you think it takes holland/feliz + a catcher?
hmmmm
yes, he is what we hope holland/feliz become – but if the value of him is that high i would think there would be next to no trade talk about him
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't worry
the Rangers would never trade Holland or Feliz, plus a catcher, for Buchholz.
by clark on Nov 11, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
why do you think his value is so high?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they'll start
asking for Teagarden and a pitcher, maybe not Feliz or Holland. Salty instead of Teagarden raises the value of the pitcher needed, and it it’s Laird I think they ask for Feliz or Holland. I don’t know, I’m just guessing like the rest of you.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to comment on that.
I’m not sure this guy is on the ball. Buccholz is almost certainly less touchable than Masterson.
He also says MaxRam is the catcher they absolutely want to deal, which is probably wrong. He probably meant he’s the catcher they absolutely don’tw ant to deal, which is also probably wrong.
by philkid3 on Nov 11, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Buchholz spent the last year
frustrating the Red Sox managerial staff with his struggles. He was bad, they sent him down to Pawtucket where he was good, and then he came back and was worse than before he got sent back.
Masterson at least has had sustained success this year, so I can see why they might be higher on him. Long-term, I think Buchh is the better bet.
"It's just a tiny little nick, but it hurts when I get champagne in there."
- Jason Bay, on getting spiked scoring the winning run in ALDS Game Four.
by 0157H7 on Nov 11, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand that Masterson is more valuable to them right now (as in, next year)
But beyond that, Buchholz surely has more value. You can speak to this better than me (or anyone here probably), but Masterson’s future is probably in the pen as a setup guy right? I just don’t understand why the Sox would be willing to include Buchholz in a deal and not Masterson (not that I’d complain if that went down). Maybe I overrate Buchholz and still picture him as that ridiculously promising pitcher I saw in ’07.
by LiamP on Nov 11, 2008 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know you're not disputing this
but that’s what young, talented pitchers often do, frustrate you. I can’t believe that Boston isn’t smart enough to realize this. The only way they’d deal him is if they think something is wrong with him that they probably can’t fix (health or brain).
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or that something is wrong with their team
that they probably can’t fix soon.
[Franchise catcher]
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 11:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's debatable
I haven’t heard a catcher rumored to them that is in Buchholz’s class in terms of being a potential “franchise” starter/catcher. If Baltimore wanted to talk with them about Wieters, okay, I can see your point.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How's Wieters D?
Cause his bat looks AMAZING
At this rate, he’ll be throwing 107-110 by 2012
by trident on Nov 12, 2008 4:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, yah. If they wanted to talk Weiters I think Buccholz would be an Oriole right now.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know man.
Camden Chat talks about Wieters the same way we talk about Holland and Feliz.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 12, 2008 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying from the Red Sox perspective.
Weiters is the absolute shit.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I never suggested a 1:1
But I definitely think a deal could be centered around Teagarden for Buchholz.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
But we’ve been all through that.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 12, 2008 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sweet profile pic
ready for the movie?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i dunno man
Buch seems to have some serious red flags now…
I think we should stay away from him.
Jindal '12
by Longhorn on Nov 11, 2008 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
obvious deals
wasn’t that what happened with Tex and the Braves?
Seemed like that went back and forth and then in the end JD went back to ATL…made the trade that was probably there the entire time.
Jindal '12
by Longhorn on Nov 11, 2008 1:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't assume
the trade was on the table the entire time.. Atlanta was the desperate one.
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Saltalamacchia, Harrison and Andrus were there all the time. Feliz and Jones weren’t.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Harrison was a late addition?
by LiamP on Nov 11, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Beau Jones was
because of Matt Harrison’s injury.
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't aware of Feliz' late arrival, though.
If true, JD learned well.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It just wasn't determined
I think that Feliz/Schafer/Hanson for Atlanta, Kershaw for the Dodgers, and, I don’t know, someone from the Angels were what Daniels was holding out to add. He probably would have pulled the trigger early if Kershaw or Schafer had been in the deal, but he wound up getting Feliz added to the Braves deal, which easily outweighed what he could get added to those Kotchman/Loney oriented offers.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that about Feliz?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2008 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Piecing reported info together
and like sixth hand information.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 12, 2008 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kotchman and Santana for Teixeira:
I kinda wonder how that all would have played out.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 12, 2008 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Schafer
I thought he was an either/or with Saltalamacchia, or even another player in the package.
Then his name came up again in more ignominious news, reminding Rangers fans they got the better package.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 12, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they wanted him instead of Saltalamacchia but accepted the deal they got. Everything that I’ve heard, both about 12-14 months ago and now, is that Schafer, Andrus and Feliz are guys they really liked (Daniels all but said this in his comments after the deal, btw). I have to think that they liked Saltalamacchia quite a bit too, but you never actually hear that said. And I wished to goodness that they’d get Hanson, and I wish even more so now after his excellent 2008, but I’ve never heard anything about their interest in him.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 12, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did Tim Lincecum just win the Cy Young?
I was just in a grocery store in San Francisco and some man was carrying on about it. I’m not sure if this is old news or not….
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Nov 11, 2008 1:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
WOW just WOW
what a beast! He’s only 24 years old.
$$ Cha-ching $$
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Nov 11, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
List of 24 and younger Cy Young winners
1964 Dean Chance – Age 23 – Out of Baseball at 31
1968 Denny McClain – Age 24 (31 Win Season) out of Baseball at 29
1969 Tom Seaver – Age 24
1971 Vida Blue – Age 21
1981 Fernando Valenzuela – Age 20
1985 Bret Saberhagen – Age 21
1985 Dwight Gooden Age 20
1986 Roger Clemens Age 23
1987 Roger Clemens Age 24
2002 Barry Zito Age 24
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 11, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a little early?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Denny McClain
only former Ranger on that list… Also I’d imagine the only one to spend time in federal prison, though Gooden probably would have gotten close and Clemens may go at some point.
by JBImaknee on Nov 11, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This just in! Breaking news!
McCarthy says his finger still hurts.
http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/foul_territory/2008/11/update-on-the-health-of-rangers.html
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 2:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I bet you practically broke your computer
trying to get over here quick enough to post that with such glee.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 11, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, the first thing I did was
send him a note explaining that the finger might heal better if he would remove it from his vagina.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Snicker ... giggle
Yeah, its a 5th grader kind of remark, but it still made laugh
by BEW on Nov 11, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 11, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You'd think
That a caring parent would have explained that foreplay should not be done with the pitching hand.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 11, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Overuse warning! Overuse warning!
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 11:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Giggle.
Brandon McCarthy is still feeling some pain in his right middle finger, but Daniels said that is normal.
True that JD, true that.
by LiamP on Nov 11, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 11:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"He's still shitty." -Brian C. Thomas
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 11, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
MJH on Hurley
Posted this in the Tuesday thread but yeah…
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/conditioning-camp-notes-determined-hurle.html
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 2:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oof.
“It all started with the hamstring and the arm problem flowed from there. I knew I wasn’t quite right,” Hurley says of his final start in Oakland, “but I felt like I could go out there and compete and try to help the club win. I shouldn’t have done it, I guess. I cost the team a win. Cost us a sweep. But I’m a competitor. I’d thrown a side. Thrown long toss. I thought I could get it together enough to win a game.”
As if we needed more evidence that pitching hurt is absolutely retarded…
by LiamP on Nov 11, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
why in the hell do guys want to keep on pitching hurt
lets see, if a pitcher pitches with one problem it almost ALWAYS leads to another problem which leads to another problem
so is it better to say your hurt or potentially have a longer-term injury (up to TJ)
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can definitely
see where he is coming from with it comes to trying to gut it out. it is tough to just give the ball over to someone else when you think you are good. Hindsight is always 20/20. it always took me a game to realize i was actually injured and not just sore or battling thru a long season.
2010 Rangers = 2008 Rays?
by booyahcaveman on Nov 11, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because if you own up to trying to pitch hurt and say you need to shut it down, EG throws you under the bus and Eric Nadel kneecaps you with the lead pipe that is his awesome blog.
Although, in fairness, I searched for the Ceej-hating Eric Nadel blog post and couldn’t find it.
Did I imagine it?
Does anyone else remember it?
Link?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 11, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Nadel had a blog
At the time that went down (unless he has one I don’t know about). The Ranger broadcasters blog didn’t come along till September, I don’t think.
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 11, 2008 9:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they deleted it.
I remember reading it and getting pretty worked up that the freaking radio announcer was joining in on all the bus throwing. Here’s a reference to it on LSB, but the blog post is either not there anymore or I just suck at google.
Maybe they realized it was a stupid blog entry from a… well. Let’s just say I lost a ton of respect for Eric Nadel when I read that blog.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 11, 2008 11:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Found
But didn’t scan down for CJ remarks.
http://rangersannouncers.mlblogs.com/
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 11, 2008 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I found it.
I swear I remember reading a full blog post about this, but it’s nowhere to be found and there’s a quote in one of those Q and A’s that sums up Sir Nadel’s feelings on pussies and why they deserve to die.
“Now [CJ] has chosen to have surgery, rather than try to take medication and pitch through the discomfort. That will not win him many points with his teammates”
Yah, now we know why pitchers try to pitch through injuries rather than shutting it down: Cause if they don’t Eric Nadel goes onto his blog and punks them out in public for being little pink-lipped pussy bitches.
That pisses me off to no end. I’m seriously so mad right now. sdfgkjvsheofghisld,mvnl.lkjijflkdjv;lskdjv
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2008 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it possible Nadel was saying ‘now’… as in… “Now, you’ve decided to have surgery?”
I can’t speak for others… but C.J.‘s injury certainly didn’t come as a shock… ineffective as he had been.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 12, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Still, Nadel, I love you, but ...
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
GTFO
got chopped off.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You sure? Really sure?
I like CJ and his talent, maybe better than CJ likes CJ and his talent. Guitar Hero showcasing, running his Porsche (GT III ?) competitively, his back and forth on his commentary on line? At times I’ve wondered if his earnestness about pitching is just another role in his life (playa). And I want him to succeed on the mound. He draws veteran observer comments like a scarlet tablecloth draws bulls in the ring.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 12, 2008 12:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Could there be another reason for that?
Inferiority complex, from Nadel, if not jealousy?
I don’t believe that off of one comment, but I wouldn’t be surprised if BGL grinds people’s gears by being a free spirit.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're reading
way too much into all that.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2008 12:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2008 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bah, humbug
Grant doesn’t hate Wilson anymore than you hate Grant, even though you occasionally spit in his general direction.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because you'll grow a vag if you don't pitch hurt
by Telegraph on Nov 11, 2008 9:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That isn't even funny
but for some reason I laughed.. must be very tired.
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hurley's fastball
Is it considered a plus pitch, as MJH asserts?
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought his FB was his foundation pitch.
FB/slider/change I think?
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, all reports I've read
say that he has always leaned very heavily on the FB. When he was coming up the lower minors, the FB was reported as a plus pitch, with 92-96 velocity, but I don’t think he was anywhere near that velo last year. His slider has always been inconsistent, leading to some of the hr problem. Change has never been something that he used much.
Basically, if Hurley doesn’t have a plus FB, there probably isn’t much of a future for him, so I’m hoping someone will tell me that he still has that big heater in his back pocket.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
im pretty sure when
he was right and not hurt his FB was around 92-94, so i think that range is fine. As the game went along his FB velo increased usually as well
by blalock84 on Nov 11, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If his avg FBV can stay around 92 that's plenty of juice.
Very, very few dudes can consistently bring it harder than that.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 11, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hurley
I remember he used to throw a two seamer and four seamer coming up. What ever happened to that?
He definitely was not throwing mid 90’s last year. He was more often 89-91.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on Nov 11, 2008 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
according to people that would know
Hurley does not and has not ever thrown a 2 seamer.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 12, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends
on when we’re talking about. At points in his career Hurley has had what projected as a plus fastball, for its combination of velocity, movement and location. Assuming that he’s not still hurt, and that, if mechanical issues contributed to his inability to build velocity during a game like he’s done in the past, he and his coaches can fix that, I think it could still be a plus pitch.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hurley
he definitely seems a little forgotten after having a pretty meh debut and it seems like people are resigned to the fact that he’ll just be another #4.
He could have a pretty big breakout next year, even with his long ball tendencies.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure how everyone remembers it
but he was pretty impressive for those first four starts, and i was getting pretty hyped up. the last start hurts his numbers, but i am optimistic that he wins a spot at the back end of the rotation with Harrison.
by clark on Nov 11, 2008 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't even think a #4 should be viewed as poorly as it seems
as long as he’s a consistent #4 meaning he can pitch 180-200IP and put up an ERA around 4.50 without a ton of variation.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Nov 11, 2008 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
4.5 ERA and 180-200 IP
is what you call a League average innings eater.
Its much better than a #4.
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 11, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's at least
a #3.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 11, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought his debut went quite well, actually
He was just kind of getting rolling when he got hurt.
I still predict that Hurley will be in the rotation much longer than Matt Harrison.
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 11, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant to say
A’s hole was or Mariner’s would be
A’s hole or Mariner’s would be doesn’t really make sense.
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Done
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 11, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
big breakout next year, even with his long ball tendencies.
well he has been pretty gawd aweful at AAA…so yes, if he is even average he will have a breakout year
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hurley
I saw him pitch at the home game against ATL, and I was impressed with him settling down after giving up a 1st inning HR to Chipper Jones (no shame in that). He battled that game and I left more impressed with him than ever before.
Right now, it just seems like he’s the odd man out, with McCarthy/Harrison/Feldman/traded starter/FA starter vying for spots in the rotation. I don’t think you can give Hurley the nod over Harrison after Matt went through the pains of being a rookie and came out looking like something we can work with. Feldman IMO has earned a spot in the rotation to start the year no matter how ST goes for him. He did everything asked of him in his first year of starting and is still only 25. I believe can improve if he can get back to the command/low walk rate that helped him roll through the minors. Hurley might have a chance for the 5 spot if we don’t trade for a pitcher, but even then, I think if healthy, Wash and Co. will roll with McCarthy out the gate.
I predict he’ll open in AAA, but hopefully he’ll be ready for the call when injuries/potential trades happen. I’m rooting for the guy.
"Relying on the government to protect your privacy is like asking a peeping tom to install your window blinds."
by Maximilian on Nov 11, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still remember that changeup he threw to strike out Chipper swinging
God damn that was sexy
by Telegraph on Nov 11, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boston thinking about Chris Ianetta
Now that’s a guy they’d give Buchholz for, I believe.
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_10956893
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 4:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
if they trade him for a catcher
its gonna make me sick
ugh
we have 4 (good ones) + a top 5 farm system and we couldnt get a trade worked out?
bleh
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean
a top 1 farm system?
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 11:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Buccholz for Iannetta?
Are you being serious?
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Iannetta is proven at the ML level
333 ML ABs in 2008: .264 / .390 / .504, 18 HR
803 MiL ABs: .303 /.409 / .509
Iannetta’s 25 (26 in April).
Tea’s 8 months younger. In 47 ABs he put up Nintendo, retarded, outlier numbers. He’s coming down to Earth from those, so you look at the Minors numbers.
756 MiL ABs: .267/.390/.509
The lines are very similar, Iannetta’s just more proven and more experienced at the ML level.
We should hope Taylor has a future through his full age-25 season. If you think Boston would give Buchholz for Tea, well, I think they’d give him more enthusiastically for Iannetta.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 11, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Iannetta
even has a better career OPS away from Coors…
Home: .775 (307 AB’s)
Away: .843 (300 AB’s)
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 11, 2008 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But if he was really so good
He would have probably put Yorbit to the bench by now?
by tyd3311 on Nov 11, 2008 10:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they would
and Colorado can’t really spare Iannetta unless they do get a ridiculous return like Buchholz.
by Brett Perryman on Nov 11, 2008 11:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
