Pedroia wins AL MVP
by DSheppard on Nov 18, 2008 1:07 PM CST
156 comments
BOSTON -- Just call him Mr. November. Or better yet, refer to Dustin Pedroia as the Most Valuable Player of the American League.
The second baseman of the Boston Red Sox continued his rapid burst into the national spotlight on Tuesday, when he was recognized with that impressive honor.
Though most pundits expected the race for MVP to be agonizingly close, Pedroia won in comfortable fashion, outdistancing a solid field that included, among others, Red Sox first baseman Kevin Youkilis, Twins first baseman Justin Morneau, Rangers outfielder Josh Hamilton and Angels closer Francisco Rodriguez.....
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Oh well, I thought Hamilton still had a shot but he wasn't really the most deserving anyway. Sixth is lower than I expected though.
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No suprise here.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 1:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
it angers me that he won, and it angers me even more that he probably deserved it (or was a fair winner at least). I just don’t like the guy. At all.
I’d probably have voted for Mauer.
by JBImaknee on Nov 18, 2008 1:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bartlett
Got a 5th place vote. He is higher than Kinsler. Awesome.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 18, 2008 1:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yah, that stood out to me, too.
Who the hell voted for Bartlett?
I mean… WTF?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
joe madden
said he was his “most indespensible” player
but jp howell was maddens team “mvp”
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know
I wonder how many players have gotten an MVP vote with an OPS under .700.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 18, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Prolly only him and the Wizzard, at least in recent memory.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bartlett is soooooo good
Jason Bartlett’s tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried
Jason Bartlett does not hunt because the word hunting infers the probability of failure. Jason Bartlett goes killing.
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Jason Bartlett.
They once made a Jason Bartlett toilet paper, but it wouldn’t take shit from anybody.
There is no such thing as tornados. Jason Bartlett just hates trailer parks.
Chuck Norris only pleasures himself to pictures of Jason Bartlett.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 18, 2008 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bartlett and FJM (RIP)
I just want to announce here on this blog, that if any baseball analyst of any kind tells me that “you really have to watch Jason Bartlett play every day to understand how much he means to this team,” and that same analyst is found drowned at the bottom of my hot tub the next morning, and I am found standing upon that corpse, in the hot tub, wearing my trunks and a hoodie and just relaxing and smoking a joint, and maybe ordering a pizza or something, and instructing the delivery guy to come in through the gate because I’m in the back standing on a body in my hot tub — if all of that happens, I would really appreciate if someone could meet me outside, by my hot tub, and float me a few dollars for the pizza, because I will be in no mood to get off of that corpse, or get out of the hot tub for that matter, and plus I will probably have forgotten to bring some money out to the hot tub with me.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Nov 18, 2008 6:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Injury
That really killed Kinsler. He would have had a chance had he finished strong.
Go Cubbies and Go Rangers!
by pbpsean on Nov 18, 2008 1:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Although by the same token if quentin hadnt missed a month it was probably his.
the preceding post was a great success.
by DSheppard on Nov 18, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I will say
Better Pedroia than Morneau or Youkilis(2nd/3rd).
Youkilis is even more annoying and Morneau’s stats arnt actually particularly good for 1b.. him having 2 MVPs already just wouldn’t seem right.
the preceding post was a great success.
by DSheppard on Nov 18, 2008 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Him or Sizemore, yah.
But it’s not like it’s a horrible choice or anything.
Pedroia was very good for a very good team.
I don’t have any huge problems with this.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
look at the bottom
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I could have gone with:
Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Dustin Pedroia, Joe Mauer or Alex Rodriguez
And maybe Roy Halliday or Kevin Youkilis, but I’d have trouble putting them over Lee and Pedroia, respectively.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Highest position player
by WARP…
I despise that rat-faced bahstahd.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Nov 18, 2008 1:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Some regurgitated OPD (Offensive Plus Defense) numbers...
…courtesy of Chris Dial available here.
K-Rod wasn’t even the third-best closer in his own league. Good times!
Both Sizemore and A-Rod were roundly screwed, and I’m really not comprehending how Morneau finished second, but then it is the BBWAA we’re dealing with here. Pedroia is a defensible choice, at least.
Bartlett’s inclusion is downright hilarious.
by Joey Matschulat on Nov 18, 2008 1:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And for what it's worth
According to Chad Finn of the Boston Globe, only one voter left Pedroia off their ballot entirely: Evan Grant.
by Joey Matschulat on Nov 18, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that cinches
it…..Evan Grant is my favorite writer :-)
by Michael Cave on Nov 18, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Well, it certainly wins him some of the points he lost with all his Michael Young love earlier this month.
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 18, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
link from chris dail
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yet another choice I agree with.
And yet another hilariously bad runner-up.
How the **** did Justin Morneau finish second?! What am I missing?
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 1:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I probably would have voted
something like Mauer, Arod, Sizemore, but I won’t complaing too much about Pedroia. Morneau is pretty stupidly ahead of Mauer, though.
This would have been very interesting if Kinsler had finished the year healthy.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 18, 2008 1:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Kinsler vs. Pedroia
Weren’t they’re stats very close when Kinsler went down? Would Kinsler have beaten Josh in the MVP voting if he’d have played the entire season?
by cgolden on Nov 18, 2008 1:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Kinsler was definitely ahead when he went down.
Pedroia was better defensively, though, and not only did he keep playing but he exploded.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
im disgusted.
pedroia:
122 ops+
.493 slg
.376 obp
.326 ba
52 k
50 bb
20:1 sb:cs
83 rbi
17 hr
54 2b
213 hits
118 runs
653 ab
kinsler:
134 ops+
.517 slg
.375 obp
.318 ba
67 k
45 bb
26:2 sb:cs
71 rbi
18 HR
41 2b
165 hits
102 runs
518 AB
morneau:
137 ops+
.499 slg
.374 obp
.300 ba
85 k
76 bb
0:1 sb:cs
129 rbi
23 HR
47 2b
187 hits
97 runs
623 AB
pedroia (in the AL)
not in the top 10 in OPS+
not in the top 5 in XBH
10th in OPB
not in the top 10 in slg
not in the top 10 in OPS
3rd most AB in the AL
4th most PA in the AL
1st in runs
tied w/ ichiro for most hits
4th in TB
1st in 2b
not in top 10 in HR, RBI, BB, SB
4th most 1b in the AL
not in top 10 in OPS+
4th in runs created
not in the top 10 in adjusted batting runs
not in the top 10 in batting wins
3rd in the AL in times on base
not in the top 10 in offensive win %
2nd most sac flies in the AL
8th best power/speed # in the AL
3rd fewest ab/k
compared to youkilis:
11 more 2b
12 less hr
12 less bb
half as many k
14 pts more BA
14 pts less in OBP
76 pts less in SLG
17 more SB
122 ops+ for pedroia
143 ops+ for youkilis
5th on his team in OPS+
behind 1) youkilis 2) jd drew 3) manny 4) drew
jason bay also had a higher OPS+ but in only 50 games)
and this guy is the AL MVP?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
this angers me the more i think about it
pedroia is a joke of an MVP
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was pretty good, dude.
Third best player in the league according to some offense + defense stats.
The fact that he’s a good defensive playr at a premium position really pushes him way ahead of guys like Morn-O, and the fact that he was better defensively at the same position + played in significantly more games puts him ahead of a guy like Kinzler, imo.
Seems to me like Sizemore, Arod and Mauer are the ones who really got jobbed here.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How much do you think Cleveland's record hurt Sizemore?
Despite A-Rod winning it once here, it’s unusual to give a guy on a low standing team credit (Pujols excepted too)
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 18, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont really understand the Sizemore talk
He was really good, but it wasn’t stand out great. Am I missing something?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
You’re missing that he was great. He was a .374/.502 hitting centerfielder who got a ton of plate apperances, played great defense and stole 38 bases on 43 attempts. That simple stuff in itself should scream “great.”
He was second, by one run, in Runs Created. He had an 8.1 WARP. By Justin’s stats presented at Beyond the Boxscore he was tops in the AL with 76 RAR. He was second in the AL, by 1.7 runs, in VORP. His +7 was 10th among MLB centerfielders, and that’s worth an estimated 5.6 runs.
He was really, really good and has at least as good an argument as the Pedroias and Mauers of the world.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 4:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
Argument.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 7:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i understand the defensive point of view
but that metric has josh hamilton, marco scutaro(!!!), ian kinsler and carlos pena as all haveing about the same value
of all the players on that list, offensively he is ahead of:
marco scutaro (6.6)
my question is if hes the 14th best offensive player in the league and the 1st best defensive player, is that worth of an MVP?
compare to mauer (top 5 offensively and 3rd defensively)
sizemore (top 5 offensively, 4th defensively)
youkilis (top 5 offensively, top 10 defensively)
yes, defense should count, but should they count THAT much? mauer, sizemore and youkilis all were better overall than pedroia if you average their offensive/devensive rank)
how is a guy that only played 50 games in the AL worth as more offensively as someone who won the MVP and played 157 games?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how much the defense is worth.
If this imaginary player was actually the best, then probably.
That’s ignoring position, though.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
was pedroia the best player in the AL on defense this year?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No.
That’s sort’ve beside the point.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who was according to +/-?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At second?
Chase Utley in MLB with a +47. He was ridiculous.
In the AL it was Mark Ellis with +26. Pedroia was a cool +15.
12 runs (about) of defense is pretty nifty.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
overall - in the major leagues
its utley i think
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No. No he was not.
By a combination of VORP and a +/- estimate, I’m pretty sure he was first in the AL, and was my pick. Calling him a joke of an MVP is a joke.
By the numbers put up at Beyond the Boxscore the AL looked like this:
1. Grady Sizemore (76 Runs)
2. Alex Rodriguez (69 Runs)
3. Dustin Pedroia (61 Runs)
4. Joe Mauer (61 Runs)
He was a fine MVP choice. The difference between he and a replacement player was also very arguably the difference between the playoffs and missing out for the Red Sox.
Justin Morneau, btw, was not even among the 50 best players in baseball. His 27 runs above replacement was worth 10th place among MLB first basemen.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
side note
looking at justin’s numbers
adrian beltre is VERY good on defense (highest rated player i saw on the list)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's great.
His +/- was something like 32 this year.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so if he is the 14th best offensive player in the league but the best defensive player in the league is that worth the MVP?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It depends how good his D was, of course.
If he’s some incredible super beast who makes Ozzie Smith look like a guff-speaking work-slacker and somehow manages to save 200 runs over the course of a season, then, yah he’s the mother effing MVP.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this is my point
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And combining Pedroia's offense with his defense and his positional baseline. . .
. . . he was very arguably the most valuable player in baseball.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What is the "this" you are referring to there? What is your point?
Not trying to be an ass, I just have no clue what you are trying to say.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that defense shouldnt be a deciding factor in the MVP award. should it count, yes should it decide, no.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 9:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So it should count, but not count toward the actual decision itself?
I’m still lost.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 9:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol if it makes you feel better
now i have confused myself
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 9:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was the 14th best offensive player in the league
but he won the MVP because from June 17th his line looked like this…
.376 / .425 / .586
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, that's before positional adjustment.
I know he was 3rd in VORP.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think defense should play a factor, but should be IMPORTANT? no
how much of pedroias value was defensive?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it should be important.
A run saved is exactly worth a run earned.
And I’d estimate Pedroia as being around 12 runs on defense.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heres my question
and my problem with defensive metrics
they vary so much
one one pedroia is very good, hamilton is bad
on another pedroia is good, hamilton is average
there is no solid metric that everyone can use (i like +/- but thats just me – ill agree it has flaws)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Which one has Pedroia as good and Hamilton as bad?
Also, if there’s a solid metric that everyone can use, it’s plus minus. But it correlates fairly well with the defensive estimate Sky Kalkman likes to use (other than maybe in the corners).
At least in my rough experience.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me: which one has Pedroia as bad and Hamilton as average?
That’s what I meant to ask.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True, but...
This year in the AL there really wasn’t a clear-cut frontrunner for the MVP unlike last year with ARod. Not really a player that stood out more than any other candidate. So when there is no clear frontrunner, writers are going to go with the play that had the hottest last month of the season, and that player was Pedroia. On a team that had their best hitter traded away (Manny) and another injuried for the majority of the season (Ortiz), Pedroia carried them. He was Boston’s Kinsler, a player that got on base and score some runs for their big bats.
Besides, who really wants to give a MVP to a closer?
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on Nov 18, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
Don’t try to use Kinsler’s injury as an excuse to a Sox fan. When I tried that I got “You mean the guy who had to transfer schools because my 2B took his job?”
Totally forgot about that.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Nov 18, 2008 2:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
kind of like joe flacco
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
total BS.
the MVP only being considered for contending teams has to be the stupidest thing in sports. It is called the Most Valuable Player not the Most Help to Winning Games Player
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 3:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It should be a pitcher
because only pitchers are valuable enough to be chosen with a top draft pick.
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 18, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
by BuckyB on Nov 18, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You obviously haven't met Save us
It would make alot more sense if you did
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 18, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was actually referring to DJCahill's
There is a large difference between most valuable position on a team and the most valuable player in the league
by BuckyB on Nov 18, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When have i said that pitchers are valuable than hitters in baseball?
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 5:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
every time you talk
otherwise your entire arguement regarding taking smoak at 11 fails.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the RANGERS need a pitcher way more than they need a hitter for multiple reasons
and Athletics need a hitter way more than they need a pitcher.
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, what about this
What if the rangers had drafted a pitcher at 11, and the very next pick the A’s took Smoak. Then, here in the next couple of years, Smoak goes off on us because we didn’t take him, and starts pounding our pitchers to high ERAs. And then that pitcher we took didn’t pan out and turns out to be a rilef pitcher. Would you still say we made the right choice?
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on Nov 18, 2008 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes because the reward for smoak doing good is nothing since
we’ll already have a top 5 or better offense and our pitching will suck.
So might as well take the pitcher considering the last time our ERA was better than league average was 1983.
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, then lets go back to the 2001 Draft
Texas had the number 5 pick overall. In 2000, the team’s ERA was 5.52. But Mark Teixeira is sitting there, a 1st baseman who is considered a can’t miss prospect. We took him. After that, he are the pitchers taken after him in the first round.
Joshua Karp, Chris Smith, John Van Benschoten, Johnathan Griffin, Kenneth Baugh, Michael Jones, Kris Honel, Daniel Denham, Aaron Heilman, Jeremy Sowers, Brad Hennessey, Jason Bulger, Joseph McBride, Jeremy Bonderman, William Horne, Justin Pope, and Noah Lowry.
Now, the question is, do you take any of these pitchers over Tex? None of them have done much (and for some, nothing at all) while Tex became an All-Star First Baseman here and got us Feliz and Harrison in a trade. This is why you always choose the BPA.
So, how is the Smoak pick any different than this?
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on Nov 18, 2008 7:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
blah blah. how many winning seasons have we had with no pitching? and with Tex?
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You know kid
You really are a trip. And not because of your opinions on the GM or pitching or anything – it’s because of your adamant refusal to even look at other reasonable viewpoints when they are presented to you like this.
I don’t think you really care at this point in your maturity, but I’ll say it anyway: I hope one day you’ll learn to listen to both sides of an argument. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with the other side, but you do need to at least be aware of the opposing points to fully understand the issue.
by JimBonnick84 on Nov 18, 2008 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That still doesn't answer my question
Would you take any of those pitchers over Tex?
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on Nov 18, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe Heilman
but those aren’t the same pitchers as in the 2008 draft
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You obviously don't
read this forum much.
The forum regulars will get the joke.
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 18, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and I laughed loudly.
I woke up my kids from their nap, and now, I have to clean my monitor from the coke I spit up on it laughing so hard.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
by Parman on Nov 18, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Because its so easy to know that your team will be first in hitting 2-4 years down the road when that draft pick will actually start helping your team
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 18, 2008 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
when was the last time our pitching was not below league average?
and when was the last time our hitting was below league average?
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When was the last time our farm system had this amount of pitching talent and depth?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 18, 2008 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1983 was the last time our pitching was not below league average
i think its time we get some good pitchers
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 8:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How does that answer my question?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 18, 2008 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
potential is something you haven't done yet, so until this organization actually has ML pitching, DRAFT PITCHERS
by Save us on Nov 18, 2008 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who have potential right?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 19, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it has more credence is sports such as basketball
Where individual success is based more on team performance than individual performance (like baseball). It’s easy to say that Kevin Martin wouldn’t put up 23 points a game if he were on the Lakers last year. His performance has to be measured by the team’s record. In baseball it’s completely different, bc if someone puts up a 1200 OPS, they would have been equally valuable on the Red Sox as they would have been on the Royals
by BuckyB on Nov 18, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Evan
is taking a beating over at the DMN site….
by Ryin A on Nov 18, 2008 4:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
its the DMN
the posters there are all randy galloway sock puppets
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
spelling
butt rolls.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 18, 2008 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That
works as well….
So do I win anything if I guess what song is in your sig?
by Ryin A on Nov 18, 2008 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
already
been guessed by a few here. If you can tell me the opus number without looking it up I’ll be duly impressed.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 18, 2008 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You lost
me at Opus…
I played it on my guitar last night for about 30 mins to no avail.
On top of the obvious definition, Opus is a Austrian Rock-Pop group as well as a Slovakian Record Label I just found out.
Freddie King rules faces.
by Ryin A on Nov 19, 2008 6:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh,
Opus is like a catalog number for composers. Good catch, though. It’s about time for me to change it.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 19, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was saying
I had no idea what an Opus truly was, I looked at your profile pic and fig’d it to be a Beatles tune or something….so I picked up the guitar, strummed what you had in your sig line for 30 mins and couldn’t figure it out….keep it on there, very mysterious for chumps like me
Freddie King rules faces.
by Ryin A on Nov 19, 2008 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The sig
is the first few notes of Beethoven’s 5th symphony, just notes, no chords. I’m imagining you now playing those chords over and over trying to match them to a Beatles song. A for effort!
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 19, 2008 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I tried on my
6 string and 4 string bass just to make sure, haha. For what it’s worth I do dig me some orchestra (or whatever I’m supposed to call it), paricularly Tchaikovsky….as I type this I’m Iistening to the greatness of 1812 Overture (epic shit gives me the bumps), haven’t listened to it in 7+ yrs, thanks for reminding me to do so.
Gonna check out that 5th after this…..have a good night.
Freddie King rules faces.
by Ryin A on Nov 19, 2008 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which red sox do you hate most?
1. pedroia
2. papelbon
3. drew
4. crisp
5. youk
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
by jcAustin on Nov 18, 2008 4:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Youk, Pedroia, Dice-K, Tek and that's about it.
Got no real hate for Papelbon or Drew or Crisp or any of the others.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Youk
By far. I probably hate Youk more than Juan Rivera.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i kind of like dice-k
good story/i like the japanese leagues and seeing how players do
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is he a good story?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i like his background
the how many pitches in how many days in high school, etc
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 9:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, okay.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 9:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just Pedroia
I have this thing about malignant dwarves. He’s Eckstein on roids, or a bridge troll trained at Spaulding.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 18, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That ESPN the Magazine article that tried to paint him as "intense. . ."
. . . just made me think he’s an extreme, annoyin douche.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this what you mean by
It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin
by txranger7 on Nov 18, 2008 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1) Papelbon
2) Youk
3) Dice-K
Basically, I hate all the Red Sox players (mainly due to their fans) but God, I would love Lester on this team
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on Nov 18, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Varitek
And I hate to a vastly lesser degree Pedroia, Youklis and Papelbon. I really despise Varitek, though. Not only is it a total embarrassment that he went to the 2008 all star game, but even worse that that idiot Francona played him. I couldn’t believe it.
by FuturePants on Nov 19, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pedroia
Then Youk. I would have said Crisp next, but he got traded.
"Somewhere out there, between 14-32 BBWAA NL MVP voters are trying to get cheaper winter heating by drilling a hole in the microwave." - Jeff at LoL
by lonestarJon on Nov 19, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1.Pedroia
2.Pedroia
3.Pedroia
4.Pedroia
5.Pedroia
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 18, 2008 5:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
what the eff??
Which one of you did this?
Really, the rebuilding question comes down to Halladay – he’s the only Jay who has the status, the quality, and the salary (and the right amount of time left on his deal) to get a real package of quality prospects back in return. A Rangers fan on the site posted with a possible package that I think the Jays would have to entertain – SS Elvis Andrus, 1B/DH/3B Chris Davis, C Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and SPs Neftali Perez and Tommy Hunter.
Anyways, other stuff…from what I can gather from their site, seems like they could really be interested in Blalock. Some suggested League for Blalock swap? But there is this from their main blogger, Hugo, on the Rangers picking up Hank’s option:
Anyway, a good bit of business for Texas. Even if they don’t want Blalock, he has a lot of trade value to a team like the Jays so good move.
seems like a lot of people over there would be very interested in trading for Hank…
Jindal '12
by Longhorn on Nov 18, 2008 5:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I would love to have League
or any number of guys in the Jay’s pen.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But that Halladay proposal is ridiculous
and would set the franchise back 5 years.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
That’s a crazy deal.
I don’t know if there’s anyone in the league I’d do that deal for. Certainly not many.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll trade Neftali Perez
for just about anyone.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 18, 2008 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True that.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Nov 18, 2008 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
"Somewhere out there, between 14-32 BBWAA NL MVP voters are trying to get cheaper winter heating by drilling a hole in the microwave." - Jeff at LoL
by lonestarJon on Nov 18, 2008 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Anyone watching ESPN?
First off, the 23 hours of basketball is awesome.
Second, these refs are on the Syracuse payroll.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 6:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
How did Quentin Finish above Hamilton?
CQ did not play a game after Sept 1st. Even on that date, JH had better stats than he did. And Hamilton finished the season, even though he struggled a bit.
So i guess by the voters logic, if Hamilton had been hurt the last 2 months of the season instead of playing, he would have won the award going away because of his “projected” numbers.
Rediculous
by Texas Stranger on Nov 18, 2008 7:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Team record.
The CWS made the playoffs, therefor their best player must’ve been more valuable than our best player.
Duh, dude.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
MVP votes are the new OBP.
by thedirkatron on Nov 18, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
MVP voting is a joke...
I dare someone to try and convince me that Pedroia is more “valuable” to his team than A-Rod. Seriously, Dustin Pedroia? I know the guy had a really good year, but he’s not the MVP of the league.
Beat those Cougs.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 18, 2008 8:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
How about this one (simple):
VORP
ARod: 62.4
Pedroia: 59.8
Plus/Minus (Adjusted to Runs)
ARod: 1.6
Pedroia: 12
So that’s about 72 runs above replacement for Pedroia and 64 for A-Rod. It’s quick and dirty, but “I dared,” and it’s a strong argument.
On top of that, that would suggest that Pedroia was quite possibly the difference between the Red Sox missing and making the playoffs, if that matters.
On top of that, you can look at A-Rod’s failure in high leverage situations, if that matters.
Pedroia winning over A-Rod is FARRRRR from a problem. He was quite arguably the MVP of the league, it’s not a stretch at all and I’m not sure where that belief comes form.
- the Huskies.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also: if you use Justin's stats presented by Sky at BtB, with +/- as the defensive portion.
Pedroia: 64 RAR
ARod: 64 RAR
So there, they’re still about the same. And still behind Sizemore’s 72, but not by a whole lot.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 9:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sizemore should have won
and its not even close really
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he has an argument for winning.
He was third on my ballot (behind Pedroia and Lee), and I’d have no problem at all with him winning.
I fail to see how it’s not close, though.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice argument...
Challenge met. However I will stand behind my A-Rod vote.
Damn, I’ll bet you are pumped for that Apple Cup this year aren’t ya?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 18, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Eeeeeeeewwwww
Pedrioa MVP? Distgusting choice.
"I would say that our gaping hole isn’t nearly as gaping as the A’s hole [was] or Mariner’s would be." - tyd3311
by lonestarJon on Nov 18, 2008 8:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
philkid3
i knwo you have the vorp, etc
pedroia (in the AL)
not in the top 10 in OPS+
not in the top 5 in XBH
10th in OPB
not in the top 10 in slg
not in the top 10 in OPS
3rd most AB in the AL
4th most PA in the AL
1st in runs
tied w/ ichiro for most hits
4th in TB
1st in 2b
not in top 10 in HR, RBI, BB, SB
4th most 1b in the AL
not in top 10 in OPS+
4th in runs created
not in the top 10 in adjusted batting runs
not in the top 10 in batting wins
3rd in the AL in times on base
not in the top 10 in offensive win %
2nd most sac flies in the AL
8th best power/speed # in the AL
3rd fewest ab/k
so basically you have a guy who hit a lot of singles, a lot of doubles and scored a lot of runs but thats about it
this means that
a) there was no clear cut winner (check)
b) the “best player” was on a team(s) that didnt make the playoffs
c) they voted for the hottest guy at the end of the game (outlined above)
yes, he is not THAT bad – as i first thought – but to say that hes the MVP is funny to me when hes not the best player on his own team i have a problem with it. when hes not the best 2b in his league i have a problem with it
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 18, 2008 9:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You didn't adjust for positional value or include defense.
Also, he was the most valuable second baseman in the league this year. Kinsler got hurt, we have to accept that.
But he was quite likely the best player on his team and arguably the most valuable player in baseball.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also. . .
. . . a lot of those stats are double dipping and/or limited in usefulness. You could streamline that list a lot and get the same information.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
“double dipped stats.” Gotta give him points for putting a bunch of stuff on his own (versus just stealing SABRstats; not all of have paid access to them [or understand all of them ((me))])).
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Nov 18, 2008 10:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don't think I've cited anything that you need to pay someone to look at.
Maybe A-Rod’s plus/minus.
But you can get a fine idea looking at “non-sabr” stats, you just don’t need to look at different versions of the same thing over and over, and all positions don’t have equal offensive value.
And a lot of stats aren’t too hard to understand. You can probably get a quick explanation if you ask, usually and a link to a more thorough explanation. That’s how I’ve learned over the years.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 10:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tough response for me
I was implying that kok’ing did a lot of work to put together a lot of stats that can be combined into SABRstats, so on the one hand I was telling him good job while telling you that I have to assume (since I’m dumb about SABR stuff) that I have to agree with you.
Hmmm, “And that happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm”.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Nov 18, 2008 11:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You definitely don't have to agree with me.
And I agree he deserves some credit, but he actually did, I would say, too much work.
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 11:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did Evan Grant really cite something called:
“on-base percentage with runners in scoring percentage”
by philkid3 on Nov 18, 2008 11:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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