Thursday a.m. things
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 6, 2008 9:05 AM CST
158 comments
Well, Michael Young has supposedly won the gold glove in the American League at shortstop. I talked about this last night, so I won't belabor it again this morning, other than to note that, for what it is worth, Young wasn't as bad this season as he has been in the past. He still wasn't good -- he definitely wasn't the best defensive shortstop in the league -- but he wasn't awful, as he has been in prior years.
Evan Grant's article this morning says that Jon Daniels and his group have spent about 90% of the time focused on pitching, with the other 10% devoted to finding a third baseman. Grant says Hank Blalock likely won't be able to play third base, and neither Casey Blake nor Joe Crede look like good fits among free agents.
Grant also says that, vis-a-vis Marlins pitchers, the Rangers are more interested in Anibal Sanchez and Ricky Nolasco than Scott Olsen.
Jeff Wilson breaks down the four Rangers catchers, with scouting reports for each of them, and mentions that the BoSox have talked about Saltalamacchia and Teagarden. The Boston Globe also mentions those two in connection with the BoSox.
The Detroit Free Press says the Tigers are interested in Gerald Laird, but don't have the starting pitching the Rangers want.
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Good for Young.
If nothing else, he has the respect of the managers and coaches in the AL.
Now he needs to get his damned bat back on line. His ’08 season at the plate was tough to watch.
by Athos on Nov 6, 2008 9:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if this raises
his trade value.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 6, 2008 9:11 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Rays
They need a defensive upgrade for Jason Bartlett at SS. He doesn’t have any Gold Gloves. Think they would give up Price or would we have to settle for McGee or Davis?
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Nov 6, 2008 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just take Hellickson
and cut your losses.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
DEAL!
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Nov 6, 2008 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And with a broken finger
just think what he’ll win once all his fingers are good.
by Chow Time on Nov 6, 2008 9:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Olsen
Newberg’s trade rumors this morning included a Laird for Olsen deal. I’d rather just keep Laird and ALL of his five tools.
by FuturePants on Nov 6, 2008 9:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I'd be all that upset
if Laird got us Olsen. Any of the other 3 and I wouldn’t like it though.
I just don’t think that makes sense because I thought FLA was looking to cut payroll, and Laird is the most expensive of the 4 catchers we have……
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, Laird for Olsen works
They’re not going to deal for Laird, and yes it’s because of the salary consideration.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
olsen
i’d rather have laird and either the rangers keep him or trade him somewhere else. Olsen does not appeal to me in the least. Looking at his numbers the guy will likely get lit up in arlington.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Nov 6, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I might want to trade Laird elsewhere too
It just totally depends on the return. What if all we can get from someone else is a bullpen arm? Give me Olsen and see what he can do with Maddux.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd rather keep laird
or even get a relief pitcher than trade him for a “project” pitcher that was very homerun prone in a pitchers park
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Nov 6, 2008 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that depends
What if said bullpen arm is better than Olsen? Cause Olsen really sucks. I agree with rentz, he’d get chopped into tiny pieces if he pitched in Arlington, Mike Maddux or no.
I do however, want to see Laird gone at all costs this offseason, because I just know that if he’s still here in 2009 he’ll do nothing but F up the playing time of Teagarden, or whichever of the young guys are left over after the offseason. If Olsen is the best we can do for Gerald, do it – but I’d rather have someone like, say Manny Delcarmen than Olsen if you can get him.
Just say no to Scott Olsen.
by lonestarJon on Nov 6, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
Well sure, i’d rather have Delcarmen too. But that’s my point — what if the best you can get is a Juan Rincon type?
I don’t think keeping Laird does you much good unless you deal 2 of the other catchers. If my only options are a crappy to decent reliever, Olsen, or keeping Laird — give me Olsen.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You undervalue Laird
He’s a top 10 catcher right now. His offense is average for his position while his defense is above average.
That’s worth more than Scott “The Fuck Up” Olsen. I’d like to think 1-5 could be enough to nab Delcarmen.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His VORP
is 7.5, 22nd among catchers.
by tyd3311 on Nov 6, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto
Top 10 in the AL might even be a stretch.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless...
Unless you’re going by Gerald Laird’s system for ranking catchers.
Can you believe it? They're bringing back the Five Dollar Footlong. That's right, the Legendary Depression-Era Porn Star is back!!!
by YourNameHere on Nov 6, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think top 15 if he can stay healthy isn't too much a stretch.
by philkid3 on Nov 6, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I too think he could be Top 15 in the A.L. if he’s healthy.
Can you believe it? They're bringing back the Five Dollar Footlong. That's right, the Legendary Depression-Era Porn Star is back!!!
by YourNameHere on Nov 6, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was 20th this year.
In Major League Baseball. By these numbers at Beyond the Boxscore. And that’s in 95 games. 15th, in the AL, if he’s healthy? Come on, where is this Laird hate coming from?
Give him as many games as he caught last year, or as many as Yadier Molina, and he pro rates to about 17 runs above replacement, and that puts him 16th in baseball. So top 15 in baseball isn’t reasonable? Really?
by philkid3 on Nov 6, 2008 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He got his chance in August
the month in which he recorded his greatest number of plate appearances, 97, and you know how he responded…?
.200 /.237/.333
I think he gets overexposed playing everday, and his numbers would regress with increased playing time.
by tyd3311 on Nov 6, 2008 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at who you responded to...
There’s no Gerald Laird hate here. Honestly. t ball said Laird’s a stretch to be a Top-10 catcher in the A.L., and then you responded with, "I think top 15 if he can stay healthy isn’t too much a stretch. "
Can you believe it? They're bringing back the Five Dollar Footlong. That's right, the Legendary Depression-Era Porn Star is back!!!
by YourNameHere on Nov 6, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really
I think he probably is a top 10 catcher in the AL, all things considered, but barely.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How?
Have you looked at lists of catchers in the AL before?
This is really bizarre. I remember emailing Adam last year about this board undervaluing Laird in the offseason. And yet, I see him being undervalued again this year. All things considered, he’s slightly above average at an important position, which has value.
And I flat out hate the guy down to the last snaggle in his tooth.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not just going on 2008 performance
Most here would rank Laird as 4th most valuable going forward on his own team. In 2008 he was definitely a top 10 AL catcher, but he sure wasn’t in 2007, and I’m not counting on it in 2009.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would rank him 4th as well
that’s more a credit to the potential stardom of the others than it is a knock on Gerald.
I’m not expecting decline for a couple of years. He turns 29 in a week, but there aren’t many innings on those knees.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's do this thing: Laird's '08 AL ranking.
According to Justin’s Value Rankings, which I really like.
1. Joe Mauer 60.9
2. Shoppach 33.0
3. Kurt Suzuki 32.1
4. Dionner Navaro 30.8
5. Mike Naoli 26.8
6. Pudgey 21.9
7. Rod Barajas 16.1
8. Jason Varitek 13.2
9. Gerry “OMFT” Laird 12.6
And when you consider the guys who didn’t get ranked cause of injuries (V-Mart, Posada) or cause they were kept in AA all season cause their team is run by a bunch of idiot apes (Weiters), I don’t know if Laird really was a top ten catcher in AL in ‘08 and I don’t know if I’d feel good proclaiming that he’ll be one in ’09.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 11:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fwiw
Napoli — 274 PA
If Shoppach, no V-Mart. If V-Mart, no Shoppach. As a matter of PA’s.
After looking at your link, these rankings go back to which valuation you prefer for defense. Some of these catchers were worse offensively than 1-5, and depending on metric preference, a couple could be overstated / understated defensively. I don’t know. I prefer an aggregate combination of metrics defensively, but what can you do, Huntressa?
For instance, Laird and Suzuki had nearly identical OPS, but I highly doubt that Suzuki’s defense is more than twice as good. Don’t you concur?
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 7, 2008 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And
I definitely added whatever the hell that was to my favorites.
As if I needed more spreadsheets in my life.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 7, 2008 12:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
Look at qualifiers.
I don’t give a shit who had a sick vorp in < 200 PA’s.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about VORPr (rate stat)
with a min of 300 PA, 18th among 29 qualifiers?
by tyd3311 on Nov 6, 2008 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine in and of itself
You omit several other variables from your argument. I love VORP — but it’s far from perfect.
Age, sustainability of current performance, health, cost, control.
Factor those in, filter your list, and get back to me.
Oh, and preferably, 400 PA’s? But if it hurts your case, I understand.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I say 400
because Laird got 380 due to injury and platoon.
My premise is that a team trading for Laird is not going to platoon him.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
381
Okay, forget the numbers.. you say we undervalue Laird, by value, I assume you mean in terms of what we could get back for him… 29 years old, never played a full season, average offensively, slightly above average defensively (?), good club house guy, under team control for 2 more years (?)…
I wouldn’t give up Scott Feldman for that. Frankie Fransisco? No. Josh Rupe? Now were talkin’.
380 min.. 15 of 21
by tyd3311 on Nov 6, 2008 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
So top 15 in MLB.
Now, if only 21 qualified … doesn’t that prove my point?
It is hard to control a catcher that can qualify, let alone, play better than a handful of those who did.
I would argue that of those 14 ahead of him, you could expect a couple to decline faster than Laird. Can you see where I’m heading with this?
Laird – Delcarmen; Laird – Bailey; that’s how valuable I think he is. If you can’t trade for an impact BP arm, or an unproven young starter, then you might as well tell him to be a backup, releasing him when his contract expires.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bailey
You suggested Laird and Boscan for Masterson, I think that is the type of deal that might get you Homer.
by tyd3311 on Nov 6, 2008 9:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird and Boscan for Bailey
would elate me.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
22 don't even qualify.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting that the Globe article
mentions Bowden and Bard — not Masterson.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 9:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez or Nolasco over Olsen
No brainer.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nolasco
That’s the guy the marlins have that is really interesting. I’d probably take him over greinke
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Nov 6, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But I'd be shocked
if they actually gave him up for less than something like Salty and two top young pitchers.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nolasco over Greinke
no doubt about it.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 6, 2008 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Greinke over Nolasco
AL vs. NL.
Fire Todd Dodge. Seriously. But in the mean time, SUCK IT WESTERN KENTUCKY! 1-8 baby!
by sprite on Nov 6, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
4 years of team control
for Nolasco as opposed to 2 for Greinke.
Nolasco > Greinke
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 6, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the window to trade for nolasco
has passed. move along people…
by clark on Nov 6, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
to Sanchez
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely!
they seem to have soured on him a bit. sanchez or perhaps miller…get ’em BEFORE the breakout season, people. Anyone can go buy google stock now, the smart ones hit it on the IPO.
by clark on Nov 6, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet we could snag him right now for Davis
but I wouldna do it.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but it's good to hear
that the Rangers are actually voicing that opinion and not settling.
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rays stuff
Tampa Bay manager Joe Maddon says don’t look for phenom David Price to be in the closer’s role next year. He’s expected to open in the rotation, which could allow GM Andrew Friedman the luxury of trading Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson to strengthen his club elsewhere. The Rays need a right-fielder.
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/11085804/3
I know this has been discussed before, but that seems like a potential match also. Murphy or Cruz, a mid level minor league pitcher, and a young zywica-style prospect for Sonnanstine?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 9:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That sounds good
On the condition that Sonnastine gets a less creepy gameday mugshot for 2009.
Just say no to Scott Olsen.
by lonestarJon on Nov 6, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BR's #1 Comp...
thru age 25… Big Kam Loe
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really think so
Unlike Loe, Sonnastine doesn’t walk everybody and his uncle, and he also garners a lot more strikeouts.
Career BB and K/9:
Loe (5 seasons): 3.22 BB/9, 4.71 K/9
Sonnastine: (2 seasons): 1.75 BB/9, 6.14 K/9
Also, Sonnastine has a 1.31 career WHIP whereas Loe has posted a WHIP below 1.4 just once in his career (2005). I don’t think Sonnastine and Kam are very similar at all, really.
Just say no to Scott Olsen.
by lonestarJon on Nov 6, 2008 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sonnanstine
i could be way off on him, but it seems like guys like him, high contact guys without high quality stuff, are capable of putting together decent seasons, but then smart clubs immediately market them because the chances of them repeating, when taking into account their “luck” catagories like BABIP, are minimal. Stay away from the Greg Smith’s and Andy Sonnanstine’s of the world…
by clark on Nov 6, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
murphy or cruz
plus a mid level pitcher plus a zywica style prospect? all for sonnanstine?
we have a bunch of guys in our system who project to be sonnanstine. no reason to trade valuable assets for him. a one for one with an extra OF, perhaps. but that’s about it.
by clark on Nov 6, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah probably too much
But by mid-level I meant someone like Schlact (sp?)….
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sonnanstine is really good:
tRA of 3.82, best on their starting staff. He had a tRA+ of 117, which makes him a number 2 starter. And despite playing in front of Tampa’s defense, he actually was unlucky. His FIP was 3.98.
He had a 3.35 K/BB ratio, which is really good. He also allowed only 1.72 BB per 9.
Sonnanstine is a good #2 or #3 starter. He might not throw hard, but he has such good control and secondary stuff that he is still an above average starter. He also doesn’t allow a ton of home runs and gets slightly more GBs than FBs.
I know this has been discussed in pretty great detail already on this board, but Sonnanstine is really valuable. If Harrison/Hurley/McCarthy/etc turned out to be anywhere near as good as Sonnanstine, I would be thrilled. I’d deal an OFer (Byrd or Murphy?) and a solid prospect (Ramirez? Obviously, not Andrus/Main/Holland/Feliz) for Sonnanstine.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 6, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
Finally someone agrees with me.
All this “E-Jac is better than A-Son” talk lately has made me like I’m taking crazy pills.
The guy is a very good pitcher. He’ll never be an ace, but he’s the kind of solid pitcher we need to be adding to our stable through trade and/or FA to supplement the aces we’re trying to develop.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Bartlett
was the best defensive SS in the AL last year IMO. Much as i love him, it’s silly to award MY for being a better defensive SS.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
by jcAustin on Nov 6, 2008 10:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking it's all a prank
And when Michael shows up to collect his award, Ashton Kucher will jump out and yell “punk’d!!!”
Because at this point, that’s really the only thing I can think of that would make this whole deal make sense.
by JimBonnick84 on Nov 6, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird for Pitching?
I’m not optimistic that we’ll be able to trade two catchers, and I’m definately not optimistic that we can trade two catchers for quality starting pitching.
If a team like Detroit is interested in Laird but doesn’t have the pitching to offer, then why not try to target other positions or prospects? All of these other teams who are supposedly willing to offer pitching for Salty, Teagarden, or Max are still there, and dealing Laird to a team like Detroit shouldn’t change the market all that much. Plus, Laird alone probably won’t net us much pitching wise, but should be able to fetch a nice prospect or two. Then, we can market Salty or Teagarden for the best pitching available.
We don’t have to get young major league pitching for Laird in order for it to be a good deal.
by cstorm15 on Nov 6, 2008 10:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Laird and Byrd
For Curtis Granderson?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Nov 6, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Drool
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I would do that in a heartbeat. The Tigers are so desperate for a catcher something like that might actually be plausible.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Nov 6, 2008 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I don’t think the Tigers make that deal.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Laird, Byrd, Borbon?
Gives them the OF for next year who could possibly garner draft pick compensation plus a CF for the future
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2008 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're not trading
Granderson, he’s very good and his contract is very reasonable for now. Ordonez and Sheffield would be more likely to be moved, not a match for TX really.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that deal
We’d have to sweeten the pot considerably. I just meant a catcher+ type of deal.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Nov 6, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
x
The Tigers are so desperate for a catcher something like that might actually be plausible.
No, they aren’t.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 6, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Upon my reflection
The package I considered similar expanded way too quickly. Upgrade the catcher and add a legit arm. But then that’s just counter-productive to the Rangers’ goals. I’m just letting my Granderson man-crush get in the way of reason.
I am the motherfucking shore patrol, motherfucker! I am the motherfucking shore patrol! Give this man a beer.
by TheBZA on Nov 6, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Serious?
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Good one, Ed.
But I don’t do it unless they throw in Verlander! ;)
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My heart just skipped a beat.
That would be so awesome. It would never happen but oh it would be awesome.
by philkid3 on Nov 6, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tigers Cutting Payroll
The Tigers have made no secret that they would like to cut some payroll, though they would most likely to foist Willis and Robertson onto some foolish team. How about Laird for Inge? Yes, Inge has two more years, but it is at a very reasonable $6.3 and $6.6 million. Yes, he has been pitiful with the bat. However, he is pretty good with the glove. Unfortunately he did not log a lot of time there last year, so I don’t know you much you would discount his stats. He had a better RZR than Longoria, though he did not make a lot of plays OOZ. Improving the infield defense will help the pitching and run prevention. I’ll leave this question to those with a little more time to look over the stats, is Inge good enough with the glove to offset his bat?
by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 6, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Inge
No thank you. I don’t think his glove is good enough to offset that awful bat. You might as well just stick Metcalf out there in that case.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
gagree
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Inge as the 25th man on this roster
if Cat departs, but trading him for Laird straight up is a loss on our end.
by Keynes on Nov 6, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
reasonable 6.3 and 6.6 million?
How is that reasonable for a player like him?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone think...
JD will get a deal done before he leaves today?
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 10:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
nah
the big trade will go down in December.
Jindal '12
by Longhorn on Nov 6, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I think it’s a bit of a coincidence that his big deals have gone down about the same time. Seems like that’s enough time to gauge the market and lay the groundwork for a big deal and I fully expect another one in the latter half of December.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More from the Boston Globe on Rangers' Catchers
Sox eyeing a couple of young Rangers catchers?
According to the Globe’s Nick Cafardo, it appears the Red Sox will talk with the Texas Rangers about their two young catchers, Taylor Teagarden and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, who could be in play if the Sox are willing to give up the right pitching prospect (likely Clay Buchholz or Michael Bowden). Saltalamacchia had an elbow strain at the end of the season and his winter-ball play will be delayed for about a month. The 6-foot-4-inch switch hitter is considered defensively raw, but he has great upside and the Sox like his makeup. Teagarden seems less available, though the Rangers have concerns about his injury history. Saltalamacchia is more raw in terms of his catching than Teagarden but his physical upside is greater, according to one major league scout at the GM meetings. Another scout said that Saltalamacchia reminds him of a young Jason Varitek at this stage in his development, with Saltalamacchia perhaps possessing a greater upside offensively. This season, Teagarden had 6 homers and 17 RBIs with a .319 average in 47 at bats with the Rangers. Saltalamacchia had a .253 average with 3 homers and 26 RBIs in 198 at bats.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/thebuzz/
Sounds like JD is driving a hard bargain….
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 10:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Adam
If the Rangers are unwilling to move Young to 3rd and are not interested in Blake or Crede, what would be a good option for 3B?
by brentash on Nov 6, 2008 10:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
EG with his trade rumor summary
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/11/market-match-whats-out-there-for-the-ran.html
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 10:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Max Ramirez for Miguel Cabrera, straight up
:)
by BuckyB on Nov 6, 2008 10:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't seem fair
they’d also have to include Percello
by Baseball North on Nov 6, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Coming off a down year, the motor issues remain, his body is still a huge issue, his defense has now officially made him a negative everywhere but DH and now he has a huge long term contract.
No way they’d admit defeat and sell low on him now, but I wonder if they regret trading for him right now?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s an inverted W. Get rid of him now before his scap explodes.
by Keynes on Nov 6, 2008 11:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Was that the play he got hurt on?
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't an inverted "W"
the letter “M”?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2008 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've often thought
that same thing. But, ‘inverted W’ is what all the cool kids are saying, so…
by Keynes on Nov 6, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The outer lines of an M are straight up and down
or at least they are when typed.
The outside lines of a W extend outward from the base, more accurately mimicking the motion pitchers like prior use.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The tigers are in need of a catcher
Is any of our catchers good enough to net Porcello from the Tigers. He is really young but if we got him in here he should be here by 2010 or 2011.
by CRUSHDAVIS on Nov 6, 2008 11:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
no
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is any of our catchers good enough to net Porcello from the Tigers.
No.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Porcello
He’s it. I mean, at this point, no other talent in their system really approaches his.
They paid huge cash for him. He’s going nowhere during Dombrowski’s tenure.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations Mike
it’d be nice if AJM could settle down with the negativity for once and celebrate the accomplishment. MY may not be a GREAT SS, but apparently, those with a closer look at their own SS and Mike during the 2008 year think he’s the top of the crop this year…and the stats apparently favor that, too.
I’m all about the future, but let’s celebrate the “now” and give Young the respect he deserves.
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 6, 2008 11:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Question
Should we have celebrated Derek Jeter’s defensive accomplishments when he won the Gold Glove?
Should we have celebrated Rafael Palmeiro’s defensive accomplishments in 1999?
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 6, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were a fan of the Yankees, sure...
but I hate the Yankees, and always embrace any chance to hate on them. So I’ll jump on the “Derek Jeter SUCKS defensively” bandwagon.
But as a fan of the Rangers, I have to admit even if it’s an “empty” award, if our players are called out by their peers or managers – to be an All Star, win a Gold Glove, etc. – I have to celebrate and congratulate.
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 6, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question for Adam
I am much more familiar with advanced pitching and hitting metrics, but I am far from an expert in defensive statistics.
Of course things like zone rating and fielding percentage tell a pretty limited picture of a players defensive ability, but what about Pinto’s probabilistic model of range? Based on that metric, MY was just slightly above average in 2008. Of course Young receiving the gold glove was a joke, but at least not as big of a joke as Nate McLouth or something. Where do you find +/-, or runs above/below average statistics? How accurate are those measures compared to say Pinto’s model?
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 6, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and just to add to the defensive statistics
I came across this:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p9BODtOllD4u0JrhtbUmILA&gid=1
They show Michael Young as about a run below average defensively. Kinda reiterates how ridiculous it is that a player who is literally the definition of average this year defensively can win a GG.
Also of note, this spread sheet shows at what positions the Rangers were above and below average in OPD (offense plus defense runs above average). Texas was generally strong everywhere, but way below average at 1st and 3rd. Hopefully Davis playing 1st all year will help makeup for our most glaring weakness at 1B. It also seems like signing Crede might make a lot of sense.
I am curious, though, how reliable DRS is for predicting defense, since it seems to just convert ZR, a pretty unreliable stat, into runs saved. Anyways, worth a look, nonetheless.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 6, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree...
…that Young wasn’t as bad this year as he has been historically. +/-, PMR, and RZR all agree on that.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 6, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Which stats favor MY as the top of the crop this year?!
by philkid3 on Nov 6, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this from Evan Grant:
He led the AL in fielding percentage (.984), which was second in the majors to Philadelphia’s Rollins. Young ranked fifth of eight qualifying AL shortstops in zone rating (.818), but led the AL in revised zone rating (.850), which attempts to refine the original formula for interpreting fielding efficiency. Young ranked just ahead of Philadelphia’s Rollins (.849). Realize that a lot of folks don’t buy into fielding percentage. But it, zone rating and revised zone rating seem to be the three closest things out there to definitive statistical evaluation of fielding.
Is it the best way to evaluate a fielder? Apparently not – I’m no expert either. But at least the stats seem to agree that he’s the best AL SS this year…
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 6, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
See that's the great thing about Evan
For all his great reporting, he does play favorites.
He’ll play dumb and use vapid stats to support his guy, regardless of those numbers’ meaning to him or others.
It’s like writing a term paper and taking a real small, general quote out of a source — for the sake of saying that you cited a relevant source (even if, as in Evan’s case, it’s a waste of space).
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fielding percentage is worthless.
It tells you nothing about the top of the crop, so let’s get that out of the way.
That Zone Rating aint bad, no sir. It’s also not the top of the crop, and there are better stats, anyway.
Revised Zone rating needs, NEEDS, to be coupled with Outs Out of Zone. That’s part of the design. He was 5th there, well behind Orlando Cabrera, who is not far behind him in RZR. These do not favor him as the top of the crop, and there are better stats, anyway.
So no, the stats do not seem to agree in any way that he’s the best AL SS this year, even using those stats. Grant used them terribly and, to borrow from a prominant poster’s sig, “for support, rather than illumination.”
Now, let’s a use a couple better stats that will work well in conjunction with RZR AND OOZ.
In David Pinto’s Probablistic Model of Range (which I don’t fully understand, admittedly) he ranks, I believe, 12th in the AL, though slightly above average. Not tops in the league.
Finally, what I feel is the best defensive metric available, +/-. He was -7, 27th in baseball. Not the top of the crop.
Grant using RZR but ignoring OOZ was attrocious and should be a serious hit to his credibility and also probably an indication of putting homerism ahead of objective reporting.
I’d be willing to go as high as “average” on MY this year, but the stats DO NOT favor him as “top of the crop this year.”
by philkid3 on Nov 7, 2008 3:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Quite honestly...
…I think that the fact that Grant is using ZR and RZR at all is to his credit. How many beat writers go beyond fielding percentage?
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 7, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
quite true
i really do admire that he’s trying to learn and use more “stathead” oriented stats.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Nov 7, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I do not by any means consider myself a stathead
I’ve learned more over the years, but I don’t rely on stats nor do I, most likely, use stats correctly “for illumination.” I guess my point is that there are stats that can help support the argument, and I read them, and that made me a believer. Now you’re going the other way with it, trying to disprove those original stats. And that’s cool. But what I have trouble with, is that Mike Young was GIVEN the award, and he earned it. Did he earn it by blowing away all shortstops in the AL this year? Apparently, with your stats in support, he didn’t. But even so I say celebrate the award instead of trying to tear him down for your own personal aspirations. For the time being. I understand that by winning the award, he now has more firepower to try to fend off the potential (and perhaps imminent) move to 3rd or elsewhere for a SS that either does field better or has the potential to (Andrus is still VERY prone to errors). I understand that upsets you. I understand we want to give our pitchers every chance to succeed. I understand that Mike Young isn’t the best athlete on the field. But I think he’s pretty damn good, and quite deserving in a crowd of less-than-stellar competition.
"Calmer than you are... "
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 7, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question to the board on minor league free agents being re-signed...
Does anyone know about the Rangers’ recent re-signings? It sounds like A.J. Murray, along with fellow minor league free agents Joselo Diaz, Adalberto Flores, Alfredo Gonzalez and Kevin Richardson are staying in the Texas Organization.
Can you believe it? They're bringing back the Five Dollar Footlong. That's right, the Legendary Depression-Era Porn Star is back!!!
by YourNameHere on Nov 6, 2008 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Okay, there's confirmation...
According to Baseball America, YourNameHere was correct in his assertion that the Rangers have re-signed Jose Diaz, Adalberto Flores, Alfredo Gonzalez, A.J. Murray, and Kevin Richardson.
Can you believe it? They're bringing back the Five Dollar Footlong. That's right, the Legendary Depression-Era Porn Star is back!!!
by YourNameHere on Nov 6, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think
there was any question that was true. Glad Murray is still around.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
AAAARRRRGHHH!
x
1/20/09 - The end of a error.
by Parman on Nov 6, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That should have been Aaarrrrrrrr!
As in: “Swab those decks, you scurvey dogs! Aaarrrrrrrr!”
by NorCalRangersFan on Nov 6, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
KLAW begins
Russ (Vancouver): Kinsler of Utley over the next 3 years? Same question for Joba and Price?
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:04 PM ET ) Utley. Probably Price because we’ve got a little uncertainty around Joba’s shoulder.
clayton Dallas: Do u now anything about this martin perez, lefty prospect for rangers? More upside than holland?
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:05 PM ET ) Yes, a lot more upside, but Holland is the better prospect for me right now because he’s so close and still has big stuff.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 1:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Austin (Fort Worth, TX): Are the Reangers actually going to do something, (trade a catcher for young pitcher) or is it just wishful thinking?
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:28 PM ET ) They’re going to trade at least one of the four catchers. I can’t imagine they get to March with more than three and I bet they’re down to two.
O and the link: http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=23438
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also had this:
Dan (Oak): Trevor Cahill vs Neftali Feliz…who has the higher ceiling and who has the higher probability?
SportsNation Keith Law: (1:58 PM ET ) Feliz has the higher ceiling, absolutely. Probability is close to even; Feliz could pitch right now out of a big-league pen, just airing it out and throwing some changeups, whereas Cahill is slightly more likely to work out as a starter. I’m thinking Feliz will be in my top 10-15 prospects overall when I do rankings.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And this
Will, Boston: Keith, glad you made it. Red eye back? With everyone high on Texas catchers can you say what each offers or rank them at least? Teagarden has got to be the best, hearing that they would want Bowden/Bucholtz for him right? Thanks
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:35 PM ET ) Bad redeye. About two rows behind me, there was a young girl, maybe 1.5-2 years old, who was up screaming for good chunks of the flight – I think the pressure in her ears was bothering her. Nothing you can do. 1. Teagarden 2. Ramirez 3. Saltalamacchia (I like his upside, but he was bad this year) 4. Laird. No one is commenting on whether Teagarden/Buchholz is actually on the table, but if I’m JD, that’s where I start.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marcos( miami, fl ) : Mr. Law, do you see the Marlins trading Olsen to the Rangers for ramirez or jarrod S. If so, which one is better?
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:46 PM ET ) I wouldn’t take a guy like Olsen, whose value has to be way down right now, for either of those catchers.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
Greg (KC): Hello Keith, I just read that Joe Posnanski said Micheal Young won the GG at SS, this is a joke along with McLouth…why even pay attention to the GG awards?
SportsNation Keith Law: (2:50 PM ET ) I don’t. Nor should you.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 6, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the 'tron
First time he took one (and right out of the queue, for anyone wondering about his patterns)
Hightower NY, NY: Speaking of playoff criticism, will the first round ever be 7-game series?
SportsNation Keith Law: (3:06 PM ET ) I hope not. I don’t want to have to watch playoff games on Thanksgiving, thanks.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rob (Alaska): Speaking of Pablo Sandoval, would a team be better off with a guy who also can play elsewhere as their #2 catcher than the no-hit, some-glove guys that usually get that spot? Doesn’t that buy teams an extra spot on the 25-man roster essentially?
SportsNation Keith Law: (3:15 PM ET ) Yes. But most managers wake up in a cold sweat at night at the thought of running out of catchers during a game, so it’s not likely to happen.
Max comes to mind, but I still don’t want to hamper his development by DHing him.
Obviously Saltalamacchia has no place on this team outside of C.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i am
austin from fort worth,tx. didn’t ask the ? someone is reading my brain
by austin p. on Nov 6, 2008 1:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
didn't mean to post that
im sure there are plenty of austin’s from fort worth who love the rangers
by austin p. on Nov 6, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But how many
love the Reangers?
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you better lay off the bear, buddy.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Nov 6, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+ Juan
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2008 7:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Joe Crede just a bad fit because he'll come at too high a price?
I sort’ve didn’t notice he was a free agent. I don’t know how much he’ll command, but I’d take him at his projected marginal win value or maybe even a little higher.
by philkid3 on Nov 6, 2008 4:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Price along with questions of his health along with questions about whether we want to bring a real live 3b in here for more than one season when we're gonna need to move FFace somewhere once Elvis is ready to enter the building.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very
bold statement.
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by t ball on Nov 6, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
***Slow clap***
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Rule 5? No…talk to the hand.
by thedirkatron on Nov 6, 2008 6:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
what a way to end a thread! Well done t ball. I’ll join the slow clap.
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."
-Tito Fuentes, after getting hit by a pitch.
by Haeger Champ on Nov 6, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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