Graduation Rates and ML Performances of Top-Ranked Prospects
If you prefer FanPosts that are short and relatively uncomplicated, I would recommend that you proceed no further with this one. If you like long posts with data tables and no clear conclusions, then feel free to spend the next ten minutes of your life trying to wade through what follows.
The Rangers had five players on BA’s 2008 list of baseball’s Top 100 prospects and will likely have 6-8 prospects on the 2009 list. Those who like to dismiss the importance of the minor leagues often use anecdotal evidence to suggest that outstanding prospects often fail to become productive major league players. To understand if there is truth behind the anecdotes, I evaluated the major league performances of players who were ranked by BA to be among the Top100 prospects in baseball prior to the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 seasons. I used ERA+ to evaluate the annual performances of the pitchers and OPS+ to evaluate the annual contributions of the hitters in years in which they accumulated at least 40 IP or 100 ABs at the major league level.
As will be described below, the data were compiled and evaluated in a variety of ways to estimate the success/failure rates for top prospects, how quickly the prospects begin to perform at above average levels, how prospects at different positions perform, and how rankings correlate with major league performance.
Two things worth noting before presenting the results are that:
(1) the data for players who were ranked multiple times between 2003 and 2007 were only used once in the analysis. I used the highest ranking that the player achieved to bin his data.
(2) youthful prospects who are still progressing through the minor leagues and have thus far failed to play in the major leagues were not used in the analysis.
Success/Failure Rate
259 players from the five Top100 lists that were used for this analysis have either failed to progress through the minor leagues or have had at least one major league season with 40 IP or 100 ABs. 30 of the 259 players debuted in 2007 or 2008 and averaged an OPS+/ERA+ of less than 90 in the ML season(s) that they qualified. Examples from this list of 30 players include Justin Upton, Phil Hughes, Eric Hurley, Homer Bailey, Luke Hochevar, Clay Buchholz, and Jonathan Sanchez. In my opinion, it is still too early to determine if any or all of these players will become productive major league players, so I eliminated them from the calculations described below. The remaining 229 players were used to estimate the success/failure rates for the prospects ranked in 2003-2007.
38 of the prospects (17% of the 229 considered) have failed to advance to the major leagues and are either out of baseball or struggling in the minor leagues. Another 8% of the 229 players have received playing time in at least three major league seasons and have an average ERA+ or OPS+ below 90. The remaining 75% of the 229 prospects considered have averaged an ERA+/OPS+ of at least 90 in their major league seasons. 133 players (almost 60% of the 229) have averaged an ERA+/OPS+ of more than 100 in the 1-5 major league seasons that they’ve had at least 100 AB’s or 40 IP. Based on ERA+/OPS+, 3 out of 4 highly ranked prospects graduate to the major leagues as productive players and 3 out of 5 perform at above average levels beginning with their 1st or 2nd year seasons.
# of Prospects % of Total
Failed to advance to ML 38 17
Averaged less than 90 ERA+/OPS+ 19 8
Averaged ERA+/OPS+ of 90-99 37 16
Averaged ERA+/OPS+ of 100 or greater 133 59
The average ERA+/OPS+ for many of the players considered in this analysis were negatively affected by relatively poor debut seasons. To address whether the highly ranked prospects develop into above average ML performers, I used the ERA+/OPS+ for each player’s best season to evaluate the same 229 players as above. In this case, 181 of the highly-regarded prospects (79% of the 229 considered) posted at least one season with an ERA+/OPS+ of 100 or greater, revealing that 4 out of 5 highly ranked prospects post above average seasons within their first 1-3 years in the major leagues.
Splitting the prospects into pitchers and position players reveals that of the 110 pitchers who qualified for this analysis, 82 (75%) have posted at least one season with an ERA+ above 100 and 89 of the 109 position players (82%) have posted an OPS+ above 100. At least for the seasons considered here, there appears to be a slightly better chance that highly ranked hitters will turn into above average major leaguers than pitchers.
Success/Fail Rates Correlate with Prospect Rank
When the prospects are considered based upon where they were ranked, a very interesting trend is revealed. As noted in the table below, more than 90% of the pitchers and hitters ranked among the Top25 graduate to the major leagues and post above average numbers. Approximately 80% of the pitchers and hitters whose ranking topped out in the 26-75 range posted an ERA+ or OPS+ of greater than 100 in at least one of their first three seasons. The successful graduation rates for pitchers and hitters falls to 69-75% for prospects ranked among the bottom 25.
Ranking ERA+ >100 (Total pitchers) OPS+ >100 (Total hitters)
Overall 75% (110) 82% (109)
Top25 91% (31) 94% (40)
26-50 79% (27) 80% (30)
51-75 82% (27) 82% (19)
76-100 69% (25) 75% (20)
The discrepancy in the success rates for the Top25 and Bottom25 prospects appears to be a reflection of the types of players that fall in the two categories. The Bottom25 in the Top100 lists are heavily populated with very young players in the lower minors while the Top25 mostly comprises players at AA and up. In fact, many of the players who made up the Top25 in the latter years used for this analysis were among the Bottom25 in the earlier rankings. Because I only used the highest ranked position for each player, the success rates for the lower ranked brackets were reduced relative to what they would have been had I used the numbers for each player in each of the years that he was ranked.
Annual Major League Performance
Of the prospects who graduate to the major leaguers, I was curious to know how well they perform in their rookie major league seasons and how much they improve during the course of their first five seasons. As with the success/fail rates above, I looked at this subject in two ways. Simply averaging the OPS+/ERA+ for all of the players with qualifying major league team reveals that the ranked prospects as a group start off as slightly above average major leaguers and progress to significantly above average producers by their third seasons (see table below).
Avg ERA+/OPS+ (StDev)
Yr 1 Yr 2 Yr 3 Yr 4 Yr 5
103 (32) 108 (32) 115 (30) 112 (28) 119 (31)
The standard deviations shown in parentheses above are relatively large, revealing that there is a broad range in performance among the players. In contrast to the success/fail rates described above, the variance in performance cannot be explained by differences between the players ranked among the Top25 and the players ranked farther down on the list. In fact, there is almost no difference between the major league performances of the players ranked in the Top25, 26-50, 51-75, and 76-100. Instead, the bulk of the variance is due to differences in OPS+ between players at defensive positions (SS, 2B, C, CF) and players at offensive positions (1B, DH, 3B, COF) as well as differences in the ERA+ of starting pitchers and relief pitchers. Below is a breakdown of the annual performances of players at the various positions.
Avg ERA+/OPS+
Position Players Yr 1 Yr 2 Yr 3 Yr 4 Yr 5 3 Yr Avg 5 Yr Avg ML Avg
1B/DH 16 109 131 126 126 122 122 123 115
2B 10 88 97 105 91 129 96 102 96
3B 17 103 109 108 131 145 107 119 109
C 14 88 97 102 113 113 96 103 86
CF 15 87 90 104 96 121 94 99 97
COF 33 99 103 112 100 109 105 105 109
SS 11 80 91 88 99 87 86 89 94
LHP 24 103 116 107 91 NA 109 NA
RHP 70 106 106 112 121 129 108 115
Reliever 16 157 141 172 151 NA 157
The reliever category was created to account for the late inning relievers whose ridiculous ERA+ numbers skewed the pitcher data. NA is used where too few players were available to provide an accurate estimate of performance.
The final three columns show the averages for the prospects at each position during their first 3 and 5 seasons along with the major league averages for the players at the corresponding positions during the 2007 season. For the most part, the prospects play slightly below the league average for their position during their rookie years. The prospects then out-perform the league average for most positions beginning in their 2nd year seasons and continue to improve thereafter.
Top Prospects to Star Major Leaguers
Top prospects are often projected to be future major league stars. To estimate how often this happens within the first five years of a top prospect’s major league career, I used the annual ERA+ and OPS+ for players who accrued major league service and calculated the percentage that posted great #’s (>119), above average #’s (100-119), below average #’s (80-99), and poor #’s (<80).
ERA+/OPS+ Yr 1 Yr 2 Yr 3 Yr 4 Yr 5
>119 23% 27% 42% 36% 46%
100-119 29% 32% 26% 31% 24%
80-99 28% 26% 18% 25% 19%
<80 20% 15% 13% 8% 11%
Beginning with their rookie years, the performance levels of highly ranked prospects are close to equally distributed between the four performance classes used. The performance distribution skews toward above-average levels by the players’ second seasons and is profoundly above average by their third seasons. Perhaps the most noteworthy number in the table above is the one that shows that 42% of the prospects who are ranked among BA’s Top100 and who manage to get to the major leagues post an ERA+ or OPS+ of 120 or greater in their third seasons. If you want to know where star major league players come from, look at BA’s lists of the Top100 rated prospects in baseball.
What does this mean for the Rangers?
Barring trades involving Ranger prospects or young major leaguers, it is possible that a future Rangers team could feature eighteen players who appeared on at least one BA Top100 list (table below). Using the results presented above, these current and future Rangers could be expected to perform in the major leagues at the levels presented in the right-hand column. As noted in the “Likelihood” column, there is a very good chance that most of these players will one day become at least solid major league players.
Player Projections: Highest BA Rank Likelihood ML OPS+/ERA+
Andrus 18 94% 89
Smoak Top25 94% 123
Davis* Top25 100% 123
Beltre Top50 80% 99
MaxRam Top50 80% 103/123
Teagarden 77 82% 103
Borbon Top100 75% 99
Feliz Top25 91% 108
Holland Top25 91% 109
Main Top25 91% 108
Perez Top25 91% 109
Ramirez Top50 79% 108
Font Top50 79% 108
Diamond 52 82% 157
Hurley 68 82% 108
Harrison 90 69% 109
Beavan Top100 69% 108
Boscan Top100 69% 108
* Davis’ inclusion is based on his likely ranking had he not been pushed to the major leagues in 2008.
The “Highest BA Rank” is either the highest rank that a prospect has already achieved or my estimates for high highly a player will be ranked during their minor league career.
MaxRam has two numbers in the OPS+ to address whether you think he will hit like a catcher or a 1B/DH.
Assuming the players reach the minor league ceilings projected above and the minor league players advance through the minors at a rate of 1-2 levels per year, then the 2011 Rangers line-up, rotation, and bullpen could look like:
Lineup ML Season OPS
Kinsler (2B) 6th 125
Young (3B) 11th 100
Hamilton (RF) 5th 130
Smoak (1B) 2nd 131
Davis (DH) 4th 126
MaxRam (C) 4th 126
Murphy (LF) 5th 100
Borbon (CF) 3rd 104
Andrus (SS) 2nd 91
Rotation ML Season ERA+
Holland 3rd 107
Feliz 2nd 106
Main 2nd 106
Harrison 4th 91
Hurley 4th 121
McCarthy 6th 100
Bullpen ML Season ERA+
Francisco(?) 7th 130
Madrigal 4th 120
Wilson 6th
Diamond 2nd 141
Rupe 4th
Hunter 3rd
Strop 3rd
Kiker 2nd
Feldman 6th
Murphy 2nd
By 2011, Beltre, Perez, Boscan, Beavan, and others will likely be at AA or AAA and ready to step in if needed. A great offense coupled with above average pitching almost certainly equals playoff contention.
27 recs |
102 comments
Comments
spurdynasty
Your level of effort in your posts is unmatched. Touche
"Congrats Rangers fans, you just found your replacement for Mark Teixeira. Just a crazy, crazy steal." -Goldstein
by Plum on Nov 9, 2008 4:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Concur
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 9, 2008 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you just blew my mind
Yes we can.
Yes we have. (late 90's)
Yes we will (2009,2010,2011 baby!)
by gossamer on Nov 9, 2008 4:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is absolutely beautiful
I just hit print and printed this out. I just can’t deal with this now.
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Recs
How could anybody read this and not rec it up?
by phina on Nov 9, 2008 4:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Its worth a rec
It’s a thought out anaysis and definitely worth a read. No one is saying it is the most accurate thing every written but it is worth a rec so it doesn’t get pushed down below some new catching diary or a question about Tex’s fan appeal
by phina on Nov 9, 2008 8:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you jealous or something?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 10, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seems that way,
doesn’t it?
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
by DJCahill on Nov 10, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Should i feel bad that I understand this .....
have you ever thought about working on a linear or non-linear algorithm as a search function to determine the probability of making the mlb depending on all sorts of varaiables?
I just don’t have the time right now to attempt to come close to begin even coming up with the parameters, but maybe we could split it up and go from there
by laxtonto on Nov 9, 2008 4:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the offer, lax
As you know, doing what you suggest will require a database that contains in-depth statistics for all minor leaguers. Perhaps we could pilot this with a smaller dataset comprising a test group of ~50 players who made it to the majors and a control group of a couple of hundred players that failed to make it to the majors. Let me know how to contact you and we can discuss.
One thing that did occur to me while reviewing the information that I used for this FanPost is that you can be surprisingly accurate in predicting the major league performances of highly regarded prospects. It seems that the processes developed at BA and BP have become sophisticated enough that they can select the players, injuries notwithstanding, who are going to survive the minor league development process and become productive major leaguers. A project that I’ve entertained is using win-shares to estimate the value of prospects before and soon after they graduate to the majors. You could use that information to create a formula that would describe what prospects you should consider giving up in a trade for veteran.
by spurdynasty on Nov 9, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ive got something for you to read at you leasure,,,
http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/bitstream/2097/149/1/GaryBrentJohnson2006.pdf
EVALUATION AND RANKING OF MINOR-LEAGUE HITTERS USING A STATISTICAL MODEL
I found that one day, read through a few times, and was considering playing with it.
I am interested what you or anyone else that reads it thinks.
by laxtonto on Nov 9, 2008 8:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
autorec
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 9, 2008 4:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
autorec???
is that like a secret java script command or some hidden feature I need to know? Do share.
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't understand why you have to do all of this work to tell us that our farm system is amazing.
Again, why are you using ERA + as the measuring stick?
Why set the bar at 40 IP or 100 ABs? Why not more? Why not less?
Who are you talking to that dismisses the minor leagues with anecdotal evidence? For God’s sake, stop talking to them.
Why did you remove Sanchez, Hughes, Buchholz, Hurley etc. from the equation? Doesn’t that discriminate? Isn’t it possible that one of our pitching prospects could flop like Bailey?
Why are you using Baseball America’s Top 100 Prospect list as a starting point in prospect rankings? I understand BA is a reputable source for this type of information. But is it “the” source?
Thomas Diamond projects to have an ERA + of 157? That has to be a typo.
Why is Max Ramirez our catcher in 2011? Where is Teagarden?
Your series of fanposts would seem to indicate that you are trying your hardest to find an “average” ETA for our prospects, or an “average” ETA as to when our prospects will make contributions leading to a playoff run.
The truth is not every prospect is the same. Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Jarrod Saltalamacchia… Homer Bailey… these were some highly touted prospects… last year, the year before, all of whom who could still improve, I suppose… but, using BA’s Top 100 Prospects list as a reference point for their projections as a big-league player is a little short-sighted, I think.
I guess finding the mean (average) helps in formulating a clearer hypothesis… but, ultimately, I think you’re trying to find an easy answer for something that’s impossible to define.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 5:13 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
do you not believe in the law of probabilities or using statistics to forecast?
because your critiques are pretty ridiculous otherwise. And if you are critiquing probability, then you don’t need to renew them every article. A statement like “not every prospect is the same” completely misses the mark in what he is trying to do. Everybody knows not every prospect is the same.
And you clearly didn’t read the article, otherwise your Thomas Diamond question would be answered for you.
I also don’t understand why you asked why he removed Bailey, Hurley from the equation when he tells you pretty clearly why he did.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 9, 2008 6:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well done?
I’m simply questioning the variables. Nothing wrong with that.
Of course, he explained why he removed them. But why remove the ‘questionable’ subjects of the experiment, and only work with the other 229? I’m not a scientist, but does that not fudge the numbers a bit?
Is that still too “ridiculous” of a question for your standards?
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 7:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
An explanation for removing the thirty
One thing that I noticed when reviewing the data that was used for this FanPost is that the performances of most prospects go up during their first 2-4 years. Some prospects start out performing at above average levels and continue to improve whereas others start out as slightly below average and then become above average performers.
Most of the players with at least three years of major league stats who were below average in their first year or two were posting above average numbers by their second or third season. A few of the players started out below average and remained below average through 3 or 4 years. I could predict with relatively low accuracy which of the 30 players in their first year or two will become productive and which ones will fail, but it would be speculation and potentially inconsistent with the rest of the data. For that reason, I felt better presenting data that did not require that I speculate. That’s probably the scientist in me.
It is impossible he thirty players for whom I had only 1 or 2 years of data
by spurdynasty on Nov 9, 2008 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you are truly questioning the variables, fine.
i don’t think you’re right but that’s at least a debatable matter.
for instance, he didn’t remove them because they are questionable, he removed them because the data set has high variance. however, it also seems like you tried to cobble together a list of the other complaints that weren’t really good complaints at all. (Why are you using ERA+ as a measuring stick. What?).
but, you also have something not productive to say about each one of spursdynasty’s diaries and it seems like you have an irrational hatred of his diaries because they have a lot of analysis. particularly maddening since his are some of the few diaries that are actually full of baseball analysis – saying nothing of what you do with your diaries.
I especially like how feign ignorance at trying to figure out the point of these posts. are you really that dense?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 9, 2008 11:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did it ever occur to you that ERA + might not be as efficient a statistic as tRA or tRA regressed?
We talked about this in the last thread.
Pretty slick using that argument for a spring-board into what you really wanted to say. I will politely disagree, though. I feel my other points are just as valid.
I suppose you think the rec hatred and my “maddening” fronts stem from some sort of jealousy… as you compare them with my diaries…
But then there’s this:
I especially like how feign ignorance at trying to figure out the point of these posts.
Enlighten me asshole. What are the point of these posts?
That our farm system is deep? That our farm system will pay dividends?
I don’t disagree.
I appreciate the analysis. However, I find it laughable that most around here would just accept this research as totally awesome without questioning some of the techniques and methods applied to it.
If that bothers you, I’d advise you not say another word to me and be on your way.
Yes, fuck you.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 11:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
judging by the post below
you apparently missed the point of this post so I apologize.
it isn’t just “we don’t need to trade for greinke.”
It is, “we have a lot of good prospects, but what can we really expect from them?”
If you think this question doesn’t deserve a few fan posts, go look at comments by Josey et al basically saying “I’ll believe it when I see it” and “JD hasn’t done shit.”
But evaluating JD’s talent gathering is just one application. This sort of analysis serves as a predictor of what we can expect from the farm, sans any major trades, in a few years. It can also prove the point, as you said, that staying pat would probably work out just fine.
But, I think more usefully, it can set a baseline of sorts in terms of seeing how our club should have turned out in 2013 and if it didn’t turn out close to that, then maybe gives more ammo to the argument that our later minor league development/early major league development sucks.
Now, tRA over ERA+ seems like an interesting gripe but I can’t imagine that it changes the analysis substantially at all? Do you think it does? Can you tell me why theoretically it would before proving that it does?
This still seems like your pointing out quibbles unless you are basically saying that spursdynasty is massaging the data to prove the hypothesis that he already had. I have yet to see any legitimate criticism from you that would verify this. There are at least 5 different “accepted” ways of evaluating a pitcher’s value – any type of analysis like this you could just say that the author should have used one of the others. Unless you have a specific reason, that doesn’t detract from the overall merit of the study.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 10, 2008 1:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Clarifications:
I didn’t miss the point of this fanpost.
I think the underlying theme with spurdynasty’s series is that a little patience will eventually pay off. Look at the “Value Of An Ace” fanpost. Wasn’t that a reaction to the cries for the Rangers to make a deal?
I am of the opinion that the Rangers can make a deal without mortgaging their future.
tRA and ERA +… Dirkatron brought this up in the last fanpost… is ERA + an efficient tool in projecting these numbers? I don’t think it is. My question was more “why are you continuing to use this”… instead of “why can’t you see that you’re using a flawed metric to find your answer.”
I’m still a newbie with tRA… but I know this much… it neutralizes park factors and defense to truly gauge a pitchers’ performance.
I’ll use Joe Saunders as an example because he’s the flukiest example I can come up with off the top of my head.
ERA + : 128
tRA : 5.67
Saunders is no prospect, granted… but does that comparison not make you raise an eyebrow?
As far as the rest of my gripes… that’s your problem. If I’m not asking educated questions, you can either speak up or move on.
The question I asked regarding Buchholz, Hurley and Hughes… the guy spelled it out for me in his response, better than he did in his fanpost. No big deal.
I’d still like to know why he feels Ramirez is our catcher in 2011 and not Teagarden. Is that a dumb thing to ask?
So long as you know, I’m not the only one asking questions…
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the constructive post, oc
ERA+ vs tRA
ERA+ is park- and league-adjusted so it does provide a reasonably normalized measure of pitching performance. As has been pointed out, ERA+ does not eliminate the impact of team defense and thus fails to place pitchers on a completely even plane. For what it is worth, a quick review of annual pitcher rankings using either tRA or ERA+ provides remarkably similar outcomes. There are outliers, of course, (you found Saunders) but if you compare a list of pitchers ranked by ERA+ to a list of pitchers ranked by tRA, you’ll find that the lists are very similar. I would be interested in reading a FanPost that compares ERA+, FIP, and tRA. Perhaps you’ll have the time one day to do such a study.
I chose to use ERA+ instead of tRA or FIP for two reasons:
(1) ERA+ presents data that correlate roughly with OPS+. That allowed me to combine stats from both hitters and pitchers to incresae the number of datapoints that I could use to assess the success rate and annual performances of the prospects. In contrast, tRA presents data that looks like ERA (3.52, for instance) that does not have a corresponding stat for hitters.
(2) In an attempt to answer an unrelated question, I had created a database of ML stats that I had downloaded from Baseball Reference. Baseball Reference has neither FIP nor tRA and I didn’t have the time or the energy to build a new database.
Teagarden vs Ramirez
I am in the minority on this but I don’t think that Teagarden’s bat is going to allow him to stick as a full-time major league catcher. I saw Teagarden in AAA a few times this year and I was disturbed by how often he swings and misses. Major league pitcers are going to pick up on that and the extremely high walk-rate that he enjoyed in AAA is going to plummet. I suspect that Teagarden’s batting line is going to look something like 220/300/360 and I don’t see how the Rangers can justify keeping that in their line-up every day.
As for your other questions:
40 IP and 100 ABs allows you to pick up relief pitchers and part-time position players without getting players who were September call-ups. I tend to discount September stats and preferred to avoid adding data from players who played mostly in September.
Dallas sports columnists, radio personalities, and some posters on this blog have a tendency to discount prospects because they can think of a few examples of prospects who flopped. Frankly, I thought that the fail rate for prospects would be much higher than what I found based on my own tendency to remember the failures and forget the successes.
I used BA because they have the longest running, and most consistent collection of Top100’s in the industry. I chose 2003-2007 for the following reasons:
(1) I wanted to restrict my data analysis to something that was manageable (gathering and compiling data for 500 prospects was a chore; I didn’t want to increase that number),
(2) The processes and tools that BA (and others) have for selecting prospects have become more sophisticated during the last 5-10 years, so I wanted to use a series of years that was relatively recent,
(3) To increase the major league data that I had (and thus its reliability), I needed to go back at least a couple of years so that the prospects would have had enough time to graduate to the major leagues.
As you can see, it takes a bit of bandwidth to explain the basis for the research. Your questions are a small sub-set of the things that have to be considered in designing a research project like the one that resulted in this FanPost. I hope you’ll forgive me for not trying to explain everything in the original write-up.
For future reference, I don’t have a problem explaining the basis for my assumptions or process, so please feel free to ask questions. Likewise, I don’t mind criticism of the FanPosts; part of the reason that I post here is to get feedback from others that might alter my view on the topic. However, I would appreciate it if you could ask questions or provide criticisms in a constructive manner. Your posts that seek to discredit the work without providing logical reasons why tend to turn people off and certainly limit my willingness to engage in a dialogue.
by spurdynasty on Nov 11, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I loved this read,
BTW. Thanks.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Nov 11, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+ 1,000,000
REALLY smart AND a gentleman.
A true gem he is.
Congrats. on the 22 RECS also.
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Nov 11, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What can I say... you've won me over.
In a nutshell, I think the root problem I have with this fanpost is that… it seems like a bit of a stretch to “forecast” how good these prospects will be, based on a rankings system that isn’t error-proof.
Obviously, injuries, player make-up, coachability… things like that… play a significant role in determining just how far a player will go.
Look at the McCarthy’s of this world. No injuries whatsoever, highly regarded, and suddenly he’s become an afterthought. I would assume guys like Clay Buchholz and Phillip Hughes are one more bad season away from becoming busts themselves…
Sure, it’s a fun exercise to predict just how good these players will be… but, part of me believes (and I don’t mean to be an ass about it)… that a lot of people around here are getting overly ambitious with this farm system. And who wouldn’t?… Especially considering the volume of players we have.
My argument would be… none of it matters if it doesn’t translate into big-league success. If that’s the pessimistic way of approaching, then I stand guilty as charged. I just have a little trouble believing that the Felizes and Hollands of this world are destined for success… because a class of prospects before them panned out.
In my 18, 19 years of being a Rangers fan, I have seen very little to convince me that this team has a clue when it comes to pitching. I have every right to remain skeptical… regardless of what Sickels thinks, or Goldstein, or Baseball America… or anyone else.
I just won’t say anything next time.
You’ve been a trooper through all this, and I applaud you for it.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i alluded to this later in the thread
but high ranking rangers prospects have been having a lot of success lately – granted, for other teams.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I point to Weaver, Santana and Saunders...
None of them were Top 25 prospects… all of them pitched well this year considering they didn’t have much run support… (most of the season)… Even if Saunders season was a fluke, the team got it done for him.
What about Slowey, Blackburn and Baker? How did they rank as prospects?
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't mean that
higher ranked prospects can’t also succeed.
I don’t really understand the point you’re making.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a prospect can be successful, regardless of where they rank on a Top 100 list.
The No. 72 prospect can make the same contribution as the guy who’s ranked No. 4… if not more…
I think that’s what I’m trying to say, but I’m starting to get confused myself.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ranking vs ML performance
There is actually very little correlation between where a prospect ranks in the Top100 and how they perform as major leaguers. The only statistically significant difference between the Top25 and the Bottom25 prospects from the 2003-2007 lists was the rate at which the players successfully transitioned to the major leagues. And as I mentioned in the post, that might just be a anomaly cuased by the fact that I eliminated all but the highest ranking for each of teh prospects that showed up on multiple Top100 lists.
by spurdynasty on Nov 11, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahahaha
You better be getting paid for this shit. Some way or another.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 11, 2008 10:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I comment about it below
But I think, as you seem to, that penciling in Holland, Feliz, and Main in the top 3 spots in the 2011 rotation is setting oneself up for disappointment.
I have nothing against any of those guys in particular, but I just feel that if we get a #2 starter and a top notch reliever out of those three, then we are doing pretty good.
And thinking about it some, I realized that as good as that proposed 2011 team looks on paper, it really depends on those elite pitching prospects panning out.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 11, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Feliz have it in him to succeed as a starter, is my concern.
This is another reason I think the Rangers should be talking to the Royals.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 11, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what people said about DVD
DVD looks like they yielded 2 #2-3s and maybe a reliever.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 11, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, oc
I just won’t say anything next time.
I would prefer that you continue to speak up and question or criticize the work that is presented. The "What is an ace worth?" FanPost from several weeks ago happened because of a discussion that you and I had. The world would be a far less interesting place if we all agreed and I guarantee that the rate at which we explored new ideas would be far slower than it is when there is disagreement and cordial discussion.
In all honesty, this FanPost was never intended to forecast the future ML performances of the Ranger prospects. I just tacked that on at the end because I had the data in front of me and I liked that it provided some Ranger-centric information that could spur discussion. As you have pointed out, the numbers that I listed for the Rangers prospects are simply averages for other, often very different, players and they are unlikely to accurately match how the future Rangers will perform.
For what it is worth, the standard deviations for the annual positional performances range from about 15 to 25. Assuming a normal distribution, that means that ~70% of the players considered in this study performed with an OPS+ or an ERA+ that was within 15-25 points of the average presented in the various performance tables. Using Justin Smoak to make these numbers more obvious, this analysis suggests that in his second year in the big leagues, Smoak has an ~70% chance of posting an OPS+ between 110 and 150 since the average Top25 ranked 1B has historically posted an OPS+ of 130 with a standard deviation of 20. There is also an ~15% chance that he will have an OPS+ above 150 and an ~15% that he will OPS+ below 110. Where Smoak actually falls in that range will likely depend on the things that you mentioned (injuries, make-up, coachability).
For me, one of the key revelations from this study was that 80% of the prospects considered in this study posted an OPS+ or ERA+ of 100 or more in at least one of their first three major league seasons. This suggests that there is a very high likelihood that most, but not all, of the Rangers prospects will become successful major leaguers. As above, I’ll use a Ranger-centric example to illustrate what this means. Assuming the Rangers have 7 prospects ranked in this year’s BA list of the Top100 prospects, the odds that all seven will post an OPS+/ERA+ in at least one of their first three major league seasons is 15. The odds that 6 of the 7 post above average numbers is over 30 and the odds that 5 of the 7 become above average major leaguers in their first three years is greater than 50%. You can be pessimistic,but odds are that you will be watching a bunch of these guys on TV in a few years.
You mention McCarthy as an example of a failed prospect. Technically, he had a successful transition to the majors (ERA+ of 111, 101, and 93 in his first three seasons). If you are looking for all-stars among the prospects, it is noteworthy that nearly 50% of the prospects used in this study posted an OPS+/ERA+ of 120 or greater in at least one of their first three seasons. Using the example of the 7 Rangers prospects above, that means that there is a greater than 50% chance that at least 3 Rangers will post an OPS+/ERA+ above 120 in at least one of their first three seasons.
In regard to Feliz and Holland, if you assume that they are both Top25 prospects, then the odds that they both flop are less than 1% while the odds that they both successfully transitions to the majors is 80. There is then an ~50 chance that one performs at an all-star level and a 25% chance that they both perform at an all-star level within their first three years.
In the end, you can choose to view these prospects, these odds, and this team as an optimist or a pessimist. I am not here to suggest that either is right or wrong.
by spurdynasty on Nov 11, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Botched text
I just noticed that the response above lacked a lot of teh symols that I put in. Here is another attempt at the last few paragraphs:
For me, one of the key revelations from this study was that 80% of the highly ranked prospects posted an OPS+ or ERA+ of 100 or more in at least one of their first three major league seasons. This suggests that there is a very high likelihood that most, but not all, of the Rangers prospects will become successful major leaguers. As above, I’ll use a Ranger-centric example to illustrate what this means. Assuming the Rangers have 7 prospects ranked in this year’s BA list of the Top100 prospects, the odds that all seven will post an OPS+/ERA+ in at least one of their first three major league seasons is 15. The chances that 6 of the 7 post above average numbers is over 30 and that 5 of the 7 become above average major leaguers in their first three years is greater than 50%. You can be pessimistic, but odds are that you will be watching a bunch of these guys on TV in a few years.
You mention McCarthy as an example of a failed prospect. Technically, he had a successful transition to the majors (ERA+ of 111, 101, and 93 in his first three seasons). If you are looking for all-stars among the prospects, it is noteworthy that nearly 50% of the prospects used in this study posted an OPS+/ERA+ of 120 or greater in at least one of their first three seasons. Using the example of the 7 Rangers prospects above, that means that there is a greater than 50% chance that at least 3 Rangers will post an OPS+/ERA+ above 120 in at least one of their first three seasons.
In regard to Feliz and Holland, if you assume that they are both Top25 prospects, then the odds that they both flop are less than 1% while the odds that they both successfully transitions to the majors is ~80. There is then an ~50 chance that one performs at an all-star level and a 25% chance that they both perform at an all-star level within their first three years.
In the end, you can choose to view these prospects, these odds, and this team as an optimist or a pessimist. I am not here to suggest that either is right or wrong.
by spurdynasty on Nov 11, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the variables should be questioned
I’m at the plate seeing the curve ball coming with the questionable being removed.
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore, I read the fanpost top to bottom.
The point on Diamond was more of a bad joke (I’m not high on him as a starter or a reliever).
I’m aware I made some rather obvious observations, but I’d rather point that out than closing my argument with “autorec.”
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see the need to always criticize his work
he obviously puts thought into it and it’s worth a read.
What’s wrong with that?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 9, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone has to be the voice for the "trade-for-pitching-now"-party.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get what you're saying
you can trade for pitching and still have a ton of talent. I think that’s even more clear after reading his post.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 9, 2008 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Spurdynasty is enamored with the quantity and quality of our prospects; to the point that he feels none of them should be moved.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 9, 2008 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the record, I am not opposed to trading prospects
Teagarden for Buchholtz? Sign me up!
MaxRam for Anibal Sanchez or Miller? Mui bien!
Saltalamacchia for Bailey or Hughes? Fantastic!
Do you need to add Kiker or Poveda or Font or NeRa to make one of these deals work? I have no problem with that.
Davis or Andrus + Harrison or Hurley + Saltalamacchia for Greinke? No thanks. Who in their right mind will trade 3 players with an 80% chance of being above average to significantly above average for 4-6 years for 2 years of a pitcher who could be an ace? Aces are nice but their primary value is in getting you through the playoffs, not in getting you to them. And the Rangers aren’t likely to be strong contenders in 2009 anyway.
So your rebuttal should be – trading for Greinke allows you to sign him to a long-term contract. And my response? If you are looking to sign an ace to a long-term contract, why not go out and sign one of the free agents that are available this year? Or next year? Why give up valuable assets when you don’t have to?
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon man... the pitchers on the free-agent market aren't worth the risk.
We’ve been over this… if the Rangers want a pitcher of Grienke’s caliber they’re going to have to overpay, even for two years.
I agree with your ‘ace’ assessment; hell, I don’t even think Greinke is an ace… not yet.
But, he is a consistent pitcher. Home-run prone? Yes, but a strike thrower. Strikeouts are good. We haven’t had a strikeout pitcher in forever. What a concept… take the ball out of play, and suddenly your defense stops making errors.
Trips to the DL?… None in the last two years, if I’m not mistaken. That alone makes him better than any pitcher we’ve thrown out there in that same time frame.
And lastly… what better pitcher can you think of to bring Holland and Feliz along for the ride than Zack Grienke?… A guy who has already fought his demons, is only a couple of years older, and who already fits in at the top-of-the-rotation.
Does anybody not think that the pressure on Holland and Feliz to succeed quickly will be heavy?
Boom, taken care of.
Otherwise, what do you have?… Chris Davis as your DH?… Another power lefty?
No thank you… I’ll roll with Max to break up the line-up.
Hurley in your rotation? We already have a couple of mid-rotation arms to choose from.
And Salty?…
That’s a lot of control to give up for two years of Greinke. But, I am strongly convinced it can be done without giving up Holland or Feliz (who might not even be successful as a starter, for Pete’s sake!).
If that’s still not enough, an expendable Nelson Cruz is the tipping point.
Now, the Royals are winners. The Rangers pitching gets better… the line-up takes a hit… but you retain the goodness you already have with Smoak, Andrus and Borbon on the coattails.
When Greinke sees how much of a difference he makes, he’ll sign an extension.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 10, 2008 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i dont post here alot,
but you need to get over yourself…
by blalock84 on Nov 10, 2008 12:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Greinke as much as the next guy
And the trade scenario is entirely realistic. GM’s typically give up three solid prospects/young major leaguers for one proven pitcher. And as near as I can tell, the GM’s that give up multiple highly regarded prospects for a year or two (or 5!) of a proven pitcher invariably live to regret the decision. Just look at the math on the hypothetical deal for Greinke.
Rangers get Greinke, who posts the following in 2009 and 2010:
ERA+ – 130 (2009) and 135 (2010)
Win-shares – 25 (2009) and 27 (2010)
Royals get Davis, Hurley, Saltalamacchia who post the following in 2009-2012:
Davis
OPS+ – 120 (2009), 125 (2010), 130 (2011), 130 (2012)
Win-shares – 21 (2009), 24 (2010), 26 (2011), 26 (2012)
Hurley
ERA+ – 90 (2009), 98 (2010), 105 (2011), 105 (2012)
Win-shares – 7 (2009), 10 (2010), 12 (2011), 12 (2012)
Saltalamacchia
OPS+ – 95 (2009), 100 (2010), 103 (2011), 103 (2012)
Win-shares – 9 (2009), 11 (2010), 12 (2011), 12 (2012)
If you can agree that these numbers are at least in the ballpark of what can be expected for the four players playing full time in the years described, then the Rangers would be swapping 37, 45, 50, and 50 win-shares in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012 for 25 and 27 win-shares in 2009 and 2010. Even if the Rangers sign Greinke to a long-term deal, there is essentially no chance that he will match the cumulative performance of the three players for whom he was hypothetically traded.
So what am I missing? Why is it okay to pay double what someone is likely to be worth to your team?
If you’re hell-bent on trading Davis, Saltalamacchia, and Hurley because you have their replacements lined up, why not use them in separate deals to get unproven pitchers with the same upside as Greinke but with more years of control? The Rangers have a couple of years before they will be legitimate contenders. The statistics say that most highly regarded prospects pan out and that nearly half of them become all-star caliber by their 3rd or 4th season. In my opinion, it is better to roll the dice on two or three talented but unproven pitchers and hope that you hit on most of them than it is to trade for one proven commodity and hope that he doesn’t get injured or sign elsewhere when his contract is up.
who for the sake of this exercise, I will assume signs a four year deal to remain with the Rangers.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 1:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Spurdnasty gets an erection on all the prospects we have
Hell, I do too. Most all agree we’ve got a bunch of studs. But we do need to trade some of our top prospects. I don’t see how in the hell we can keep all these top prospects we have and expect to get to the WS by 2010 without atleast trading some. Most of our top prospects are so young that you would have to be Nostradamus making a prediction in 2012- 2013 to think we could get to the WS on just the top prospects we have.
And don’t forget the Doomsday Mayan calendar for the end of the world is on Dec 21 2012
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good grief... you just keep farting out gold!
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 12, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
How far you’ve fallen …
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
Don’t overestimate yourself.
“He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player.” – Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 9, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 12, 2008 9:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, decent
but congratulating HH on some lame-ass jokes?
I don’t know what to say. I’m speechless. I’ll let you be from here on out.
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 13, 2008 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
haha... that Doomsday Mayan calendar
lol hey I watch the History channel. Did you see that one? Seriously, that show I watched was rather interesting.
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 10:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone has to be the voice for the “trade-for-pitching-now”-party.
steal home?
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
REC-tacular!!!
thank you sir, your work is amazing!!!
Steal Home R.I.P. 9/10/08
by LAMuscleFag on Nov 9, 2008 5:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
good post
just curious, why do you put all this time and effort into these posts? are you practicing to be a reporter or something?
by Save us on Nov 9, 2008 9:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It beats the hell out of the dribble you throw out there
I would rather read spurs posts than the shit you throw out there that obviously doesn’t require a working brain cell to come up with
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 9, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Two reasons
I am the curious type and enjoy answering questions that others have not already answered. This FanPost grew out of my inability to find anything on the internet that could answer the question “How likely are Feliz, Holland, Smoak, Andrus, etc likely to graduate to the majors and how long will it be before they begin to make significant contributions at the major league level?” You can follow my process in the FanPost.
I enjoy learning as well as teaching. My posts here are meant partially to share what I’ve learned with others and partially to hear what others may know/think about the topic.
My career has nothing to do with sports or reporting. I am able to apply things that I do for a living (experimental design and data analysis) in the FanPosts, but I do not have any aspirations toward making a living doing this.
by spurdynasty on Nov 9, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just an odd question but if you don't drop me a line about where you work and who you work for....
I am just curious about some different aspects in different companies involving different types of analysis. I can right now go into the field of finical analysis no problem, but I am rather curious about other applications of statistical analysis
thanks man
laxtonto@hotmail.com
by laxtonto on Nov 9, 2008 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Impressive stuff
Took me a little bit to get up the snuff to read this post b/c it was pretty intimidating looking at it at first. Needless to say, im a sucker for this kind of stuff, and this kind of statistical analysis is always fun. While I dont think we can really project or even say how the 2010/2011 lineups/rotation is going to look like with all the individual factors, the sheer statistical probability of some of these players are going to turn into good players gives us alot of hope. The thing that really blows me away about our system is how deep it is with anywhere between 10-20 players currently in our system with a chance to one day be in the BA top 100.
Id love to see another analysis that does a study on the real, baseball relevant value of minor league prospects. I guarantee you GMs in tune to numbers and creating statistical models for their franchises do very similar studies taking into account the dollar factor and budget constraints.
by blalock84 on Nov 9, 2008 10:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Damnit, spurdynasty.
How do you kick this much ass?
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Nov 9, 2008 10:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
cause he bends that ass over
and likes it
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't even read this
and i’m giving it a rec
In reference to how good the Steelers have been in their history: "No one is even close to them."- Steal Home
by hinduplaya on Nov 9, 2008 10:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i did the same at first
and then got the courage to actually read it…
by blalock84 on Nov 9, 2008 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
at least print it out
and read it later. you lazy pile of pig shit
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HH?
God dammit …
"He’s basically told himself unconsciously that he can’t be any good unless he catches 130 games a year. If he played with the baseball smarts of a guy like a David Eckstein, he’d maximize his talent and be an incredible player." - Andy Seiler, Texas Rangers Analyst
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2008 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Couple things
Why not just keep Davis at what his highest BA ranking is was? (I dont think he ever was?) If you include him then I think you should do that for all the others that made a big jump like he has and graduated before being put higher on the rankings. I also think you are a little too optimistic on where some of the Rangers will rank on the BA list in the upcomming years. I would also be interested in seeing the percentages of these things for Ranger prospects over the past decade or so.
by groundingout on Nov 10, 2008 1:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
You’re right about Davis; I should have simply left him off the “prospect” list since the numbers I used primarily reflect the fact that he’s already graduated and is producing at a level that is to be expected of a highly ranked 1B.
I would be curious to hear what prospects you believe over-rated.
I suspect that you want to see the Rangers prospects to determine how the Rangers compare to other organizations when it comes time to graduate them to the big leagues. I only looked at the BA lists from 2003 to 2007; the names that I recall include Diamond, Danks, Hurley, Harrison, Andrus, Saltalamacchia (does he count?), Kinsler, and Texeira. Among the players with 2 or more years of major league experience, only Saltalamacchia performed below average for his position, though he has posted an OPS+ of 91 and 91 in his first two years. It is a very small sample (as would ten years worth of Rangers prospects), but there is not an obvious problem with the Rangers graduating top prospects.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 2:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Too optimistic on these...
Holland Top25 91% 109
Main Top25 91% 108
Perez Top25 91% 109
Ramirez Top50 79% 108
Font Top50 79% 108
I doubt Holland gets top 25 on their list this year and I hope this is his last chance. All the others could get that high but I think its a little too optimistic to think that they will reach a ranking of that high. Main/Perez/Ramirez/Font all have top 50 potential I just think its a reach to think that they will reach that high. Looking at them, I guess individually it isn’t so bad just collectively. Also, I assume that those rankings are what you think will be there highest, not just this coming year?
by groundingout on Nov 10, 2008 2:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I should have provided an explanation for the projected BA rankings
I’m sure that you already know this, but for the benefit of others who may not be as familiar with BA, the #’s for Andrus, Teagarden, Diamond, Hurley, and Harrison derive from the 2006-2008 lists; I expect these to be highwater marks for five prospects.
The rankings for Holland, Feliz, MaxRam, and Borbon are what I am predicting for BA’s 2009 list. Perhaps its overly optimistic, but I have a hard time seeing BA ranking twelve pitchers ahead of Holland after what he did in 2008. I think that Borbon’s showing at the AFL is going to propel him onto the 2009 list and I expect MaxRam to be a borderline Top50. For what it is worth, I think that there is a chance that Smoak could go Top25 for 2009 and Top10 for 2010 after a full season in the minors next year.
The remaining predicted rankings are what I consider to be minor league ceilings based upon the written descriptions of Jamey, MJH, Jason, Jason, and a few national writers along with the little bit of video that I’ve been able to see of a few of the prospects.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 6:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm too busy
to read this very carefully, but it seems like those probabilties are awfully optimistic. I’ll have to revisit later in the week when I’m not so buys. Nice post, as usual!
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 10, 2008 12:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
optimistic
you would think that maybe it’s the rangers who just aren’t good at develping prospects into major leaguers. but thnen you look at the number of high ranger prospects that end up doing well (for other teams) and you realize that these numbers are plausible.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Nov 10, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Optimistic probabilities?
I assume this must be in regard to the numbers attached to the Rangers prospects in the second to the last table. If that is the case, then the probabilities for the 11 prospects who have already been ranked or who are likely to be ranked on BA’s 2009 list should be reasonably accurate. As with all small sample sets, there is a distinct possibility that the group of current Rangers prospects could vary significantly from the norm.
The expected graduation rates shown in the “Likelihood” column for the prospects who have yet to be ranked by BA is most assuredly an over-estimate of the probablility that these players will make it to the major leagues since there is also a chance that they they will fail to develop into prospects that are highly regarded enough to be listed among BA’s Top100. The numbers listed for Main, Perez, Font, NeRa, Beavan, and Boscan are thus only relevant if they progress as expected over the next 1-2 years.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
2nd paragraph
is kind of what I was getting at, sorry I wasn’t more specific. Those guys are far enough away that those % seem very optimistic and don’t take attrition into account enough.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 10, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Understood and agreed
Nice catch.
For what it is worth, I was surprised (perhaps even shocked) by the graduation rates for ranked prospects. I knew that the upper echelon of major leaguers were predominantly highly ranked prospects but I had always assumed that the transition from highly-regarded prospect to successful major leaguer was more treacherous.
When you are predicting the futures of highly ranked pitchers, you think about Greg Miller and Jesse Foppert and automatically assume that a pitcher is as likely to fail as he is to succeed when he transitions. However, when you look at the recent data, it is obvious that Miller and Foppert are the outliers and that most talented and successful minor league pitchers take their lumps in their debut seasons and then progress right up the chain. The same is true of positions players except that they tend to become above average major leaguers sooner after their debut.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is very encouraging
and given the sheer number of good prospects the Rangers have a very hopeful sign.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 10, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Appreciate the insightful analysis
But I have to admit that the final sentence was kinda sobering for me.
Somehow, “we’re going to be right in the thick of things in 2011” just isn’t that comforting.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 10, 2008 7:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
further
I love our top 3 pitching prospects as much as anybody, but it does seem a bit over the top optimistic to expect that we will get a #1, #2, and #3 starter out of Holland, Feliz, and Main.
Or am I just being too skeptical?
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 10, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
look what the Rays have done with Kazmir, Shields, and Price/Sonnanstine….it’s certainly possible.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 10, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You are just being realistic
The Hudson/Mulder/Zito type of thing comes along very rarely.
"Colt mccoy sucks, mack brown needs to be fired." - Longhorn
by DaheelzCM on Nov 10, 2008 8:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Top 25 Pitchers from BA's 2003-2007 Lists
It could be argued that Hudson/Mulder/Zito is atypical not because top prospects often fail to transition to the majors but because it is rare that one team has three such highly regarded prospects. Pitchers ranked among BA’s Top25 from 2003-2007 are listed below with their highest rank and the year that they achieved that ranking.
Rank / Player / Year
1/ Daisuke Matsuzaka / 2007
2 / Felix Hernandez / 2005
4 / Philip Hughes / 2007
4 / Edwin Jackson / 2004
5 / Jesse Foppert / 2003
5 / Homer Bailey / 2007
6 / Jose Contreras / 2003
6 / Francisco Liriano / 2006
7 / Scott Kazmir / 2005
7 / Chad Billingsley / 2006
8 / Justin Verlander / 2006
8 / Greg Miller / 2004
9 / Gavin Floyd / 2003
10 / Matt Cain / 2006
10 / Francisco Rodriguez / 2003
10 / Andrew Miller / 2007
11 / Tim Lincecum / 2007
13 / Adam Loewen / 2004
14 / Zack Greinke / 2004
16 / Yovani Gallardo / 2007
16 / Adam Miller / 2005
17 / Cole Hamels / 2004
18 / Dustin McGowan / 2004
18 / Adam Wainwright / 2003
20 / Mike Pelfrey / 2007
20 / Jeremy Bonderman / 2003
20 / Jeff Niemann / 2005
21 / Matt Garza / 2007
22 / Jon Lester / 2006
23 / Jeff Francis / 2005
24 / John VanBenschoten / 2003
24 / Clayton Kershaw / 2007
24 / Chin-Hui Tsao / 2004
24 / Bobby Jenks / 2006
25 / Sean Burnett / 2003
25 / Jose Capellan / 2005
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 8:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
of those 36
I count 12 that look like flops, most of them complete, injury related flops, mixed in with a couple that just turned out to be servicable – nothing to build a rotation around. So even top 25 ranked pitching prospects have something like a 1 in 3 burnout rate.
The group I’m talking about is Jackson, Foppert, Bailey, Floyd, Loewen, Adam Miller, Pelfrey, VanBenshiznit, Tsao, Burnett, Capellan.
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 10, 2008 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
curious
didn’t McCarthy rank as a top 25 BA prospect at one time?
I don't hate everything. In fact, I think LSB is just groovy.
by tricer on Nov 10, 2008 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
high 30's low 40s I think
While Danks was mid 50s
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 10, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A breakdown of the 12 who look like flops
In 2008, Jackson posted an ERA+ of 101, Floyd went for 119, and Pelfrey went for 113. Capellan’s ERA+ has exceeded 100 in 3 of his 4 major league seasons, though in only one of those years did he pitch more than 40 innings.
In his two major league seasons (the second was in 2008), Burnett posted an ERA+ of 86 and 87. In his rookie season in 2007, Bailey posted an ERA+ of 81 and then failed to pitch 40 innings in the big leagues in 2008. Loewen’s ERA+ was 85 in his debut season in 2006 and he has struggled with injuries the past two years. Adam Miller has yet to pitch in the big leagues and he has struggled with injuries the last two years, but he pitched in AAA in 2008. In my opinion, these four pitchers still have a legitimate shot at becoming productive major leaguers.
That leaves Miller, Foppert (84 ERA+ in his lone major league season), Tsao, and Van Benschoten as legitimate flops from the 2003-2007 Top25 classes.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 10:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VanBeets...
The blame for him flaming out goes on PIT, check thier track ecord.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
by Rodney on Nov 11, 2008 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
shoulda been a hitter anyway
normal people : chuck norris :: getting flustered in big games : greg davis
by knockoutking on Nov 11, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
that you are giving up too soon on some of the pitchers on that list (if that list is what I think it is). Not to mention Floyd had a good year and Jackson’s was pretty good.
by groundingout on Nov 14, 2008 4:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No sign of Saunders, Santana or Weaver.
How would you explain their success given that the team had a poor run-differential for most of the season, coupled with a pretty unimpressive season by Lackey?
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 10, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, oc, but I'm not following your logic
The FanPost was directed at understanding the minor-to-major league transition of highly regarded prospects. Determining how pitcher performance and team stats affect win-loss record (if that’s what you are asking) is completely unrelated.
If you simply want to know whether the four Angels pitchers were ranked by BA:
Santana – 29 in 2004
Weaver – 57 in 2006
Lackey and Saunders – I don’t think that either of these players were ranked among BA’s Top100 though I do know that both pitchers were rated very highly among the Angels prospects.
by spurdynasty on Nov 11, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming no trades, the 2010 line-up and pitching staff could be the same set of players as is shown for 2011
The team should be a lot of fun to watch, but they will likely suffer the pains associated with breaking in a half dozen rookies at prominent positions (starting rotation, SS, mid-line-up masher). A team with that much talent can compete (see 2008 Rays and 2007 Rockies), but I wouldn’t count on a trip to the post-season.
by spurdynasty on Nov 10, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent stuff, buddy
Am I reading this right? You project Main to be in his 2nd big league year in 2011?
I’d put the chances of that at wafer thin.
Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.
by Brian Thomas on Nov 12, 2008 8:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Michael Main
Based on what has been written of Main this fall, I expect him to finish the 2009 season in Frisco. Assuming he does well in AA, he should see AAA in 2010 and be in line for a call-up. The call-up could come as early as mid-season if injuries or poor performance by the big league staff require it though more likely it would involve a September audition in the big leagues.
You’re probably right about the chances of Main spending time in the big leagues in 2010 being low, but the fact that Rick Adair is raving about him throwing “big league quality pitches” suggests to me that the organization expects him to move quickly through the system. Perhaps Jason or MJH can weigh in with an opinion on “Main in 2010.”
by spurdynasty on Nov 12, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Main in '10
If he pitches the ’09 season the way he pitched this fall, this very well could be his last full season in the minors. There is no need to rush him, but his performance will ultimately set the promotion schedule. Personally, I think he pitches at the big league level at some point in ’10 and earns a permanent rotation spot in ’11.
by jparks77 on Nov 12, 2008 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This looks like some good shit
I’m going to fire up a joint. You know, blaze me one and get to feeling good. I will definitely proceed further with this. But, I’m going to have to scroll back up after all of this. Just thought I’d say I need to relax before I read this.
by kokopelli on Nov 12, 2008 8:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Sullivan from Lookout Landing weighs in on this study:
Conclusions:
-top prospects are good
-the Rangers have them
I don’t agree with every part of his methodology… but on a broader level his argument is correct – prospects are valuable resources, and because the Rangers have a bunch of them, that increases their odds of striking gold. Both quality and quantity of prospects are critical, the former for obvious reasons, and the latter because prospects do bust, and the more of them you have, the better the chances that you end up with some quality players.
I would’ve written that post differently. I also would’ve used older lists to better evaluate how the players went on to do long-term. But that guy has the right idea, even if he takes a funny way getting there.
For those interested, Jeff did a similar study several months ago… before the Bedard trade went down.
A Little Study – Jan. 11, 2008
I think it should be worth noting that Jeff did not include pitchers in his study.
…since they’re a whole other animal.
Check it out.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Nov 13, 2008 12:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the link, oc
I had not come across Jeff’s analysis. His post led me to test one of the assumptions that I had made for my own research project; namely, “BA has become more sophisticated in selecting prospects in the past 5-10 years, thus it is more useful to use a recent collection of Top 100 lists to estimate the likelihood that today’s hot prospects will successfully transition to the major leagues.”
Because I don’t have the time or energy to create a database to quantify the performances of Top10 prospects from BA’s 1990-2007 lists, I used Jeff’s more subjective ranking systems and limited it to two groups:
Group 1 – graduated to the majors and became a starter, rotation stalwart, or consistent reliever
Group 2 – failed to graduate to teh majors or bounced around the league and failed to have an impact in multiple years
The number of Group 2 players in the Top10 for each of BA’s lists are shown below:
1990 – 2
1991 – 4
1992 – 4
1993 – 5
1994 – 2
1995 – 1
1996 – 3
1997 – 1
1998 – 2
1999 – 4
2000 – 5
2001 – 3
2002 – 3
2003 – 2
2004 – 1
2005 – 1
2006 – 1 is Lastings Milledge fails
2007 – 3 if Phil Hughes, Homer Bailey, and Andrew Miller fail
Averages
1990-1995: 3 fails per year
1996-2001: 3 fails per year
2002-2007: 1.7 fails per year if Milledge, Hughes, Bailey, and Miller fail
Note: Unlike Jeff, I did not exclude pitchers since nothing in the analysis that I did for 2003-2007 suggested that the fail rates or major league performances of pitchers are significantly different than position players.
by spurdynasty on Nov 13, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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