Royals payroll > Rangers payroll
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 1:49 PM CST
Email
PrintI saw this article today, which had this note:
The decisions avoid potential arbitration cases with Bale, Gathright and Smith and trim an estimated $4-plus million in projected payroll. That puts the club roughly back on pace for its $70 million budget.
The Rangers, meanwhile, are supposed to be at last year's $68 million payroll.
So the Royals -- the poster child for the hapless, small market teams -- apparently will have a higher payroll than the Rangers next year.
Awesome.
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that's always encouraging
don’t you know the DFW area is a small market? It’s just fields of corn and wheat out here. lol
Wait 'til the year after next
Bet your horse
is smaller than the Max guy over at Royals Review.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Per Jamey
he just quoted an article that said Sheets is more likely to sign with Texas than NY. That changes things perhaps.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
yeah his agent said
he was “sincerely interested” in texas…sincerely interested in using us to drive up his price for the team that ultimately signs him.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 13, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Of course...
…all the reports also indicate we’ll have to move Millwood, and maybe Blalock, to afford Sheets.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
It’s my understanding that Sheets is more likely to sign with the Texas Rangers, who are being encouraged by new pitching coach Mike Maddux, the former Brewers’ pitching coach.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Dec 13, 2008 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
what's that prove?
just that zito didn’t accept, Tex declined our offer, hunter as well…?
That’s all i can see…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
Don't forget about Dice-K
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
dice K
that was a posting process. we didn’t post enough
Mandatory reading before suggesting a trade
Yeah but our bid was expected to be
competitive.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
nobody saw the redsox offering 52 mil either though
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
Whats your point Adam?
Last I checked it was your W/L record that determined how good you were not your payroll. Tell me how far did those 100+ million dollar payrolls earlier this decade get us?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Dec 13, 2008 2:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
They
were just used on the wrong things.
You are implying that spending money doesn’t make a team better, which is not true.
If money is spent wisely, it will do you good.
"You can be a leader or follower.... Or you can be elite...." - Me
agreed
so, who should we have ‘wisely’ spent that money on this year or even the past few years?
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
sheets to start off
some would argue kerry wood (i wouldnt)
lowe
some would argue saito (07-08 elias # 88.678 – tops in the NL but would have been 6th in the AL) would be a good guy to pick up
this year at least those are some guys that i would think would be worth considering
so if we had a bigger amt of money we could spend i would seriously think about lowe/sheets and possibly saito
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
i would also trade for adrian beltre if we had 100 mil to spend this year
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
I'd go and get Sheets
He’s the only true difference-maker I see out on the FA market right now. Lowe is solid, but he could wind up commanding more of a contract than he’s really worth so I’m not all that bullish on pursuing him.
I’d get Sheets, get Koji Uehara, sign either Wigginton or Crede to a 1-year deal to play 3B and then think about adding the likes of Randy Johnson or Chad Cordero. But that’s about all I’d want to do FA-wise this winter.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
+1
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Question
Let’s say you are trying to build a ballclub.
Would you rather have a $70 million payroll to work with, or a $100 million payroll to work with?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
$70 million
With $30 million more to spend on the draft and international signings. That’s how I would build a ballclub.
No
Nolan said the payroll was going to be within 5% one way or the other of last year’s $68 million number.
And every discussion on the topic of signing free agents — such as Sheets — also involves discussion about how the Rangers are going to have to move payroll in order to be able to afford someone. Particularly the articles written by T.R. Sullivan, who writes for the official Ranger website.
Hey, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Tom Hicks is perfectly willing to have an $80 or $90 million payroll this season, and all this talk about having to move Blalock to afford Kerry Wood or move Millwood to afford Ben Sheets is just crap.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
dammit, i typed something up and my mac keys screwed up and it all went away...
but, to summarize, i was just going to say, i don’t think getting Sheets and getting rid of Millwood is strictly a financial decision.
I think it’s more inline of trying to get our young starters more experience and not clogging 3/5’s of our rotation with vets. I doubt the rangers believe that they are going to contend for the WS THIS year, but giving our young pitchers some more major league experience is a huge step forward in what we are wanting to do in 2010 and beyond. And, I think I’d rather have Sheets going forward now than Millwood…plus, we probably will be getting something of value in return for Millwood.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
solution: throw your mac out the window ;)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Depends how I am building the club
If I am going strictly free agents and veterans then give me the 100 million dollars. But if I am going with youth through development and drafting and LA signings then 70 million is more than enough.
Do I think our payroll should be higher…sure. But as other teams have shown you can be competitive with low payrolls. I think alot of people simply look at the payroll number and make assumptions based solely on that and don’t look at the amount of good young talent we have and realize its about in line with our roster.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
x
If I am going strictly free agents and veterans then give me the 100 million dollars. But if I am going with youth through development and drafting and LA signings then 70 million is more than enough.
Really?
Can’t you do both?
Can’t you building through development and drafting and LA signings, and yet, not have to dump Hank Blalock in order to try to sign Kerry Wood? Or have to move Kevin Millwood to try to sign Ben Sheets? Or have to sift through the garbage bin for a third baseman rather than try to sign a vet to a short-term deal?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah you can do both
But if you are going with youth it makes no sense to have 3 veterans taking up spots in the rotation when you have at least 4 young guys ready to step in.
Getting rid of one of Millwood or Padilla has just as much to do with opening up a rotation spot as it does clearing salary. If we signed Sheets and didn’t get rid of one of the other veterans we would be right back in the “win now” mode we had been in the past 8 years not giving our young guys a chance when they are ready.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Let me know when...
the Rangers have a young pitcher forcing his way into the ML rotation and there just isn’t a spot for him. I’ve never seen it happen and won’t believe that it could happen, until I actually see it.
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
We got them
Feldman, Hurley, Harrison, and McCarthy
They are ML ready and until you give them the chance to prove themselves you will never know how good they can be. Feldman was very good last year considering it was his first year as a starter and he had to do it all at the big league level. Hurley and harrison had nice minor league track records and some ML success. McCarthy, when healthy, has had ML success and shown he has potential to be a nice piece in a rotation. While yes I have more confidence in what I will get out of Sheets, Millwood, and Padilla if you never give the young guys a chance then you will constantly be signing FAs to fill those spots.
What if in a year or two when Feliz and Holland get their debuts. If they struggle do you simply send them back down and sign a veteran to take their spot because you know what you will get out of them? No you give them the chance to learn through the struggles and show themselves. Young guys cost very little money. Theres nothing wrong with a low payroll if your roster is full of young talented players.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
lol, good
I’m glad i wasn’t the only one thinking this.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
none of those four have really forced their way into a ML rotation
Harrison has shown the most, and he is going to be in the rotation next year for sure anyway. He’s probably our #4 starter right now, pushing him to #5 would be a good thing.
Hurley could probably use some more AAA seasoning, and he may be a guy that would be best served with an apprenticeship in the big league bullpen before being handed a rotation spot. Let’s see him healthy and getting some outs before we clear a spot for him.
Feldman seems ideally suited as a swing man out of the pen. When you hold rotation spots open for guys like him, it only shows what a poor condition the overall staff is in right now.
And McCarthy is probably on a hospital gurney eating unflavored gelatin and sucking on an oxygen bottle right now, so I don’t see any urgent need to clear a rotation spot for him.
You seem to think that every pitching prospect that survives AAA deserves two solid years of ML starts, just because. I think we will all be able to realize when the pitching pipeline really kicks in, because at that time we might see some of the fringe types have to earn a spot, or maybe break in as mid relievers.
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
I don't see why Feldman is only a swing man
He took the ball each time and outside of 2-3 bad outings, gave us a chance to win every time he took the mound. Everyone is so quick to give Roster spots to McCarthy/Hurley, but dismisses Scott. I hope the Rangers realize that he is an ideal 4-5 starter and can really help the team.
Remember, he’s still only 25. This will be his second year starting. Is he our ace? Obviously not. But he’s a groundball guy, who’s young, cheap, and has stayed pretty healthy and had some success in the big leagues. I don’t know why people want to stuff him in the pen so quickly.
Gerald Laird: One Man, 5 Scoops.
i agree with this post. worst case is that you can stick him back in the pen
in the meantime he should most def. be penciled into the rotation somewhere after his quality starts last year.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Young guys
Last year was Feldmans first year as a starter as a pro. He was very effective. Part of why his numbers are what they are is RWs handling of him and the bullpen. His ERA in the last inning or partial inning of his starts was unbelievable. Something like 20+. His ERA in all other innings was in the mid 3’s. To me it tells you that he was left out oo long which is understandable coming from a guy who had been a reliever up until April of last year. He may not be a flamethrower who strikes out 12 a game but he gets guys out and keeps the ball down generally. He may very well only be a back of the rotation guy but hes always been healthy and there are very few rotations in baseball with 5 top of rotation guys in it.
Hurley I agree could probably use some more AAA time but he was decent in his short ML time last year before the injury. I don’t think spending a majority of time in the majors next year would necessarily hurt him.
Harrison had a nice minor league track record and showed he could handle pitching in the bigs.
And McCarthy is probably the most talented of the 4. All he has to do is stay healthy which is not a given with him as we have seen.
All 4 could be in a rotation next year. If 2 had to start in AAA I would feel that is setting this organization back as a whole.
Like I said if you aren’t going to give guys a chance to take their bumps in the majors when they are ready then whats the point of drafting and developing them. They aren’t all going to come up and immediately be superstars. And if this club is seriously targeting 2010 as their breakout year then for us to hold back young guys who will be with us in 2010 for veterans who aren’t guaranteed to have contracts in 2010 is down right wrong in my book. And if you are banking on injuries to get these guys starts then your thinking and rationale is way off. Injuries happen and you have to be prepared for them but that doesn’t mean holding back your young guys simply for those to happen. What happens if all 3 of those veterans go out and make 31 starts next year and Feldman doesn’t get hurt like has been his history? Then you are sitting there basically having wasted a year of development for those young guys and 2010 now turns into 2011. And so on and so on.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
young pitchers
no matter how good they are more often than not struggle when they are first called up to the big leagues. Lincecum took his bumps, Billingsley was rocked. They have flashed but are usually hit or miss from start to start. Both of those starters were given a chance to take their bumps and bruises and now it is paying off. I’m not saying those 4 are of the caliber of Lincecum, but I will say they need a chance to grow and adjust to the bigs.
Wait 'til the year after next
All 4 could be in a rotation next year. If 2 had to start in AAA I would feel that is setting this organization back as a whole.
why not have harrison/mccarthy/feldman in the rotation and hurley in the pen?
They aren’t all going to come up and immediately be superstars.
good point – i remeber a fanpost that spursdynasty did about this kind fo thing
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
your position seems inconsistent
You think all the younger SP deserve to have rotation spots reserved for them, but Max Ramirez needs to be stashed in the minors?
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
Is he being blocked by a vetaran?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
hmm
either salty or max should start the yr at AAA starting full time.
teagarden should be at the ML level (defense)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
Hurley could probably use some more AAA seasoning, and he may be a guy that would be best served with an apprenticeship in the big league bullpen before being handed a rotation spot. Let’s see him healthy and getting some outs before we clear a spot for him.
now this is something i would get behind. give him the earl weaver treatment and let him throw in the pen to start the year. you know an injury is going to happen, in theory if you put him out there in situations in which he can do well it will boost his confidence and this is never a bad thing.
however, this will never happen.
not because its not a good idea but because ron washington has not the foggiest clue on how to manage young players.
this would probably be the best idea. either you can keep him under the eye of the BP coach (maddux) and hope he regains the lost MPH and whatnot that dissapeared or you can send him to AAA and hope he doesnt bomb again.
so yes, i think he should be at the ML level – start him off in the pen.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
while this is right
if you go with those 4 guys + one of millwood/padilla (trade the other) you have a piss-poor rotation
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
x
Getting rid of one of Millwood or Padilla has just as much to do with opening up a rotation spot as it does clearing salary. If we signed Sheets and didn’t get rid of one of the other veterans we would be right back in the "win now" mode we had been in the past 8 years not giving our young guys a chance when they are ready.
You’ve listed three veterans, two of whom are only guaranteed through 2009, and none of whom have a track record for great health.
You then list, below, four pitchers, two of whom have spent very little time in AAA and didn’t do real well in the majors last year, one of whom hasn’t been able to stay healthy the past two years, and one of whom was quite mediocre last year while pitching more innings than he ever has as a pro.
Are you really suggesting that the organization can only sign Sheets if it moves Millwood or Padilla, not because of the payroll implications, but because they are afraid if they sign Sheets they won’t be able to find room in the rotation for two of the Hurley/Harrison/Feldman/McCarthy group?
I don’t believe that for one second.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah thats what im saying
Feldman is out of options and showed last year (his first as a starter) that he is capable of being a ML starting pitcher. McCarthy, when healthy I know, has #2/3 potential. Hurley was pretty impressive in his few ML starts last year and Harrison as well. Whats the purpose of building our farm system and signing LA kids if when they are ready you don’t give them a chance. Or if they don’t come up and immediately throw 8 innings of 1 run ball they get sent back down.
Like you aid Millwood and Padilla aren’t guaranteed to be here past 2009. So why if we are gearing up to win in 2010 should we keep those young guys that are supposed to help us win in 2010 down in the minors so we can have 3 veterans in the ML rotation?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Let me ask this
Do you think a possible Salty/Buchholz trade is being held up because the Rangers first have to deal Millwood or Padilla to make room in their rotation for Buchholz?
What about Ricky Nolasco? Do you think that the Rangers would hold off making a deal for him because they can’t trade for him unless they make room for him in the rotation by dealing Millwood or Padilla?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
No its not holding it up
But if that trade does go down then I can almost guarantee you not only trade one of the veterans but we don’t get full value for them.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
which is frusterating
so you have 6/7 pitcher you want to be in your 5 man rotation
your 100% without a doubt not going to get 30 starts out all 5.
worst case is you what, bump feldman to a swingman position for a short time?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
And personally...
I don’t have a problem with Hurley, who has spent less than a season in AAA, has a AAA ERA in excess of 5, and who is just 23 years old, starting the season in AAA. I don’t see that’s inconsistent with building for the future. Neither would having Harrison start the season in AAA, or Feldman starting the season in the bullpen.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
Why?
Hurley I can see spending more time down because he didn’t really dominate at that level. But why does Harrison need to start in AAA? Why does Feldman need to be in the pen? Saying that basically is saying that we are going for it all in 2009 and the future doesn’t matter. Whats the point of the last couple years been then if we are constantly playing for next year. Are you saying if our young guys don’t come up and dominate then we go sign a veteran to take that spot? Young guys are going to struggle. If 2010 is really our target year to start what will hopefully be a long and prosperous run then why spend 2009 with veterans who aren’t guaranteed to be here in 2010 and beyond?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
and moving pitchers to and from the bullpen
is not really a good idea for their development.
I was listening to Max’s radio show earlier this year, and they were talking about how it takes a pitcher a full year to settle in their current role as a SP if he’s moving from RP…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
moving them back and forth quickly, ie joba, doesnt work at all
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
x
But why does Harrison need to start in AAA? Why does Feldman need to be in the pen? Saying that basically is saying that we are going for it all in 2009 and the future doesn’t matter.
No, it doesn’t. It says that we’ve got several guys who are viable rotation options but who still have questions surrounding them and shouldn’t necessarily be locks for the rotation.
Starting Harrison in AAA, or Feldman in the pen, doesn’t mean that we are going for it all in 2009 and the future doesn’t matter any more than having Padilla and Millwood here in 2009 (which means that some guys who could be in the rotation to start 2009, won’t) means that.
You are basically saying that one spot in the rotation is the difference between saying the future is irrelevant and that we are building. And you are saying that based on the assumption that all the guys we are talking about will be healthy to start 2009, which seems to be unlikely anyway.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it depends
You win more games with Padilla than with Harrison, I suspect
One may believe that Harrison could use a little more time in the minors working on his command and on not nibbling so much.
Padilla, if he pitches well in 2009, while the team struggles, would probably be an attractive trade chip during the year.
The bottom line is, given the histories of the players involved, there is little reason to believe that if you started a rotation with Sheets, Padilla, Millwood, and then any two of McCarthy/Harrison/Hurley/Feldman, that you’d get 162 starts from that front five and the two left out would never get a look. More likely, if you deal Padilla or Millwood to make room for one of the remainders, we’re going to be giving this year’s equivalent of Doug Mathis several spot starts and end up rushing Feliz and/or Holland.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
then are you suggesting
if we sign sheets, that we don’t trade Millwood or Padilla because it could rush some of our youngs guys due to injuries?
I, personally, don’t disagree that there will be plenty of innings, but I don’t like spot starting young talent sending them up and down from the bigs to AAA and back again.
Wait 'til the year after next
No
I’m saying that, if we sign Sheets, and a deal comes along where moving Millwood or Padilla makes sense, then we do it.
I don’t think adding a starting pitcher, though, requires us to move one of those guys.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
but all the talk about payroll, it is expected that one be moved. I’m willing to not move either and trade one or both at the deadline.
The budget is more than manageable. Plus it makes the Rangers more marketable if they show an effort sign players. And, next year we would have a number of players no longer under contract which would allow for more signings this year.
Wait 'til the year after next
That's not the scenario that I am talking about
I am fine with the way that the rotation appear to be set up for next season, but the post above suggested that there may be reasons for Hurley/Harrison and so to start in AAA. If that is the case, I asked why Padilla should take one of those spots instead of Harrison.
Padilla will probably win a couple more games based on their performances this year, and assuming that Harrison does not improve at all, it will only be another couple of games next year. What is the value of those extra wins? Why is it reasonable to assume that Padilla might have a good year – will the result still look as good if he just had a mediocre first half? Or perhaps something even worse?
Let me ask this question: without considering any other external factors, do you think Harrison would be better served by staying in AAA or the major league level next season?
Last question first
I don’t know.
On Padilla…what sort of ERA do you think he’d put up next season, if he’s in the rotation all year?
What about Harrison?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
another question
how many innings do you expect each to pitch?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
This one is really tough
I have no idea, but I’ll go ahead and guess 170 for Padilla and 150 for Harrison
That might be close
I’d probably guess maybe 180 for Padilla and 130 or so for Harrison, which makes those ERAs a little further apart in value than if they pitch the same innings total.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Harrison
I definitely agree with you on the Padilla vs. Harrison part, but I don’t so much on the minors part. At this point, I think a guy like Harrison benefits the most from a guy like Mike Maddux. If we want Harrison to have an impact as a back-end starter for some time, we need to get him in the best hands, and that is the hands of Mike Maddux. If we can’t trust Maddux to mold our young pitching more than a few more AAA starts would, then there was no reason to hire him over another pitching coach.
09 roto
Well Padilla is currently our #2 and Harrison is currently #3. So you’d have to add 3 more starters that would slot ahead of Padilla before the scenario you describe would unfold.
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
The Rays
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
Opening Day payroll - 2008:
$43,745,597
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
DUH, YOU CAN WIN WITH SMALL MONIES!
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
Okay
Who claimed anything to the contrary?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Well
your comments seem to say you do
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
No, they don't
I don’t get how me saying it sucks that our payroll is now lower than the Royals means that I think you can’t win with a small payroll. That’s ridiculous.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
It doesn't seem smart to whine about payroll when a team with a lot less money than us or the Royals actually scored a championship.
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
Again...
So what?
The Rays won a championship, so we shouldn’t care if the payroll is $50 million or $70 million or $90 million?
Really?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
You know what direction this organization is going and the philosophy they're employing in acquiring talent.
So… what’s the big surprise?
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
And, if Tampa's payroll stays there
how many of those players will still be around in 3 or 4 years?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Which, really, is the bigger issue for me
I’m really not that hung up on what our payroll is today.
But if the idea is that the Ranger payroll is going to stay in the $70-75 million range for the next 4-5 years, don’t get too attached to Ian Kinsler and Josh Hamilton, because one of them will have to be traded…we won’t be able to afford both.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
That's not the point you're making though.
You’re just bitching about how our payroll is smaller than Kansas City’s.
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
Has Tom Hicks shown he won’t spend to keep guys here in the past? Hank was signed to an extension when he was young. MY needs not be mentioned. We offered Tex a huge deal. Kinsler just got an extension. Hamilton should be getting one in the next few months.
Soriano is truly the only young guy I can remember us shipping off for contractual reasons as a young player.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Dec 13, 2008 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm sorry
but that’s very disingenuous to say that. There is absolutely nothing that backs that up…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
Adam, Lets think long term
In the grand scheme of things, we must remember something.
Winning produces revenue. The Rangers have not won since the late 90’s.
68 million with a sub 500 club could be 110 million with a 95 win ball club.
Nolan Ryan’s minor league team Round Rock Express is known for having larger than normal revenue streams for one main reason… Smart spending. They have a wonderful stadium, but dont over spend on frivilous items and are able to maintain a fan base becuase they win(enough) and because its a beautiful park in a beautiful town.
In two years, the Rangers could have the HOTTEST team in all of the major leagues. They may not be dominate, but with young arms and hot young bats comes publicity, and new streams of revenue.
We wont get into the economy, but you know that Hicks is having problems with his debt and refinancing it right now.
In two years, if all goes according to plan, we will have a earniing baseball team, with a fair economy, and that should equal to a higher payroll for the rangers. Hamilton will add 10 mill or so I think when they work on his extention. So, with a Holland and Feliz in the rotation you could see a payroll of around 90 million there. Yet another reason why building from the farm is better, you can curb your costs when it comes to salaries and control the free market inflation by investing in your players before they get close to said market.
So, in essence, it sucks that the Royals can afford 2 mill more now, but as the team wins, the payroll “cap” will rise. Count on it.
Its time...
by FormerLSBUser on Dec 13, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
in order to win long term
you have to grow the farm and spend in FAs. It will take a higher payroll. End of story
Wait 'til the year after next
But not right now
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I agree
but I say you start by getting sheets this year to help you build for future FAs. You get one big name. It’s easier to bring in others
Wait 'til the year after next
In other words
you’re basically saying that a team should bet on a lightning strike. Everything worked out for Tampa this year, which is often what happens for a pennant winner. And they’ve been losers for many years despite all those high draft picks. They’ve been both very smart and a little lucky.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Luck may be a factor in getting them to the WS
but they did not need luck to make the playoffs
Sure they did
They had no huge injuries, that is luck right there. Nearly everybody played up to their potential and several young pitchers took big steps forward. The Garza trade worked out beautifully.
I’m not saying they didn’t do a great job preparing and building a roster, they did. But every team needs talent and a bit of luck to get a playoff spot.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
If every team that made the playoff had a bit of luck
then why should one team be considered lucky over another? Plus, luck is supposed to be something that is random, so let me ask this question: if last season was replayed 1000 times, how many times do you expect Tampa Bay team last year make the playoffs?
Also, I said that they did not need luck to make the playoffs last season, which is to say that them making the playoffs is not a product of chance, but rather one of good team construction
We're both right
I’m just saying that Tampa is not a lock to make the playoffs in 2009, just as they werent’ in 2008. Any number of things could go wrong (or just not go right enough).
A couple years ago everyone thought Detroit was a lock, but they had some bad luck and poor performances from very talented guys. The same thing could easily happen to Tampa and it would not really be the fault of management if it did. Detroit’s situation is worse than that possibility, though, because of their payroll. So in that way Tampa would be in a better position to overcome their bad luck than Detroit is.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Who won more last year?
The Royals or Rangers?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
That doesn't answer my question
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
We should all be concerned about payroll and how it will affect us down the road...
But, just to address the “root” issue, as was stated in the fanpost above… I don’t think we should be all that shocked the Royals are now spending more than we are… given the Rangers’ recent track record with free-agent signings… and their commitment to to continue to acquire young players (cheap talent).
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
And, maybe more pertinent to the question
where the Rangers are in the grand curve of building towards a contention window. As they start winning revenue increases, players are extended, and hopefully they keep themselves flexible enough with more talent and sensible contracts that they can deal fading players and replace them from within with the occasional FA signing.
That was one long sentence.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Tamps
Does anyone here think that winning with their payroll is equal in difficulty to winning with a $100 million payroll?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Payroll
This kind of makes me wish ARod hadn’t opted out. Let Hicks keep paying him if he’s not going to reinvest in the team. Unless of course that would have meant we’d have a payroll at 61m.
Fire Ron Washington
Ha ha haha uh, uh...haha, that's funny!
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
⇧ I'm Doyle King
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
If a small market payroll
keeps us from investing in the driftwood of the world like Chan Ho Park, I say viva la small payroll
that is the way Tom Hicks thinks
not every pitcher is Chan Ho Park. He sucked. He was never that good.
Ben Sheets is an ace, a REAL ace. There is a difference between spending and spending wisely. Hicks has not spent wisely in the past.
Wait 'til the year after next
Why'd you delete my Kevin Cash post
before I even had a chance to read the hot opinions?
by robert_d_wilfong on Dec 13, 2008 3:55 PM CST reply actions
+1
I posted an inflammatory comment in that post and was hoping to find if I had reeled in anyone.
This is an exciting time in my life.
The LSB CPP's are in full bloom.
by inactive lsb user on Dec 14, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Scott Feldman
It was brought up earlier in this thread about Feldman and what has he done to deserve a spot and why he shouldn’t be in the pen as a swing man. Remember last year he was a starter for the first time in his pro career. He went into spring training as a reliever. It wasn’t until the end of May that they decided to send him to Frisco to start. So you would expect him to not be able to go as deep into games and to wear down quicker since his arm and body aren’t accustomed to being a starter. Well he pitched almost 145 innings as a starter last year. Every time it was reported we were going to give him a rest toward the end of the year we ended up needing him.
Now during Games it always seemed he would be fine up until that last inning. During the year one time I went through the numbers and figured out that that was in fact true. Well I just went back through the entire season and compiled his numbers (just IP and ERA not trying to go real deep in this) and its pretty astonishing.
In his starts up until the last inning or partial inning here were his numbers: 124 IP, 50 ER, 3.63 ERA
In that last full or partial inning he pitched these are the numbers: 20.1 IP, 33ER, 14.63 ERA
Percentage of inherited runners allowed to score: 75% (9/12)
That goes to show that both the bullpen and manager contributed to his overall numbers. He averaged 5 innings per start in that 3.63 ERA stat group which itself is pretty good for a converted reliever over the course of a full season. It was just that extra inning that Wash was trying to squeeze out of him and then when he did turn it over to the bullpen with runners on they couldn’t keep them from scoring.
Now if you want to isolate his last 4 starts (Aug 30th-end of season) to see if he really did wear down over the season here are those numbers
First few innings of games: 19 IP, 7 ER, 3.32 ERA
last inning of those games: 3.2 IP, 10 ER, 24.52 ERA
So it shows he wore down as the season went on which is understandable from a converted reliever. Does his peripherials suggest he is going to be an ace or anything. No. But the people who ust want to stick him in the pen need to slow down. He could be a very nice piece of the rotation going forward and hes still young. He deserves a spot in the rotation to start next year.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
The biggest thing to me...
…is that Feldman has, I think, the lowest ceiling of the 4 guys you listed. Which is why I’m not going to get worked up if he’s in the bullpen next year because our front three is Sheets, Millwood, Padilla (or Millwood, Padilla, Buchholz).
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 13, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
feldman
i think he’s a good pitcher to have around, he can be a long man or middle reliever or start a game if needed.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
exactly
hes a guy you need to have around
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
yeah
but not a guy who needs to be given a rotation spot guaranteed.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
with as many guys as we have i think the only ones guaranteed spots are probably millwood/padilla + probably harrison and as of now he would be in the rotation if everyone did the same as last yr imho
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
His option status has alot to do with that
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Last year at this time
a majority here wanted to DFA him.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
last year at this time
shows how much something can change
last yr at this time holland wasnt even in the top 20-30+ rangers prospects either
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Feldman average about 5 2/3 innings per start
and your contention is that his overall performance suffered because Worsh left him in too long. So, basically you are saying that he is a 4 inning pitcher. Then you act as if you don’t understand why anyone would want to put him in the bullpen. The reason is that 4 inning pitchers don’t deserve to be in the starting rotation, they are a liability in that role.
Also, lefties tuned him up to the tune of a .846 OPS, righties didn’t fare too bad either, going .780 against him. And the numbers indicate the Feldman isn’t the groundballer that he was prior to changing his arm slot. He has a fairly even gb/fb ratio now.
He’s not a bad pitcher, but he probably isn’t ever going to be in the rotation for a playoff team, and he certainly doesn’t deserve to have a rotation spot handed to him based on what he did last year.
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
No
You don’t go from being a bullpen guy to a starter overnight. Before last year his career high innings in a single season was 70. Last year he more than double that. You act like guys can go from being relievers to starters overnight. They don’t. What he did last year was pretty damn impressive. If this year he can add stamina and be a 6 inning pitcher with a mid 3s ERA tat is damn good. Last year he was essentially a 5 inning pitcher which isn’t too shabby considering in spring training he was a reliever.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
When the Rangers finally gets back into the playoffs
Do you see Feldman as a part of that rotation?
yep
Probably at the back end of the rotation.
Of course I think we will be there in 2010 with a rotation of Sheets (hopeful), McCarthy, Harrison, Hurley, and Feldman. Holland does what David Price did for the Rays this year
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
180 IP, 4.5 ERA
Nothing to vote him for Cy Young but exactly what you hope your #5 starter gives you. Not everyone has 5 aces in their rotations.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Okay, if you think he is going to give you that, I can understand your position
However, I do not agree that Feldman is going to bring you that kind of performance.
As a 5,
I think 150 with a 4.5 would be above league average. I think Feldman could do more than that also. Maybe 160-170, 4.75…to be fair, 180IP from a 5th starter doesn’t happen very often, at all.
Also, someone from BP/BA recently did a study on 5th starters, and it was amazing how many teams would have made the playoffs except for the suck-ass 5th guy in the roto. Maybe someone here has a subscription, and can enlighten us pleebs.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Feldman
Well he hasn’t had any injuries that I am aware of. Last year he averaged 6 innings per start which over a full season would be about 180.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I'm not saying he's injury prone,
and I am a big supporter of his. However, if he was a 5, he would be skipped on off days and such. 6 × 25=150.
Honestly, I would much rather have him as a 5 than Koronkadonk, or Murray, or Gabbard.
I think he has untapped potential as a starter, and I wouldd like him to get a chance. Not saying he’s the next Holland, or Happy, or even Hurley…just that he has earned a chance to show his stuff, IMO.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
McCarthy???... Funk that...
meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...
by oc on Dec 13, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
why
hes the most talented of the group of harrison/hurley/feldman/etc if hes healthy
now if is a huge if but hes head and shoulders above those guys if healthy i think
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Talent
Injuries do affect talent long-term. There’s good reason to think that everything has added up to the point where he’s not much more talented than any of those guys.
And I disagree
At least with our offense
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
So you think
Holland needs another 1 1/2 yrs in the minors?
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
Holland
I think this year he comes back to earth a bit. I think he stays in the minors all year until September and then gets a cameo up in Arlington. 2010 will I believe have more to do with who we do have as opposed to Holland. I still have faith in McCarthy and think that he will solidify himself as a solid front of rotation guy. Feldman continues to be a solid guy in the rotation and we won’t risk losing him by DFAing him. And Harrison and Hurley will be solid enough to push Holland to OKC to start the year and be the guy who comes up for injuries and stuff. Then around the ASB he comes and works out of the pen down the stretch. I would love to be wrong though.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
"I still have faith in McCarthy and think that he will solidify himself as a solid front of rotation guy."
Dude, you’re smoking crack.
Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.
Forget the Royals
It is not being outspent by the Royals that gives me pause, but they fact any addition in payroll must be accompanied by the trade of either Millwood, Padilla, Blalock or whomever when there are glaring holes in this team. It does not matter who is pitching next season, everyone would be helped by improving the IF defense, namely 3B. Crede is just sitting there as a FA. He would be a huge boost defensively, and is adequate with the bat. Yes, the injury history is problematic, but if the Rangers are seriously considering starting Metcalf there next season, then they have an adequate (at least in their eyes) replacement should an injury occur to Crede. The question isn’t the possibly of injury or a 93 OPS+, but money. They Rangers should wisely spend their money (a one-year, incentive laden deal to Crede seems wise to me) to make improvements. Whether or not these expenditures push the Rangers’ payroll above the Royals or any other team is irrelevant.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 13, 2008 4:12 PM CST reply actions
Agreed
our defense does nothing to help our pitchers. If anything, it makes our pitchers walk more batters because they aren’t pitching to contact as much.
I don’t think Crede would be a bad sign at all. Who is going to play 3B right now? Metcalf. I don’t think that helps our pitching
Wait 'til the year after next
id rather get adrian beltre
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 13, 2008 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think we are all aware...
of the direction JD and Nolan are trying to take this team right now. They are trying to build around the farm system, and it’s working. Now if in 1-2 years (when this team can contend for a pennant) we still hear this payroll limitation talk then I will be upset. For now it doesn’t bother me.
Besides I really don’t want to see the Rangers spend 160 mi on CC, 80 mil on Burnett or Lowe, 50 mil on Furcal, etc. Sheets however makes sense, because of his asking price right now, and getting rid of Millwood or Padilla to do that is fine since they don’t fit into the long-term plans with the team when the young guys will be ready anyway.
As far as the Royals go I think their payroll is going to be trimmed. Jose Guillen’s time there is limited I believe, but of course they could replace him with Furcal. Either way I wouldn’t trade the Royals position for that of the Rangers right now at all. It is a little tough to look at payrolls right now and see them above the Rangers though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
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