John Schuerholz flips out
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 18, 2008 6:41 PM CST
75 comments
John Schuerholz torques out on Rafael Furcal and his agents:
“Having been in this business for 40-some years, I’ve never seen anybody treated like that,” Schuerholz said. “The Atlanta Braves will no longer do business with that company — ever. I told [agent] Arn Tellem that we can’t trust them to be honest and forthright. I told him that in all my years, I’ve never seen any [agency] act in such a despicable manner.
“It was disgusting and unprofessional. We’re a proud organization and we won’t allow ourselves to be treated that way. I advised Arn Tellem that whatever players he represents, just scratch us off the list. Take the name of the Atlanta Braves off their speed dial. They can deal with the other 29 clubs and we’ll deal with the other hundred agents.”
* * *
“I expressed my great disappointment to him,” he said. “I watched as Frank shared with me the circumstances of his negotiations with Furcal — negotiations to the point where we increased our offer and he [Kinzer] then asked for a signed term sheet to be sent over. We never got that signed term sheet faxed back to us and we later found out why — because they took that offer and shopped it.”
When asked about Tellem’s reaction, Schuerholz said: “He was surprised. He tried to explain himself. He said he had nothing to do with it — it was the work of Paul Kinzer. I reminded him that [Kinzer] works for him and he has to stand behind the people who work for him. I told him I was making this official, and I was going to make it public.”
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Good
I support this 100%. A person’s word should mean something
by BEW on Dec 18, 2008 6:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yes and no
When your job is to look after a $100 million ballclub, the other person’s word means squat until you get the deal done. On the other, when you represent a bunch of clients and you crap your credibility down your leg, you done F’d up. I don’t care if the agent wants to blame it on Furcal (the client) it’s your own credibility that went down the tubes.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Dec 18, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Schuerholz
He flipped out when Tom Glavine changed his mind to sign with the Mets and when the almost-finalized Barry Bonds trade with the Pirates fell apart back when he was first GM of the Braves. For some reason, the Braves and Schuerholz have a record of people falling back on their word or them taking someone saying something out of context. Either way, it’s a little strange that the Braves have this type of thing happen to them enough to notice it.
by Andy Seiler on Dec 18, 2008 6:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And
I think Paul Kinzer gets fired over this. This affects us as Ranger fans, because Padilla is officially represented by him and has a possible contract year coming up. Max Ramirez is also represented by the same company, though I don’t know if Kinzer is his specific agent.
by Andy Seiler on Dec 18, 2008 7:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ethics
Adios, old friend, we knew you well.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Dec 18, 2008 7:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
ethics
……same as they’ve always been.
"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
by red shoe ranger on Dec 18, 2008 7:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
sweet drama
glad it’s not happening to us…
as far as Padilla’s concerned, how will that directly impact the way he plays for us, or the return we get from a trade if we decide to trade him?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Dec 18, 2008 7:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Impacts his future
You can always argue that a player can be distracted by things in his life and that is carried onto the field. I’m not one to trust that so much, but it’s possible. Possibly being involved in an agent/agency dispute can be a distraction, and it might enter any future negotiations the club has with Padilla if he has a good year and they want him after his 2010 option year. Changing agents or your management agency altogether can be very bad in a contract year, especially considering your agent was just told never to call the Braves again. Would you want to be that player that is limited in his free agent options because his agent screwed up? Nope.
by Andy Seiler on Dec 18, 2008 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
I don’t understand why he’s so upset. If I’m reading the statement correctly, Atlanta faxed an offer and this agent shopped and ultimately rejected it. Why is that something despicable? I see nothing there to indicate that any sort of agreement was reached orally.
If it’s just that Atlanta is pissed because they didn’t win, then I say let them throw their little pity party and then sack up.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:20 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
That's how I read it too
Kind of left me scratching my head.
Gerald Laird: One Man, 5 Scoops.
by Maximilian on Dec 18, 2008 7:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that...
the Braves probably did have a verbal agreement when they faxed the offer over and that is why Schuerholz is upset. Either way it’s hard for me to really feel sorry for either side in something like this.
Players and agents use other teams to drive up a deal with someone else all the time.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 18, 2008 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
An offer is an offer. If they had an oral agreement beforehand, then this sheet wouldn’t even be an offer, but a confirmation of some kind. But there’s nothing in that story or Atlanta’s statement to indicate that their offer was accepted.
Saying “Tell me the lowest price you would sell” doesn’t mean you’re obligated to buy at whatever price the other person quotes.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he is saying that...
…Linzer saying “We’re good” is synonymous with him saying “We have a deal.”
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 18, 2008 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Head scratch
I didn’t see that. Where’s that at?
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
…I have no idea how much stuff like this happens, but it certainly sounds to me like they reached a firm verbal agreement:
According to Wren, this is how the situation played out:
Wren reached agreement on the terms of a contract with Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer, on Monday night, pending the approval of Furcal.
Between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m. ET Monday night, Wren spoke with Kinzer three or four times, negotiating the dollar amount, the years and terms of the vesting option, and other contractual details.
Wren and Kinzer spoke again around midnight Monday night. Kinzer told Wren that he had not yet heard back from Furcal, but that Furcal was excited and that “we’re good.”
On Tuesday morning, Wren woke up to a voicemail from Kinzer telling him to put a term sheet (the standard baseball term for an official contract offer) together.
Wren went into his office in Atlanta, put the term sheet together and signed it.
Shortly thereafter, Kinzer began “backpedaling,” saying he promised the Dodgers he would talk to them.
If that’s accurate, that’s a verbal agreement. I seriously doubt it’s standard for a team to send a signed official contract offer to a free agent while they’re still negotiating.
by jthig32 on Dec 18, 2008 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Not necessarily. “We’re good” may be an acceptance, but it would depend almost entirely on the context, I would think. So that’s probably beyond any of us unless we get an exact transcript.
But you can’t say that sending a signed offer necessarily means that an oral agreement has been reached.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can.
Both articles have made it sound like those are not sent until everything is agreed upon.
by jthig32 on Dec 18, 2008 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
You can’t. Then the word “offer” would be meaningless. Of course they send the offer after they’ve finished their preliminary negotiations. That’s just smart business. Otherwise, they’d have to keep sending it back and forth with cancellations and markups.
It sounds like they completely wrapped up negotiations and then Atlanta sent an offer. That’s not a contract, though. If “we’re good” meant “we have a deal” then OK, but if just meant “we have no objections to these terms” then that’s not enough.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the question...
…is whether or not there is a binding oral contract.
I think it is whether a deal was reached.
If I’m negotiating a settlement in a case, and I’m talking to someone, and I say my client will take $250,000, and the lawyer calls back and says we’re good, and I say great, put it in written form and fax it to me, and the other lawyer does that, then I call back and say, oh, nevermind…
Well, if I do that a couple of times, my reputation is going to be shot.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 18, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It may be
That stringing along Atlanta was a shitty business move, but Schuerholz is making it sound like something completely unethical happened, and it just doesn’t seem like it to me.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What Schuerholz is saying....
…is that they had a deal, and Furcal’s people backed out because L.A. came in late with a better offer.
It isn’t Carlos Boozer-level sleaze, but if you make a deal and then back out, that’s still shady.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 18, 2008 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Just like the Marlins backing out on the Beckett deal.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
by Longhorn on Dec 18, 2008 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was
Confused as well. Is he talking about the Danks deal? If so..huh?
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Again, it kinda seems up to interpretation as to whether or not a deal was reached.
If Schuerholz firmly believed, and I assume he does, that they had a deal, I understand the agitation. I’m just not seeing where there was a definitive deal reached.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
basically you just don’t believe him?
Or you just think they had a misunderstanding?
by jthig32 on Dec 18, 2008 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like
A misunderstanding to me.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
misunderstanding?
which is why arm tellerm says he had nothing to do with it as opposed to just saying it was a misunderstanding?
sure…
This was no misunderstanding. It’s pretty obvious that there is a certain way that the Braves expect to do business and these guys didn’t follow it and it’s not so much of a leap to infer that Kinzer knew he was doing something shady. He clearly misled the Braves.
It might be legal but it’s certainly a dirtbag thing to do. And, most likely, dumb for business
Mandatory reading before suggesting a trade
by ab03 on Dec 19, 2008 2:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reminds me of the old expression...
“Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean you SHOULD”
What he did may be legal, but it doesn’t sound right. I think some people tend to forget that “right” SHOULD trump “legal” when it comes to dealing with people that you hope to deal with again.
Personally, I prefer to work with people who lean more toward the former than the latter, but that’s just me.
by bking on Dec 19, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or, to use another quote
“Am I wrong?”
“No, you’re not wrong, Walter. You’re just an asshole”
Mandatory reading before suggesting a trade
by ab03 on Dec 19, 2008 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Moneypit?
If that’s it, I love that movie.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Dec 19, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Schuerholz can't act like he hasn't done something like this.
In his book he talked about when Glavine left for the Mets. Signed for 3/35. The Braves had offered 3/30. Ok. Well, when Glavine then said to Schuerholz in a meeting that he would like to return to the Braves, do you know what Schuerholz’s reaction is? Screw the 3 year deal we offered you. Here’s a two year offer. How sleazy is that? Now that we know you want to come back and play for us, we’re going to downgrade our offer to you. Then he got all pissed that Glavine went with the Mets deal, and he specifically called out Glavine’s agent, Gregg Clifton, on persuading Glavine to leave.
Schuerholz really has a problem with agents, and some people in general just don’t get along with him. Unfortunately for those people, they end up in books ghostwritten by someone who knows nothing about baseball and just listened to his rants for what was likely hours on end.
by Andy Seiler on Dec 18, 2008 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boozer, HAH!
That was actually kind of funny. The Cavs were trying to break the rules and fuck the system, but then as soon as they moved Carlos Boozer hid behind the rules of the system to fuck them.
IMO you can’t really get too upset at a guy when he reneges on your secret illegal agreement for his own gain.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on Dec 18, 2008 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
just like with the joe smith situation a while back.
but because the cavs did something extremely unethical, carlos is…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
by Longhorn on Dec 18, 2008 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boozer...
was all I heard today. Jazz fans are pissed off because he is still sitting on the bench hurt and Paul Millsap(?) has been playing well. Then Boozer decides to announce to ESPN that he will make more $ next year regardless and will opt out of his deal with the Jazz.
Jazz fans are finding out what it was like to be a Cav fan a little while ago. Boozer is a grade A jackass.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 18, 2008 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question: Is Lebron a jackass for the way he's handling his pending FA?
It’s funny that we want our athletes to be honest and not just give us the Crash Davis talking points, but as soon as a guy who has an opt-out clause he’d be crazy NOT to exercise goes ahead and says what everyone already knows (that he’s going to exercise his opt-out), everyone jumps down his throat.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on Dec 18, 2008 11:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have a problem...
with him saying he will opt out.
My problem is with the timing. He announced this in the middle of the season while he’s on the bench hurt. He’s upset that another player who plays his position is doing well and getting praised for it. I agree he would be crazy to not opt out, but he should have said that before the season or waited ’til the season was over imo.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 19, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Especially if you have a Facebook page
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by DaheelzCM on Dec 18, 2008 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's my take....
No offense to the lawyers in the crowd, but the defenses of the agent that I have read all seem to fall into the “wiggle words” and “depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is” variety.
Based largely on the assumption that Wren has a pretty firm idea of how this contract business usually plays out, and that he considers this outside the bounds, I’d side with him here. My understanding is that a term sheet is pretty much the contract high points spelled out and ready to be signed, where the small details can still be hashed out after the deal is done.
by bking on Dec 19, 2008 9:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think most of the lawyers agree with you on this.
I certainly do.
by Athos on Dec 19, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where'd you get that? It's not in the article I just read. Is there a second page or something?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on Dec 18, 2008 8:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenthal
It’s in the Rosenthal article that Adam linked to previously.
by jthig32 on Dec 18, 2008 9:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What I get from reading that
is Kinzer thought verbally (though not legally) accepted a deal from Atlanta but then got a better offer from LA. The ethical thing to do, of course is to say, sorry, too late I just accepted another offer. But he sees $$$$$$ and knows that legally he’s ok so he backpedals out of the Atlanta deal.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 18, 2008 11:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds to me like...
the sheet they faxed is the official paper to sign after a deal is reached, sort of like when you’re buying a car and you agree on a price and sign paperwork, and then sign the last sheet, the one that goes to the DMV. The way I’m reading this, it’s sort of like MLB’s version of that DMV paper.
by Inkara1 on Dec 18, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
From everything I’ve read, you don’t send that paper unless everything is agreed upon.
by jthig32 on Dec 18, 2008 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I guess I was initially looking at it strictly from a contract point of view, not really whether or not a deal was in place, so Adam was right to kind of direct me away from that.
Maybe it is that this agent should have known the way MLB works and so he did fuck up. Could be.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You just finished 1L Contracts, right?
You’re right that there wasn’t an enforceable contract. Adam hit the nail on the head. When you’re negotiating something like that and you tell the other side that everything’s “good”, and then back out of it, you’ve gone back on your word. I’ve had that happen a couple of times in my career and whenever I deal with those lawyers now, everything has to be in writing because I won’t take their word on anything. If my understanding of the situation is correct, Schuerholz has good reason to be pissed.
by Athos on Dec 18, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, though
We don’t really know the context in which “we’re good” was said. We just don’t.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, logic would indicate that "we're good" was interpreted by ...
Schuerholz to mean “we’ve got a deal”. Otherwise, there’s really no reason to get pissed, is there?
by Athos on Dec 18, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course.
I have no doubt he feels that way. The question is whether that is a reasonable interpretation. It could have meant, for instance, that “we have no objections”, which is not the same thing as “we’ve got a deal”. To me, that would mean “we’re now at the stage where we can go to the player and get final confirmation.” If that were the case, then Schuerholz wouldn’t have much reason to be bitching so hard.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's HIS feelings that really count.
He’s apparently pissed enough to forgo any future negotiations with Tellem’s clients. I think you’re looking at this thing in an attempt to draw a legal-type conclusion. If that’s the case, you’re attempting an analysis that is irrelevant. Right or wrong, a relationship has been damaged because of communications made to the Braves. That’s certainly something a baseball agent ought to avoid at all costs.
by Athos on Dec 18, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
I’m looking at whether or not he’s justified in his loss of trust and public outrage.
If the agent didn’t do anything “wrong”, then he shouldn’t be forced to have his name sullied by a pouting bully. So I reject that “right or wrong” is the operative analysis here. It matters quite a bit who was “right” and “wrong”.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly fun to debate.
But in the end, the conclusion means nothing unless you can bring in the “fairness” police to make Atlanta deal with Tellum’s agency in the future. Since that’s probably not going to happen, right or wrong, Atlanta has the power and right to play it the way they are playing it.
by Athos on Dec 18, 2008 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's
Arguing otherwise? Of course they can do this.
by brettgardner on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What would you say if
the agent’s company fired him over this? Would you interpret that as a move to save face with the other 29 MLB franchises, or the agent’s company agreeing with the Braves that what the agent did was sleazy?
by jwiscarson on Dec 19, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they
Really felt that way, wouldn’t he have been fired immediately after this happened?
Who knows, really? I don’t really care what the company’s motivation is or would be. Pretty irrelevant.
by brettgardner on Dec 19, 2008 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, there wasn't an enforceable contract
That’s why it stops at Schuerholz being pissed, with no lawsuit being filed.
by Inkara1 on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Tellem represent Carlos Boozer too?
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by DaheelzCM on Dec 18, 2008 7:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Todd Zeile do something like this to us once?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on Dec 18, 2008 9:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I get the impression
that baseball contract negotiations are done verbally. When an agreement is reached, a “term sheet” is sent to the agent for the player to sign. After that, a contract is drafted. signed and submitted to the league.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 18, 2008 9:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sickels really needs to employ the use
of the enter key more than twice in a post.
by jwiscarson on Dec 19, 2008 12:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
GM Ryan wants Rangers to show toughness..
this may have already been linked on here from USA Today but if not..here it is
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/rangers/2008-12-18-organizational-report_N.htm?csp=34
"You shouldn't fuck around with windfalls"
LoneStarJon
by LAMuscleFag on Dec 18, 2008 11:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the link.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh - usatoday
Headline = wrong job title
Low A team = Hickory not Clinton.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Dec 19, 2008 12:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL yeh the GM thing..
is unbelievable… they call him the GM in the title and then the president in the first sentence.
"You shouldn't fuck around with windfalls"
LoneStarJon
by LAMuscleFag on Dec 19, 2008 12:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Woah
Minor League Ball’s Rangers List
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/12/19/697333/texas-rangers-top-20-prosp
3 As.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 18, 2008 11:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Woah check this out...
So
does Feliz end up the #2 pitching prospect behind Price then?
“So’s your mom”-David Sloane
by gatling on Dec 18, 2008 11:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
probably
Probably.
by John Sickels on Dec 18, 2008 11:48 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
by TxStCa on Dec 19, 2008 6:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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