Sickels rankings are posted
by RangerMad
on Dec 18, 2008 11:32 PM CST
155 comments
This deserves a fanpost. THREE A rated players!!!! A pitcher, firstbaseman and shortstop.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/
SYSTEM IN BRIEF:
The Rangers have three of the best prospects in baseball, several others who project as major league regulars, and a whole bevy of Grade C+ type guys, some of them breakout candidates for higher grades next year. I love the way they have run this farm system in recent years: they have mixed raw and polished talent in the draft, and have made a big push in Latin America. The Rangers are looking at every source of talent: college, high school, other countries, guys with tools, guys with skills. The result is a system with both depth and breadth, and the future of this organization is quite bright.
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Whoah
Andrus got an A-? Wow. That says a lot about how much Sickels must like him. I’m also surprised he’s Guillermo Moscoso so high and Blake Beavan so low, especially considering Beav still put up the numbers despite his loss of velocity.
And Eric Hurley all the way down at #20… KoK was right about Sickels ranking him low, if nothing else. That’s a bit too low IMO.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 18, 2008 11:47 PM CST
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few things
1) im excited he had kennil gomez that high. i really think he jumps the most ofa ny prospect on our farm next year
2) wow. hurley is super low, but then again i mean he has the same (overall) grade as the #12 guy. and also since i value ceiling idk if i would have him over some of the guys above him but i expected him to be in the 15-16 range
3) if beaven doesnt regain that velo, does he deserve to be higher? eveidently sickles doesnt think its gonna come back
4) somewhat suprised vallejo is so low
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:42 AM CST
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Hurley is too low
I’m not sure what concerns are out there about his health that would knock him down that much.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 12:02 AM CST
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Health
Hurley did miss 3 months combined and made only 19 starts this year with shoulder issues. That’s something to be concerned about.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:07 AM CST
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Yeah
but that seemed to be more of a Connor thing plus the Rangers being cautious. I don’t believe he’s ever had any injury issues in the minors.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 12:14 AM CST
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Yep
That was the first time in his pro career he’d been on the DL, if I recall correctly.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 12:14 AM CST
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However
He has a bit of a history of wearing down late in the year. 2007 mainly. And you can’t blame Connor for Hurley’s issues.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:19 AM CST
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You can't blame Connor for letting him take the mound in Oakland?
Really? Because there’s no way Hurley should’ve made that start.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 12:23 AM CST
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He doesn't decide
The person controlling the roster move makes the decision. That would be our GM. If you want someone on the field to blame, it’s the trainer. The trainer is the one who says whether a pitcher can physically go or not.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:25 AM CST
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Maybe
But Connor’s still the one out there in the bullpen, watching these guys and coaching these guys in their side sessions. He should be able to tell when a guys not right and do something about it, and he never seemed to be able to do that. Luis Mendoza’s early season injury comes to mind, when Connor said he “suspected” something was up with Mendoza but didn’t press him about it until Mendoza imploded in Detroit.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 12:33 AM CST
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Connor's also the one
that kept toying with pitchers the second they came up to the Majors last season.
And yeah, Connor should have known something was up with Hurley when he was losing 10 mph off his fastball.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 12:37 AM CST
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Back to this?
There’s a tendency to blame pitching coaches for everything involving pitchers. That’s not the way it is at all. There is a long list of people that are supposed to do their job well concerning injuries before it ever gets to the pitching coach. On a day a guy returns from the DL for a start, everything starts with the trainer. And we don’t know what Connor said to Wash about this kind of thing, too. For all we know, Connor might have said he shouldn’t go, but Wash said otherwise. It all comes down to everybody doing their job well and not just one guy screwing everything up for the rest of them.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:41 AM CST
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Well when that pitching coach
Took a pitcher with great mechanics like McCarthy and royally fucked him up, and then we hear reports about how he wanted to try and give Harrison more of a vulcan change-up and what not.
And if Connor knows that Hurley isn’t ready to go, he’s got to make sure Wash understands that. Sending a young pitcher out on the mound hurt doesn’t help the team now or in the future and is dangerous for that pitcher. Especially after the whole CJ incident from earlier in the season, its a lesson the Rangers should have learned.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 12:47 AM CST
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look if hurley was hurt either a) the trainer should ahve said somethign b) the player should have said something c) the bullpen coach should have said something or d) the pitching coach should have said something, hell e) the bullpen catcher should have said something f) anyone who saw his bullpen should have said something
one way or another, he should have said something if he was hurt. i love how we crucify guys like mendoza and (some) BGL but if hurley didnt know he was hurt we have some bigger problems than the fact that his prospect star has diminished over the last 2 years
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:45 AM CST
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He's a 22 year old
with a chance to crack the Major League rotation who has never had any injury issues in the past. You just can’t expect him to have said that he isn’t capable of starting. Even if he knew he wasn’t 100%, he was going to go out there and try his best. Now the pitching coach who is in charge of all things pitching probably should have said something.
I don’t crucify CJ, but he knows better than to try to pitch through something serious. He’s gone through serious issues before and the team was going to stick with him as a major part of the bullpen no matter what. He thought he could pitch through it and he was obviously wrong.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 11:29 AM CST
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again, lets get this straight
we blast guys like mendoza and CJ wilson for pitching hurt yet hurley might not know he isnt hurt?
…so whats different btwn this and mendoza/s getting hurt?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 6:36 PM CST
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I'm not talking about Mendoza
I never brought him up and don’t know what you are talking about with him. I don’t blast CJ, but I’m not exactly thrilled that he knew he was hurt, he fully understands the problems of trying to pitch through injuries, and yet still did it for a good long while. The difference between CJ and Hurley is that CJ has had serious injury problems in the past. He had Tommy John surgery and knows that you take care of injuries as soon as you can because you aren’t helping the team pitching like crap and you aren’t helping yourself by delaying the treatment and rehab.
Hurley on the other hand hasn’t gone through that process. When did he have to have major surgery? When was he unable to pitch for a long period of time because of injuries?
And as I said, CJ already had a place on this team. It wasn’t going away anytime soon even if he was on the DL. Hurley was still trying to do all he could to never have to go back to the minors again. Even if he knew he was hurt, he would do whatever it took to prove himself to the team and earn a permanent spot on the 25 man roster.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 7:16 PM CST
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But Mendoza and Hurley are very similar in this regard
Mendoza hadn’t ever had major injury issues and was injured and didn’t tell anyone about it. He was trying to keep a spot in the rotation and never go back to the minors. In doing so he cost his team a game and possibly more by forcing us to overtax our bullpen. He and Hurley did the same thing. Mendoza was railed on for doing so, by myself included, and so should Hurley.
You are right that CJ should have known better and didn’t have the roster uncertainty the other two did.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Dec 19, 2008 7:22 PM CST
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Well I don't really blame Mendoza
I’m certainly not happy about and especially since he knew about it, but the coaches and trainers need to know what’s going on with their own pitchers.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 7:43 PM CST
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CJ and pitching hurt.
Most guys are gonna try to pitch through pain.
It’s up to the team to decide at what point a less than fully healthy guy is putting either himself or the team at risk by going out there injured.
Unless he hid the injury from them, which I really doubt. Like REALLY doubt.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 21, 2008 10:42 PM CST
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I can't say for sure
but wasn’t it said at the time that CJ and the team both knew he was hurt for a while.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 22, 2008 12:48 AM CST
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Yah that's what I got out of it.
Of course you had to read pretty close or you wouldn’t have caught something little like that amidst all the under-bus-throwing that was going on from CJ’s teammates, his coaches and pretty much everyone involved in any way shape or form with the Rangers’ organization.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 22, 2008 12:59 AM CST
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R.I.P. BGL
"A ~.650 OPS from a COF should get you deported, not traded for."
- The Huntressatron
by Chase Irwin on
Dec 23, 2008 6:18 PM CST
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Wow
Sickels list surprised me. Thought that Andrus would get a B+, never expected him to be in the A range. Beltre and his analysis on him (for a B) was good to hear, stating that he might have time to continue improving skills in order to reach the Five Tools (or to sickels, seven tools).
Hurley’s drop was surprising as well. Sickels was so high on him last year, and to see him drop all the way to a C+ was a shock. Last year he was a B+ I believe? Also, he believes that a change of scenery would be good for him…can’t we just give him a chance?
He likes Smoak better than Alonso and Hosmer. Love it
One of the high points of this list is how many times Sickels stated that one of our players is a breakout candidate. Basically, he states that Beltre, Main, Perez, N. Ramirez, Gomez (wow, he’s ranked low in our community rankings), Boscan, Font, and Wieland. Because of this, I’m already ready for next years list…
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on
Dec 19, 2008 12:03 AM CST
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Also, look at the comments...
One guy asked if Feliz, because of his ranking, is the second pitching prospect only behind Price. Sickel’s answer: probably….
Wow, he’s high on him…
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on
Dec 19, 2008 12:07 AM CST
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Sickels said he’s going to be moving Cahill and Anderson up, which means he likes both better than Derek Holland. That evens out the Feliz love.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:08 AM CST
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I think he just said Anderson.
Could be wrong though
by rothe on
Dec 19, 2008 12:56 PM CST
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Na, both:
grades I am likely going to boost Anderson and Cahill to A-
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on
Dec 19, 2008 1:25 PM CST
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To be fair
those are likely two top 20 prospects, no shame and Holland being in the 20’s or 30’s
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 2:49 PM CST
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Hurley
I’m glad to see he agrees with me on Hurley. But even I have Hurley a few spots higher than Sickels.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:09 AM CST
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I do have a question though...
Is Hurley’s drop in ranking due to his year (not as dominate as the past, injury concerns this year) or more of other prospects separating themselves from Hurley?
In Smoak We Trust
by Smoak Some on
Dec 19, 2008 12:11 AM CST
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Probably a combination of both...
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Dec 19, 2008 12:11 AM CST
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Still Hurley was a Top 100 prospect
now he’s not at all.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Dec 19, 2008 12:12 AM CST
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Definitely both
Hurley’s been passed up by high-rising prospects, but for me it’s more about his drop. I didn’t like him too much last year either. But he’s really shown all the components that should scare any Ranger fan away. He could easily improve, but all signs all leading to disappointment.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:13 AM CST
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Hurley’s been passed up by high-rising prospects, but for me it’s more about his drop. I didn’t like him too much last year either. But he’s really shown all the components that should scare any Ranger fan away. He could easily improve, but all signs all leading to disappointment.
this is almost exactly how i feel
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:53 AM CST
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i'm the opposite on him
if he were a stock, I’d buy low on him. He really appeared to turn a corner just before his injury last season, and I think a full offseason of training, after having tasted the majors, will do him some good. I would rank my expectations for major league impact and effectiveness next year thusly:
1. Hurley
2. BMac
3. Feldman
4. Harrison
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:26 AM CST
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it was FOUR major league starts
how is that turning a corner?
say it with me, small sample size…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 9:28 AM CST
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not really
he has been pretty consistent throughout the minors. he is a flyball pitcher and will always give up HRs, but he has also always carried a very solid WHIP and a low BABIP, which makes me think he draws a lot of weak contact. The Rick Helling comp has been thrown around quite a bit, and I like it, although I still think Hurley has more upside.
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:49 AM CST
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Hurley had a habit of starting slow in games and then ...
making adjustments that allowed him to shut teams down. I like that quality in a pitcher. I think that, once he has had a chance to pitch on a regular basis in the majors, he’ll start figuring hitters out and his struggles in early innings will evaporate. Good things are going to happen with Hurley.
by Athos on
Dec 19, 2008 9:51 AM CST
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i think
in a fictional scenario where each guy was given a chance to start the year in the rotation, they would post lines like this:
Hurley, 4.6 ERA over 200 IP
BMac, 4.4 ERA over 140 IP
Feldman, 5.0 ERA over 160 IP
Harrison, 5.3 ERA over 160 IP
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:56 AM CST
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Those four
would make one of the Ranger’s better rotations lately.
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 10:29 AM CST
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ranges
Hurley 4.50 – 5.00
BMac 3.75 – 4.25
Feldman 4.75 – 5.25
Harrison 4.00 – 4.50
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 10:33 AM CST
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That's very optimistic
on McCarthy and Harrison. In particular, if Harrison could do that, he’d probably be the ace of the staff and a rotation anchor here. I’m not a believer that he’s going to be those things.
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 19, 2008 10:38 AM CST
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I am generally a
glass half full type of person.
The reason that I am optimistic in Harrison is that he is far along on the ML learning curve. Danks had a rough first year. Harrison is not as talented as Danks, but he is a smart pitcher and I think he will make the neccessary adjustments this winter and ST to have a good 2009.
Also, BMac make 30 starts but only puts up 130 innings. :)
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 10:55 AM CST
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I like glass half full people
but one thing about which I’ve learned to consider the empty half is in projecting Rangers rotations. :)
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 19, 2008 11:13 AM CST
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There's glass half full
and then there’s pretending an ounce is a gallon. That’s what that Harrison prediction seems like. The McCarthy one might just be an ounce-quart ratio.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on
Dec 19, 2008 11:27 AM CST
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McCarthy ... an ounce-quart ratio
The 30 starts or 130 innings?
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:24 PM CST
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He said to not put too much stock in the exact rankings
Sickels said he didn’t put too much time past the top 10 and the C+ players could probably be moved around.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 12:16 AM CST
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Yeah I don't know what people are worked up about
Saying this guy is too low or that guy is too high on the list.
As usual, don’t sweat so much about where the Grade C+ types rank exactly on this list. I’m concentrating on the book right now, and don’t spend a lot of time on exact rankings here once I get past the Top 10.
It doesn’t matter if Hurley is at 20 or Moscoso at 13 or Gomez at 14 or Beaven at 15. They are all pretty interchangeable on his list. I am sure that if he did the list again it would be a different order, but the same grades which are what really matter.
He even mentioned that you could put Font at 12 if you were high on young and big upside or Hunter at 12 if you were high on closer to MLB ready. He is always pretty fluid in his C+ guys. I really like that because really it is always changing all the time anyway and the order and the names on the list will change a lot over the course of 2009 anyways so I don’t think there is any reason to get worked up over who is where exactly on the list.
by brentash on
Dec 19, 2008 9:52 AM CST
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I don't "worry" about the rankings
but I do want to know why Hurley dropped from B+ to C+.
by bushe on
Dec 19, 2008 1:37 PM CST
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scenery
yes, yes hell yes it effects him
throw him in petco and hes a servicable starter this year
same pitcher at TBiA = much higher ERA
thats how i read it at least
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:46 AM CST
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wow
I almost cried.
"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley
by trza on
Dec 19, 2008 12:10 AM CST
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Real high on Gomez
Not a fan of Hurley at all…what a drop.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Dec 19, 2008 12:10 AM CST
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TT
5) Taylor Teagarden, C, Grade B: Excellent glove with power, could hit anywhere from .230 to .280 though
I’ll take a .230 avg with 25 HRs and stellar defense.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:14 AM CST
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Yeah but
I’d also take a .280 avg with 25 HRs and stellar defense!!!
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Dec 19, 2008 12:16 AM CST
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+1
OBP >>>> SLG.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 12:24 AM CST
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What makes you say that?
Slugging percentage is a very valuable tool.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 1:43 AM CST
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Didn't say it wasn't
I’m just saying a hitter’s first and primary objective is to reach base, and therefore a player who has power but doesn’t hit much for average or OBP has limited usefulness.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 2:55 AM CST
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No. A hitter's first and only objective is to score runs.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 12:32 PM CST
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Well, chicken/egg
Gotta be on base to do that.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 1:18 PM CST
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Not if you hit a home run ;)
And slugging percentage kind of implies you reached base safely, no?
Slugging percentage is underrated if you really think that it is >>>> SLG.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 2:17 PM CST
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SLG is overrated
ISO is underrated.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 19, 2008 2:40 PM CST
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Hitting a home run
Is getting on base. All four of them, in fact.
OBP = % of plate appearances where a batter doesn’t make an out
Getting on base = Not making an out
Not making outs: the most important thing for a hitter
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on
Dec 19, 2008 6:41 PM CST
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I understand this.
Would you rather have a guy who gets on base 35% of the time with a .400 slg or a guy who gets on base 30% of the time but has a .550 slg?
Not making outs is awesome, but what you do with those non-outs matters a lot, too.
And don’t give me that a hit is just as good as a walk, cause it ain’t. In some situations, sure, the result is pretty much the same. But in a lot of situations a single is a ton better than a walk. A double is nice, too. Don’t even get me started on how awesome home runs are.
Also I enjoy the way you explained OBP to me. It was fun. I really had no idea what any of this stuff meant. I always assumed [OBP] = [ERA of the opposing pitcher in day games]. Now I know, and knowing is probably some really complex fraction of the battle.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 21, 2008 10:47 PM CST
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home runs = rally killers
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on
Dec 22, 2008 12:48 AM CST
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Heh, nice.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 22, 2008 12:57 AM CST
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…which is why runs scored is among the most important stats [ /Boston radio ]
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 19, 2008 2:39 PM CST
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Player-dependent...
On-Base Percentage measures the frequency that a player get’s on base, independent of the number of bases a player averages per at-bat. Slugging average— trust me, it’s an average, not a percentage— gives the average number of bases a player gets per at-bats, independent the number of walks or walks per at-bat. Therefore, whether OBP or SLG is more important depends on the “hidden” information not used in calculating each of the two metrics. That means it’s dependent on the player.
"Alright class. Now that I've explained how silly the theory of evloution is, and how it's impossible for a specie to change over time, let's refocus on the Bible. I'd like to direct your attention to Genesis. Okay, now here's how the snake lost his voice..."
by YourNameHere on
Dec 19, 2008 3:24 PM CST
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But would you take .230 with 10-15 hrs?
25 hrs is a ton for a full time C.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 12:19 AM CST
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OK
lets meet halfway: .255 with 18HR.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:25 AM CST
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Yes, that'd be great.
But I’m not ready to guarantee he can post those kind of stats over a full season in the bigs.
He’s injury prone and he strikes out a ton.
If he can be a .250/.350/.400 guy, then that’s fabulous. I’d take that from a stud defender like him in a second.
But I don’t think that’s the slam dunk some seem to think it is.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 1:44 AM CST
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Very interesting list.
Way too low on Beavan.
Way too high on Kennil.
Thought there’d be at least a few more B-‘s, but the A and two A-’s are freaking sweetness.
But a very nice list overall. Sickels does a pretty good job for a one man operation.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.
by thedirkatron on
Dec 19, 2008 12:21 AM CST
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Sickels operation
i think him being a one man operation makes his rankings a bit of a wild card. But i like and respect his opinions.
Two things i like about his rankings, one is that he takes into account the risk of flame out with every player and then in turn accounts for players who are at the higher levels and who are almost guaranteed to be decent ML players. I also like how he has his own 7 tool system, it seems like that system takes into account both the statistical and scouting side of prospects. It also does a very good job covering what makes a good baseball player.
I like were he put Borbon in this regard. I dont think many people would have ranked him at 6 in this system, but he does. Borbon, to me, is almost guaranteed to have the starting CF job in Texas very, very soon, or at least a starting CF job somewhere in the ML by 2010. His floor is very high, but i dont think we give him enough credit for that, Sickels did a good job assesing that in his rankings.
Also, i really liked his note at the bottom:
" love the way they have run this farm system in recent years: they have mixed raw and polished talent in the draft, and have made a big push in Latin America. The Rangers are looking at every source of talent: college, high school, other countries, guys with tools, guys with skills. The result is a system with both depth and breadth, and the future of this organization is quite bright."
This is a very good anecdote on what has made this system so good, and what JD is always stressing when he talks about prospect aquisition. It never seems like we focus all are resources on one avenue of aquisition, we’ve done a very good job of spreading our money, resources and scouting personel over all areas
by blalock84 on
Dec 19, 2008 12:29 AM CST
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Borbon
I am starting to warm up to Borbon. He had a good ST and is adjusting well to pro ball. I just noticed that he had a .839 OPS in Frisco. If he has a good 2009 ST he could start off in OKC.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:36 AM CST
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why too high on kennil?
what about him do you not like?
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 12:30 AM CST
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Beavan
Definitely too low on Beavan… even with the loss of velocitys, the control was too good to ignore… just imagine if he starts hitting mid to upper 90s again… WOW
Just love the Smoak love
But I have to disagree with the Andrus ranking, wayyy too high…. I hope I’m wrong though
by Baseball North on
Dec 19, 2008 12:32 AM CST
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but if he doesnt regain the velo, is he yusimo pettit?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:54 AM CST
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pettit
still carried solid K numbers throughout his time in the minors. His velo has already ticked back up a bit. Those expecting him to pitch regularly at 95 and occasionally above will be disappointed, but then that was never a realistic scenario. But those fearing that he is now a guy who works at 87-88 regularly are too pessimistic. I could see him working consistently between 90-92, occasionally running a bit higher, and that’s okay.
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:52 AM CST
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wow
that was two separate thoughts. the first sentence was about pettit, whose lower level success was I think more about a unique delivery and decent control over his offspeed stuff for his age.
The rest of the stuff, about velocity, was about Beavan.
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:53 AM CST
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I also like this comment
16) Wilfredo Boscan, RHP, Grade C+: Yet another breakthrough candidate. Low-A is gonna be loaded in ’09.
Who will be in the Clinton rotation?
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:32 AM CST
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Perez, Boscan, Ramirez, Pimentel, and that old kid from the AZL
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 12:35 AM CST
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Perez
I’d say Perez gets held back to start the year for extended to limit his innings. And who’s the “old kid?”
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:37 AM CST
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I guess i was thinking of
Miguel de los Santos. I am curious to see where they place O’Campo and Wieland as well.
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 7:41 AM CST
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old kid is the guy from cuba i think
cant remember his name, never pitched state-side though
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 9:12 AM CST
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Reinier Bermudez?
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on
Dec 19, 2008 9:15 AM CST
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yea thats him!
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 9:28 AM CST
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yes
that is who i was thinking of. very nice.
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:31 AM CST
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And he was in the DSL not AZL.
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on
Dec 19, 2008 9:34 AM CST
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well then scratch his name
still, by June, it seems Perez, Ramirez, Boscan, Pimentel, MDLS, O’Campo and Wieland could all be in the mix, correct?
by clark on
Dec 19, 2008 9:58 AM CST
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Ross could pop into Hickory from EST, Beavan-style, too.
by Keynes on
Dec 19, 2008 10:58 AM CST
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plus Miggie and Ocampo
Font could get assigned to extended and get a late assignment there…
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 12:38 AM CST
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Both for extended
Both Miggie and Ocampo didn’t log enough innings this season to warrant a starting rotation spot at Hickory to start the season. They could conceivably start in the bullpen and join the rotation later or in small spurts, a la Jorge Quintero. I think Miggie has the best chance of the two to break camp with Hickory, but in the bullpen. I see Ocampo in Hickory probably around mid-May. He’ll be around 100 innings in 2009.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 12:45 AM CST
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Bleh...
Those guys play a lot of games in extended spring training so there’s no way for us to know how many actual innings they threw last year. For all we know, O Campo could have thrown just as many innings as Beavan last year. Not likely, but possible.
by Schrute Farms on
Dec 19, 2008 12:58 AM CST
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Possible
It’s definitely possible that Ocampo breaks camp with Hickory, but the difference between him and a Neil Ramirez was that Ramirez played a higher level. And innings are more about competitive innings. If Ocampo threw as many innings total in general as Beavan, it doesn’t really matter, because Beavan had many more competitive innings, which are more wearing on the arm. I just don’t see them jumping Ocampo two levels to a full-season team without about a month of extended in order to ensure his arm doesn’t get overworked.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 19, 2008 6:12 AM CST
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I agree with Miggie but not Ocampo
His 52 ip were more than Feliz threw last year and Ramirez this yr. In addition to extended of course, and the bullpen, the other option is to have them split starts again this yr. It will be real interesting to see how this gets managed, this best of all possible problems.
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 1:01 AM CST
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that is, I agree that miggie
is a good candidate to be held back in AZ
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 1:03 AM CST
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Brigham could also
be in extended and get a late assignment; he pitched Short Season in 07
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 12:39 AM CST
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Low A is going to
be in Hickory next year? Right? So I guess we don’t want Beltre repeating the MWL. :)
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 12:44 AM CST
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Grades
Glad to see Feliz get the A, also glad to see Smoak/Andrus get the A-. After I saw the first 3 I got greedy and was hoping Holland got an A- as well but I guess B+ is pretty good. As some said above Beavan was too low and Moscoso was too high though I don’t really know much about the guy. I’m not big on Hurley at all but I gotta think KoK is the only one that would have dealt Hurley straight up for Moscoso about a month ago.
Bushe- you win with Smoak getting the A-, at one of these Newberg events we’ll get that drink taken care of.
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 1:41 AM CST
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what sold me on moscoso
was that he was the best pitcher in the minors (in basebll?) at swing and misses
what was that stat you posted zy?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 8:57 AM CST
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T_Ball
Missing bats
I’m really intrigued by Moscoso on that front. Only 15 pitchers in the minors had a higher K/9 than him last year, and none of them (save one guy in the DSL) had a better K/BB ratio. I want to see this guy in Frisco just to watch the Ks pile up.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________….
by t ball on Dec 8, 2008 12:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 9:18 AM CST
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I luv this frickin list,
The top ten could be arguable on where they are ranked, but does it matter? I don’t think so. We are stacked with great players and the first wave of them started last year. This years crop of players could be just as good. Mosco or whatever his name is doesn’t excite me, but at least we got a descent prospect back for Laird.
Luv the three A grades. Elvis is great and can garner that grade. I thought Holland and Feliz were on the same level but I knew Sickels would do that seeing how Hollands only had last year to really become a dominant pitcher. Next year that grade should be an A if he is still a prospect.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on
Dec 19, 2008 4:33 AM CST
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Felix #2 pitching prospect behind Price?
drool
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Dec 19, 2008 7:48 AM CST
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Fastball
does Feliz have the best one in baseball? Ive come to the conclusion that his is the best in the minors, but what about the majors? Where would it rank RIGHT NOW in the majors?
I still remember going to see his first start at Frisco, looking up to see “01” on the gun and just shaking my head.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 19, 2008 11:13 AM CST
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Joel Z
I’d imagine Joel Z (when/if healthy) has the best fastball in baseball. I know stadium guns boost mph, but he was hitting 104 with movement.
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 12:21 PM CST
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Well
I was then thinking there are many closers who may have a better FB, such as Papelbon sits mid 90’s with great control, but I don’t think thats fair to Feliz to compare him to a guy only pitching for 1 inning. I’ve never seen Feliz pitch in person, just various videos, so I don’t have any firsthand gun readings from him, but from reports I’ve heard the 100+’s but I’ve also heard him working in the low 90’s at times. That being said, when Feliz gets to the bigs, assuming its as a starter, I expect him to sit 92-95, with the ability to throw well into the upper 90’s, but thats because pretty much no starter in baseball actually sits 95-98. MC maybe you or others can comment on this, we all know he can hit 100+, but what does he actually sit at? How low does his FB get?
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 12:29 PM CST
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I saw
him pitch 3 times. He topped out at 101, low in the zone. His FB had too good movement on it. It certainly was not high that often. He was working 94-98 most of the time. It seemed like each game he had that one errratic inning where his FB got away from him.
The most impressive thing about his FB is that he doesnt look like he is throwing hard. He was warming up in between innings and the gun had him at 82-84 then the first pitch of the inning, BOOM, 98. Same motion. He had the best fastball id ever seen in person and i saw beckett, colt griffin (should have been an OF), and scott kazmir in HS. I know that is lofty praise but it is the truth.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 19, 2008 1:53 PM CST
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Feliz
If he comes to the bigs and sits 94-98 with good command of it, and with the good reported movement, then yes, he has the best fastball of any starter in baseball. IOW, if you believe your own eyes then he has the best. Also, I was thinking about it today and Feliz should get a very high grade/ranking. Ya he doesn’t have command of three good offerings right now but he could have a rare top notch pitch. Think Santana change, Zito curve, K-Rod slider, etc. It may never get there but I can’t think of any other pitcher in the minors with a legit chance of having one. Price doesn’t have one, the only guy I can think of that might have a claim is Cahill.
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 2:59 PM CST
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100 mph fastballs
I’ve seen Bonderman hit 100 a couple times.
The Zumaya note is interesting- if Feliz winds up in the pen, I could see him being that kind of pitcher. Hopefully without the injury issues, of course…
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on
Dec 19, 2008 6:44 PM CST
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Many starters
have hit triple digits in their starts (Verlander hit 101 in the 9th during his no hitter), but almost none actually sits 94-98.
by groundingout on
Dec 20, 2008 12:44 AM CST
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Yeah
and I wouldnt even say that is the best part of his FB. It was has good life to if. I mean it is not a hard sinking a la Kevin Brown but it just has that little something that seems in the last 20 ft that seems to miss bats. My old pitching coach used to qualify stuff like that as just baseball good. He just imparts so much spin on the ball with his long fingers. Yes, he is not polished but he seems to have such a natural feel for pitching. I cant wait to see Holland pitch as i have no doubt that the worst case for Feliz is an elite closer. And last time I checked a dominant closer has a great deal of value.
I posit that he could be an average to good short man in the majors right now.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 20, 2008 9:39 AM CST
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No one does.
Only six guys had avg FBV’s of over 94 and none of them had 95 or above.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 21, 2008 10:50 PM CST
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Really? Bonderman?
Hmmm… His avg FBV is usually around 92 or 93.
Was it one of those pumped up Fox guns from the playoffs?
That’d be my guess.
Bonderman throws hard, but 100mph is special and I don’t think he has it in him.
Could be wrong, of course.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Dec 21, 2008 10:49 PM CST
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Projected assignments?
Where do these 24 land next spring?
I remember recent speculation on this, if you have a link it would be much appreciated.
by Houston27 on
Dec 19, 2008 8:36 AM CST
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I have projected the 09 minor lg rosters
and have a top 90/top dsl prospect list here (I’ll updated them this weekend):
http://minormoosings.blogspot.com/
(in arcane Excel form)
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 9:25 AM CST
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Good job
I think Hurley will make the Ml rotation with Feldman to the pen. Put Holland in AAA and Hyatt starting in Frisco. Just my 2 cents. I have you bookmarked.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 1:35 PM CST
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Yeah
I could live without Nippert on the staff and if that happens it means Hurley will have had a great spring. I think if the Rangers feel Holland is ready they will start him to AAA. However, he only had 4 starts there and I’m not sure he is ready. I think they start him there and promote him quickly but the AAA option is just as likely. The other factor is that they might sign a Veteran to add to the AAA staff. You could also easily knock Mendoza out of the rotation to the bullpen too to make room for Holland.
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 1:51 PM CST
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I get the feeling
from you and others, that if Holland and Feliz were to perform similarly, Holland would be promoted first. Why is that?
Is Holland viewed as the more complete pitcher? Is it because he is older?
by Houston27 on
Dec 19, 2008 3:19 PM CST
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Yes
Holland is ahead of Feliz. I believe Holland was a draft and follow JuCo pitcher. His ancillary pitching skills such as holding runners and fielding are ahead of Feliz. IMO, at this point Holland is about 6-9 months ahead of Feliz and he should reach the MLs late this year.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on
Dec 19, 2008 3:28 PM CST
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His change
is already above average; BA had it ranked #1 in the system but that might be a tad high (see Poveda). His slider improved a lot this season after a change in his arm slot that the Rangers’ staff encouraged during the spring. So couple those things with his control and incr in velo (not to mention his work ethic, intelligence and mound presence) and he is closer. He was also a draft and follow guy so he brought with him more competitive exper than feliz.
by Goyogringo on
Dec 19, 2008 4:26 PM CST
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Just awesome...
3 A’s is crazy from Sickels. I did think there should be a couple more B- guys and was surprised that Kiker was still that high. Beavan and Hurley are the guys that stood out for me that were a little low imo.
It’s a very exciting time to be a Rangers fan. The next few years are going to be great with all these kids starting to come up this year and in ’10. This system is just loaded.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on
Dec 19, 2008 10:15 AM CST
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Teagarden, Main
John’s comment on Teagarden is exactly what my one sentence synopsis would be. I think he’s right on target there. And though Fitt did mention Main’s good intstructs performance in passing, I think Sickels’ comment on him makes it clear that he’s been reading some of the good stuff Hindman, Parks, Cole, Newberg and Lucas have written.
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 19, 2008 10:27 AM CST
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If Main performs
like say Parks and Joey M. think he will during the regular season, where do you see him slotting at? I would have said above Andrus before today however Sickels is very bullish on Andrus. That was the biggest surprise to me.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 19, 2008 11:10 AM CST
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Well
there is at least a decent chance that Holland will have exhausted his prospect status at some point during the season, so that would clear out one spot if we’re talking later in the season. But if Main shows what observers saw in FIL, when, say, the BA midseason update comes out, I’d fully expect him to be in contention for that updated top 25 that they do. He would have the advantage of a more complete game than several of the other potential candidates. Unless you project Feliz or Smoak dipping, I’d say that would probably put him at three (and 3/4 if Holland is in the picture), probably a little ahead of Andrus, assuming Andrus continues the sort of improvement curve has has at the last two levels. Perez will probably be handled carefully early in the season, so I doubt that he will be able to make a big splash by midseason, at least in terms of numbers/performance. Same would definitely go for Font, who may be in extended until June. Beltre is really the only other guy who seems to have this sort of breakout potential, at least that quickly.
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 19, 2008 11:22 AM CST
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Holland
I doubt he exhausts his prospect status next year. 50 innings would mean most likely 8-10 starts at a minimum which would mean he would probably have to be up by the trade deadline. If that happens then either we have been hit hard with injuries or we have sucked so bad we are completely out of any race whatsoever.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Dec 19, 2008 1:13 PM CST
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I hope you are right
There are going to be so many exciting pitching prospects going through Frisco this year.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 19, 2008 2:00 PM CST
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With gas being cheaper
I’m gonna drive from Denton to see some games, especially Feliz.
by groundingout on
Dec 19, 2008 3:00 PM CST
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Ill be
there as well. Driving in from dallas a lot.
by Michael Cave on
Dec 19, 2008 9:09 PM CST
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Yay! Paul Thomas has awoken.
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on
Dec 19, 2008 1:33 PM CST
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Our excessive homerism
awoke him. It’s actually kind of embarrassing that some from this blog are over there defending against any comment even slightly less than raving about the Rangers system or its prospects.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on
Dec 19, 2008 4:18 PM CST
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Ya I know,
But he just really annoys me.
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on
Dec 19, 2008 4:24 PM CST
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+1
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 19, 2008 6:41 PM CST
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+2
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on
Dec 19, 2008 11:36 PM CST
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x
It’s actually kind of embarrassing that some from this blog are over there defending against any comment even slightly less than raving about the Rangers system or its prospects.
Yep
by Adam J. Morris on
Dec 19, 2008 10:00 PM CST
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who's doing that?
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
by Longhorn on
Dec 19, 2008 11:24 PM CST
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To be fair
some dumb things have been said and some other comments were misunderstood.
by groundingout on
Dec 20, 2008 12:46 AM CST
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so question
does anyone think that iona * really * signed with the a’s because they are so much better at developing pitchers?
id think if he wanted to go with that angle he would follow in the footsteps of the last VERY highly thought of pitcher from LA and sign with the mariners…who was the last LA pitcher to star for the a’s? lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on
Dec 20, 2008 10:12 AM CST
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Just think
…about all of the lies and misperceptions football recruits buy into from coaches. And just imagine adding the fact that these kids are in a different country and speak a different language – and are even two years younger. And in a lot of the cases they’re quite poor and would have no means to investigate things themselves. They are pretty much subject to whoever can convince them they’re their buddy and who can sell them a story, I’d think. And usually, they’re probably subject to whoever can win over the crook with connections to a kid’s family.
So yeah, I can believe that he was convinced something like that, but only because someone controlled information, etc.
by Brett Perryman on
Dec 20, 2008 5:51 PM CST
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Draft
I think this is why all international kids will go into the draft within the forseeable future, probably a couple CBAs from now. If you take advantage of people and situations enough these days, someone gets caught as maybe legally correct but unethical.
by Andy Seiler on
Dec 20, 2008 5:55 PM CST
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