Baseball 101 -- An Ode to Coach Gus
Lately I've been reading a lot about all of the minor league prospects that
the Rangers have been accumulating in their system. It's great fun imagining
how many wins we can amass in the coming decade if a few youthful pitchers can
blossom into dominant starters, abetted by a few hitters and fielders. No need
to mention any names here. However, there is something that has been bothering
me quite a bit. It's this secret that I've been holding. Well, secret isn't the
right word, because I've been trying to let it go, but nobody will listen.
Previously, I've been in the throes of this battle with fans, coaches, and even
one retired major league veteran, and often they won't let me even begin to make
my opening argument before they start a salvo against me.
Every baseball scout, whether professional or amateur, has their own methods of
evaluating the talent held by unripened players. They often talk about the
5 tools: Hit for average, hit for power, run, throw, and defend. Some say
there are 6 or even 7 tools. Others break down skills even further. Trying to
decide how many tools and skills a young baseball player exhibits is largely inequitable. For example, a first baseman really doesn't need a good throwing arm. He won't use it all that often. In the same vein, a catcher doesn't need to run all
that fast, since he isn't required to chase down fly balls or steal bases
with any regularity. What I am mainly concerned about though, is which one of those tools or skills makes the most difference in winning and losing a ball game(s). My answer is probably different than what most talent evaluators would say.
Let me tell you where I stand early on so you can plan your rebuttal as I go. I pride myself in being a critical thinker, and it is expected that the reader should analyze every idea that I will put forth. It's not so easy to lay out though. It will take some
effort on your part to digest and play with some of the thoughts that will be presented. Certainly, an open mind can be quite helpful when trying to persuade someone to change their belief set. We're not talking religion here, but I know from firsthand experience that this discussion can become fairly emotional.
I believe that good plate discipline is the most important tool that a baseball player can possibly possess. There, I let it out and I feel much better. So that I can convince you to be on my side, I'll use a bit of recent brain research. Scientists have determined that you will learn some things better if you use multiple brain pathways. To use an analogy, if you can see an object from all sides, you'll understand it much better. The same holds true for ideas. Here we go.
For me, it began with my father. He coached several different sports teams when I
was young. Mainly football and basketball because I didn't play much baseball, so his coaching of baseball was limited to church teams. My dad was an extremely competitive man. He did not like to lose. I know what you're thinking, lots of people say that, but you don't know my dad! Ask anyone in my family about him and you're likely to get a few stories of just how outrageous he could be when trying to win. Sports, card games, dominoes, board games, he spared no expense in trying to win. So what does this have to do with the 5 tools? Well, when he told stories of coaching baseball it always involved walks. Furthermore, the story always ended with his team being victorious. For him, walks equaled victory. Now I know that is overly simplistic, and I wouldn't expect to convince anyone with this paragraph alone, but it did implant a type of baseball strategy into my head. Young kids are
impressionable and I was no exception. I am also keenly aware that this type
of evidence consists of an anecdote. Anecdotal evidence is weak, very weak. So
let's use another pathway.
The eureka moment for me in baseball came in 1980, two years out of high school,
at The University of Texas in Austin. The baseball team there had several players
that would go on to enjoy major league success. You've probably heard of Roger
Clemens. Do you remember Calvin Schiraldi or Spike Owen? They all played on that team. It wasn't the players that captured my fascination in the end though, it was the coach. His name is Cliff Gustafson. Coach Gus for short. Suffice it to say,
that I worshipped him. His teams were different than all the other baseball
teams that I had seen before in my life, because all his players had good
plate discipline. Most fans didn't recognize that though. After all, how many
people count pitches from the stands? After watching a full season of games,
I began to notice that several things were happening, events that turned each
contest into a seemingly one-sided affair, each ending with a victory song, and
Hook 'em Horns raised high. I'll discuss the specific things that were happening
later, but I will give you this bit of info to chew on. No college baseball coach
has ever had the run of success as Coach Gus. His all-time winning percentage at Texas is 79.5%. You know, good baseball teams win around 60% of their games. Great teams perhaps 70% of the time. Coach Gus won 4 of every 5 over the span of his career. Wow. Maybe my dad was onto something. Maybe walks really do equal victory. Additionally, in honor of Coach Gus, I feel compelled to say this, a 79.5% winning percentage is not anecdotal evidence. When you win consistently, that goes
beyond luck, it is evidence that something is happening to cause that team
to win. One could justify the wins in different ways of course, better recruits,
home-field advantage, better assistant coaches, and so forth. However, over
time, I came to understand the value of plate discipline from Gus. I will always
be appreciative of that.
Multiple pathway number three. Let's get to the nuts and bolts of the discussion.
The exact ways that plate discipline can aide a team. I'll enumerate them so that
they will be undisguised.
1. More walks - This is obvious. A batsman can't draw a base on balls if he
puts one of the first four pitches in play. Patience by a batter increases his walk
rate. Walks are one of the more preeminent reasons that a team gains an
advantage from being patient at the plate. If some of you have played the
game of baseball before, then you've heard a coach say something like this,
"Walks are a killer!". Pitchers are generally given more of the credit for
the walk, not the batter. This is odd because Bill James did some research
on this, and he found that walks are caused more by the batter than the pitcher.
Here's what I think he meant by this. A patient hitter is more likely
to draw a walk off of a pitcher with good control, as opposed to a freeswinging
hitter receiving a base on balls off of a pitcher who is known to be a bit wild.
So give more of the credit to the batter. Quit screaming obscenities at the
pitcher when he walks someone, recognize the batsman for a job well done.
This is not to say that pitchers don't have different walk rates. They do.
2. More pitches thrown by the opposing team - This actually is beneficial via
several different ways. A (possibly dominant) starting pitcher must leave the game
sooner if he has thrown too many pitches, and in a multiple game series, a
manager will have difficulty getting a lefty pitcher vs. lefty batter situation
to emerge if his bullpen is depleted. You may also get the chance to avoid
facing a club's top reliever more than once in a series if you force him to
pitch more innings than he usually does during the opening game of the
matchup. By the way, I hope you're keeping a mental tally of the positive
effects. I've listed three of the beneficial outcomes resulting from plate
discipline here in number 2 alone.
When people talk about the greatest baseball player who has ever lived, the conversation usually turns to either Babe Ruth or Ted Williams. Some statistical
analysts say that Ruth had better numbers, but you also must take into
account that Ted's career was interrupted twice because of WWII. My contention
that the reason these two players are considered to be the very best is because each had the two most important tools of baseball, and practiced them to the utmost degree. Those two tools are plate discipline and power.
The greatest single season ever by a major leaguer was most likely in the modern
era. Barry Bonds hit 73 homers in 2001. He also gathered up 177 bases on balls that year to complement his arsenal. He was on base over 51% of the time. Barry also holds the top 3 spots on the list of most walks in a season; 177, 198, and 232. Ruth, Williams and Bonds hold 8 of the top 10 spots on that list. In conclusion, great
players obtain walks at the highest rates. Said another way, you can't have
a monster season unless you have excellent plate discipline. From another
direction, Babe Ruth utilized three tools. He had power, plate discipline,
and a good arm since he was a former pitcher. Williams had hitting for average,
power and plate discipline. In 2001, since Barry was getting relatively old
for a baseball player, he essentially only had two tools. Power and plate
discipline. Really now, what good are the 5 tools, if possessing 2 or 3
can make you the greatest player ever? For that matter, can steroids alone
make you the greatest player that has ever lived? I must apologize for that
last sentence. My keyboard temporarily turned into a ouija board. That was
totally beyond my control, I promise.
3. More chances for stolen bases - Batters like to get comfortable with their
lead off of 1st base before they try to steal 2nd. They study the pitcher's
move to the plate too. They get extremely confident when they know that
beating the pickoff throw back to the bag is easily accomplished. More pitches
equals more stolen bases. I won't venture a guess as to whether or not the
stolen base percentage gets higher if the runner attempts to steal the base
after 6 or 7 pitches to the batter, instead of after 1 or 2, but some game analysts
have mentioned that catchers call for more fastballs when a fast runner is on
the 1st base bag. They do this since they think it will increase their odds
of throwing out the base stealer. Additionally they suggest that more fastballs
from the pitcher is an advantage to the batter. To finalize this paragraph, let's
state one obvious fact; a runner absolutely cannot steal a base if the batter
puts the very first pitch into play. And don't forget this, the chances of a double-play
ball will go down after a batter steals a base. Every little bit helps.
4. More wild pitches - These have a relatively minor effect on most games, but
if you've seen enough baseball games, then you'll be able to recall when one
of these mishaps has been the factor that changed one team's outcome from
a loss to a win. Perhaps once or twice a year or so if you're lucky, but a win is
a win after all.
5. More passed balls - Relatively minor again like the previous one. Maybe once
or twice over the course of a full season, but those victories are not any
less sweet.
Gerald Laird was traded this year for a couple of low level, minor league
pitchers. How can an experienced, young, starting catcher, said to have all 5
tools, with a modest contract, have such a puny trade value? The answer is surely
plate discipline. What else could it be? While some people would say that
the main objective for a hitter is to get a hit, sabrematricians have opined
that the basic goal for the batter should be simply to not make an out.
If you're not making a bunch of outs in your times at bat, then it follows that
you are getting your share of walks. Gerald was making too many outs. His power
numbers aren't that bad for a catcher, but I always felt that he was never
destined for big homerun numbers, because he doesn't have an uppercut
stroke. So he is missing the two most important tools, power and patience. Just
to be fair, an astute observer would mention that his contact rate is low. Mercy,
I think I've convinced myself that he is nowhere near a 5 tool player, even without
plate discipline. On the bright side, both Teagarden and Salty will most
likely be above average in skills relating to patience. Come to think of it,
Maximiliano also!
6. More balks - There are two different positive effects that are nearly
inconsequential. One would be the balks, the other is more pickoff throws
are attempted by the man on the mound when more runners reach first base.
I don't think each of these cases deserves to listed on their own merit,
but to be perfectly frank, I have seen games decided by both of them.
7. More errors - This one can always generate a few heated exchanges between
combatants, but it is an established effect. Nolan Ryan is a good example
here. Nolan threw lots of balls because his control was a little on the
wild side. Nolan threw lots of strikes because batters missed
his pitches quite often. So, overall he had a high number of pitches per
inning. Unfortunately, the fielders who played behind him had to suffer
through some long half innings. Common sense will tell you that their
concentration wandered a bit more than the norm. More errors. You can look
it up. While you're at it, look up his winning percentage. 52.6% is not that
great considering that he holds so many major league records. Walks caused
him a great deal of trouble, in more ways than one. Just to be mean,
I'll venture a guess that Robin Ventura wished he could have added one
more walk against Nolan.
8. A higher batting average - Ted Williams promoted this theory loud and proud.
The Splendid Splinter practiced what he preached too. He was, after all, the
last man to hit .400+ for an entire season. It boils down to this idea: It's
easier to hit a pitch that is down the middle of the plate. Patient hitters
are rewarded with a better selection of pitches to hit because they see more
of them. They discard the bad ones and mash the good ones. On a personal
note, let me tell you about one of the grandest moments that I have ever
experienced. A decade or so ago, I got the chance to travel to Cooperstown,
New York to visit The National Baseball Hall of Fame. The most prominent
2nd floor exhibit was a display of different colored baseballs, stacked
11 high and 7 wide. These closely packed 77 balls represented the hitting
zone for a typical batter. On each ball was a number. Smaller numbers
towards the rim and higher numbers towards the center. The number in the
exact center was .400. I knew instantly where this display originated from.
It came from Ted Williams book "The Science of Hitting". It was Ted's way
of saying that if you had exceptional talent and had excellent pitch
recognition skills, then maybe you could hit .400 too. Of course, I've
had many people argue against this point, but how many times have you heard
major league pitchers say that all they were trying to accomplish was to
make the batter hit their pitch? Or look at it another way, haven't you
noticed that most strikeouts occur when a batter swings at a pitch outside
the strike zone? The farther away from the heart of the strike zone, the
harder that pitch is to hit. It's even possible to observe this phenomenon
during batting practice.
9. Increased power - This idea works closely in tandem with number 8. Hitters
do have a power zone. They can put more muscle into swinging at pitches that
are centered over the middle of the dish. Conversely, you lose miles per hour
in bat speed when you have to reach for a pitch. There's another effect going
on here also. If a pitch is outside your power zone, then
you will not be likely to hit the ball on the wooden bat node. So it's
a double whammy if you don't practice good plate discipline, less mph and
fewer sweet spot hits. Announcers have a tendency to make this statement
after a batter hits a homerun, "That was a mistake pitch", or they'll say,
"It caught too much of the plate". I tend to cringe a bit when they mention
one of those phrases or something similar. Don't they realize that pitching
to major league hitters isn't easy? There is no such thing as a pitcher
with perfect control. We all make mistakes. However, that is an excellent
reason to be a patient hitter. Wait around for the mistake pitch. You'll
hit for a higher average and you'll drive more balls up the gap.
There are two general things that can be said to happen when a team exhibits
good plate discipline, more baserunners and more runner advancement, each
using a variety of different scenarios. All of which will lead to more runs
scored and more wins. If you're still not convinced of the fiendishness of it
all, then you probably still don't see the value of numbers 8 and 9 above.
Don't run away if I haven't converted you, I'm not giving up the ship yet.
10. Quicker release point recognition - I have heard several times that a
batter has only one-tenth of a second to decide if he is going to swing
at a pitch, once it leaves pitcher's hand. It stands to reason that a batter
can knock off perhaps a few thousandths of a second, on pitch recognition,
if he can observe a pitcher's release point multiple times. Some batters
will come back to the dugout and tell their teammates where to look for
that release point. It may be behind the ear, off the shoulder, over the
bill of the cap, or even a landmark in centerfield. I think you would agree
that every little bit helps when you have to react so fast.
11. Better recognition of a pitched ball's path - Pitchers are clever. They
can make a ball do just about anything. Move up, move down, move left,
move right, come in fast, come in slow, or move all over the place like
a knuckleball. Major league hitters, being the best in the world at what
they do, are just as proficient though. They have good enough reactions
to counter nearly anything a pitcher serves up to them. Especially so
when they get the chance to see the complete repertoire of the pitcher
before they actually have to hit the ball. Ranger fans should think of
Kameron Loe, of course. His sinker had a huge sinking action, but his
breaking ball was pedestrian. We all know that Kam was an effective
pitcher going through an opposing team's lineup for the first time. Then,
after the hitters were able to make the adjustment on the two-seamer,
he wasn't so potent. He always wanted to start, but his destiny was
in the bullpen for obvious reasons. Good luck in Japan Kam. You're a
classy guy.
How can Billy Beane, the general manager of the Oakland Athletics, field a
competitive team almost every year on a low budget? If you read "Moneyball",
I think you already know the answer. Billy believed that plate discipline
skills were underrated by most general managers, and even succumbed to
paying an extra bonus check to his minor league players who walked at a rate
over 10%, in an effort to obtain more value from them. Unfortunately for
Oakland though, this past year the Rangers surpassed the A's walk rate, and
we finished with a better record. That hasn't happened in quite some time.
12. More hit by pitches - Nearly forgot this one. This entry and number 3
are the only ones that could result in a negative outcome. More stolen base
chances may lead to more instances of getting thrown out stealing. Getting
hit by a 90+ mph heater can result in an injury. Still, overall, I believe taking
one for the team is generally helpful.
13. Pitchers are required to throw more from the stretch position -- A pitcher
must work out of the stretch position most of the time if a runner is on base.
This has a negative effect on some hurlers, but not all. It can sap a little
power out of their pitching motion when they don't lift the lead leg up as
high, so that they can cut down the time it takes to get the ball to the plate.
Some pitchers even get in too big of a hurry to get the ball home, so that
the runner won't have time to steal, and lose a bit of control in the process.
I'm sure you have heard some TV analysts say that the pitcher
was paying too much attention to the baserunner, instead of putting their
focus on more important things.
One could make the argument that the Yankees are the one team, more than any
other in any professional sport, who deserve the word dynasty attached to their
legacy. I believe one of the major reasons why, deals with their organizational
philosophy towards walks. They have historically valued players with patience
more than other teams. It is certainly not the only reason that they have
accumulated so many world titles, but you can't ignore it either. Lately, the
Boston Red Sox have learned to value players with high on-base totals too. They
have even hired the sabrematrician, Bill James as a consultant. Perhaps this is
why they have recently broke their long world series drought with a couple of
world championships. On the flip side of that creed, I can't ever remember when
the Rangers valued that type of player, except for Billy Martin's time in
Arlington. We only finished 5 games back of the mighty World Champion A's in
1974, even though we were a young franchise, mainly due to players like Mike
Hargrove and Toby Harrah, both of whom showed outstanding strike zone
judgement. Perhaps I should add Ron Washington's name to that list of Rangers
who value patience. I remember him saying that one of his wishes last year was
to add a leadoff hitter like Ricky Henderson to the lineup. Some people viewed
that as put down to Ian Kinsler. Not me. I believe during his time in Oakland,
Washington came to put faith in Billy Beane and the plate discipline skills
of the A's players. Any team could use a player like Ricky Henderson. I might
rank him as the third greatest player ever behind Ruth and Williams. One more
thing, if Ron Washington is not responsible for increasing the number of walks
by Ranger batsmen, then who deserves the majority of the credit?
14. Players who exhibit good plate discipline have longer careers and
are more valuable to their team (or have better trade value) than other players -
OK, like Chris Davis said, "I got nothing". I'll admit that I don't have proof
of this one. I simply like to start arguments just for fun sometimes.
If you've stayed with me this long, I hope that I have furnished you with a
few tools to see a baseball game differently now. Oops, did I say tools?
That is where this argument started, with 5, 6, or 7 tools. Which do you
believe. At the very least, you must admit that counting things like baseball
skills is an inexact science at best. Let me demonstrate that point with
a tale you've heard at least a hundred times. How many senses does a human
being possess? Five, right? Taste, touch, hearing, sight and smell. Well, even
though you've heard that many times, it's wrong, dead wrong. You need to add
pressure, temperature, pain, balance and motion to the list. That adds up to ten.
So don't believe everything you hear. .
Finally, my argument doesn't rest on any one of points listed above. It's the sum.
The totality of it all. It's the synergy of the system that's beautiful.
That's why Coach Gus was able to win about 80% of his games. If I still haven't
convinced you of the importance of good strike zone judgement, then it will
probably never happen. Even if I haven't changed your outlook, I do think you
can envision a few reasons why some prospects are viewed as being more
valuable than others if they have a good K/BB rate. While a player like
Engel Beltre or Cristian Santana may make an appearance in the major leagues at
some point, I don't think they will be doing as many of the things that
win ballgames as a Marcus Lemon or Johnny Whittleman type of player. Some
scouts have mentioned that a player can alter his plate discipline
skills for the better if given enough time. That may be true, but hitters
rarely make a radical change in their strike zone judgement abilities.
Pitchers, similar to hitters, don't often change their K/BB rates much either,
unless it's a natural occurrence of facing a higher level of competition,
caused by jumping up a level or two of the minor league system.
I love ya Gus and,
Merry Christmas to All
http://www.texassports.com/genrel/gustafson_cliff00.html
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Well
No worries about that 75 word minimum.
by brettgardner on Dec 25, 2008 4:02 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I rec'd because
I saw the name “Coach Gus” and knew that a Denton boy is his pitching coach…Skip Johnson…..So I immediately rec’d….without reading….sorry to the masses if this ain’t kosher.
Freddie King rules faces.
by Cecilio's Guante on Dec 25, 2008 10:59 PM CST reply actions
Seriously
I did read the post….good shit……agree…..
Freddie King rules faces.
by Cecilio's Guante on Dec 26, 2008 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
this fanpost
is well worth the read imo…i read through it completely and thoroughly enjoyed it
by dustinvandeman on Dec 25, 2008 11:58 PM CST reply actions
his thesis is that
plate discipline is the most valuable fundamental skill for a baseball player to have. He enumerates all the different ways that having it positively impact’s a team’s performance, interspersed with little anecdotes and supporting commentary. All in all, good post.
Never rule out Jim Bowden.
That guy is effing crazy.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 26, 2008 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
But you suck if you have too much plate discipline! Like Salty!
/bigsteve
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
Not gonna deny thats my feeling
And I don’t think he sucks. Me personally I would rather see a guy who is supposedly a great offensive potential catcher swing the bat and do more damage with the bat than simply walking to first base. Hes not gonna steal 2nd so his damage potential is limited to him at the plate. My personal feeling is some guys need to have patience and good OBP and some guys can get by without it. If my #4 hitter only has a .320 OBP but is hitting .290 with 40+ HRs thats fine by me. Because most likely hes not a speedster who can terrorize the basepaths hes a masher. Salty is supposedly a guy who could end up in a prominent power position in the lineup and to me OBP is at the bottom of the list of important qualities from my power hitters.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
The fallacy in your thinking is evident to me.
What you’re saying is that if Chris Davis hits .290 with 40 homers, then that would be a good year at the plate. In other words, you’re accepting a player who is somewhere between good and real good. However, in order to win a pennant or a division title you need some players to be excellent to great. With better plate discipline Davis could turn those good numbers into even better numbers. One could use this argument for any player actually.
Better yet, here is a real life example using Josh Hamilton. When spring training started last year Josh went on a tear. I wasn’t there to witness it, but I do remember the players talking about several of his skills. One of those skills was plate discipline. The players were saying that he only swung at strikes. Major leaguers know how difficult (impossible really) that can be. His average was above .500 for most of spring training as best I can recall. Later his plate discipline skills subsided a bit and his avg fell down to the .450 range as the spring ended. The very same trend happened during the regular season. Hamilton’s plate discipline waned as the season wore on and his stats were steadily going down from month to month. Bradley even mentioned to Josh, at one point, that he needed to work on his patience at the plate. Hamilton admitted that he didn’t really buy into the approach Milton was using. What a damn shame. Hamilton could put up numbers similar to what Barry Bonds was putting up early in this decade if only he would follow Bradley’s advice. Can I prove it? No, but I can tell you to look up the video from the spring training games. For a few short weeks, Hamilton was looking an awful lot like Barry Bonds from 2001. I’m not raggin on Josh. It’s just that I would wish every player to fulfill his potential.
"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer
I don't care about spring training stats
Who cares how someone does in spring training. Hamilton was also facing AAAA guys and guys who ended up sacking groceries during the 2008 season.
Some guys job is to get on base and set the table and some guys job is to clear the table and drive those guys in. If you are a table setter then yes work the count try and get on base. Most likely a table setter is a guy who also is somewhat of a threat on the basepaths and can turn that walk into basically a double by stealing a base.
If you are a table clearer then you standing on first base with a walk does absolutely no good most of the time. Unless the bases are loaded a walk does not drive in a run. What it does is force another player to get the job done.
Now there are always exceptions to everything. For instance if you are Hamilton leading off an inning then a walk will do some good. But if you are down a run late in the game with a guy on 2nd a walk does nothing except force the guy behind Hamilton to now come through.
If Chris Davis hits .290 with 40 bombs that will be a tremendous season and anyone who complains would only be showing how insane they are.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
So its a big Lemon love-fest post?
Well then, I’m sold. I’ll be back in half an hour when I’m done reading it!
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
tldr
Nolan Ryan is the Greatest Pitcher ever, because Google says so.
"BTW I’m officially welching ab03. Yeah I planned too all along, but I figured I’d try to get off the hook with double or nothing first."- Sharky
Hey ChubNuts...
your schtick is already old after 2 posts.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Walks? Walks? We don't need no stinkin walks...?
What’s up with this sissy walk theory? Ask any of the young Dominican players. They will tell you “You can’t walk off the island.” Alex Rodriugez doesn’t get paid $25 mill to walk. Remeber the Smoltz/Glavin/Maddux commercial? “Chicks dig the long ball!” Baseball players are called batters or hitters when they are at the plate. I have never heard them called walkers. Don’t be like Jason Botts – watchin three strikes go by and leavin the bat on your shoulder! Swing for the fences or get to the park like the rest of us – buy a ticket!
way to bring it on your first post
don’t be scared!!
Freddie King rules faces.
by Cecilio's Guante on Dec 27, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions
Um,
I think a few other folks also value plate discipline, you’re not really breaking new ground here.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I guess
if Lemon and Whittleman are both in Frisco in 09 then the Roughriders should win alot of games. I think the pitching staff will help alot too.
Newsflash: Whittleman sucks.
"A ~.650 OPS from a COF should get you deported, not traded for."
- The Huntressatron
by inactive lsb user on Dec 28, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
+1
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
+2
Your 2010 Texas Rangers starting shortstop....(see pic)
by Kinslerhomer on Dec 28, 2008 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying...I'm just saying...
Do you really want your best HITTERS to sit at the plate and pretend that a better pitch is going to come along? I mean pitchers in the bigs are pretty good, last time I checked. You can’t suggest that a hitter should wait and see IF a pitcher makes a mistake, IF there is a passed ball, IF there is a pitching error, IF any of your (so called) reasons happen. Batters get paid to hit the ball, PERIOD!
Are you really being serious?
Part of me thinks you must be in jest, because nobody is really this stupid. Are they?
I mean this is pretty much common baseball sense: plate discipline is always good, because it works the pitcher, allows the hitter to gauge what he’s throwing and forces the pitcher to put the ball in the strike zone where he’s more apt to make a mistake. You can’t just go up there and hack against a big league pitcher, because the pitcher will quickly learn all he has to do is get you to chase out of the zone.
Nobody’s suggesting that hitters should just go up there and watch pitches in the middle of the plate go by, but 99.9% of the time there is no way telling hitters to be less disciplined is a good thing. About the only exception is when you have an umpire who’s calling a ridiculously liberal strike zone.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
I agree with him to an extent
Its a case by case basis. Take Kinsler for example last year. There were alot of times where he would swing early in the count and it would irritate me and alot of you guys. Thats valid because of his place in the lineup. Hes the leadoff guy. Leadoff guys are supposed to work the count and get on base. Granted Kinsler had a good BA so he was still able to get on base at a good clip but he should have been working the count a little more simply due to his batting position. Now flip that around and look at Hamilton for instance. No offense but I would rather watch him strike out than walk. thats just my personal opinion. because to walk you don’t swing. if you don’t swing you can’t possibly do damage with your bat. Hamiltons bat is far greater a threat than his feet. Im not advocating going up and being a freeswinger and chasing stuff thats obviously a ball but Also don’t go up and watch good pitch after good pitch for the simple sake of “working the count”.
Like I say with Salty. The guy has been promoted as a guy with supreme offensive ability. A Victor Martinez type catcher. His biggest threat to an opposing team is not his speed on the basepaths. Its his bat. So when he walks up to the plate and on the first pitch as soon as the pitcher starts his windup Salty stands straight up and rests the bat on his shoulder and never even thinks about swinging at it it really pisses me off. because 80% of the time that pitcher throws a fastball literally right down the middle of the plate. Right in that power zone that is talked about above. Id rather see him swing and fly out than stand and watch it. because if he swings enough at that pitch then eventually hes gonna plant it in the seats for a home run or a double to the gap.
The OP points to wearing out the opposing teams starter and relievers as reasons to be patient. Well you know what if you go out and score 5 runs in the first couple innings thats not gonna really matter now is it? That startsre will be out of there early no matter how many pitches he throws. Plus if you do start jumping on pitches early in counts then you can switch and start laying off while the pitcher is trying to get you to chase. Its not just being patient its jumping on pitches available to hit and not chasing the ones you can’t
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
On the Kinsler thing
He was a beast on the first pitch of a PA. A lot of people in the GDT would be bitching about that each time Kinsler swung on a first pitch, but the reality is that he took advantage of it just about as many times as it didn’t work.
The best thing for a hitter to do is work the count and swing at pitches he can hit. It doesn’t matter if you hit in the 3 or 4 spot or if you are leading off.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
tball has a point but
if
you’re not really breaking new ground here.
is true, then why haven’t the Rangers ever really practiced the idea before Wash came along. Or the Royals last year. Or the Mariners. Or Rudy Jaramillo. The point is that most people don’t get it. Perhaps most people on this blog get it. Perhaps most sabrematricians get it. But most people don’t get it. Start your own poll of family and friends and you’ll likely see what I’m talking about. Ask them to list the benefits of plate discipline. Do you really think they’ll be able to list 15 or more? I could have listed more benefits, but they were a bit more controversial in nature. Can you list anymore?
"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer
The Rangers
have had guys who had good plate discipline many times in the past. Most people do get it, at least recently, but that doesn’t mean you immediately jettison your entire roster. It’s like the Rangers apparent valuation of defense recently. It will take years for that to show up in a big way on the major league roster.
You don’t think signing Bradley last year was a move for plate discipline? Do you think Showalter didn’t like plate discipline? Different people have different priorities, but I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find any old baseball guy who doesn’t think plate discipline is important.
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Did you read the fanpost?
Why is it that no college coach has approached Coach Gus’ level of win percentage. Simple, because nobody else gets it.
I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find any old baseball guy who doesn’t think plate discipline is important
Surely you jest here!
Showalter? Really? Where is your evidence that he put any time, effort or money spent on a player with good plate discipline?
"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer
The Rays went from being the worst defensive team in baseball to the best in one off-season.
It's a crazy messed-up world... It's a doggy-dogg world...
by oc on Dec 29, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
And that
is pretty damn unusual and no one expected it. The situation in TX is a bit more complicated, too, with FOTF locked in somewhere and a rash of injuries here and there, and the subs stinking up the joint defensively. Pitchers also caused a lot of their own problems fielding last season.
There is a potential for massive improvement defensively over the next year or two if Borbon slides Hamilton over to RF, the OF looks pretty good. If Young slides over to 3B for Andrus, than that improves over the next couple of years. And it keeps Davis at 1B where he’s much better with the glove.
And to his point about OBP, it’s hardly as if the Rangers have never had good plate discipline before. And once they made it a priority — apparently one of the things they liked about Washington — it did improve in about a year. My point above about this diary was that statisticians have been telling us for many years that OBP is valuable, and I was told nearly 30 years ago in Little League that a walk is as good as a hit. I’m certainly not poo-pooing the smarts of his hero Coach Gus or his dad.
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The problem was the hitters
in the past just weren’t that good. Its also not really what Rudy does. No matter how good Rudy is, he can’t make Nix or Diaz be a more disciplined hitter. He will work with them to make sure they don’t have holes in their swings or anything like that, but he’s not really telling hitters to swing at every pitch nor watch every pitch go by them. n the end, it just comes down to the hitters. The ones that don’t have good plate discipline end up not being in the league very long. Unless they’re really fast. And then some team always goes after them because they’re idiots.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
And to answer more of your detailed points
Yes, you’re right, a lot of casual fans (and far, far too many in the media) don’t get how valuable a 12-pitch at bat can be. I think these things come and go in waves, and right now, some in the game have already moved beyond plate discipline as the new Moneyballish underrated skill to defense. Speed also seems to be coming back into fashion somewhat.
As far as coach Gus’s incredible record, I think at that level a manager/coach can have a far greater impact than in pro ball. He obviously knows how to get and coach good talent, and get his team prepared to play. When the talent level is uneven this means a lot more than at the major league level. I was told at 8 years old that a walk is as good as a hit, so I guess my Little League coaches knew at least something about plate discipline. In my case, they may have figured it was better to bank on the pitcher’s lack of control than on my hitting skill…
Washington gets shit on a lot here, but his odd lineup choices and bullpen usage probably don’t amount to a whole lot of damage when you get right down to it. His people skills and philosophical leadership in areas like defense and plate discipline have the potential for a nice payoff in the long term. Having said that, I hope he’s learning from his lineup and bullpen snafus.
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Great piece
I’m another guy who thinks Coach Gus hung the moon. Thanks for a very astute and enjoyable piece.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you're a mile away AND you have their shoes.
I smell a rat here
Gdawg1 says:
The best thing for a hitter to do is work the count and swing at pitches he can hit. It doesn’t matter if you hit in the 3 or 4 spot or if you are leading off.
Bigsteve says:
Its a case by case basis.
Sounds to me like somebody is wrong.
"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer
A hitter with power and no speed should swing more often than
those with speed and no power. The latter should resist temptations early in the count and try their best to draw a walk.
by coolrangersfan on Dec 30, 2008 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
Not necessarily
Some people have different philosophys about how a team should run. If we weren’t such an offensive force then I would say that yes most all hitters should try and work the count and get that “perfect pitch to hit”. But for the most part our hitters are good enough that even if they don’t have that perfect pitch they can do damage with it. The reason Barry Bonds 73 home run season was so great wasn’t because he worked the count. It was because almost half the time he got a hit it went out of the park. 68.5% of his hits were for extra bases. Thats why his season was so great.
In general I don’t want to see my leadoff man swing at the first pitch just like I don’t want to see my cleanup hitter stand there and religiously take the first pitch and watch meatball after meatball go down the middle because he has to watch it for some reason.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
It just doesn't matter IMO
Whether you are the leadoff guy or the clean-up hitter, you always should try to work counts and swing at the pitches you can hit. If you get the pitch to hit, there is no reason to be shy about it and ignore it just because its a 0-0 count. How many hits does Kinsler lose if he doesn’t swing unless the count is 2-1 (or whatever). And the same goes for the middle of the lineup hitters. I don’t want Hamilton swinging at a pitch he can’t hit well just because he should. Even if that pitch is in the strike zone, many times its better to just take that strike than ground out or pop up. Where you hit in the lineup shouldn’t change how you hit.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Yes it should
The guys in the heart of the order generally get less good pitches to hit than other guys. If you let those pitches go by then you fall behind and either start chasing bad pitches or you get walked. Most pitchers in a full count won’t give the guy a pitch to hit unless they absolutely have to because they realize a walk doesn’t score a run. Guys in other spots of the lineup (ie bottom or leadoff) generally get more good pitches to hit because the pitchers either think less of them as hitters or realize they have to get them out so that the power guys can’t drive them in. Also how you hit the ball comes into play. If you are a speedster like Borbon who can put the ball on the ground and still get a basehit then you can afford to wait until later in the count. Or if you are a guy who doesn’t slug a high percentage (which means most your hits are singles anyway) then a walk is just the same as a single.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

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