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Tigers, Rangers close on Laird?

The Detroit Free Press has an item up suggesting that Gerald Laird could be moved before the winter meetings start on Monday:

The Tigers have become "more aggressive" this week in trade talks concerning Texas catcher Gerald Laird, one industry official with knowledge of the negotiations indicated Thursday and Friday.

That is significant, since it seemed possible Friday that the Rangers could reach an agreement on Laird before the winter meetings open Monday in Las Vegas.

The Tiger system isn't real strong, but they (along with the Reds) appear to be the most aggressive suitors for Laird, and I guess the Rangers could be interested in some high-upside guys Detroit has.  Wilkin Ramirez, for example, is a power hitting COF prospect, and the Rangers have a dearth of guys like that in the system.

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what does anyone know about this Moscoso guy...
Moscoso struck out 122 in 86 2/3 innings this season between Class A Lakeland and Double-A Erie.

Seems pretty impressive.

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on Dec 6, 2008 12:23 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He's also 25 years old

I can’t get too excited about guys in their mid-20s lighting up A-ball hitters.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That is what I thought

but he seemed to hit another very high gear in A+ and AA. If he lights up AA in the first half, he could be in AAA the second and in Arlington in Sept (taking the optimistic route) even if it might only be as a RP. I say wait for Cincy and forget about all the Detroit spares…

If we had to go with Detroit due to the market, I would take a high ceiling guy over any of the others. Brandon Hamilton was a 1s in 07; anyone like this kid?

by Goyogringo on Dec 6, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not much of a Hamilton fan

And while he has the distinction of being a 1s pick, he was #60. so he went through the equivalent of two passes through all of the teams before being picked.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He lit up AA hitters too

and his advanced age is affected greatly by injury problems. It’s not like he’s taken seven years of development to get to this point.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I will say

I’m pretty disappointed with his winter ball performance against AA-AAA type competition.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds good to me

seeing their “more aggressive” hopefully Cincy will step it up….

I’m sure it’s been mentioned here somewhere, but what does Cincy have (besides Bailey) that we could get?

Freddie King rules faces.

by Ryin A on Dec 6, 2008 12:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

*they're

Freddie King rules faces.

by Ryin A on Dec 6, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

jarod burton is the guy i want

for some reason i keep thinking were going to be very dissapointed by the return for laird

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 2:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Zach Miner

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 12:39 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

No.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what they'll get.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope to hell not.

I’d rather take the handful of magic beans approach and just snag a couple of projectable youngsters of their rookie and low-A squads than settle for that piece of waiver wire garbage.

Miner does nothing for me.

We have a slew of our own Zach Miners already, and I say we go with the Zach Miners we already know as opposed to trading for somebody else’s.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what I find funny... the fact that many people here are already mailing in the season, and this is supposedly a make-or-break season for Daniels.

Trading for more prospect depth doesn’t do him any good if the product at the big-league level doesn’t change…

Not that I’m saying Miner solves that problem.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why wouldn't we mail in the season?

How is our roster any different from last year?

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Dec 6, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duh.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

healthy pitchers

would make this team SO much better than it was last season. All the Rangers really need is an average rotation to go along with the best offense in the league. Just 5 pitchers who could average 15 wins on the season.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

" All the Rangers really need is an average rotation to go along with the best offense in the league"

Easier said….

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Dec 6, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Average pitchers are inconsistent.

A team can’t put together a winning streak if its pitching is inconsistent.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The best offense in the league....

isn’t going to be be quite as good without Bradley smack dab in the middle of it…. and I guess I mean a happy Bradley. “Arbitration accepting Bradley” won’t feel as loved as a “they showed me some love with a contract Bradley.”

Not saying the should sign him, even if I think they should, but I wouldn’t get carried away with how strong the offense might be without his type in the middle of the lineup.

Can’t count on the offense to make up for a weak rotation and bullpen.

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Dec 6, 2008 3:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That offense

was without Blalock almost the entire year. Blalock stepping in as the DH isn’t exactly zero sum. The loss of Bradley won’t be nearly as devastating considering Hank will be back and not playing in the field. Then a full season of Davis coupled with the impact of an emerging Cruz and an everyday 3rd baseman (no matter who it is) will improve this offense even without the oft. injured Bradley.

I realize Blalock gets hurt just like Bradley, but at least Blalock doesn’t pull muscles running to first. Blalock got hurt during play in the field. If he’s at DH, his risk of injury should be diminished compared to Bradley who always made you hold your breath when he ran to first.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would say that the offense will probably be a wash

losing Bradley hurts a lot, losing Vazquez’s great season hurts, but then look at what we gain:
-full season of Kinlser
-full season of Murphy
-full season of Cruz
-full season of Davis
-no Broussard black hole for the first month

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 6, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well

kinsler and murphy’s injuries were late in the season and is what ultimately killed the Rangers chances along with Bradley and Blalock’s injuries. But if we could get Blalock to replace Bradley, that alone makes the offenses even. But when you add a full season of Davis and now Cruz should make the offense better this season. Also, we don’t know what to expect from Metcalf if he’s the guy at 3B.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cruz is going to be automatic, eh?

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he was last season... even after the call up.

you sure aren’t high on many Rangers players. sure you’re a Rangers fan?

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dear God I hope we don't get a full season of David Effing Murphy.

And what’s to guarantee we get a full season of Kinzler?

He has 3 full big league seasons under his belt and he’s played 120, 130, and 121 games.

The idea that we’re suddenly gonna get ~160 out of him confuses me.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you're right

let’s trade him and davis for Lincecum. It’s not like he’s a great player. He could easily be replaced by Vallejo or Lemon. lol

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What the hell are you babbling about, Glamour Shot?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 5:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vallejo & Lemon

You see what happens when you look at the stats beyond the AAA roster (Vallejo and Lemon) and make reasonable assumptions about their progress? You just prove to everybody how big of a nerd you are, and nobody likes nerds. Nerd!!

by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 6, 2008 7:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was

being sarcastic jackass

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 7:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

While getting a new glamour shot, I hope.

Cause one is never enough, especially if it’s black-and-white.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wow...

somebody rush me to the burn unit!!

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 9:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why, do they have a Glamour Shots there?

I thought Glamour Shots only operated in malls, but you’re the expert.

To the burn unit for a glamour shot!

Don’t forget to frost your tips!

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

here

changed it just for you sweetheart ; )

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 9:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

That was my favorite pic ever!

Bring it back!

Please!

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nope

i didn’t like the idea of you jerkin off to my pic anyway.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 9:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No jerking. Just laughing. I promise.

Although one time I did laugh so hard I thought I came. But I checked and it was just a little pee.

God I love glamour shots.

They are awesome.

But in all seriousness, you should put it back up.

It. Is.
Epic.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 9:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like this one better

FUCK YOU

just about sums it up. ; )

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hah! Fair enough.

Though I really do have an irrational love of glamour shots. I roll in there everytime I’m at the mall to look at the samples. They’re beyond awesome. And it’s the best people watching. Glamour Shot people are better than Wal-Mart at 3 AM people. I swear to Science.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

mine wasn't a glamour shot.

It was a head shot that i had to take for my college newspaper by a pro photog. I’m 26. I’m not taking glamour shots a mall.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 9:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

glamour shots

lol

Ok, is this something new I might be interested in?

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 10:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha

that got me cracking up laughing.

loves me some Z.

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 10:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hey, Z

I like the Andrus and Feliz in the dugout pic. good one

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 10:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

id do that in a second

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 10:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe not a sec

but damn that would be something to think about

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 10:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Until he starts having

injuries that can affect him in the future, I don’t really consider them to be that bad. Dislocated thumbs, sports hernias, and foot stress fractures just aren’t the same as guys who have hamstring strains or sprained ankle problems.

And David Effing Murphy had a 106 OPS+ last year including a 113 OPS+ against righties, as a rookie. A full season of that is good for just about every team in the Majors.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 6, 2008 5:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re: Kinsler

That’s true. I just look at a guy who can’t seem to stay healthy in any of his first three seasons and I see no reason to suspect he’s a good bet to play a full season next year.

Though you’re right none of his injuries are things that you’d usually think would carry over season after season… hopefully, at least.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 5:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well there is always TOS

If he gets that next season, he’s just cursed and won’t ever play a full season.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 6, 2008 6:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

JD Drew

Doesn’t Drew suffer from a variety of injuries rather than one or two reoccurring ones?

by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 6, 2008 6:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Drew

I don’t think his injuries have really been reoccurring ones, but they have been ones that are more likely to come back in the future. Hamstring, knees, back pains, etc. He’s also generally just been slouching and probably could have played through some mild pain, but chose not to.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 6, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not mailing in the season at all.

If the best offer for Laird in terms of value is a couple of young projectable guys, then I’d rather do that than say, “Oh, we need help at the big league level right now so let’s make sure we get a guy who can play for the big league team next year no matter what!”

If we don’t make any moves impacting the big league team in a positive way, then that sucks.

But if we don’t get immediate big league help from a Laird trade I have no problem with that as long as we get good value.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He’s not young, the more likely trading partners don’t have star quality minor leaguers they can afford to move, and the primary objective in dealing Gerald at all is to clear the deck and sort out Ranger catching.

A 26 year-old Miner is about the best you can get right now.

That or a 24 year-old ‘meh’ Double-A position player.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe.

Or you could try to grab who profiles like Edwin Encarnacion did when Cincy stole him from us as a throw-in in the Bell/Mateo deal. Maybe an Engel Beltre-light type. A win-now team like Detroit might be willing to trade a big dreams 17 year old with some serious promise and ceiling for two years of Laird.

I don’t even want Zach Miner, period.

Maybe I need to take a closer look at his stats, but this is a guy who I’d have to think about signing off the waiver wire, let alone trade two years of a starting catcher for.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand...

how people can find what you are advocating to be a bad idea. It seems to me that all the talk about the dearth of quality catchers means that the Rangers are going to add some serious talent. This could happen if you trade Salty or TT, but not Laird. I don’t get how people can bash Laird as being a waste of a roster spot, and then think he will land Bailey.

by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 6, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well said.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying it's a bad idea... I just don't believe the Tigers, who have little to cling on to in the minors in the first place, would think Laird would be worth giving up the forementioned "17 year-old with serious promise and ceiling"...

A change at the catching spot for Detroit isn’t going to put them in the running… especially when it’s a platoon player.

Just like the Rangers, their rotation and bullpen are their most glaring weaknesses.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe not

I think the Tigers feel like they’re still close and a contender. Their offense seriously underperformed early in the year and that’s still a very formidable lineup. Laird is not going to cost them much and won’t hurt them in the lineup.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But pitching.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

say it with me

jarod burton

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OMG

What is your deal with this Jarod Burton guy? Seriously… You’ve posted this trade proposal like 30 times in a week. lol

by hiafex on Dec 6, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

because i think hes a lot better than anything were gonna get from det and he might actually be possible as someone we could get

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 10:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

jarod burton

ok, you got me curious.

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 11:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

basically

1 yr to arb
pretty good stats
not much of a split (his pitch f/x data looks kind of like mo riveras, basically very unique)
bullpen arm
potentially cincy would move him (unlike bailey)

and hes better than anything were gonnag et from DET

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 7, 2008 12:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

I shall keep an eye on Burton

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 12:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yuck

Give me something with at least a little promise or else there’s no point.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Two questions:
  • what do you want for platoon catcher Laird
  • what do you expect the Tigers to give us for platoon catcher Laird

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 7:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Generally speaking I want someone with more upside and downside than Minor. I don’t see the point of trading Laird for someone like him, and though I certainly don’t think they are going to hit the jackpot, you can get a nice prospect for a good platoon caliber catcher. I think that Minor is a textbook 5+ ERA guy here.

If you want specific names, I’ll have to give it a little more thought, but a couple of these Moscoso guys do more for me than Minor because there is at least a possibility that they can play some sort of positive role on the staff.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just a

minor mistake.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 8:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see the point of trading Laird

Period. NO NO NO. Period NO!

Trade Salty.

Laird is more valuable to this team and the starting rotation

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 9:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Go poke

a cow.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol.

I do deal with cows everyday. I tend to cattle. It’s not an easy job.

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 9:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

laird got a real strong record with the starting rotation?

Laird 2007: 4.78
Salty 2007: 4.73

Laird 2008: 5.21
Salty 2008: 5.16

(ERA of pitchers with each catching)
not the most meaningful stat in the world, but I dont think the difference is as big as it may seem. laird is no gold glover.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Dec 6, 2008 9:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don;t think anybody is talking gold glove here

we’re a talking what’s the best catcher that will help this team win more games in 2009. And I think that those catchers are Gerald Laird and Taylor Teagarden.

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what's up HH?

Drinking tonight?

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Dec 6, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"Somewhere out there, between 14-32 BBWAA NL MVP voters are trying to get cheaper winter heating by drilling a hole in the microwave." - Jeff at LoL

by lonestarJon on Dec 6, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

-2

We’re taliking about should Laird be moved before the winter meetings that will be starting on Monday

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+2

to make up for the -2 HH gave you

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 7, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

-1

guess what … 1-22-1 =

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 12:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oops that was wrong

what I was saying is

you take lonestarjon’s +1

me -2

gdawg +2

and then my -1

Thats guess what 1 – 2 + 2 – 1 =

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 12:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

guess what this is

1 – 2 + 2 – 1 =

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 1:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know this one

Its the signs of drunken stupidity.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 7, 2008 1:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon.. it's not that difficult

do your math

1 – 2 + 2 – 1 =

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 1:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

gdawg

like I said it was easy

it’s 0

1 – 2 + 2 – 1 = 0

by cowpoke on Dec 7, 2008 1:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Anything of value is fine with me.

Look how Max turned out.

I had a paper route when I was a kid. I was supposed to go to 2,000 houses. Or two dumpsters.

by TheBZA on Dec 6, 2008 12:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ramirez is intriguing

power and speed. What’s the book on his defense?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 12:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sucks

With a capital “S”.

Limited to LF, and not good there.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Poop.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 1:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of poop

This BB/SO ratio: 43/138 scares the poop out of me for a no defense 22 year old in AA.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was really hoping

for defense along with the speed and power. No glove, no go with that lack of plate discipline.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 6:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he just started playing the of in 07

 he will never be more than average but has plus speed and power. Having said that, please, no more Left fielders for god sake. We have plenty in the system.

by Goyogringo on Dec 6, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree

There are not enough good corner OF guys, especially those with high power ceilings. I’m uncomfortable with a Ramirez-Laird deal straight up, but I’m intrigued by a guy like that.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What's missing in the system pipeline are RF

Anyone from Moreland to tracy to bolden to fry to c. murphy to T. smith to Butler to Beltre could end up there. I would say that Bianucci and possibly Moreland (and maybe ben harrison for those who care) are the only true RF in the system. C. Murphy might not have the arm. I would keep laird if all we had was a LF in the offing…

And I know you prize speed and athleticism in LF, but if his defense only profiles as average at best, then your optimism must lie solely in his bat, which is no sure thing.

by Goyogringo on Dec 6, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right

he’s a chancy guy, but for Laird I can’t see getting more of a sure thing, especially from Detroit.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Laird will get some goodies

I have no doubt that trading Laird will land us something really good

by cowpoke on Dec 6, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if we trade him to det

we will not get anything good, becauase they have nothing good to give

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 10:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Our RF of the future?

…A guy named Josh Hamilton.

Book it!

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Dec 6, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Careful out there on that limb.

:)

"Please. What the hell do you know about starting a sports-related website and then deciding to leave it to work on other things and then? How dare you, sir." -- Michael Schur, aka FireJoeMorgan's Ken Tremendous, to Will Leitch

by ghtd36 on Dec 6, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

That would work. Of course, he’d have to beat out Nellie Cruz ………….

:-P

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Dec 6, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nelson and his .900 ops can handle LF.

He’s not as slow as some seem to think, and that cannon can play anywhere. Cruz/Borbon/Hamilton (from L-R) seems like a pretty kickass OF to me.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well

if you need an athlete out in LF, wouldn’t you be ok with Hamilton in left and Cruz in right assuming we have Borbon or Beltre to step in at Center?

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Casey Crosby

Completely unreasonable for Laird?

Where would he rank on our prospect list?

Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.

by tricer on Dec 6, 2008 12:53 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's completely unreasonable.

Just not likely.

Assuming he returns to full health and the reports of him throwing 95-97 during Instructs is true, I dunno, top 12? top 13?

by LiamP on Dec 6, 2008 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure where he'd rank now but

he’d have the potential to be top five a year from now.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Think: Neil Ramirez.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 7, 2008 6:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if people are going to be that excited

with Laird’s return. I’d rather keep Laird and Tea, and trade Maxy Poo and Salty.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Dec 6, 2008 1:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be

If Teagarden shows more promise as a long-term solution, the Rangers are going to choose to develop him this season. If Laird gets sent to the bench, we already know he’s gonna throw a fit and not help the younger guy develop. I’d rather keep Ramirez if we only get to keep one other than Teagarden. Ramirez might be suitable for a DH at some point in the future and could be moved there once Pina or one of the other minor league catchers develops a little more.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if you're willing to trade Max and Salty this offseason

you better be getting a HELL of a lot of talent back

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 6, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

anything else

we could offer to bring back Bonderman? they have obviously a horrible minor league system. Couldn’t we give them some players like Lemon, Arias, Duran, Poveda or Hunter or a combo of coupled with Laird to bring back Bonderman?

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 1:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Because we don't have enough oft-injured starters?

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Expensive ones at that.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Deep breath

I think whomever Laird brings back will cause some disappointment and criticism. He’s not young, the more likely trading partners don’t have star quality minor leaguers they can afford to move, and the primary objective in dealing Gerald at all is to clear the deck and sort out Ranger catching. And even that is not a “must do”, which I suppose Boston, Detroit, Cincinnati, and Florida know. I just don’t think a landmark deal is possible.

The OF’er Adam mentions could be flipped, I suppose, to put some bat into another transaction, but that’s a compound “if” scenario. The real deal is maturation, polishing, and promotion of the pitchers in the system, coupled with getting the 2009 starters off to the best health and condition they can report in. Landing one more MLB ready starter probably won’t happen in the impending catcher deals.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Dec 6, 2008 1:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

doubt it

Remember that he just came off the DL then. His value would have been great if he didn’t get hurt.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 6, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

meet me at the mawwl... it's goin dowwn...

by oc on Dec 6, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

doubtful...

combine Laird’s DL stint with the fact that the teams looking into Laird at the time were more interested in their team’s playoff runs and probably looking for more offense in the short term, not an above average defender and decent offensive platoon catcher for the future…

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 6, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And he still will.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and I'm fine with that...

can we look for an A arm or possibly AA arm that has a # 2 or # 3 ceiling and go after that, along with a bullpen arm, for Laird and change?

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 6, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So something like a Beavan + Madrigal or Benoit package?

That seems a bit high for Laird.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

very optimistic, unrealistic even. That kind of return would warrant a round of free drinks on Daniels.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

looking at it your way

seems VERY unrealistic. I wouldn’t say a current ML reliever on their team, but another Hamburger type. but yeah I guess that is my idea…I tried looking at the Tigers’ system, and found a few intriguing stat lines, but I’m definitely no expert on our system, much less theirs. obviously, we would have to throw something else in to make that work.

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 6, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, an A or AA arm with #2 or #3 ceiling is gonna cost a bundle just by himself.

Those guys cost.

But a minor league bullpen arm is a different story, you’re right.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder how other teams like the Tigers and Reds

view Laird. On the same level we do? Probably not. They probably value him more than we, as fans, do…with exception to AJM and HurlerHurley types. But how much really do they covet Laird? Does their management see him as a pretty valuable commodity? Do their fans clamor for a Bailey-for-Laird trade?

The same could be asked of Salty, Max and TT.

We seem to be down on Salty, but think he should be valuable to a Boston…we seem to be high on Max but not so much as an ML-ready catch yet, and we have a pretty high price tag on him as far as trades go…we seem to be infatuated from the top of our organization to the educated fan base down to the “once in a while take a peak to see how my alma mater’s national champion Longhorn catcher is doing” casual fans with TT, and attach the highest of price tags to him, as well as the notion that he should be our lead catcher starting in 2009 and going as long as he can stay healthy.

I need some perspective here!!!

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 6, 2008 4:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

realistic returns

obviously i can’t stake this to anything, but my idea of a realistic return would be:

from the reds: major league ready RH relief pitcher Josh Roenicke and high upside, strong defense, no walks 3B prospect Juan Francisco

and from the Tigers: old for his level but big time arm RHP Guillermo Moscoso and surprisingly effective sidearmer Rudy Darrow

In both cases, we are getting a major league ready bullpen guy and a high upside prospect who has some flaws but who could have major projection if certain kinks can be worked out.

by clark on Dec 6, 2008 4:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Clearing the deck

has some value for me.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Reds are offering Bailey

the Rangers should pull the trigger. He has the stuff to become a dominant pitcher. He could be once of those pitchers every year that come out of nowhere to become dominant in the form of Cliff Lee, Justin Ducshsherer, Edinson Volquez or Ryan Dempster.

He just hasn’t clicked yet and could be one of those pitchers who could be picked up on the cheap.

by texaschief on Dec 6, 2008 1:43 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I doubt

Cincy would do that, but I agree with you

by groundingout on Dec 6, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm?

Those guys came out of nowhere?

by brettgardner on Dec 6, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We all would want Bailey for Laird...

if you were cincy would you do that though?

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Dec 6, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

jarod burton!

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 2:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just the only problem with Bailey

Is if he’s willing to get his career back on track. Is he willing to change all the problems that have been focus on him (uncoachable, lazy, very cocky).

I’m sure the Reds are willing to give him up, but are the Rangers willing to take that headcase on

In Smoak We Trust

by Smoak Some on Dec 6, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Detroit thinks

the pitcher in JD’s Soriano deal worked out just fine.

Don't believe the hype about sloppy seconds. They ain't bad.

by tricer on Dec 6, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this year yes

we shall see how good he is next year

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

"If I go to this "party", I will give "save us" a piece of my knuckle sandwich…" -- miles

by knockoutking on Dec 6, 2008 2:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was going through one of my old posts

 back when the Soriano deal was made, and believe me, some of the folks posting on this thread thought it was a great trade back then. In fact, they went as far as saying that Wilkerson was better than Soriano straight up.

I won’t link it, but believe me, I read it last night and it kind of made me chuckle.

Not many folks were bitching about the Soriano trade, believe me. (I was..lol)

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Dec 6, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wilkerson never got fully healthy again, it would seem.

Or anyway he never got back into form.

Cause for a year or two he was an underrated beast.

That was the player we all thought we were getting. Not the useless bag of strikeouts we ended up with. Yuck.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

There are two kinds of men in this world: Men who make jump throws, and men who wish that they were Derek Jeter so that they could make jump throws.

by thedirkatron on Dec 6, 2008 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, at the time ...

we traded a player who’d delivered OPS+’s of 100 and 109, who had a poor OBP and played wretched defense for a player who, in the same two years put up 119 and 103 (in an injury plagued season), played good outfield difference (which was a position of need), and got on base at .374 and .351 clips. At the time, Wilkerson was a better player. Obviously, had it been clear to anyone that he would fall off the table while in Texas, the trade doesn’t get made.

As a guy who can look into the future and see those things before they happen, you could probably make huge sums of money betting on sporting events. You should probably get started immediately.

by Athos on Dec 6, 2008 6:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dammit.

Obviously, “difference” in the third line should have been “defense”. Stupid typos.

by Athos on Dec 6, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

best answer i have seen for that complaint in a while....

I think i am going to catalog that answer for the next time I need that…

by laxtonto on Dec 7, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, perhaps I should...

…link some of my previous posts regarding player trades/evaluation.

Why would I want to get into a debate on whether I can or cannot see into the future, if I already know what you are going to say? 8-P

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Dec 7, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone know anything about Danny Worth?

A SS prospect in the Tigers organization who was 22 last year and spent most of the year in AA. Does he have a strong enough arm to be converted to a 3rd baseman?

by hiafex on Dec 6, 2008 1:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i have heard

he is a very strong defensive player, but his bat is a limitation, and that was back in a profile before the draft. his stats appear to show that, although apparently he has battled injuries as well. he could be a solid buy low guy, but the Tigers need middle infielders, so they may value him higher than most.

by clark on Dec 6, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

MLBR & Tigers

From MLBTR:

According to Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Pirates are eyeing Tigers players Jeff Larish and Matt Joyce as part of a potential Jack Wilson deal. They could get one of the two as well as a pitching prospect.

Is anybody here familiar with the Tigers’ system? If the Pirates deal Wilson before the Rangers deal Laird, would the players mentioned limit the return that Daniels could get?

by Excel Hearts Choi on Dec 6, 2008 1:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I can't imagine...

…that the Rangers would have any interest in Larish. Joyce is interesting, but I don’t know that he’d be a fit in a Laird deal.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Whether or not you like Laird, guys like that would a really weird return, all things considered.

by Brett Perryman on Dec 6, 2008 6:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see

the Tigers making a deal for Wilson. I think they want a catcher more and will deal with SS after acquiring one.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Dec 6, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Found this odd little nugget on Larish from BA's Det top 10...
Background: Larish is a polarizing player among scouts. He has made steady progress through the system, hitting 67 homers in his three full minor league seasons, and acquitted himself well in his big league debut.

Strengths: Larish’s greatest asset is raw power to the pull field. Though there’s virtually no load with his hands, he can crush fastballs over the inner half of the plate. He’s not a threat to steal but has decent speed and good awareness on the bases. He’s already an average defender at first base and he could become a plus defender in time.

Weaknesses: Larish tends to wait for a perfect pitch to hit, which can work against him. He finds himself in a lot of 0-2 counts, and better pitchers were able to exploit his passivity. His detractors don’t like his unorthodox batting stance, in which he turns his head to face the pitcher and keeps his hands still prior to the pitch. He has yet to show that he can hit quality strikes over the outside corner, and he struggles with breaking pitches.

The Future: With Miguel Cabrera entrenched as their long-term first baseman, the Tigers had Larish play third base (which he played as a freshman at Arizona State) in the Arizona Fall League. His rust showed, but his work ethic gives him the chance to become decent at the spot. Barring an injury or trade, Larish likely will start 2009 in Triple-A.

As far as Matt Joyce… COF….

here is his BA from 2007

Background: Joyce helped West Michigan win the Midwest League title in 2006, then skipped a level and helped Erie make the Eastern League playoffs. He was pulling off the ball early in the season and batted .193 during the first two months. But then he settled back into his overachieving ways, started allowing the ball to travel deeper into the zone and batted .293 with 13 homers over the final three months of the season.

Strengths: Joyce has a smooth lefthanded stroke and a knack for driving in runs. He generally hits gap to gap but possesses some home-run power and has the potential to top last year’s career high of 17. A well above-average right fielder, he gets great jumps and has a strong, accurate arm. He can play an adequate center field if needed.

Weaknesses: Like many of the Tigers’ top position prospects, Joyce needs to cut down his strikeouts. He chases low changeups from righthanders. He doesn’t use his average speed as well on the bases as he does in the outfield.

The Future: Joyce has moved swiftly since signing in 2005, and he’ll move up to Triple-A this season. If all goes well, he’ll challenge for a big league job in 2009.

by laxtonto on Dec 6, 2008 1:59 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

OK.... Here is all the stuff i could find about Larish, Joyce, etc from the BA chat forthe Det top10

: Kyle from Middletown asks:
How do you like Casey Crosby’s chances of having a breakout season? Do you think he has the ceiling of a #2 starter?
 A:

Jon Paul Morosi: I think Crosby is a terrific prospect. The Tigers are going to take his development slowly, for a variety of reasons — he hasn’t pitched much, he’s young, and he’s had TJ. But he has the highest ceiling of any starter in the system not named Rick Porcello. His fastball averages 94 mph from the left side. That pretty much says it all. He’ll probably pitch at West Michigan or Lakeland in ‘09. Since he’s from the Chicago area, he would probably embrace the notion of pitching on 40-degree days in April.

Q: Ace from Detroit, MI asks:
Who will be the better hitter long term- Matt Joyce or Jeff Larish…could one be traded for pitching help this year?
 A:

Jon Paul Morosi: Tough question. Joyce has too much service time to be considered for the Top 10 list this year, so I didn’t have to wrestle with that — until now! I’ll say this: I think Larish will be the more “productive” hitter in the long term. “Productive,” in this case, is code for “RBIs.” Larish has a knack for driving in runs, and that’s the primary obligation of a corner infielder/outfielder. As for Part II: Yes, I believe one (perhaps both) could be traded for pitching help this off-season. The Tigers do not want to trade them, of course, but they do have a surplus of talent at each of their positions. They could deal them without causing a major disruption to their 2009 plans. In one of my recent Free Press columns, I mentioned the possibility that the Tigers could move one or both of them to Seattle in a trade for J.J. Putz. I think that type of deal would make a lot of sense for both clubs.

by laxtonto on Dec 6, 2008 2:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Why can’t we just do what makes sense? The Red Sox have said they won’t trade Clay, so lets look for something that makes as much sense. Don’t trade any of our catchers for Masterson unless it’s Laird plus someone like Lemon. We know the Tigers are in pursuit of Laird, but if we can change the deal to somehow get Porcello, that would only enhance our HIGH end pitching prospects. Granted he wouldn’t come cheap. A package of Teagarden, Arias, Beaven, Hunter, and Harrison would have to go the other just for Porcello. As unlikely as that deal is to happen, it’s always interesting to think about. Now what makes sense is Teagarden, Harrison, and Duron to SF for Matt Cain. Why not?

by Big Pappa on Dec 6, 2008 10:00 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

And as for the last part...

…San Fran just drafted Buster Posey, so they aren’t in the market for a catcher.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 6, 2008 11:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm curious on what it would take to get Porcello

Which catcher do we trade and who do we add to the deal to make it happen (not that I have that much interest in Porcello).

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 7, 2008 12:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Porcello?

*Hangs up the phone. *

This is an exciting time in my life.

The LSB CPP's are in full bloom.

by Chase Irwin on Dec 7, 2008 12:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Dec 7, 2008 9:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What would it take to get Masterson from Boston?

by Big Pappa on Dec 7, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure...

the BoSox seem to be higher on Masterson now than they should be. To even consider having him higher than Buchholz is crazy talk if you ask me. I’ve seen some in the press close to the BoSox say he’s off limits right now, not really sure why.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Dec 7, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Laird is gone even before the winter meeting starts,

who do you think is the most likely to go next?

1. Another catcher
2. Blalock
3. Millwood or Padilla
4. Catalanotto
5. An outfielder
6. Somebody else

"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer

by rodcarew on Dec 7, 2008 10:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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