Query for the Hurleyites

by mjh on Mar 17, 2008 8:17 AM CDT Comment 41 comments

Are those of you who think Hurley should break camp in the Rangers rotation of that opinion because of what he's done this spring, or last year in OKC? Or is there another reason that I don't get?

And if your other reason is that he's better than Sidney Ponson, my next question is "so what?"

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Folks want to see them

because they like new shiny things, whether or not they are ready.

"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 17, 2008 8:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It's as simple as that. I'm probably guilty of that too. For my personal entertainment, would I want to see Sidney Ponson or Eric Hurley in April? Hurley, but at the same time I realize it's not his time yet. All I have to do is remember Dominguez and Volquez.

by slimshadty12 on Mar 17, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He has certainly

pitched better than Mendoza, Gabbard and Ponson. If that were the sole criteria for selecting the 4th and 5th starters than he should be in the rotation. However, there is more to it than that. Hurley does need more time in AAA (strike one). He is not on the 40 man roster (strike two). His arbitration clock has not started (strike three). He will pitch in Arlington this year. Probably sometime in June.

"This has been a team effort. No one or two guys could have done all this." - Casey Stengel, after the Mets lost 120 games in 1962

by RangerMad on Mar 17, 2008 8:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's why:

We want to see Hurley pitch, and Arlington is closer than OK City.

Seriously... The Rangers are staring down the barrel of a last place finish and the fans would like something to get excited about, besides Josh H.

this is the year the Rangers fall below 3 mill in attendance and the complete failure of Ranger Mgt comes into full bloom.

Im gonna duck and cover from the Rangerbot reply's...

by red shoe ranger on Mar 17, 2008 8:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Rangers have never

drawn more then 3 million fans in any season. And the last time they had less then 2 miilion in attendance (strikes/lockouts years excluded) was in 1988. 2 million attendance is almost a given.

"This has been a team effort. No one or two guys could have done all this." - Casey Stengel, after the Mets lost 120 games in 1962

by RangerMad on Mar 17, 2008 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

woops

I meant 2 mil.

I would love a count of butts in the seats versus tickets sold.

by red shoe ranger on Mar 17, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hurley

note: i am just fine with having hurley go to AAA for a 2-4 months depending on how he handles it.

but...

you dont understand why fans that have heard hurley hyped for years would rather see him than Sindey Ponson or Luis Mendoza? Really?

And while opening day would be rushing him, its not like hes 20 years old out of A ball or something. Hes 22 and at lest held his own at AAA. Plenty of top prospects debut at that age. Some get it immediately, others dont. But the same goes for 25 year olds...

but again..i do think he should go to AAA for a couple months.

by DSheppard on Mar 17, 2008 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Better question

For those that don't want Hurley to break camp with the Rangers, what is it that he still needs to work on and/or demonstrate before you are ready to see him in Arlington?

by Brandon Wilson on Mar 17, 2008 9:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Answer

I don't know if there's anything he needs to work on per se. He spent much of last year refining his delivery and changeup. (K'ing Matt Holliday on a change the other day was a nice touch.) He's still overthrowing his fastball occasionally and leaving it up.

What I want to see is evidence that he's put it all together. Just a big handful of starts, say 6-10, where he's maintained his control and isn't giving up a homer every six innings. Then, make the call.

by Lucas on Mar 17, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Thanks for asking that. I still haven't seen a real reason other than he just needs a few more starts.

by Chris Martin on Mar 17, 2008 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want

to see consistency in AAA first, a few spring training starts against 2nd tier players doesn't blow me away.

"but the years of drug abuse tore up my immune system pretty good."-Josh Hamilton

by miles on Mar 17, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My idea for the 5th starter

Tampa Bay is reportedly looking for an extra OF that can play some CF. They have young pitching out the wazoo and Edwin Jackson is out of options and might not make their rotation. I think Marlon Byrd would be interesting to them, and Jackson fits the profile of what I'd like to see as a 5th starter in Arlington this season.

Jackson has a pretty bad ML track record so far and has serious control issues, but he is only 24 years old, has super-plus stuff on some nights, and not too long ago was one of the brightest pitching prospects in baseball. My opinion of Jackson might be somewhat biased because I saw him pitch in the Ballpark last August 11 and that was probably his best effort as a professional - a complete game shutout w/ one walk and 8 Ks. That night I kept thinking to myself, "if this guy ever truly gets it, he can be a top-rotation pitcher".

Looking at his fangraphs page, his arsenal is powerful (94 mph avg fastball and 86 mph slider) and he has a slightly favorable groundball ratio. His results last year may have been negatively impacted by a high BABIP (.351) and a low strand rate (65.7%). I think Jackson is a guy that could come in and hold down the 5th spot and do a better job than Ponson et al, while at the same time providing at least a little potential to break out. And if he does happen to get straightened out, you'd have something special. Not real likely, but when the best alternative looks to be horrid, and the cost is only Marlon Byrd - a gamble worth taking.

Thoughts?

Hambone, Hambone where you been? I been around these bases, and I'm going again.

by tricer on Mar 17, 2008 10:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

But why would the

Rays be interested in Byrd? Byrd is a journeyman player whose only value is to a team that will contend this year. (ie: CHC).

"This has been a team effort. No one or two guys could have done all this." - Casey Stengel, after the Mets lost 120 games in 1962

by RangerMad on Mar 17, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

I think he has pretty solid value for us.

Besides, the Rays are feeling pretty confident that they're going in the right direction. They don't need to constantly be trotting out 21-year-olds right now. If a player can help them, then they'll jump on it. I'm not sure that Byrd for Jackson works for them, or for us, but it's not terribly imbalanced.

by brettgardner on Mar 17, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Curious

Why do you hesitate to say that it would work for us?

I'd like to see Byrd moved while he has good trade value. I can understand that JD can't really move him for some low minor prospect because of implications in the clubhouse, but if he can trade Byrd for a guy that can step in and immediately fill a void in the rotation, while at the same time having some real upside - then I think that is a potential deal that works great for Texas. And the link that I posted says that TB is exploring exactly this type of trade.

Hambone, Hambone where you been? I been around these bases, and I'm going again.

by tricer on Mar 17, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

I realize that it's exactly what both teams are looking for in theory. I just meant the actual players. To be sure, I think you're correct that Byrd would fit in nicely there, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's just the player they're after, but I'm just not sure if they'd be willing to part with Jackson, who just completed his first season of more than 6 starts, albeit with less-than-stellar results.

So I suppose I should say that it might not work for me because there's a chance that Jackson won't put it together, and I guess the worrier in me would rather see something reliable come back if we're trading something reliable, but I do understand the necessity of the occasional risk.

Conversely, there's a chance that Jackson just got his feet wet, and he's ready to do something more, so Tampa doesn't want to move him for a guy who's not going to put too many wins in their column.

Objectively, though, there's no doubt that you'd like to have the high-ceiling young pitcher rather than older, reliable-but-maxed-out outfielder.

by brettgardner on Mar 17, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

link

says that they are looking to trade for an OF that can help out in RF and back up Upton in CF.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/16/sp-rays-are-still-mulling-outfield-possibilities/

Hambone, Hambone where you been? I been around these bases, and I'm going again.

by tricer on Mar 17, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jackson

I like this idea quite a bit. His raw stuff is electric and when he is on, he can completely dominate major league hitters.

The problem is that his stuff is still raw. His development was butchered by the Dodgers and his control/command of his secondary pitches never matured. On any given night, he could be Roy Halladay or Robinson Tejeda.

But, given his age and his arsenal, he still has top of the rotation potential. It is a gamble worth taking especially when his ceiling is still so high and the Rangers are "rebuilding".

Trivia: At one point, the Dodgers were so high on Edwin Jackson that they wouldn't include him in a deal to land Randy Johnson.

by jparks77 on Mar 17, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Jackson's raw stuff is electric"

Heck yeah it is.

And just to clarify for those that might never have seen him pitch - we aren't talking about the Jamey Wright type of electric.

He needs some help getting straightened out, and I'm not sure Connor is the guy to do that. But damn, there has to be somebody out there that our pitching coach can actually help. Maybe Jackson is that guy.

Hambone, Hambone where you been? I been around these bases, and I'm going again.

by tricer on Mar 17, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

had this same idea yesterday

when i saw TB's sitution on mlbtraderumors.

not sure on jackson though, id rather have one of the cubs good pitching prospects if JD eventually gets one out of them.

by DSheppard on Mar 17, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edwin Jackson

is actually a year younger than Sean Marshall.

And I don't think the Cubs would even consider giving him or Gallagher or Veal for Byrd. But if they do, sure jump on it. If not, I'd try and look elsewhere for someone with upside that could fill the #5 spot this year.

Hambone, Hambone where you been? I been around these bases, and I'm going again.

by tricer on Mar 17, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hurley

For me I think he's just ready to go out there and pitch. The reason other people like him is probably because they see all of these new ranger prospects all in A ball and want to get to see these guys soon. Hurley has been around the longest and dominated AA and got a taste of AAA. People just want to see the first wave of prospects and Hurley is good enough to do it. Also doesn't hurt that he's a pitcher for the worst pitching team in baseball.

by meatbonelefty on Mar 17, 2008 10:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

People think that Wilmer Font and Neftali Feliz should be in Arlington this year? Who said that?

by mjh on Mar 17, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

how did you get that

from what he said?

by ab03 on Mar 17, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike, just a question?

Is 5-6 starts at AAA enough (depending on results, obviously) or are you talking September call-up/2009? Just wondering what you'd do with Hurley.

by tklawless on Mar 17, 2008 11:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

BTW, I've got $50 on.....

Elysium Fields (how 'bout that, TR) in the future book at 75-1....and we've got El Gato Malo's cousin (for the uninitiated), a 2 y.o. colt out of a full sis to EGM's dam, so I've got a couple of serious rooting interests going here.....any thoughts?

by tklawless on Mar 17, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OKC until Sept

I fail to see how bringing him up sooner benefits either Hurley or the organization.

Having said that....

If he's going lights out in late June,

and has mastered the art of throwing any pitch in any count at any time,

and the Rangers are somehow contending,

and one of their starters goes down,

then I'd want to see him in Arlington before September.

by mjh on Mar 17, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't you think

Something important can be learned from facing a good amount ML hitting and making mistakes against it, especially since I'd assume you'd be ready to pencil him in for 2009?

by brettgardner on Mar 17, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

*of

by brettgardner on Mar 17, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brett Gardner gets it!!!

as per usual. Like a couple of months is going to make that big of a differance. Let him learn in Arlington with the big boys. He'll be fine, better than that has been Ponson. He'll also have a big advantage going into 2009.

Josh Hits-a-ton is the new Gonezilla, minus the syringes.

by LAMuscleFag on Mar 17, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't you

setting the bar a little high?

"and has mastered the art of throwing any pitch in any count at any time,"

How many ML pitchers can do that? No too many.

"This has been a team effort. No one or two guys could have done all this." - Casey Stengel, after the Mets lost 120 games in 1962

by RangerMad on Mar 17, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

just the good ones

and I think he can be one of those guys if the Rangers give him a little more time to work out the final kinks

the last thing I want is for Eric to get pushed up a little too soon and then get a reputation as a guy who can only do this or can't do that; he's capable of being a pitcher who doesn't have to be limited in any way, shape or form

I talked to several knowledgable people who have seen his ST outings and they all said that he still telegraphs his offspeed pitch too much (arm speed is different than his FB), and that he tends to lose location when he's trying to put someone away (losing Scott Podsednik after putting him behind 0-2? why nibble around Scott Podsednik? he's not going to hurt you).

my opinion is that,yes, he's better than Sir Sidney right now, but the extra two or three wins he'd represent over Ponson between now and September won't make a difference

I also believe that if they wait until September, chances are pretty good that they'll unveil a rookie big league starter without any obvious deficiencies... I'd like to see that both for Eric and for the Rangers

by mjh on Mar 18, 2008 5:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hurley

Other than the fact he is the only Ranger starter to have even a semi-decent spring, there is no no tangible value to him or the team returning to AAA. If there were some egregious deficiency in his mechanics or stuff, he wouldn't still be with the major leaguers. That statement doesn't mean he won't be exposed by major league hitters, but whatever his problems may be, they apparently aren't bad enough that they require adjustment in the minor leagues or he would be there.

by doolindalton on Mar 17, 2008 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Gads, of all people,

Dusty Baker knows when Hurley's ready ...

"You want me to say it or are you going to say," Baker said. "They're [Cuerto and Volquez] pitching like they belong along side (Aaron) Harang and (Bronson) Arroyo in the rotation. They're dealing. They came in ready to pitch. They played Winter Ball so they're ahead, not so much with velocity but with command. That's what you need. They're pounding the strike zone. If you walk people, you have no chance. If you get behind people, you have little chance."

When Hurley looks like he's making Dusty happy, call him up.

World's Most Dangerous Hiking Trail

by shroomer on Mar 17, 2008 12:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hurley

I'm in Adam's camp on this one. There's no real need to rush Hurley to the majors, this is most likely a rebuilding year in any event, and it certainly won't hurt him to build a run of seven to ten nice starts in AAA before starting a major league game. Plus, starting him in Oklahoma this year won't burn an option.

If Ponson ends up as the fifth starter, you might be able to flip him for something if he pitches well (or keep him), and if he doesn't then just cut him loose in a couple months.

Don't confuse that position with Hindman's which is basically that Hurley isn't very good.

by Darrell McKown on Mar 17, 2008 1:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

disagree with rebuilding premise

whether he is a future star or a future 5th starter, I'd rather him learn in the big leagues in a rebuilding season than have to learn on the fly in a season we hope to contend...
having said that, I am not sold he needs to be brought up, but I just generally dislike the "don't rush him argument". If someone had convinced the Tigers to "not rush" Justin Verlander they may have missed out on a major league season or two of outstanding pitching. Not saying Hurley is or isn't Verlander, just that "rushing" is a case by case thing not based on age or professional experience. period.

by Brandon Wilson on Mar 17, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well said

2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 17, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well....

It one thing to learn, it's another thing to get thrown into something you aren't really ready for.

His run in AAA last year didn't give you the impression he was ready to pitch at the major league level yet.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that he stay in AAA all season, so I'm not sure I understand the "have to learn on the fly in a season we hope to contend" comment.

by Darrell McKown on Mar 17, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

T.R. - Hurley gets another A-game start

http://trsullivan.mlblogs.com/trsullivan/2008/03/hurley_gets_ano.html

World's Most Dangerous Hiking Trail

by shroomer on Mar 17, 2008 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

oh so interesting

i think that a couple months in AAA is probably the best route (and assuming he does well in that 2 months), but I cant deny I would be excited to see hurley pitch and would be out there for his first start.

would offset my loss of excitement that laird will be there over salty.

by DSheppard on Mar 17, 2008 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well.....

Everyone knows my stance on Hurley. But it's damn good to see the amount of people that say that giving him a chance now isn't all that bad of an idea.

I think him pitching in another "A" game is a pretty good sign. I'd be willing to bet that IF he does well Saturday against an in-division rival, it would not surprised me in the slightest to see him in uniform on opening day.

by bigups41 on Mar 17, 2008 8:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs