Objective Function Rankings: Second Base

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:21 PM CST

This is a continuation of my seeing how it comes out when I adapt Bill James's objective formula for ranking players by career to Baseball Prospectus's Wins Above Replacement metric. This is designed to weigh peak, best seasons and career.

This is second basemen. I have previously done first base and catcher. The catcher diary has a more thorough explination.

1.    Hornsby, Rogers    181.94
2.    Morgan, Joe    173.96
3.    LaJoie, Nap    173.63
4.    Collins, Eddie    164.61
5.    Barnes, Ross    157.51
6.    Gehringer, Charlie    151.92
7.    Robinson, Jackie    147.42
8.    Alomar, Roberto    146.57
9.    Herman, Billy    142.52
10.    Sandberg, Ryne    141.38
11.    Frisch, Frankie    140.88
12.    Grich, Bobby    139.99
13.    Carew, Rod    139.89
14.    Doerr, Bobby    135.64
15.    Kent, Jeff    134.33
16.    Biggio, Craig    133.59
17.    McPhee, Bid    131.93
18.    Whitaker, Lou    131.11
19.    Dunlap, Fred    126.36
20.    Gordon, Joe    126.35
21.    Richardson, Hardy    125.92
22.    Randolph, Willie    120.65
23.    Childs, Cupid    119.31
24.    Mazeroski, Bill    118.41
25.    Stanky, Eddie    118.39
26.    Schoendienst, Red    117.92
27.    Fox, Nellie    117.02
28.    Knoblauch, Chuck    113.82
29.    Frey, Lonny    113.69
30.    Williams, Jimmy    113.23
31.    Durham, Ray    112.97
32.    Lazzeri, Tony    111.69
33.    Lopes, Davey    108.92
34.    McDougald, Gil    108.44
35.    Polanco, Placido    107.64
36.    Pratt, Del    107.34
37.    Baerga, Carlos    104.91
38.    Boone, Bret    104.39
39.    Soriano, Alfonso    102.61
40.    White, Frank    101.62
41.    Alfonzo, Edgardo    101.04
42.    Myer, Buddy    100.52
43.    Gleason, Kid    100.21
44.    Priddy, Jerry    99.46
45.    Gilliam, Jim    99.03
46.    Sax, Steve    98.55
47.    Thompson, Robby    98.12
48.    Hudson, Orlando    97.76
49.    Huggins, Miller    97.02
50.    Ritchey, Claude    96.89

Top 10 Career Wins Above Replacement

1.    LaJoie, Nap    178.8
2.    Collins, Eddie    175.2
3.    Morgan, Joe    170.3
4.    Hornsby, Rogers    169.6
5.    Gehringer, Charlie    139.1
6.    Alomar, Roberto    137.2
7.    Whitaker, Lou    131.1
8.    Frisch, Frankie    129.6
9.    Carew, Rod    123.7
10.    Biggio, Craig    122.4

Top 10 Combined Best Three Seasons

1.    Hornsby, Rogers    45.6
2.    Barnes, Ross    43.7
3.    Morgan, Joe    42.3
4.    LaJoie, Nap    41.6
5.    Collins, Eddie    39.5
6.    Robinson, Jackie    38.9
7.    Gehringer, Charlie    35.8
8.    Sandberg, Ryne    35.8
9.    Kent, Jeff    35.5
10.    Frisch, Frankie    34.9

Top 10 Peaks

1.    Hornsby, Rogers    68.1
2.    Morgan, Joe    66.7
3.    Barnes, Ross    62.4
4.    LaJoie, Nap    60.6
5.    Robinson, Jackie    59.6
6.    Collins, Eddie    57.5
7.    Gehringer, Charlie    57.3
8.    Herman, Billy    54.3
9.    McPhee, Bid    54
10.    Carew, Rod    53.6

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Comments

question about biggio

does his years as catcher and oufielder hurt him?

what i mean is, did you do the entire career, or just when they played that position?

send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER

by gossamer on Mar 2, 2008 7:25 PM CST reply actions

Biggio

He's a guy that becomes great when you look at his entire career. I don't mean that to diminish his peak years because they were great, but when you consider the longevity and the different roles he fulfilled while maintaining a solid offensive career, then you begin to see that he truly was a great player.

by rangeressary on Mar 2, 2008 7:43 PM CST up reply actions

This is just on paper, of course.

His time in the outfield does hurt him, yes. Catcher is a little difficult because he loses playing time, but offense is more valuable at catcher. It likely hurts him, but not very much. Of course, he wasn't very good yet when he was a catcher, either.

Neither hurts him much, though. His peak and best years were all at second, and most of his career was there as well, so if he had only played second his numbers would likely be pretty much the same.

When you start to judge him beyond just the numbers, though, the fact that he did move around and could play multiple positions, his excellent (not stealing, steals are measured) baserunning as well as a number of other things give should give him a boost.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:50 PM CST up reply actions

REALLY GOOD STUFF.

This BA! I saw that you said something about catchers, so I will look this up again. Have you done any other bags?

Sorry to have to ask for a post. I'm new here and think this is great stuff.

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 8:37 PM CST up reply actions

Thank you.

I have done catchers and first base. I'm going in numerical order.

Save for pitchers, because I don't have a nice list for pitchers to go off of yet. I'm saving them for last, since it will be more of an undertaking.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions

philkid3

you wouldn't happen to go to Texas would you?

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 8:53 PM CST up reply actions

Nope

I'm on temporary medical leave from Washington State Univerity (no sob story, it's just hard saying I go there when I am not actively taking classes).

Why do you ask?

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 9:39 PM CST up reply actions

My TA...

is a big baseball fan also and was talking about something sort of like this. Maybe thought you might be him.

by thesplendidsplinter on Mar 2, 2008 9:42 PM CST up reply actions

Bobby Grich

Once again, thanks so much for your work on these. I truly enjoy reading them.

Bobby Grich should be in the Hall of Fame. Seriously, he's a glaring miss IMO.

Also, maybe I've just been so turned off by Joe Morgan the commentator, but really should he be that close to Roger Hornsby (who is quite possibly the greatest pure hitter to ever play the game)?

by rangeressary on Mar 2, 2008 7:41 PM CST reply actions

Thank you very much.

I really do like hearing that this is appreciated and not just the ramblings of some crackpot.

Bobby Grich is in my (and others') opinion one of the most absurd omissions from Cooperstown, and I don't even need this list to think that. He is the best eligible secondbaseman left out, and behind only guys like Dick Allen, Ron Santo and Bert Blyleven on the idiocy scale.

Joe Morgan was awesome, and this measure might put him farther behind Hornsby than he should be. Many (Bill James included) make a strong case that Morgan is the greatest second baseman of all-time.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions

These are cool - thumbs up

I have a baseball signed by all the Astros from Joe Morgan's early days there. Maybe I should sell it to Ken Tremendous and retire. ha

Jackie Robinson - everybody knows about the first black man to play yada yada yada, but people stop there and move on before realizing how talented he was. I wonder ... if Jackie had his drothers, would he choose to be remembered as a historically BADAZZ ballplayer rather than a social milestone? hmmmm...

by shroomer on Mar 2, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions

J-Rob

I know what you mean about Jackie Robinson. He was voted to the All-Century team because of what he meant to the game. The general saying was, "he's not here because of what he did on the field."

So what happens is this weird outlook, where there are either people that overrate him for what he did off the field or underrate him because they don't realize how good he was and/or don't like people overrating him because of his legacy.

In reality, you remove the historical aspect of his playing days and look just at what he did on the field and you have a tragically underrated player (just as a player). The legend has overshadowed just how good the actual player really was. He was absolutely awesome.

And without time lost to military service and segregation, he'd be even higher.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 8:44 PM CST up reply actions

Rogers Hornsby...

how fun would it have been to watch that guy play ball.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 2, 2008 7:59 PM CST reply actions

my fav player when i was little

bill mazeroski

who will forever be known for his WS winning HR instead of his redic. good defense at 2b.

by knockoutking24 on Mar 2, 2008 8:37 PM CST reply actions

One thing I should point out:

I'll try and remember this when I finish third base, too.

One of the largest problems people have with FRAR -- the fielding metric that forms part of WARP -- is that it overrates deadball shortstops and second basemen and underrates deadball third basemen and first basemen. To what degree is mostly debated, but it's largely agreed that it's to a very small degree at first and short and a very large degree at second and third.

This most notably is seen to overrate Nap Lajoie, who comes out as just about the greatest defensive second baseman ever, which he's not. The prime example of an underrated player at third will be Pie Traynor.

Just something to be aware of.

Also, offense was less valuable at second even part way in to the live-ball era and managers had not yet adjusted to changes in the game and were still putting hitters at second base, which is why Hornsby's offense doesn't get the position boost that you'd think (though it does get a large boost). This is where the argument that Joe Morgan was the greater second sacker stems from, largely.

by philkid3 on Mar 2, 2008 9:43 PM CST reply actions

These diaries...

have been great. Thanks for doing them. I'm looking forward to the other positions.

The argument that Morgan was better than Hornsby just simply can't be made in my opinion. I don't see how anyone could look at what Hornsby did and not say he was the greatest 2B of all time. Again, just my opinion.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 2, 2008 10:31 PM CST up reply actions

+1

On everything slc said... those are very good diaries, even though I admit, some of these stats and anylisis are a little over my head.

But if Joe Morgan was better than Rogers Hornsby, I'll eat my shorts.

"The only thing Gerald Laird can beat me at is number of glazed donuts eaten in 10 minutes" - Miles

by LSJ on Mar 2, 2008 10:59 PM CST up reply actions

Morgan > Hornsby

As one who doesn't argue Morgan over Hornsby, I'm the wrong person to ask. Who you should look up is the master himself: Bill James. He does rank Morgan as the best second baseman of all-time, and he's a lot smarter than most of us, to boot.

It centers around a few things, usually. Morgan played in a more advanced (but less offensive) league and played significantly better defense at a position where defense is very important. Along with that, there is the idea that in Hornsby's time, great hitters were still being put at second no matter how poor their defense, so the value of offense at the position was less.

Then there's the idea of Morgan being a better teammate, and that if two players are similar, the player who can do more things is more useful for a team.

And, finally, for what it's worth, Morgan was arguably the best player in baseball for five years or so. Hornsby had claim to that maybe one season in his life (I agree with that, but it doesn't matter much to me).

Anyway, I urge you to instead of just dismissing it, actually looking in to the argument. As said, I disagree with it and have Hornsby higher, but the argument to the contrary has an extremely strong foundation. It's not idiocy.

by philkid3 on Mar 3, 2008 1:48 AM CST up reply actions