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OT: Talk Radio

On my lunch break today I was looking for a station I felt certain would give me a weather report so I found WBAP-820 during the Rush Limbaugh show.  It took less than 30 seconds to hear him compare the Clintons to roaches and also hear the caller he was talking to giggle like a little girl.  During the commercial/news/weather break a couple of minutes later they played a commercial for a guy who is on in the afternoon railing on Obama and his so called resume.  

Now, I am certainly no fan of the Clintons and to be honest I don't know much about Obama so I really don't have a huge problem with conservatives bagging on them so please don't take this as a liberal who got his feelings hurt by the bid bad conservatives.  But it got me to thinking......how can even the staunchest conservatives listen to this crap?  I suspect Air America was very similar the other way but I never heard that so I don't have a frame of reference.

I tried to think of an interest of mine that would equate.  I love the Cowboys.  The Rangers are a DISTANT second in my sports loyalty.  I would watch (and have) a Cowboys pre-season game before I would watch a late season Rangers game even if they were in a pennant race.  But I still can't imagine that I would enjoy listening to Dallas Cowboys radio for hours on end where they do nothing but support all moves made by Jerry and dismiss any and all moves but the Redskins and/or Eagles.  I guess that Mickey Spagnola would be the host of that show.

Anyway, could someone explain the fascination to me?

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+1
"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 3, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Simpler
Why would someone listen to something all day every day that just repeats the same stuff even if they did agree with most of it?  Wouldn't you want a different point of view every once in a while?

by Chris Martin on Mar 3, 2008 5:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I suspect
What they really want to listen to are the arguments between the hosts and the liberal callers.  Typically, all hosts make a point os saying that they want dissenting opinions, and ask their call screeners to put such callers at the front of the line.

Take the Favre retirement as an example.  Could anyone seriously listen to ESPN wail all day long from the mountain top that we've lost the greatest player ever to put on shoulder pads?  It would bore me after two minutes.  But someone is going to call in and say that he was way over-rated, that he didn't do enough film study, that he forced half the passes he threw, that Green Bay could have won another SB with a different QB...and then it will get interesting.

by scourge on Mar 4, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Limbaugh...
typical far right hypocrite.

Besides, I though he was encouraging people to vote for Hillary to try and keep the dem race close so anarchy in the party would break out?

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 3, 2008 5:31 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He is
and that is smart politics right there.

Hilary will criticize him in ways in which McCain is unable to, because of the far-left media.  As a conservative, it makes sense for desiring that those two battle it out as long as they can with the nominee emerging vulnerable due to being "exposed" by the losing democrat.

by Agreen07 on Mar 3, 2008 6:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

we could do this
republicans can vote for the dem they hate most, dems can vote for the pub they hate the most.  

then we can have a general election with the 2 least liked candidates.  both parties win in who they run against.

only loser?

america and americans.

go democracy!

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No we couldn't...
not all primaries are open to any voter.  Thus in Texas a republican can vote in the dem primaries.  It isn't like this in every state.

by Agreen07 on Mar 4, 2008 7:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

more like dirty politics
Anyone who votes like this should have their voting privledges revolked.  Those dudes IMO are one step below those that walk in, hit "R" or "D" then submit.
If there is one lawyer in town, he goes broke. If there are two, they both get rich

by Taylor on Mar 4, 2008 7:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fascination...
people listen to and watch things they don't like. This was/is big with Howard Stern. People that hate him listen longer just to see what he will say. Many people that like these "shock-jocks" don't listen to them as long as the people that don't like them. I don't really get it either, but that has always been the rational I have heard.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 3, 2008 5:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm
Listening to Howard right now, but I love him and always have.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 5:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh
I think mainstream conservatism these days is fueled by an anger that comes from a half century of losing mixed with the typical arrogance of loud-mouthed religious leaders.  A real conservative--say, Barry Goldwater--would be disgusted with the direction of the movement, as he was near the end of his life.

In any case, it's a lot easier to get and keep people listening if they're angry--either at you or with you.  If some douche goes on the air and talks about the lofty ideals of small government, it's going to be a snooze-fest.

For what it's worth, I've done some research about the relationship between polemics/"angry" political citizens and status.  Of course, it was hard to research, as we had to rely on self-ID, but we did find that white men aged 55+ are most likely to self-ID, with middle-aged black women right behind.  It was difficult to ascertain a definite relationship with SES.  Don't know what the point of telling this is--I guess just that everybody's annoying.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 5:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sigh.
Thanks for your contribution.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 5:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How
Am I portraying in any way world-weariness?  I'm just not taking the bait of your trolling.  Sorry if that pisses you off, but arguing with you isn't exactly a top priority.  I know you might have ben stroking you after your witty little remark, but it didn't register enough with me to warrant a retort in kind.  You can keep trying, though--I can see that you strive to become my new argument-buddy, and if you sharpen up, you might get there someday.  

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 6:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ooh
You got me.  Look at you: the puppet master.  What's next?

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily typical
I'm well past 55, and can't tolerate either ultra conservative or ultra liberal (POV is a moving target) rants.  I also do my best not to listen to those furthest out, even when there may be some points of agreement.

Painting others with sometimes exaggerated tales of their unfitness for the human role somehow pays the bills when aimed at a piece of the populace that I purely don't understand. I can make my own decisions about who is bad, what is bad, and whether I should be an activist or not.

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 3, 2008 6:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
Agree with you on Goldwater, consider myself a conservative with a brain (as he was).

Limbaugh is an entertainer, thats all. He is like  all shock jocks including Howard Stern, who I have great disdain for as well.

by rldwb on Mar 3, 2008 7:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If conservative = conservative
id be one.  unfortunately i rarely see anything conservative about republicans.

i wish we had small government, i wish GOP would stand for that.  its rhetoric nothing more.

it leaves those who want less government interference all the way around with no1.  

i also one day want a conservative who has a conservative foreign policy.  those guys just dont exist.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 9:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rush Limbaugh is a comedian
i'm not a big fan of his brand of humor, however.

by SteveP on Mar 3, 2008 6:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

"Dittoheads"
The fact that people would actually take pride in such a moniker has always baffled me.

But they do. Oh how they do.

Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.

by Brian Thomas on Mar 3, 2008 6:48 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You mean like...
Rome's "clones"?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 3, 2008 6:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rome sucks on TV
but his radio show is amazing.  Probably the best alongside Dan Patrick.

by Agreen07 on Mar 3, 2008 8:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Birch Barlow

Birch Barlow: Mayor Quimby, you are well known for your lenient stance on crime, but suppose for a second that your house was ransacked by thugs, your family was tied up in the basement with socks in their mouths, you try to open the door but there's too much blood on the knob--
Mayor Quimby: What is your question?
Birch Barlow: My question is about the budget, sir.

For the second year in a row, the Academy gets it right. That means next year is going to be UGLY.

by TheBZA on Mar 3, 2008 7:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Chris Martin
You wrote:
Why would someone listen to something all day every day that just repeats the same stuff even if they did agree with most of it?  Wouldn't you want a different point of view every once in a while?

I like Rush Limbaugh.  However, I usually only listen for short periods.  Sometimes, I just don't want to hear the same voice for long periods.

Limbaugh says his listeners came to him b/c he was the first person who validated their conservative opinions.  They had, for years, heard no one on TV or Radio who had similar political views to themselves.  They felt all alone in a hostile environment.  When they heard Limbaugh, they said:  "Yeah!  Finally!  Someone in media who agrees with me!"

Limbaugh's listeners remain with him, I believe, for several reasons.

First:  Limbaugh delivers information which is not delivered by the mainstream media(MSM).  

When I first learned to move around the internet, I was shocked at how skewed MSM reporting was.  I had never believed the stories about the MSM, until I saw the mountains of evidence for myself.  I read, on the net, texts of speeches which were unrecognizable in the MSM stories about which ostensibly covered them.  I began to see news on the net which was simply ignored in the MSM - because the news did not fit the political agenda of the MSM.  The Duke Lacrosse non-rape fits this description.  The Jena, LA non-racial non-incident fits this description.  The tremendous success of the "surge" in Iraq fits this description.  As late as Gen Patreaus Sept. '07 Congressional testimony, Sen. Clinton could call Gen. Patreaus a liar with a straight face, b/c the majority MSM coverage of Iraq was not accurately portraying the on-the-ground reality.

Anyway, for people who do not consistently read  internet news sources, Limbaugh remains a good source of information which is covered up and hidden by the MSM.  Limbaugh is sort of like a political newspaper.  He looks around at the news of the day, and delivers it to his listeners.  It is often news they could not get from their newspaper, or from CBS Evening News, or from ABC Radio News, or from NPR.

Second, as alluded to by another commenter:  Limbaugh is an entertainer.  

Limbaugh is a consumate radio professional.  He understands people will not listen to consistent technical political talk. Therefore, Limbaugh delivers humor throughout his shows.  One really must listen for an hour or two to get a sense of what he does.  If you just graze through, you will hear inside jokes and tongue in cheek references which are gleefully designed to piss off the American left.  You might think these things are serious.  They are not.  They are humor, and any long-time Limbaugh listener knows that.

Failure to understand this is, I suspect, mostly responsible for the failure of Air America.  They believed they could do political rants for hour after hour and still keep their audience.  They were not the talented radio technicians which Limbaugh is.  Limbaugh loves radio.  He is a radio professional.  Air America personnel were political ranters.  Between the two, there's a big difference in entertainment value.

Third, it's a mistake to believe Limbaugh's listeners are acolytes who blindly agree with his opinions.  

Surveys show that conservative radio listeners have solidly more education and solidly higher incomes than the averages American.  Limbaugh is making arguments which appeal to their logic and reason, and also to their principles and values.  They are critically listening, studying whether his opinions are valid or not.  I know this is exactly opposite from the stereotype which is commonly believed, yet is simply is fact.  Radio, rightly so, obsessively studies their listeners. They must, in order to sell advertising.  Conservative talk radio is a gold mine of wealthier and more educated listeners.

I suspect conservative radio listeners enjoy the greater intellectual engagement which is available (relative to typical radio or to MSM reporting) on conservative radio.  And, maybe they just enjoy the subject, as I do. At heart, conservative vs. liberal is a metaphysical argument about whether man's nature is good or evil.  

If man's nature is good(liberal belief), then pain/suffering/injustice are caused by inadequate religion/ philosophy/ principles/ standards/ government.  The solution is to change to more effective philosophy/ principles/ government.  America's Founding Fathers really have little to say about modern government.  Pelosi/ Reid/ Ruth Bader Ginsburg/ American Bar Association have much better ideas about how modern governmennt ought to function.

If man's nature is evil(conservative belief), then pain/ suffering/ injustice will always be with us, b/c man will always fall short of upholding his principles/ religion/ government ideals.  The principles/ religion/ government do not fail man.  Rather, he fails them.  Pain/ suffering/ injustice is not so much a bug as a feature.  It's not that we ought seek them out (we shouldn't).  However, their existence does turn our eyes towards the eternal and spiritual; and their existence does allow us to delineate and comprehend pleasure/ comfort/ justice, for instance.  

Liberal vs. Conservative politics flows from this fundamental question:  is man's nature good or evil?  Many political disagreements can be directly traced back to the disagree-ers divergent opinions about this fundamental principle of existence.  It's interesting.  On good conservative talk radio(Hugh Hewitt, for example), you can listen in on discussions which analyze both sides of a modern day issue, then trace the issue back to it's roots (even if those roots go all the way back to this fundamental), then run back up to the modern day of the issue.  Done well, it's compelling radio - especially when compared with the radio alternatives available.

Personal note 1:  if you are a self-decribed moderate, take care not to substitute faith in "moderation" for actual understanding of the issues.  

I've no respect for your moderate self description, b/c it is often a mask for lack of understanding.  I respect you if you have reasoned out an understanding of an issue.  Usually, moderates are too busy patting themselves on the back to actually understand a contentious issue.  Usually, moderates are more smug than Prius drivers.  If you self-describe as "moderate", then you've got larger hurdles to clear if you are to gain my respect.  I've more respect for leftists who are dead wrong, yet at least are trying to understand the issue they are wrong about.

Personal note 2: if you are a leftist (who is dead wrong - heh), take care to understand both sides of whatever issue you are spouting about.

Know that I understand your side (the left side) of the issue.  If I don't understand it, I will be asking you for more information, b/c I want to understand it.  If you make a good argument, I will join you on the left side of the issue!  Absolutely.  I am not trying to "win" an issue.  I am trying to ascertain:  true, or false?  right, or wrong?  If I am wrong about something, or have incorrect info about something, I want to know it even more than you want me to know it.  I will change my opinion.  Don't ever doubt it.

I find, however, that although I can explain both my side of an issue and your side of an issue, you cannot do the same.  You've little or no idea why I believe the way I do.  

The biggest reason for this is that you have demonized me and dismissed me a) as a viable intellect, and b) as a viable person of good intention.  I want to help poor and oppressed people just as much as you do.  I've serious  reasons for believing your policies will only keep those people poor and oppressed, and will not provide opportunity for them to raise themselves out of poverty.  You do not acknowledge to yourself that my intentions are just as honorable as yours.  

Thus, you dismiss me.  I understand.  I would not give 2 seconds consideration to Hitler's preferred Social Security policy.  However, if you can find it within your worldview to consider that I may not be Hitler, then you would further benefit from understanding my side of an issue.  I know you are not in favor of your own ignorance.  You will be less ignorant if you understand my side of the issue.

And you will sharpen your reasoning and debating skills.  As it is, your only weapons often seem to be ad hominem, straw man, appeal to authority, and petulance.  Know that, listening to you, it certainly appears that your reasoning and debating skills are detoriating, due to lack of use.  Use it or lose it! Your reasoning ability is getting dull.  Your demonization of me, and your knee jerk flinging of ad hominem is not serving you well.  

And, that's it.  I certainly could've tip toed around my opinions in more careful fashion ... but what fun would that have been?  Let the temper-tantrums and the snark begin, if you are so inclined.  I hope you have found some value in this, if you have read or skimmed this far.

 

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 8:14 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

you're great.
and the award for most self-aggrandizing post of the year goes to....

by disposablehero on Mar 3, 2008 8:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Concur
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 3, 2008 8:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
I'll second that.

Basically: I rule! Liberals are teh suck!

But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 8:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

trza
you slander me with "basically"!  Actually!  Actually, I rule, and liberals are teh suck!
Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 8:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

im voting for
Jon McClain!

he's got more experience fighting terrorists than any1.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 9:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

greatness
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 8:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay.
You wrote:  "I've no respect for your moderate self description, b/c it is often a mask for lack of understanding.  I respect you if you have reasoned out an understanding of an issue.  Usually, moderates are too busy patting themselves on the back to actually understand a contentious issue.  Usually, moderates are more smug than Prius drivers.  If you self-describe as "moderate", then you've got larger hurdles to clear if you are to gain my respect.  I've more respect for leftists who are dead wrong, yet at least are trying to understand the issue they are wrong about."

I am a self-described moderate.  I could give two shits whether or not I have the respect of anyone that listens to Rush Limbaugh.  I suspect that most other moderates would agree with that.

by Athos on Mar 4, 2008 2:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Athos
noted.

Thank you for fully considering my assertion  that "moderate" is often(usually, in my experience) a mask for a lack of understanding of issues.

Moderates are usually illogical, unvirtuous, holier than thou, and flatly ignorant.  On so many issues, they favor splitting the baby, and they wildly pat themselves on the back for being so wise and humanitarian.

It's good that you don't give two shits, because you are likely incapable of winning anyone over to agree with your (lack of) reasoning.  The dumbest leftist I can think of ... and I think that would be Cindy Sheehan ... or anyone on the Berkeley, CA city council ... at least use reasoning, to the best of their ability, to win people over to agree with them.  They are more logical than most any "moderate", and I respect them more.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 3:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm the arrogant one here?
Your posts in this diary are dripping with arrogance that is, frankly, quite common amongst people who follow Rush Limbaugh with any degree of regularity.

The elitist tone you strike is neither endearing nor does it add any particular credibility to your opinions.  Many of the readers of this blog have professional degrees and are either beautifully educated or on their way to obtaining a beautiful education.  Accordingly, your tone isn't impressive and probably does more to undermine your arguments than the merit (or lack thereof) of the arguments themselves.

My point was, and remains, very simple.  Why should anyone here care one way or the other about whether or not they have in some way validated themselves in your eyes?

"Your opinions are wrong and until you convince me otherwise (which is, granted, an impossible proposition) you will either be wrong out of ignorance or malice."  See how silly and arrogant that sounds?  Now honestly, do you really think anybody here covets the approval of somebody that sounds like that?

by Athos on Mar 4, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Beat me to it
Well said...
Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.

by Brian Thomas on Mar 4, 2008 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This thread quickly dissolved
into Huck's misplaced criticism of moderates.

Toss me in with the other moderates who, get this, CHOOSE to be conservative on some issues and liberal on others.

Hey Huck, do eclectic people lack an understanding of life? Just curious.

Thankfully, Athos did the busy work here in parsing your parodies.

2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 4, 2008 8:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

chase
Still no substance.  Name calling only.  Can you guys not see yourselves at all?

If my criticism is misplaced, where is it misplaced?

I did not intend to criticize those who are conservative on some issues and liberal on other issues.  I clearly stated that in my last comment, if you had been scrupulous enough to read it.

Eclectic:  again, I did not intend to criticize people who are sometimes conservative and sometimes liberal.  

"Athos parsed Huck's parodies."  Bunk.

Athos objected to "respect."  I think he might be right.  Maybe I could've said that a better way than saying "respect."

The "moderate" thing turned out to be a miscommunication.  No harm no foul.  

Athos mischaracterized my words about being "wrong".  He gets negative points for mischaracterizing me.  If you're interested(I know you are not) I will explain how he mischaracterized.

The rest of Athos amounts calling me names.  Calling names does not amount to parsing.  Parsing is what I've just patiently done to your comment.  If I had ranted through a reply in which I called you a bunch of names, and avoided  substance, I wouldn't then be so shameless and blind to myself as to claim I had parsed through your words.  

I don't see how you guys cannot see that you almost continually jump into name calling contests which are absent of substance.  The name-calling contest is your preferred ground.  Substantive questions or issues are anathema.  I know you guys are not as empty-headed as you appear to be.  But there's little evidence here to prove different.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 9:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Huck
"Moderates are usually illogical, unvirtuous, holier than thou, and flatly ignorant."

Repeat that out loud and then consider how foolish it looks when printed.

Is that not a gross, sweeping, and patently false generalization?

In just one thread of an "OT: Talk Radio" diary on a baseball message board, you have already been soundly refuted by 3 separate dissenters of your proclamation.

I read almost every thread on this board, which includes your comment, glossing over troll posts as necessary.

Lastly, you've already admitted that you've stepped back from your initial contentions, then continue to parody yourself. I'm done.

2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 4, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Chase
Chase:
"Moderates are usually illogical, unvirtuous, holier than thou, and flatly ignorant."
[...]
Is that not a gross, sweeping, and patently false generalization?  

Well, I did say "usually"! I was talking about people who are knee jerk compromisers.  I did say, in the original quote Athos used "I respect you if you have reasoned out an understanding of an issue."

Are knee-jerk compromisers usually:

  • illogical?  I say yes.
  • unvirtuous?  I say yes, in the sense they advocate compromised policies which are not optimal policies for the nation.  That's unvirtuous, imo.
  • holier than thou?  This is ad hominem - so  maybe I could've excluded it.  But, in my experience, this is an understatement to describe people who don't understand jack about an issue, yet smugly consider themselves geniuses of proposed compromise!
  • flatly ignorant?  More ad hominem.  With this assertion, I was basically calling Athos a jackass.  You are correct that I would've been better off to have excuded this.  However, if you want to be technical about it, the knee-jerk compromisers are most often ignorant about issues.  If I had to testify under oath, I would stand by the accuracy of "ignorant".
Lets see, what else do you throw out...
you have already been soundly refuted by 3 separate dissenters of your proclamation.
 
I laugh.  Your opinion is noted.
I read almost every thread on this board, which includes your comment  
Before posting at 8:24, you clearly did not read my 7:56 reply to Athos, in which I clearly stated I was talking about knee jerk compromisers, as opposed to those who think through issues and have some liberal and some conservative views.
you've already admitted that you've stepped back from your initial contentions  

I have said I wish I had not written "respect."  Secondly, I have recognized Athos and I miscommunicated re the definition of "moderate."  I am happy to change and amend when I have been in the wrong.  I am proud to do so.  I am grateful when someone points out my error.  Yet, I sense you are criticizing me for ... what(?)... being an imperfect human being?  This doesn't reflect well on you.  Maybe you just got carried away in the heat of the moment.  God knows that has happened to me plenty of times.
then continue to parody yourself  
 See, this is more vague name calling.  How, exactly, do I parody myself by openly and seriously addressing the comments of you and Athos?  Only, you don't have to answer, as you are done.  I have, several times, complimented commenters for seriously addressing issues with reason and logic.  To you, I say

Cordially,
Huck

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Athos
This is kind of unimportant, but I never specifically accused moderates of being "arrogant".  I was trying mightily to accuse moderates of being(most of the time) ignorant, condescending, and self-congratulatory. But, that's a minor and completely unimportant quibble.  

As to my own arrogance, I plead guilty.  

But, what am I really guilty of?  I don't think my IQ is higher than most anyone else's here.  I have education, yet I don't think my education or my knowledge is superior to most anyone else's here.  I know danged well that I make mistakes of logic and reason all the time.  I admit them.  Unless I'm having a terrible day of weakness and frustration, I admit my mistakes on the many occasions I see them.  

So, just what is it about my comments that pisses you off so much?

Well, of course, I have openly provoked you by calling out your self-described moderation.  I did that b/c I think it's true(for most moderates), and also just for the fun of provoking you guys.

Yet, notice I did not just call names and run.  I made a specific allegation:  for the most part, moderates have only the most shallow understanding of political issues.  For the most part, moderates neither understand why liberals believe as they do, nor why conservatives believe as they do.  For the most part, moderates smugly call out:  "Split the baby, you liberal and conservative fools!"  Then moderates walk away while wildly pat themselves on the back for being so wise.  Yet, for anyone who wishes to look, the smugness and the back patting do not obscure the moderates' ignorance of both the issue, and of the immorality of splitting the baby.  

Notice how you have responded, puffing yourself up in a big self-righteous voice:  "Neither I nor anyone else gives two shits about anyone who  listens to Rush Limbaugh, ahem."  LOL!  This is the only way you know to respond!  

I'm saying most moderates are ignorant about issues.  You could partially disprove by demonstrating good knowledge of an issue, or of a couple of issues!  That never occurs to you!  All you understand is self-rightousness and self-congratulation!  

I'm saying splitting the baby is usually so inappropriate as to actually be immoral(b/c it fails to be the best solution for the nation).  Well, moderation is not the wrong solution for EVERY issue.  You could, at the least, point out one or two issues where moderation is a good solution(those issues exist), yet that doesn't occur to you either!  Your puffed up self-righteousness is so stereotypical as be beyond hilarity!  You've got open opportunities to at least partially counter my assertions, and you've got nuthin.  You've spent so many years being smug that you have forgotten how to use reason and logic.  You've spent so many years disengaged from the nitty gritty, it now frightens you to actually try and engage.  

The truth is I'm wide open.  I made a generalization about moderates, and generalizations can always be slashed open and disproven.  Yet you are not up to the task.  You've got your puffed up self.  Beyond your talent for self-congratulation, and for gratuitous dismissal of everyone else, you got nuthin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, that got just a liiiiitle bit ranty, but heck with it.  I'm not changing a word.

Beyond the fact that I openly provoked you, why else are you so pissed off?  

I'm clearly not the smartest, most educated, wisest, or anything like that, and I openly admit it.  Why are you so pissed?  

I suspect its b/c I have moral confidence, and most of you here do not.  You are not completely confident that truth exists.  Your are not completely confident that right and wrong exist.  You are not completely confident that good and evil exist.  In the face of your lack of confidence, when someone shows up with absolute confidence that truth and right and wrong and good and evil exist, you detest that person for being so cocksure.  

So, again, I'm not the smartest or the wisest or the most educated.  But I do have moral confidence, and that has a lot to do with why you are so pissed off.

You've been taught, more or less, that truth is just an opinion, good and evil are superstition, right and wrong are fantasy.  

I encourage you to take a closer look, and to think for yourself.  Do not unconsciously absorb the manure which is floating all about the atmosphere.  Think for yourself!  Use your own reason!  Constantly ask yourself:  Is this true or false?  Right or wrong?  Good or evil?  

Some on this blog do that already.  JBIMaknee, and AB03, amongst others, have caught me in logical or philosophical inconsistencies.  They called me on, pointed out where I was being illogical or inconsistent, and in so doing they did me huge favors.  I am glad to know such things, so I can change my opinions, and amend places where I have made inconsistent arguments.  I commend these guys.  They asked themselves:  true or false?  right or wrong? consistent or inconsistent?  If they are self described "moderates", at least they are moderates who delve into the nitty gritty of truth, and into the nitty gritty of issues.

You, Athos, have so far only puffed yourself up with self-righteousness.  I invite into the conversation of ideas and logic.  I am obviously not the smartest person who ever fingered a keyboard.   You might fare very well, if you engaged something besides your self-righteousness.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow. You just can't help yourself.
After that crap you're accusing ME of being self righteous?  Your whole post can be boiled down to a spurious claim of taking the high road while being unfairly attacked.  Sounds kind of self righteous, I'm sure you will agree.

And where did you come up with the notion that being moderate means wanting to "split the baby" on every issue?  Most moderates are conservative on some issues and liberal on others.  What makes them moderate is that they don't adhere to one side's mantra from top to bottom.  They tend to take positions based more upon personal discretion rather than the dictates of certain party leadership.  What you seem to be ranting against is compromise, which is, like it or not, practiced by liberals, conservatives, and moderates alike.  If it wasn't, nothing would ever be accomplished.

But then again, your initial novella had little to do with the issues and more to do with proclaiming your own intellectual superiority and an elite sense of your own moral correctness.  Now, I certainly could have simply commented that you were an arrogant jackass and left it at that.  And frankly, given that your posts are rapidly deteriorating into parodies of themselves, I probably should have.  But I'm foolish like that sometimes and cannot resist feeding the fool.

Now, by all means, please give us another post that is ridiculously lengthy wherein you comically exhibit the very behavior you attempt to attribute to myself or others.  I irony is simply delightful.

by Athos on Mar 4, 2008 6:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Athos
Well, we are both moving towards simply shouting "jackass" at the other.  You still haven't taken up the mantle of reason or logic in any way.  You are strictly calling me names, and are blind to your lack of substance, and are relying on your ability to call me names better than I can call you names:  You are!  No, you are!  No, you are!  We are getting ridiculous, but I hold out hope that you are slightly more ridiculous than I(heh).

It's possible we had a misunderstanding from the beginning.  In my definition, "moderate" describes someone who wants to compromise on most every issue, and really doesn't even study the issue so much as they study where is the midpoint between the liberal and the conservative position on the issue.  In my experience, someone who is "liberal on some issues and conservative on some issues" describes themselves exactly that way.  They do not describe themselves as moderate.  So, maybe we misunderstood each other from the beginning.

IMO, your (and others) assertions that I "adhere to one side's mantra" and "follow party leadership" are quite ridiculous.  Your assertions are a method of dismissing me without logically engaging any issue.  This habit of yours will, over time, dull your sharpness.  I suspect it has dulled you already.  If my opinions are so ridiculous, a sharp person ought be able to dismiss them - via logic - almost as easily as you dully attempt to dismiss them via calling me names, et al.

Now, you said my original comment did not cover issues.  I think I've tried, for the most part, to stay on issues.

I oringinally wrote this:

Limbaugh delivers info which is unavailable in MSM.

Limbaugh is an entertainer.

Limbaugh's audience is wealthier and more educated than the average radio audience.

Moderates (by which I meant compromisers) mostly substitute smug for understanding of issues.  I have less respect for moderates than for lefties.

Leftists generally do not understand both sides of issues.

You replied:  I could give two shits about anyone who listens to Limbaugh.

I wrote:  you are not using any logic or reason.

You replied:  Huck is an arrogant elitist.  Why should anyone here care what Huck thinks about them?  You threw in some final mischaracterization of my words.BTW, I agree with you about this:  No one should care what I think about them.  I would prefer to concentrate on issues and ideas.  Maybe I ought never have mentioned "respect" in my original post.

I ranted:  moderates do not understand issues.  Athos is calling names and not utilizing logic or reason about anything.  I am accused of being an arrogant jackass in large part because I believe truth exists, and I'm willing to plainly say so.

You replied as above.

I've tried to closely read what commenters have written, and reply to their substantive assertions.  That's a big job.  You guys throw out a lot of assertions(as do I).  I disagree that I have avoided substance.  On the contrary, I've tried very, very hard to address substance.

Now, if you'll excuse me for a bit, I've got to zip down the street and caucus for Hillary Clinton.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 6:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re: self-backpattery
and they wildly pat themselves on the back for being so wise and humanitarian."

Can you point out a post of yours that hasn't digressed into Huck lovin him some Huck? You've damn near broken your arm patting yourself on the back. Hypocrite.

Do you talk to people like this all the time? I can scarcely imagine how insufferable you are around the water cooler.

Good God, man, just present your arguments. Nobody gives a damn about the pompous window dressing you feel so compelled to insert in every little manifesto you deign to have to dumb down for the mere misguided mortals. I bet even the people who agree with you find you obnoxiously smug and condescending.

And one other thing. Athos? He's a trial lawyer. So I'd say it's a safe bet he isn't "likely incapable of winning anyone over to agree with" his (lack of) reasoning.  

Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.

by Brian Thomas on Mar 4, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Thomas
I'll take your comments under advisement.  And Athos, if he's got it, hasn't shown me any regard for logic and reason.  If and when he does, I will gain some respect for him.  
Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Please don't gain any respect for me.
If you did, I would have to seriously consider that I had become the exact kind of arrogant jackass that I have often taken such delight in baiting.

by Athos on Mar 4, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Athos
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
This is a grade school name calling contest, and this your preferred ground.

I say:  Who baited whom?  I wrote the original comment that baited you!

You: I baited you!

Me: I baited you!

This is your thing.  This is the only ground you want to stand on.  I say:  Athos is devoid of substance. You reply by being devoid of substance: Huck is an arrogant Jackass.  

Can you seen no irony?  Can you see yourself at all?

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 9:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I love
Limbaugh and Hannity, but especially Mark Levin and Hugh Hewitt. They fight the power that is the MSM and help people realize that the post-modernists are brainwashing Americans.

Post-modernists = downfall of America.

"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 8:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Don't you think
That boiling everything and everyone you disagree with down to simple labels like "MSM" and "post-modernists" is much more likely to cause the downfall of America?  That doesn't even address the fact that it makes you sound like a dunce.  

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 8:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
Why would descriptive labels cause the downfall of America?  I disagree that "MSM" and "post-modernist" equate to slurs.  To me, they describe informal groups of people who act on certain beliefs.

But, suppose we grant that "MSM" and "post-modernist" are slurs.  Is it your contention that polarization of Americans into contentious groups is the true danger we face(?), and is the factor  which will ultimately cause our nation to become mediocre, and to fall?

If this is your contention, could you elaborate a bit, for my feeble understanding?

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 8:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For one
They're not descriptive labels.  In fact, they're the vaguest things I've ever read.  You misunderstand if you think I'm equating your little vocabulary to slurs--I think they're dangerous because you marginalize and demonize anyone who disagrees with you, to the point of groupthink.  It sounds like fascism to me.  Or postmodernromantic-fascism, if you please.

It's silly to suggest that one must be a dogged adherent to an ideology somebody else spelled out for you in order to be politically relevant or informed.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 9:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

postmodernromantic-fascism
I love that!  I will be stealing that.  Nice.

To the rest:

You are lying if you say you do not understand the descriptive term:  "Mainstream Media."

"Post-modernist" is more niche.  It might more fairly be described as vague.  He was using it to describe the creeping government control, since about WWII, of more and more aspects of everyone's lives.  You could look to socialized European governments to see good examples of this.  Post-modernism also refers to the rejection of traditional religions/ philosophy/ principals/ values/ codes of behavior.  When William F. Buckley famously said he was standing athwart history and shouting "Stop!", he was alluding to the stopping of Post-modernist philosophical and government trends.

I note your point that I believe those who do not agree with me are uninformed.  You are absolutely correct!  I almost always think that - if only they were a bit better informed, then they would naturally agree with my brilliant take on an issue!  I almost always attribute their wrong opinions to ignorance.  Yet, I really see no alternative.  If I did not attribute your wrong opinions to ignorance, I would likely need to attribute it to malice.  Considering you ignorant seems much more generous.

Cordially,
Huck

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 9:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You
Honestly can't see that two rational people could come to opposing, valid conclusions?  I feel sorry for you if that's the case.  Malice and ignorance are the only options when disagreeing with your ideology?  Sounds great.  Would that I could call you ignorant, but you seem to be proud that you process and then filter out any and all information your doctrine dictates.  That sounds more like stupidity to me.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
oh c'mon!  I obviously think two intelligent people can disagree.  Yet, they can't both be right.  One of two is ignorant of why the other person is most correct or most right.

Sometimes it is said:  we are both right; they are both right.  As far as I can tell, in these situations the two persons were talking about two different issues, even as they believed they were talking about the same issue.  Therefore, Person A is truly correct about Issue AA, and Person B is truly correct about Issue BB.  If Person B proposed BB as a solution for Issue AA, then Person B would no longer be correct.  Person B would now be in the wrong.

Anyway, if you have a different understanding, please inform.  I may not fully understand all the possibilities.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
Logically, I suppose your conclusion follows, but I don't agree with the premise.  You could take a myriad of issues--abortion, universal health care, high-bracket tax-cuts, etc.--and there are divergent opinions.  Let's use abortion for an example.

Some are opposed because they believe life starts at conception; similarly, some are in favor of regulated rights because they don't believe life starts until viability.  There's no "right" answer.  They are both based upon unverifiable beliefs.

Similarly, some want states to determine their own abortion regulations and some believe a right to privacy is implicit in the due process clause of the Constitution.  You can't say that either of these are "right", either--they're both founded upon unverifiable beliefs as well.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 9:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

red herring much?
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 10:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry
I posted that in the wrong place.
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 10:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

there
is an absolute right and wrong, it is not relative. Truth is truth.
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 10:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan Hunter
for president.
Milton Bradley + Frankie Francisco = team chemistry

by miles on Mar 3, 2008 10:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
Not Dirk Nowitski's finest fourth quarter tonight.

You know, abortion is an excellent example to bring up.  I agree abortion is an instance where there is no logically certain answer.  

I hate hate to quibble, b/c abortion is such an interesting issue to consider in this instance, but:  there is a "right" answer.  One of us: either me or the person who is pro-choice, is spiritually ignorant.  When we die, we will find which.

I so want to fully agree with you in in this instance.  The problem is I believe we sense - in very small and very vague and mostly uninterpretable ways - spiritual truth.  I believe I sense spiritual truth that abortion is murder.  It must seem like a dirty trick for me to reference this, but it is my spiritual belief.  I kind of want this to be an instance where both persons can be right.  I just do not believe it completely is.  It partially is, as there is no logically certain answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
States rights vs. right to privacy

Which is most in line with our Constitution?  

We cannot know the answer to an absolute certainty, as we are only fallible men, and not  infallible Gods.  (On the spiritual level, I don't believe God will be sending any spiritual opinions on this Constitutional issue.  This is a "render unto Caesar" question!)

However, don't you believe the language of the Constitution points us towards a logically right  choice in this instance?  That choice need be debated and mulled over and kicked back and forth - yet it exists.

The Constitution was designed to point us towards solutions.  If it never points us towards solutions, it is a useless document.  If we can only find a best answer in instances where we have infallible, absolutely certainty - then we can never find a best answer to anything, b/c we can only be absolutely certain that we will all die.

I believe the Constitution points us towards a states rights solution in this instance.  I believe those who disagree are simply ignorant of Constitutional provisions.  I believe, if they have an open mind, I can educate them so that they will understand.  

If they educate me in the opposite direction - then:  good!  I've learned something I did not know before.  I'm less ignorant than I was.  However, until they educate me in an opposite direction, I believe they are ignorant of Constitutional provision in this area.

Now: maybe "ignorant" is unnecessarily provocative.  Maybe I ought to say:  they are not fully informed.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 11:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

states rights
ok separate what states rights as a principle itself (something i firmly support) and look at the general beliefs and political positions states rights has represented throughout its history.  if you look at the positions that states rights has been on and look at it not from any political agenda, but simply historical political positions, generally states right have been a position of restricting some group of peoples' civil liberties.
whether its gay marriage, abortion, poll tax, segregation, reconstruction, slavery... its always been a code word for restriction on right of others generally in the minority as a political power.
.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 11:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Jayslick
sigh.  

What can I call it, other than States Rights, so I will not be implying prejudice?

PC is so incredibly tiresome - and such a ridiculous joke.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 12:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

look
 i took some history classes in north carolina, and i deeply understand the history of states rights.  youll notice one thing.  this is a fact.  just about all the outcry about states right and big government overstepping its bounds is based on the concept from the civil war.  thats its history.  originally states rights was a cry of the democratic party in the deep south.  "radical" republicans were the purveyors of the reconstruction.

 States Rights was the main vehicle through which the south weakened the 14th and 15th amendments.  "Plessy v. Ferguson was based on states rights to segregate, backing the civil rights cases of 1883 which ruled  that Congress lacked the constitutional authority under the enforcement provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment to outlaw racial discrimination by private individuals and organizations, rather than state and local governments.  Some modern courts up to and including the U.S. Supreme Court still interpret the Civil Rights Cases as limiting the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment. When Truman desegregated the army and supported a civil rights bill.  the reaction was a split in the Democratic Party that led to the formation of the "States' Rights Party", better known as the Dixiecrats, led by Strom Thurmond. Thurmond ran as the States' Rights candidate for President in 1948, losing to Truman.  Brown v. Board of Education (1954) overruled the Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) decision, but the Fourteenth and Fifteenth amendments were largely inactive in the South until the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 USC 21) and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Several states passed Interposition Resolutions to declare that the Supreme Court's ruling in Brown usurped state's rights.   In 1964, the issue of fair housing in California involved the boundary between state laws and federalism. California Proposition 14 overturned the Rumsford Fair Housing Act and allowed discrimination of any type on home sales. Martin Luther King and others saw this as a backlash against civil rights. Actor Ronald Reagan gained popularity by supporting Proposition 14, and was later elected governor of California.[3] The U.S. Supreme Court's Reitman Vs. Mulkey decision overturned Proposition 14 in 1967 in favor of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment."

I can go on talking about conservative supreme courts ruling in favor of states over discrimination of elderly by states, ruling in favor of states to prevent rape victims from suing their attackers in federal courts. states have also been favored in cases about gun control (good thing) as well as hate crimes. Seminole Tribe v. Florida (1996)  makes it difficult to sue states for many things, especially civil rights violations.

when it got into the depth of cases i did use sources and here is my silly wiki source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_rights#Since_1865

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 4, 2008 2:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Jayslick
Thats all fine, and enlightening, and is truly  interesting discussion, imo.  I'm geeky enough to like that stuff.  I concur with much of your comment.

But, you know what I am talking about.  Here is the very first sentence of your own Wikipedia link:

States' rights refers to the idea, in U.S. politics and constitutional law, that U.S. states possess certain rights and political powers in relation to the federal government.  

Now, what do you want me to call that, so I will  not offend PC sensibilities or accidentally speak in negative code?
Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 2:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I could argue all day about the complexities of the Constitution with regard to original understanding, original public understanding, the historical background of "due process" and a thousand others areas.  The point remains: there are some who believe there is a substantive element to due process and some who believe the Constitution should be read either as it would have been read in the 18th century or as it would be read in the 21st.  There's no right answer, and, with all due respect, your spirituality argument carries no authority in this argument, because it too is based on an unverifiable belief, even if it is closely-held by you.

I don't agree that there's any spiritual truth guiding us here.  Murder is, all things being equal, anathema to the continuation of the species.  We learn not to murder because we fear it ourselves.  There's no such thing as innate morality.  You wouldn't have your sense of spiritual truth unless you were taught it.

I say be sincere in your purpose, and pursue it vigorously, but how can we ever learn if we don't allow ourselves doubt?  I'm sure there are many here who disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I necessarily believe they're wrong to deny my premises.  It's part of growth.

by brettgardner on Mar 3, 2008 11:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
It seems you believe I, and other conservatives,  are not open-minded enough to give full consideration to the opinions of those who do not share our exact opinions on various subjects.

I am sorry you feel this way.  As I cannot prove a negative, I cannot prove that my mind is not closed down to the opinions of others.

You might let this marinate in your mind, as a gracious favor to me:

Are we really closed down to the opinions of others?   Or, are we merely accused by those whose opinions failed to prevail in the debates?

Who, exactly, is closed down to the opinions of others?

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 12:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No
You've misunderstood.  I was most certainly not talking about conservatism, just about you and your views.

by brettgardner on Mar 4, 2008 8:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
LOL

Thanks for clearing that up!

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if you died
and you found there is no afterlife, I would hope that doesn't answer your question on whether abortion is wrong.

but, it amazes me that you actually think that once you die, you're going to find out whether you're right or wrong and you can't actually find a right or wrong while you live.  if you really think that way, don't be surprised if the jews, jehova's witnesses, or mormons are right.  they seem much more sure of themselves

by ab03 on Mar 4, 2008 8:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

abo3
You got me there.  As I wrote "we'll find out when we die", I knew I was contradicting my own spiritual belief(which I consider truth), yet I went ahead and let the sentence stay in the comment.  I just didn't know a better way to communicate what I was trying to get across - and I still don't, actually.  I'll have to think about this, so I can do better in the future.  Jayslick completely misinterpreted what I was trying to say about spirituality - and that's my fault, not his.  If I had said it more clearly, he would've understood it better. I'm not used to talking about my spiritual beliefs.  I think I should try to get better at it.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
also:  my lack of effectiveness at "talking about my spiritual beliefs" likely betrays shallow or poor thinking about my spiritual beliefs.  It's likely that I lack understanding in this area.  

Alliterative moment:  I am likely lacking!

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously?
Of course there are other options than ignorance and malice. It seems like you haven't really thought this thing through.

It comes down to principles. Two people can have different principles and desire different outcomes. For example, regarding the economy, one person desire equity in an economic system and sacrifice some level of efficiency in that economy. Another person can decide that efficiency and wealth creation is most important. For that person, equity doesn't matter much. They can both be intelligent, well-informed, well-intentioned individuals. It just comes down to their principles, desires, self-interest, upbrining, ethical orientation, religious beliefs, etc etc etc.

But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

trza
"Two people... desire different outcomes"

Do you mean one wants to be a teacher, and one wants to be a banker?  I don't understand.  These two people do not disagree about anything.

Regarding economic policy(? is that what you are talking about?).  There's only one optimal economic policy.  Probably all of us are ignorant of it to some extent.  Yet, some persons advocate economic policy which is closer to optimal.  Those persons are less ignorant than other persons.

Thanks for trying to share you point, but I don't understand what it is.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 12:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha
Well, when you find your One True Reaganonmics, please be sure to let us know.

by a bebop a rebop on Mar 4, 2008 7:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thats not right
apparently you're not familiar with skinning cats

by ab03 on Mar 4, 2008 8:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

a bebop and ab
You guys are not thinking as clearly as you could be.

There are obviously lots of economic policies which lead to success.  Yet, there is only one economic policy which is optimal.

trza was making one or both of these arguments(I couldn't tell which for sure):

1.  People can be wrong for reasons other than ignorance or malice.

(People probably can be wrong for reasons other than ignorance or malice, I just haven't currently thought of an example to prove it - nor has anyone else on this thread.  I would be interested to see a good example which provides another reason to be wrong.)

2. Two people can simultaneously be right.

trza used economic policy(as best I could tell) to justify his #1 and #2.  Yet economic policy doesn't justify his #1 or his #2, because only one economic policy can be optimal.

My argument is an optimal economic policy exists.  Some people have a closer idea of what that optimal economic policy is. Those persons are less ignorant than the rest.

You guys are arguing that #2 is correct in this instance.  I think your argument doesn't stand up.

However, I don't even like my own argument.  I was merely trying to point out where trza's(and your) argument was offbase.

Economics is an area where everyone is ignorant(to varying extents), as no one can predict the future.  This is why the market properly should "set economic policy", so to speak.  Let the wisdom of the wide and vast market set it's own prices.  All of us, together, comprising a nationwide or worldwide market, are wiser than any one smart person doing calculations in Washington, D.C.

 

Patience

by Huck on Mar 4, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
btw - I wouldn't have run off with the smart aleck back there.  I appreciated your explaining your thinking to me.  But, you could't help yourself from indulging in a bunch of snark - topping it off with "fascist" - so I really didn't see anything wrong with sending a little smart aleck back in your direction.

"Fascist" is so tiring.  And its disrespectful of millions who died at the hands of actual fascists.  And it's disrespectful the loving, grieving families of those millions.  I wish I were more proficient at explaining how dishonorable it is to throw around "Fascist" in the way you did.  I am certain, if I could explain it better, that you would use other snark in the future, and that you would abandon "Fascist."  

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 9:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Huck = yuck
EOM.
2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 3, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you just
accused me of using unnecessary words such as post-modern, and now you are calling people stupid. hmm...
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

brettgardner
oops!

I just reread your comment more carefully.  You are not saying your misunderstood "MSM", and therefore I unfairly accused you of lying.  I apologize!  Truly.  I am sorry for the mischaracterization.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 3, 2008 9:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

um
Do you even know what postmodernism is?
But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 8:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure...
a reaction on modernism!

by Agreen07 on Mar 3, 2008 9:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well
yeah.
But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 9:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the
belief that nothing can ever be fully known except that which has been definitively proved through science. We are striving towards nothing and don't know anything, so why criticize anything.

Post-modernists such as my friend brettgardner believe there can be no metanarratives made on life as a whole, yet they are making a metanarrative in saying that there are no metanarratives.

"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 3, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't that an oxymoron
that talk show hosts convinced you that another media forum has "brainwashed" their listening audience?
If there is one lawyer in town, he goes broke. If there are two, they both get rich

by Taylor on Mar 3, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, meant to say ironic, not oxymoron
If there is one lawyer in town, he goes broke. If there are two, they both get rich

by Taylor on Mar 4, 2008 4:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

talk radio
I'm completely with Chris on this issue. I can't can't see the appeal of any kind of talk radio, liberal or conservative. It's a passive medium that doesn't require much engagement or thought on the part of the listener. In fact, it's discouraged.

I (very) occasionally tune in and get a laugh by listening to Rush, but usually I can't deal with more than about 5 minutes of him. He is a good showman, but he never allows anyone to challenge his beliefs. He just pounds his POV into the heads of his listeners. It's a not very thoughtful presentation.

That's pretty much the case with Hannity, O'Reilly, Ingraham, all the rest from my experience. They all demonize the opposition, calling Democrats traitors and all that bullshit.

You can tell you are debating with a committed Rush listener because they get red-faced and angry when you discuss politics with them. They can't accept that people who disagree with them have anything but impure motives. On the rare occasion that they do have someone with a contrary opinion on the program, they basically just berate the person and call them an idiot. I have a friend who was a phone-in "guest" on Laura Ingraham's show. My buddy is an advocate on behalf of undocumented immigrants and he was trying in good faith to present the pro-immigrant point of view and explain some of the benefits that legal and illegal immigrants contribute to the economy, backed up with facts. Ingraham basically shouted him down and wouldn't let him explain his position. Independent thought is strictly prohibited, and I just can't see the appeal of it. Also, the freaking commercial break every 2 minutes also kills me.

At the risk of sounding like an ass:

Read a book!

But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 9:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm actually more of a fan of:
Glenn Beck and Dennis Miller.
Troy I.

by tdi1985 on Mar 3, 2008 9:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Glenn Beck
He was on Morning Edition the other morning arguing that the Republicans really should have nominated Rick Santorum in 2008. Apparently he was serious. I almost spit out my coffee.
But that river of tears has dried for all of us.

by trza on Mar 3, 2008 9:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Glen Beck
makes me want to take a drill to my ears.  His voice is just annoying.
"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 4, 2008 5:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Dennis Miller...
of course being the far left liberal scum that I am, I don't agree with him politically most of the time.

Glenn Beck on the other hand is a dipshit. I can't listen to him for more than 60 seconds without looking for something sharp to stab into my ears.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 4, 2008 1:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand it either
But you definitely hit the nail on the head with the Air America/liberal thing. I'm a left-leaning moderate, and damn, Air America is such a beating.

When I'm not listening to sports or music, it's NPR for me.

Adam J. Morris: everyone's favorite 100-year-old train conductor.

by ghtd36 on Mar 3, 2008 9:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

hat exactly don't you like
about Air America?
Troy I.

by tdi1985 on Mar 3, 2008 9:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

im lefty as hell
and air america is such a beating.  the only thing i hated more than some idiot ranting about everything i disagreed with was some idiot ranting about all the stuff i did agree with.

i thought it was disgusting.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 9:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Were you being
facetious earlier when you said you were voting for McCain?

Not sure because you're saying you're a leftist here...

At any rate, I was only curious why he said he couldn't listen to Air America, but he listens to NPR... the bore factor seems about the same to me.

Troy I.

by tdi1985 on Mar 3, 2008 9:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

read closely
i said John McClain!

he was great in Die Hard, Die Hard 2, Die Hard with a Vengeance and Live Free or Die Hard!

that man knows how to fight terrorists.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol, sorry....
not wearing my glasses.
Troy I.

by tdi1985 on Mar 3, 2008 10:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

NPR vs. AA
npr may have a bias, but they talk facts, they push facts over rhetoric.  it may be facts pointed to one side of an argument, although i tend to feel facts are facts no matter what side you are on.  AA spews rants and rhetoric.  when your talking about something like bush 43 and his policies, you dont need to use bs rhetoric. you can push 100% substance and fact and the need to skew facts to fit your argument is out the window, all the facts are there to support your argument.

both AA and 820 just push for the uneducated uninformed masses. if you have depth on any subject, it gets really frustrating no matter what perspective you come from.

Hillary reminds me of AA in the sense that AA uses republican tactics to push their liberal agenda.  Hillary is using Rove campaign strategies to push her campaign in a time when it is struggling.

these people (AA and hillary both) need to realize what has turned off americans and given Obama such a breath of fresh air in his campaign is his campaign isnt based on the negativity and all the things that have divided this nation over the last 16 years. its based on common dreams, common goals and common visions that appeal to the wide masses.  thats his attraction, and likewise her flaws and AA's flaws as well.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 3, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
Limbuaugh, et al are no different than the 24/7 liberal bias that permeates every major broadcast news networks sans fox, not even to mention virtually every major paper, etc.

It's just, people are so accustomed to the liberal bias in media. For example, this whole absolutely ridiculous Obama atrocity/blowjob fest isn't even really noticed for the total puppetry it is by the averager person.

Well, it's the same way CNN doesn't have a mainstream reputation for being liberal, even though it's twice as liberal as Fox is conservative. But of course Fox is constantly attacked and villified for daring to go against the grain a little bit.

by Sharky on Mar 4, 2008 4:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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