Mavs in trouble
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 9:43 PM CDT
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PrintThey started out the game on a 12-0 run.
Since then, they've been outscored by the Warriors, 69-44.
This team isn't making the playoffs.
It is now an old, not real good, expensive team.
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Lottery
is the best thing that could happen to the Mavs. Don't rush back Dirk, pick a solid player in the lottery, and come back strong next year with a new coach. Perfect.
the truth.
Didn't they trade that pick to NJ?
" Winning doesn't always mean being first,
winning means you are doing better than you have done before"
It's lottery protected.
Hope there's an athletic SG there when we pick.
Stephen Curry is too small
and not quick enough to be effective at this level. Just can't see him creating his own shot, and he'll get absolutely abused by other teams 2-guards.
And if you're hoping Brandon Rush is gonna be our savior, well I just don't know what to tell you.
Barring a lottery miracle or an OJ Mayo free fall to the low teens, the Mavs aren't going to get anything in this draft that's going to significantly help them during their existing Kidd/Dirk/Howard "window".
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Mar 30, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
OJ Mayo...
looking at some of the mock draft, he could fall to 10 or 11, I don't know what our pick would be yet..
But that would be a steal.
Milton Bradley for MVP
Mario Chalmers
Excellent D, good 3-pt shooting.
by GhettoBear04 on Mar 31, 2008 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions
They'll be picking 12-14
I'm not sure what the chances are of getting a solid contributor there.
And this team will be a year older, in a conference where teams are getting better. They've got no tradeable assets other than Dirk and Howard, and only the mid-level exception to offer.
They'll miss the playoffs next year, too.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fine
you'll get a solid player at that range, this upcoming draft (if the frosh do indeed come out early) is going to be very strong. Plus, who knows, that's why the NBA has the lottery, Mavs could get lucky and get a top 10 pick (Paul Pierce comes to mind). A full year with Kidd, Dirk, Howard, and the number 1, I wouldn't bet on them missing the playoffs next year.
the truth.
Actually
Look at the Mavs long-term payroll versus practically any other team in the league. If they suffer, it won't be for long.
by brettgardner on Mar 30, 2008 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yah
This gets mentioned later in comments, but Kidd's expiring contract is tradeable.
Can't that be dealt for a pick? I realize if not it would probably only get you some other team's big contracts.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Mar 30, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
It won't be 12-14.
It will BE 14, unless they win one of the top three picks.
If they're not on pace to do well next season then they unload Kidd's expiring contract. They're not in that bad a shape.
Mavs going down
Like a cheap whore.
"My death certificate will probably say: 'Cause of Death: World Series.'" Jamey Newberg
That crash you heard when Dirk
went down was the Mavs window of opportunity. It is now closed. Cuban, time to blow it up.
I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby
kind of disingenuous
using this game to say anything about the mavs when they are without stackhouse and dirk.
Well
The Mavs are about to be 0-10 since the Jason Kidd trade against winning teams, and appear likely to miss the playoffs.
My comment was more a comment on the team in general. They are screwed. It is an old, expensive team that isn't going to make the playoffs, and isn't getting any better anytime in the next few years.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
still think you are wrong
about making the playoffs. there are enough games out there that they can win
Won't they have.....
$20MM to spend when Kidd is gone?
Nope
Cause they'll still be over the cap.
But they could try to trade his expiring contract for a disgruntled vet or an overpaid pseudo-star (a la the Lakers with Pau Gasol).
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Mar 30, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
So what did Mike Fischer mean by this....
The Mavericks … mortgaged everything for Jason Kidd. Why do otherwise bright basketball watchers like Bill continue to write this? Dallas "mortgaged’’ Devin Harris and maybe ‘Gana Diop. They did so to get two (or more) seasons out of Jason Kidd. And when Kidd leaves, Mavs owner Mark Cuban will have a $20-million vacancy that he will likely fill with a $20-million superstar.
Check this out
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm
We'll still be over the cap when Kidd's contract expires. The only way we'll have another $20 million man is through another trade.
by brettgardner on Mar 30, 2008 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really plausible
When Kidd leaves, the Mavs will still have about 57mil committed to five players. If you count the other ten guys on the roster at 1mil a piece (which is a conservative count, imo), you have a 67mil team. No way they raise the cap that much in two years. No freaking way.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Mar 31, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I still....
don't know what Mike Fischer mean't though.
Who's Mike Fischer?
My guess is that he either doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to the NBA salary cap, or he's talking about a trade.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Mar 31, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Writer for Dallasbasketball.com
If you're a Mavs fan you're missing out by not reading that site. He's a moron when it comes to baseball, but between him and David Lord on that site, they don't miss a beat on the Mavs. He even has some good stuff on the Cowboys too.
by slimshadty12 on Mar 31, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
and really the question is
would they have been getting better enough to be championship contenders. the answer to my question is definitely no.
the only real gripe you can have with this trade is if you thought the mavs were better with harris this year then without. you have enough ammo to make that case.
i just htink the problem is these mavs have lost too many heartbreakers and they just choke in pressure situations. when that happens, you have to get rid of the coach. i wouldn't have agreed with firing him last year but after seeing how the team reacts to big games, especially with the pressure mounting, it's a must
Maybe
But I think this team just has an overall lack of talent. Westphal's not going to fix that.
by brettgardner on Mar 30, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't know
But I'd feel better about their chances with Devin and Diop still here.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Devin
doesn't make players around him better....
You make him out to be a superstar, which he is nothing close to...
Milton Bradley for MVP
well, to be fair
Josh Howard just started sucking when Kidd came around for some reason, but now, somehow he found his shot after Dirk is gone...i confused.
eh, fire Avery.
the truth.
he found his shot right before that
but the real issue is that once kidd got here, there was no offensive game plan. a mix of iso's and fast breaks and when it came down to the 4th quarter, people had no idea what to run.
This is
frustratingly true. Their plays after a timeout seem like they are being drawn up with crayons.
by GhettoBear04 on Mar 31, 2008 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions
you know the
NC State/Houston game (last second unintentional alley oop/Jimmy V hug)? the start of that play reminds me of the mavs offense. everybody is standing around, whoever gets the ball has no idea what to do with it, and the end is just a guy desperately throwing up a shot (hopefully - mavs possessions usually end in turnovers).
No, I don't
You make him out to be a superstar, which he is nothing close to...
No, I don't make him out to be a superstar. I make him out to be a solid young PG who has a future in this league.
I don't know why you think that saying over and over and over and over again that I think Devin is a superstar will somehow break me down and get me to agree with you.
I never said Devin was a superstar.
I did say, though, that Kidd wasn't anymore, that he wasn't a good fit for the team, and that this trade wasn't going to make this team better.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
i think
avery has more to do with that than kidd. kidd does make this team better on defense and you can definitely see how he could help this team on offense. however, he seems somewhat under utilized in the current offensive scheme.
hard to see how any PG would be able to play well with this offense
I don't see
him as a finisher. He relies on the J a little too much. I'd take him if he's there though.
Does Jason Kidd make players around him better?
He hasn't since he got here.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at Dirks numbers....
much better. I feel like you're just angry and bitter about this and throwing shit against the wall.
If he makes everyone better...
...then why is the team worse since he got here?
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Avery?
What's the difference between Avery pre-trade, and Avery post-trade, that has made the team worse?
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
post trade
the mavericks really hit a stretch of really important games and avery essentially choked.
i will say that kidd doesn't get the points that harris was getting so its not enough that scoring averages go up around him, they have to go up a significant amount.
but, i think its obvious that kidd could make this team a lot better but then when avery starts calling every play at the end of the game, his hands are tied
Okay
Let's say Avery gets fired this offseason, Paul Westphal takes his place.
Do you think this team is a championship contender in 2008-09?
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
If Kidd has total control of the offense then yes...
Despite the fact that we are 0-10 with Kidd against .500+ teams, if you actually watched the games (you probably did) you'd see that we stuck with all the best teams and a couple different bounces and we could have won half of those. Most of them were lost in the last few min which falls on Avery because he has made numerous bone headed decisions.
by slimshadty12 on Mar 31, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Did he know how to use Devin?
I don't get it. Avery agitated for this deal because he felt Devin couldn't run his offense, and Kidd could.
And now the team is worse, and it is because he doesn't know how to use Kidd?
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
like i said
devin could at least provide offense. if nothing else, he could dribble penetrate and score. with kidd, he has to create shots for people. problem is that if kidd can't run the offense, his game is completely gone. he can rely on nothing.
and this team wasn't getting blown out of those games against good teams - always came down to teh last possession. and avery calls the plays at that point
To be fair Damp
is/ or at least was extremely ineffective last year against run and gun teams. The only thing that was not defensible was that Bass didn't get more min. He is a beast against weak interior teams and single-handedly kept us in the game in the 3rd and 4th. Although, I'd like to have seen us defend the perimeter better and funneled the drivers into Damp to see how he'd handle it. He does seem like a changed man.
by slimshadty12 on Mar 31, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
You could take into consideration
That the team just isn't that good, and wasn't even before the deal, despite the record.
by brettgardner on Mar 30, 2008 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
The team...
...was in the NBA finals 2 years ago, and won 67 games last year.
They had some very good pieces in place.
Now, they have Dirk, Josh, and a bunch of fossils.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Dirk, Josh, Harris, Diop...
...and 2 #1s.
(Cue the inevitable "those #1s are worthless, they'd have been Mo Agers")...
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions
To be fair
There's no way we were re-signing Diop after this year.
I'm not sure about that
And if we didn't, there was still the possibility of using him in a piece in a sign-and-trade.
At this point, there's no one on the roster who is a viable trade piece (unless you are willing to part with Dirk or Josh).
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions
diop
sign and trade. so next year he would have had more value than as part of a deal for a superstar?
i really don't see how we were re-signing diop. he was averaging like 11 min. a game near the end
No
But I don't get your premise -- that either you acquire a superstar, or any move is pointless.
Just like miles' dumb comments about Diop...of course he's a role player. So is Brandon Bass. Those are guys who can be useful role players.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
so you envision a scenario
where the mavs could have traded their crappy role player for a good role player? that's interesting.
when was the last time a sign and trade in the nba worked out?
I envision a scenario...
...where he could be part of a deal.
Or, more likely, that he would be brought back as a role player.
Obviously, none of that can happen now. The Mavs have only 6 or 7 guys under contract for next season, and they all have huge deals.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Adam
While I disagree with some of your points regarding the Mavs and this trade, most of them at least have merit.
But you need to get off this Diop thing. He had been relegated to the third string center this season, he wasn't going to resign with us, and he's not getting much playing time in New Jersey.
Diop is an average backup center who will get a small contract somewhere else in the NBA next season. Plesae, remove Diop from your argument, and it will make a whole lot more sense.
Well
Kidd will have value next year. If we completely tank, I'm sure a team like Cleveland will make a push for him to placate Lebron who they A. Want to try to keep, and B. Has been salivating over Kidd for years now.
diop
cue the diop sucks. oh wait, you're supposed to say that.
honestly, if the mavs had lost in the second round of the playoffs, would you have thought "the mavs are in good position, they jsut need to draft someone good with the #1 and they are back in this thing"?
Lol...
Now your talking like Diop is a piece to a main puzzle.
He is a backup role player..
He isn't that good, no offensive game.
Milton Bradley for MVP
You know what is lol?
All that shit you were talking about how great the Mavs would be once they had Kidd.
That's pretty Lol.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
He also....
called me an idiot for saying that the mavs lottery protected the right pick. He, or someone else was complaining that the later pick should have been protected.
Still think so...
The pick that year will be higher than the one this year.
If I had a choice to protect, I would have protected the 2010 one.
Milton Bradley for MVP
2010
No one has any clue what this team will look like then.
Exactly...
We won't have kidd, players will be older.
So that tells me this team will be in rebuilding mode...
So that means higher pick...
Milton Bradley for MVP
So you think.....
that they will be one of the 7-8 worst teams in the NBA at that point? With Dirk still? Really? Because that is the only way the number of balls will really help their chances in getting a top pick or getting an impact player in a deep draft.
In other words you take your chances in 2010 since you have no idea what the team will do then and keep your lottery chance this year.
They
will be without Kidd, our second best player. Dirk will be out of his prime presumably...
So our team will be alot worse that year...
This year, we have about a 1 percent chance or less of getting the number 1 pick...
Will be be bottom 7 teams in the NBA that year? I would think so...
Milton Bradley for MVP
Let's just agree...
to disagree here. I think they'll still be a playoff team.
And...they may still have Kidd in 2010. That may or may not be a good thing.
Ive heard
alot of people saying that next year is the year to go for it...
That way all the players will be used to each other.
Milton Bradley for MVP
How do we go for it?
We're maxed out in terms of cap space. If we were to go for it, we'd have to either make a crazy trade (we don't have the pieces or the picks), or Cuban would have to eat an insane luxury tax going after someone like Maggette.
If we had
Dirk, Josh, DJ and next year's first round pick, and a bunch of fossils would you be happy?
the truth.
Not really
But I'm not sure how we could end up with that group. If the Mavs make the lottery in 2008, the Nets get their 2009 pick.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty confident that the.....
West won't be this tight next year and with a full off season to work with Kidd this is still a playoff team in 2009. In fact I'll wager if you like.
okay
and a 1st round pick in 2 years. Just the minus 1 1st round pick from your combination.
the truth.
they gave up that first round pick too
if the mavs get to select in 2008, then they don't have a 2009 or 2010 pick.
No
It's either 2008 and 2010 or 2009 and 2011 I believe.
Either way, we're giving up 2 first rounders.
No
It was 2008 and 2010.
If the 2008 pick is in the lottery, it is 2009 and 2010.
You can't give up 1st rounders back to back unequivocally, but if one of the picks is lottery protected so the pick is bumped back a year, then you can lose back to back picks.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't count Diop..
1. He was already in Avery's doghouse for some reason.
2. He was overrated after a surprise good first year with the Mavs. He wasn't nearly as effective this year.
3. It allowed Damp to get more min and unleash the beast. No way Damp gets the min that's made him effective with Kidd with Diop still on the team.
4. He's a free agent.
by slimshadty12 on Mar 31, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
They
Were/are talented at certain positions. Two years ago they were a ridiculous no-call from being eliminated in the second round.
They're not horrible, and they weren't, but they're just not good enough.
by brettgardner on Mar 30, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I will say...
...I am angry and bitter about this...
This was a team I thought still had an opportunity to do something great in the next few years.
Now, Cuban has given Avery almost complete control, and what we have is an old team that isn't playing well, that doesn't look like it is going to be able to be a legit championship contender, and that has nothing to rebuild with.
So yeah, I am angry and bitter about this. I think Avery has destroyed this team.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
complete control
probably not going to last too much longer anyway.
people bitch about owners getting too involved. certainly, it shouldn't' be a bad thing when you give your coach a lot of power, at least in basketball. it backfired, and he'll soon be gone.
maybe there's something to being old
Look at what the San Antonio Fossils have been able to do.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
diop
give it up, he's not good. but i guess i should get you to stop talking about the marquis daniels "loss."
Diop
He's a nice role-player. He would have been a good guy to bring back.
He's a better backup big man than Malik Allen or Juwan Howard, that's for sure.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 30, 2008 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Second Guessing?
Are you second-guessing this trade after-the-fact? It made sense when it was done.
The GM knows what he's doing, and I don't think it's nice to criticize him.
JD is the greatest GM ever! (Friends now?)
Adam's hated the trade from the start.
Don't be a dimwit.
by a bebop a rebop on Mar 31, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The deal
Shouldn't have included the second pick.
Of course, I'd have rather seen Harris or Howard dealt for a SG, but that's beside the point now I suppose.
Trading
J-Ho for Marion in the offseason would make this team so much better. Marion knows how to run with Kidd because he has showed that he has excelled with him before. This would also get us a better defensive presence for this team.
And then if we start playing Antion Wright, this team will be alot better...
He is our future..
Milton Bradley for MVP
I guess
you don't watch the games... He has done nothing but earn the starting 2 guard spot. What is his competition?
Milton Bradley for MVP
And Adam...
I told you Antione Wright was a beast... You didn't believe me but I think even you can attest to that...
Milton Bradley for MVP
Wright since with Dallas...
.571 three point percentage...
55 percent FG percentage...
80 percent free throw percentage...
100 percent beastliness....
And people say we got no youth back in the trade???
Wright is younger than Harris.... Big upside, and Avery doesn't play him... Typical...
Milton Bradley for MVP
Double Standard
The criteria for basketbal...and football and hockey...seems to be different than baseball around here.
Follow the Hicks-Pattern, Avery and Donnie should get five-year extensions to implement a rebuilding plan.
Same for Wade Phillips, Tippett, and Hull.
Heck, give them ten year extensions.
After all, they have all been to playoffs lately.
JD is the greatest GM ever! (Friends now?)
The Mavericks
have very quickly moved from front-page news to irrelevant.
This squad WILL miss the playoffs. Book it.
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