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OT: Iowa Congressman says Radical Islam will dance in the streets

"Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, speaking to a local Iowa radio station, said that terrorists would dance in the streets if Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, is elected president -- precisely because of not only Obama's position on withdrawing US troops from Iraq, but because Obama's middle name is "Hussein," his father's Muslim roots, and his appearance -- or "optics," as King put it."

His "appearance." In other words, he be a darky.

The audio:

http://www.radioiowa.com/podcast/feed/A6AFFF9D-C09F-1E1C-6BE13276F8998390/article/8EF58000-A398-BDDA -F45FB09147E7FDF8/audio/8EF580F9-9F7F-50C4-D14E96F96A22BA60/KingOnKICD.mp3

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003722255

Ugh. This fear mongering crap has gotten so damn tiresome. And it simply blows my mind that elected leaders can pass off racist rhetoric like this as legitimate discourse. Some other links:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/08/gop-congressman-says-terrorists-would-celebrate-obam a-win/

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/republican-cong.html

A good example of the disgusting morons that help promote this myth is found in the comments of this link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1982410/posts (note the picture)

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Am I the only person
Who can only conjure to mind Mike Rhyner's "black people" drop when race is being discussed nowadays?

by jamcadbury on Mar 8, 2008 9:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

hmm
i wonder if its a bad thing that the KKK would rejoice if McCain won over Obama.

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 9:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The KKK
is a non-factor nowadays......
Islamic extremists are a very real threat right now, and I am fairly certain that they would be pleased if we had a Barack Obama presidency.
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 8, 2008 9:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the stupidiest...
thing I've ever heard you say dstar. How many of these "extremists" do you know or talk to? You realize there is no war on "extremists" right? Just like there can't be a war on "terror" or "drugs". You can't fight a war on a ideology. The war is against Al Queda, or should be anyway.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 8, 2008 10:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

containment
"LBrooks passes away... after the 'miracle' Rangers of '08 win the AL West." -slc ranger

by dstar442005 on Mar 8, 2008 11:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He's from Iowa
What does he know about black people?

by Chris Martin on Mar 8, 2008 9:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He's possibly shooting for re-election
I lived in Iowa 10 years.  Some good things to be said for it, but it's true the people there are both grossly unaware of diversity and (IMEO) grossly more prejudiced than in the southern states.  And the beauty is, they are not aware of that, and believe that natural differences are a basis for natural disassociation.  

That's painting with the broadest of brushes, certainly not true of all individuals, but net/net was a fact 1965-1975.  Maybe things have picked up there, maybe not.

'At Georgia Southern, we don't cheat. That costs money and we don't have any.' Erk Russell / Georgia Southern

by Ed Coffin on Mar 9, 2008 12:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully McCain will denounce...
the support of this jackass. Everyone gave Obama shit for the support of Louis Farrakhan until he denounced his support, McCain should do the same. I believe he already did with some jerk-off that kept saying Barack's middle name at a rally.

People like this have no place in the world. Don't vote for someone because of his middle name? Are you f@#king kidding me. Perhaps the left should start calling McCain...John "W" McCain.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 8, 2008 10:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

'W'
well, they can't, that will get more people voting for McCain.
"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 8, 2008 10:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How so?
Have you not seen his approval ratings? Do you really think W is that popular? And if so, then why is McCain being very careful about how he uses his "support"?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 8, 2008 10:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

funny you should mention that...
I've never been asked my opinion.  I would give 100% approval, personally - and since I've never been asked my opinion, I'm not going to trust some bullshit opinion poll.  Period.

also, wasn't it pretty common "knowledge" that Bush wouldn't be re-elected 4 years ago?  Wasn't it like a slam dunk that everybody hated him, his public opinion was crap, and nobody wanted him back, yet he won and remained in office another 4 years?

there's so much chatter out there about Bush sucking, and everybody hating him, but he's the incumbent - we weren't looking for radical change, like the left is, and so there wasn't as much pro-Bush propaganda like there was anti-Bush propaganda.  the truth is, those that want change are going to be more vocal about it and garner support from celebs like Wyclef and Oprah to spread the "good news about CHANGE"

While I don't think our country is anywhere near being perfect, I see status quo as a lot better of an option than radical change in many cases, and I am not motivated to garner support because I am pretty satisfied with my own personal situation and the situations of all of the people that I know - whether they be liberal or conservative or middle of the road.

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

job market
looking not so great...you'll see problems soon enough in the status quo

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I respect your opinion Walter...
but obviously disagree.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's all I can ask of you
and I appreciate it.  I also appreciate the "other side's" opinion, because I think if we ran things one way all the time, life would suck and we wouldn't ever make any progress - sorta like your 55 year old boss that will always do things his way, vs. the 35 year old boss that is open to new ideas and technologies that actually improve the way the job is run
"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Status quo being
3 trillion in new debt under Bush, the US about to lose its AAA credit rating, a fed that has to fuel the inflationary fires to stop a banking collapse, recession, a pointless war in Iraq, big social entitlements like the drug benefit plan .....

Yeah, why would you want to mess with that.

"We should have bombed it (Auschwitz)"-President Bush

by DJCahill on Mar 10, 2008 6:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

except
people have already started calling him mcbush.

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 10:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it's not right, not pc at all...
but the rest of the world is stupid and naive, so, he's telling the truth in that regard...

And, not sure why you keep linking radical blogs. Who cares what they say? That's stupid.

"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 8, 2008 10:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

which one of those was a radical blog?
most of them just gave the story.  did i miss something?

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

damn
sorry, it wasn't even a blog, it was in 'comments' by some idiot. that's even more idiotic.
"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 8, 2008 10:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oh
the last link...didn't see that.  

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh
I'm not an Obama believer. I think everyone's fallen in line squawking his hopey hopey change change message (to quote Gordo) because of their discontent with the current state of things. That being said, I can't stand it when people bring up the 'Islamist extremist' plotline and reference the fact that his middle name is the same as that of a dead dictator. Oh my god, Joseph Lieberman shares a first name with Stalin! He's obviously scheming to force feed us poisonous borscht!
Bunch of crap. It's accentuated when you're a religious Jew and have to deal with the paranoia; however justified my friends are for being wary, I can't believe they're actually taking internet muckraking as credible evidence of someone's beliefs.
http://heartbreakplex.blogspot.com "I'm a winner." -Miles

by BudLight on Mar 8, 2008 10:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

+1
"I think it's clear that he (Michael Young) made sure that the story (CJ's) got out. " - mjh

by Longhorn on Mar 8, 2008 10:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't understand the last line
which is the internet muckraking?

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

All of the rumors
About Obama going to a school for religious Muslims as a kid, not swearing on the bible, not standing up for the pledge of allegiance, etc... They were started online. Presumably either by white supremacist groups or Hillary's staff.
http://heartbreakplex.blogspot.com "I'm a winner." -Miles

by BudLight on Mar 8, 2008 10:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

mis-remembering?
the pledge thing is ridiculous, the photo that came from, the other candidates had their hand over their heart during "god bless america" which isnt the national anthem.  they were the morons. thats the funniest part.
.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 9, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so the fact that somebody puts
a hand over their heart during God Bless America automatically means they're morons?

wow.

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if
they accuse others of being unpatriotic, yeah.

besides you dont put your hand over your heart for anything but the pledge of allegiance. period.  so yeah they would at the least be uneducated about the subject.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 9, 2008 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

or caught up in the moment, perhaps...
but yes, if they were calling out others for not doing that, then in that case they could be considered morons.  no argument there.
"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this argument
I don't get how it really applies.  

So, it goes, muslim extremists would be happy that obama becomes president.  And as a result of their happiness they will blow things up?  They will target the U.S. even more now that one of their own is running the country?  

the closest thing is that he said it makes the U.S. look weak.  Well, as long as we actually aren't weak, I don't think it's a problem.  And the first time Obama orders a bombing of a terrorist compound in Western Pakistan, I'm pretty sure they'll stop thinking that.

by ab03 on Mar 8, 2008 10:17 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Answering ab03
Before answering ab03, I want to say "optics" is political terminology - just as "intangibles" is baseball terminology.  Brian Thomas description, at the very top, confused me as I read it.  I thought mabe Rep. King had made a racial comment.  But the video reveals he did not.  Rep. King was using "optics" in a political context - not in a racial context.   Judge for yourself: the 90 secondish Youtube is at this url:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mq31BlASHQ

Something else:  black and brown peoples around the world(including black and brown terrorists)  will likely be heartened if Obama wins in November.  There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.  Rep. King does deserve scorn for forgetting what America is about, i.e. if Obama were the best qualified candidate for President, then America doesn't give a damn what any terrorist or anybody might think - good or bad -  about our decision to elect Obama.  Neither terrorists, no anyone else, will scare us or prevent us from electing our best candidate.  

Similarly, Rep. King's logic is inferior re both "Hussein", and Obama's father's Islamic faith.  We don't give a damn if these things encourage terrorists.  Terrorists do not get to determine how we run our nation.

Rep. King's comments revealed inferior perspective and inferior logic.  They did not reveal racism.

To abo3:
The only terrorist happiness I care about is their happiness that we elected a President who is perceived as soft on terrorism.  It's valid to consider how much extra at risk we would be if our President were perceived as "soft". It's valid to consider to what extent terrorists would be emboldened by their perception of Obama.  

If Obama gets bluffed by Al Qaeda, Iran, and the media in Iraq; and if Obama then folds a winning hand in Iraq; then it doesn't matter how many compounds Obama bombs in Pakistan.  Obama's weakness will be apparent to every Jihadi in the world.  

McCain is correct to ridicule Obama for saying he would leave Iraq, then return to Iraq if it became necessary to fight Al Qaeda.  Obama's statement is naive in a dozen ways.  Not only are Al Qaeda and Iran already attempting chaos in Iraq, but it's politically difficult(in America, in Iraq, and internationally) to suddenly insert American troops into any nation.  It's logistically difficult - including b/c you are pulling National Guardsmen away from their jobs and families.  The Natl. Guard wants to win now - when they've already been pulled away from their jobs and families.  They don't want to come home, resume their lives, then get jerked around by Obama and sent back to Iraq.  If Obama had the slightest familiarity with the military he would understand this.  If he re-sent them, the Natl. Guard would go - but he would be jerking them around.  (and whatever others are reading this, save your whining about stop-loss.  That's in everyone's contract - and everyone knows it when they sign up.  Stop-loss is kinda tough, but it is being overemphasized b/c of it's political value to Democrats.  Letting Natl. Guard resume their lives, then yanking them back into Iraq, is about 50 times more disruptive than stop-loss.  Or 100 times.)

Back to the issue: Jihadis emboldened by the weakness Obama would display via folding a winning hand in Iraq.  A lot of conservatives understand this statement inside the context of a larger threat than Al Qaeda:  the widespread, worldwide presence of Islamic terrorism/Jihadism.  The fight against Al Qaeda/Osama is really just a skirmish.  The larger war is to wrest the soul of Islam from the grasping clutches of the Islamic fundamentalism.  The fundamentalists do not control Islam, yet they want to control it.  The madrassas are turning out Jihad warriors every year.  

The fundamentalists/Jihadists must be stopped before they become exponentially stronger.   Can they be stopped by the powerful allure of freedom, democracy, and pluralism?  Can they be stopped by the powerful allure of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?  We shall find the answer to a greater certainty if McCain is elected, as McCain will allow the entire Iraq democractic effort to play out fully.  If freedom and democracy do not win more Muslims towards moderation, and away from Jihadism, then Islam runs a very much larger chance of having millions of it's citizens eventually slaughtered by American and Western nuclear weapons.  If political correctness handcuffs America into being unable to conduct smaller skirmishes such as Iraq, then America's only weapon of self-defense will become gigantic nuclear booms.  Inside this context, if one recognizes a serious Jihadi threat to the soul of Islam, then the Iraq War begins to look like a humanitarian effort on several levels:  remove Saddam and his regional meddling; liberate the Shiites and Kurds; lessen the chances of nuclear warfare in the future.

So, if one understands Iraq in this context, then one doesn't want a (perceived) soft U.S. President to take office.  Such an occurance can only encourage more Muslims towards Jihad, and away from moderation.  

I apologize for the length of this.  I don't guess I'm good enough or smart enough to make it much shorter.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 1:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

x
you're right - if we pull out, the terrorists technically win, in that some anti-american exteremist will be happy that we're gone - just like Korea, just like Vietnam, just like every other skirmish we've been in since WWII.  who cares?  

whatever, i'm not going to argue the merits of the iraq war with someone who refers to it as a humanitarian effort.  all i know is that i wouldn't want to die policing another country that may or may not pose a threat to me in 50 years (assuming that war is the only way) and I don't expect anybody else to do it for me.  i see the risk and i calculate that risking a thousand american lives a year isn't worth the small chance that american policing will yield a stable
government.  

have you served in the military?  are you speaking from experience when you say that people should be willing to go back?  how old are you?

and, incidentally, i don't think obama plans on withdrawing troops and then sending them back.  

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 1:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oh
and money has something to do with it too

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 1:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
You are correct that you and I cannot debate Iraq policy.  The reason is you and I perceive different threats.  For the threat you perceive, the risk to the lives of American soldiers is not worth it.  If I perceived the same threat as you, I very likely might agree with your assessment about what our policy should be.  

This is partially why I tried to explicate, in my comment above, what is the threat many conservatives perceive.  Conservatives such as myself are not so worried about near-term terror attacks as we are about exponential growth of the fundamentalism/Jihad movement. It is only inside the larger threat (of growing worldwide fundamentalism/Jihad) that the perceived softness of Obama is seen as a very big problem for the U.S.  

"have you served in the military?"  I will not answer.  This is the "chickenhawk" argument; and it is a discredited argument.  Any answer I give would be a distraction from logic and reason.

I didn't say anyone "should be willing to go back".  We miscommunicated somewhere on this.

"how old are you?"  Again, I think any answer I give would be a type of distraction.  I'm older than dstar.  That's enough for now.

"i don't think obama plans on withdrawing troops and then sending them back".  The bolded part is the problem.  IMO, Obama is not Mr. New Politics of Hope.  He's the same old politics which evades specifics and, when he must be specific, surrounds both sides of an issue whenever possible.  I've heard Obama criticize Hillary for not setting a hard date/schedule for withdrawal from Iraq ... then, two sentences later, I've heard Obama say that, as President, he will "of course" retain flexibility to act  according to changing conditions on the ground.  ??!!  President Bush is retaining flexibility according to changing conditions on the ground.

On Friday, a top Obama foreign policy advisor(Samantha Power) resigned from the Obama campaign and said this:  

Power told a British television audience that Obama's plan for withdrawing from Iraq (like, apparently, his plan to renegotiate NAFTA) isn't really to be taken seriously. "He will, of course, not rely on some plan that he's crafted as a presidential candidate or a U.S. Senator," Power explained. In perhaps the most sensible comment I've heard her make, Power added: "You can't make a commitment in March 2008 about what circumstances will be like in January of 2009." She went on to describe Obama's stated plan as "a best case scenario."
 
 So, the problem w/Obama:  we think this, we think that. We don't know.  He is too clever by half.  I'm beginning to suspect it will catch up to him.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Please
Logic isn't your thing.  Just say you're voting for the Republican because you're a slave to ideology and be done with it.  I'd have more respect for you that way, as opposed to the flimflam job you've got going here.

by brettgardner on Mar 9, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm voting for the Republican
because logic isn't my thing.  I'm a slave to ideology.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your view of Obama...
Only a republican would shoot down the idea of hope. I realize that you would like to see the next president (who will be a democrat) fail miserably so you could say "I told you so". I can't for the life of me figure out why people that love their country so much like to say that hope is BS and this country will never change.

Guess what, you Bush republicans have been wrong on almost everything the last 8 years. You have no leg to stand on. Why should anyone believe anything you say now. You say shit like Iraq would fall apart if we left now. How do you know? Did you have a good plan going in? Have things turned out the way you expected them to? Why should anything you say now have any validity. Just like with the economy it will take a democrat to come in and fix this mess, and they will. Whether you like it or not.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

slc
Thanks for writing a comment which comes from your heart.  I enjoyed reading it.

I love hope.  I just think Obama is a regular polotico who is playing regular political games in his efforts to win votes.  He is not some special paradigm shift.

I've never said this country will never change.  Change is inevitable and ongoing.  My worry is  we are changing for the worse.

Re:  Iraq
As I said to ab03, we cannot debate Iraq, b/c we do not agree on the threat our nation faces.  slc, if you and I agreed about what constitutes  the threat, then I might very well agree with your assessment of conditions in Iraq.

 

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

have you even talked to soldiers that have
been over there?  The ones I have talked to, and I've talked to quite a few, that were on their way over were scared, confused, misled by the media that they were going off to die for oil...the ones coming back had been through a lot, you could tell, but they believed in what they were doing - saw very good things happening, saw resistance to success from the extremists but were welcomed with open arms by local citizens.
"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have spoke to some...
but probably not as many as you. I do have a cousin that just got back a few months ago because of a injury, nothing serious but enough to get him sent home for now, and he basically said he saw very little that led him to believe things were getting better and that there would be a end in sight soon. He is fully expecting to be sent back shortly and although he is not looking forward to it, he is not really dreading it either.

Obviously with disagree on the reason for being over there. As I have always said, I'm as far to the left as they come, so you have to take my point of view with a grain of salt. Like with Huck I understand your point of view, I just disagree with it. And as you have said that is fine. It would be a very boring world if everyone agreed on everything.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

by the way, I am not a Republican.
that's how I identify myself politically, because every election year since I can remember, the Republican politicians have rested upon the same foundation that I share on the "larger" topics.  I don't personally dislike Obama, but I HATE Hillary.  I would vote against her in any election.  I personally think Obama is on his way up, but I think he's too young and inexperienced to run this country.  And I don't identify with his political foundation - it's as simple as that.    If Obama wins, and somehow makes the Iraq situation work out for all parties involved, brings a health care program that makes everybody happy, and improves our country, would I be against that?  No.  Am I cheering for failure if he is elected?  No.  I simply don't identify with him, and I don't think he's ready.
"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it matters...
if you are a republican or democrat. I'm registed as a independent but for me the democrates are too conservative and just plain spineless sometimes. Foe example, why is it that whenever anyone asks a democrat if they are "liberal" they won't answer the question. Like "liberal" is a bad word. You don't need to have a affiliation with either party. If you are educated on the issues, as you are, then you just go for whoever best represents your views.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do we really think that declaring war on them
is the best way to win over the heart and soul of Islam to peaceful coexistence and democracy?

I'm not saying I know what the best way would be. But my speculation includes some kind of humanitarian and propaganda bombardment. The war is exactly the opposite of the propaganda we would need.

by a bebop a rebop on Mar 9, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hi bebop!
You hit on key questions.  I'm not God of correct opinion.  That said, here are my opinions:

"Humanitarian bombardment"

In Iraq and Afghan, we are doing humanitarian bombardment as much as we are logistically able to do so.

"Propaganda bombardment"

I'm with you.  Our lack of public relations/propaganda bombardment is a pet peeve of mine.  Since we want to win the people away from Sharia and Jihadism, public relations/propaganda is just as important as bullets(though including the "bullets" part may not fairly reflect exactly what you said).

The good news is the U.S. military is learning strategic public relations lessons as we go, and is adapting.  

is war "the best way to win over the heart and soul of Islam to peaceful coexistence and democracy?"

This is THE KEY QUESTION, isn't it?

In Iraq, our goal is to protect the moderates, allow them to love freedom and democracy, then count on them to win the undecided fence sitters over to moderation.  

Without U.S./Iraqi/Coalition military protection for the people, Al Qaeda and Iran would never allow moderate Iraqis to be won over to freedom and democracy.

The good news is the disciplined(though imperfect) and humanitarian behavior of our troops is it's own kind of good public relations for our cause.  Our troop discipline, and our codes of conduct, are a large part of the "awakening" we currently see amongst Iraqi tribes.  For the most part, the Iraqi people now  see we are not at war with them.

Al Qaeda, especially when it was living amongst the Sunni tribes, was neither disciplined nor humanitarian.  Their behavior led to their rejection by the tribes.

Iraq is a grand democratic experiment.  If moderate Muslims are incompatible with democracy, the spector of horrific nuclear booms draws closer.  

If political correctness handcuffs the U.S.; if pc prevents us from conducting military skirmishes such as Iraq; then we are stripping ourselves of interim measures of self-protective recourse.  We will, then, take it and take it and take it from an enemy, until such time as we spasmodically strike back with the world's most horrible weapons.  

I do not want that day to happen.  I am hopeful that Muslims will embrace democracy.  I am hopeful we will not allow pc to strip us of our ability to protect ourselves in some way short of nuclear pushback.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just quit already.
"I am hopeful that Muslims will embrace democracy." Who cares if they do or don't it's their f***ing country. I wouldn't want someone to come here and say that we should change and we don't know how to run our gov't. Nuclear weapons, it's funny how you act like we are the only perfect country in the world and if others don't embrace democracy they're a terror threat. How about N. Korea? They have nuclear weapons; why not attack them? Oh, that's right they are actually capable of putting up a fight and they don't have oil. What's the point of that? Nothing upsets me more than ignorant posters like you who say everyone has to embrace democracy or all hell breaks loose.
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Air
The overriding factor in our disagreement is that you perceive one particular threat to the U.S., and I perceive a different threat.  
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
What do you think my view of the threat is and more importantly what is yours?
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Air
I don't know your perception of the threat.  But, if your perception were the same as mine, you would not hold some of the views you do.

I perceive the threat as fundamentalists/Jihadis who are attempting to gain control of Islam.  They wish to institute widespread Sharia law.  They argued, even in the 1990s, that America was attacking Islam(via many methods of attack - including cultural and economic).  Therefore, they argued, as a matter of self-defense, they argue that every Muslim should declare Jihad on America.

The number of fundamentalists might be somewhere around 91 million.  Last month, French news agency AFP reported that a new Gallup poll, which took six years to complete, showed approx. "93 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews."

Seven percent of 1.3 billion leaves us with 91 million radical Islamists.  They are the threat.  They must be severely discredited inside their own religion - just as the KKK is severely discredited inside America.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Radicals
are in every religion, to single out Islam is ludicrous.
Jihadis attempting to gain control of Islam- If you're worried about that, don't. It will never happen.

The culture- Wow. That is so off base I'm dumbfounded. "Mothers calming their sons via fondling the boys' genitals." Where the hell did you get that? You are severely misinformed my friend. I'm not Muslim but have lived in that region for awhile. Lebanon to be exact and none of the crap you said about the culture is true.

"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

FGM
happens in really rural parts of Africa and I think those people are generally muslim.  but those people are not the same as al qaeda or the taliban. geez...you shudder to think what websites this guy frequents.  and really, how old are you huck?  it makes a difference

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
I've been trying to explain that Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not the biggest threats we face.

In addition to Africa, there's a lot of FGM in Indonesia.

I disagree that age matters.  This is conversation about ideas, facts, et al.  Age, beauty, do not matter.  Even claims of experience and expertise do not matter.   What matters is the legitimacy of the ideas, facts, et al which are in the conversation.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

x
You want to bring some legitimacy/facts to your claims about the culture?
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
read this entire grouping of comments.  I've listed many specifics.  I could go on with more specifics, but I believe the point is made.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,
The point is made. You are ignorant racist, (see response to Ahmad.)"Muslims will reap violence and death." You still haven't said where you got the claim about the culture from. You've lost all credibility, if you had any to begin with.
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
I don't understand "where I got the claim about the culture from"?  IT IS THE CULTURE.  Take a look at the culture.  Evidence is everywhere.  Evidence is pervasive.  You cannot miss the evidence unless you hide yourself away from having knowledge of the culture.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I
lived in that "culture" for 3 years and didn't experience anything that you spoke of. Is the culture different? Of course. Every culture has it's differences. That's what makes the world so great. Just because they're different doesn't mean  they need to be reformed.  

"The culture currently celebrates honor killing  your daughter, as well as Female Genital Mutilation, as well mothers calming their sons via fondling the boys' genitals.  It's little wonder the culture encourages men to believe they have no control over their sexual urges.  It's little wonder the culture encourages belief in victimization over belief in responsibility."

That is my biggest problem. You have no proof and can't back any of the statements you made.  

"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
I don't understand.  Did you have a problem with the literary flair of "celebrates"?  I retract "celebrates".  Instead, I say "much of the culture practices ... x,y,z, et al."  

If you are objecting that x,y,z do not exist, I give you links(and there are plenty more links where these came from).

Honor Killing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_Killing

FGM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Genital_Mutilation

Mothers calming boys via fondling genitals:
http://shrinkwrapped.blogs.com/blog/2008/02/the-arab-mind-2.html

Men having no control over their sexual urges:  What do you think the abaiya and the burka are about?  What do you think the stoning of rape victims is about?

Belief in victimization over responsibility:
There are a lot of links I could go to here.  The main problem is that Arab and Persian societies are honor/shame cultures to the core.  People inside Honor and shame cultures do not like to admit mistakes, as they believe that admitting mistakes dishonors them(in this, they are like some commenters here at LSB!).   I always liked Dr. Pat Santy's outstanding take on this subject:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/08/shame-arab-psyche-and-islam.html

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Finally it makes sense.
You get your info from blogs/Wiki? Not credible. Also, from your link: "FGC is not a formal Islamic religious practice, though advocates will quote hadith that mention its practice. The meaning and legitimacy of such mentions are disputed within the Islamic community"
Like I originally stated, just quit. If what you've stated is true then only a minuscule amount of people do that. To imply that the majority of the culture is doing it, is false.
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
So: you objected to both "celebrated" and "much of the culture practices"; and you objected to the facts and links on the classic grounds of discrediting the messenger.  LOL!  I was trying to figure out which you objected to, and you objected to all of it - across the board!  LOL. Okay, I got it.

I will say two things:  

One:  You would learn more  from reading Shrinkwrapped, and from reading Dr. Santy, than from reflexively discrediting them.

Two:  There are many links available on this subject matter.  Many.  But, I shall not provide more links whilst hoping against hope that you will approve of a particular source.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

x
Look, it's clear that you read those blogs and came to the conclusion about the culture based upon them. Which is fine. A little irresponsible, but fine. What I'm objected to is you calling out the whole culture. In the end, I'm not going to budge on my opinion and you aren't on yours.
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
I did not come to conclusions based on those blogs.  I came to conclusions based upon a widespread preponderance of evidence, of which I  asked, again and again:  true or false?  right or wrong?  good or evil?  I came to conclusions based upon my own judgment and reasoning.

Thanks for sharing your opinions in these comments.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air - one more thing
Part of the threat is the tribal backwardness of Middle Eastern and Islamic culture.  The culture needs a historic reformation.

The culture currently celebrates standing still inside the values Mohammad learned from Allah.  The culture does not celebrate moving forward into modernity.

The culture currently celebrates honor killing  your daughter, as well as Female Genital Mutilation, as well mothers calming their sons via fondling the boys' genitals.  It's little wonder the culture encourages men to believe they have no control over their sexual urges.  It's little wonder the culture encourages belief in victimization over belief in responsibility.

The culture itself must be reformed.  I've barely touched the surface of what is flawed about the culture.  In an age of horrific weaponry, we cannot afford to have the products of such backward culture 1) blaming and hating us, and 2) funded by oil money in their efforts at retribution against us.

Lastly:  our own politically correct refusal to criticize other cultures endangers us, as it blinds us to the threat from this tribal/religious/regional culture in particular.  We've become afraid to look with clear eyes and say:  stoning homosexuals is wrong; stoning female victims of rape is wrong; burning your daughter is wrong.  We are afraid b/c, gosh, to clearly say a culture is misguided is to commit the sin of being intolerant.  J'accuse!  We should open our eyes to our own embrace of pc foolishness.  We can respect a culture, we can respect the people of a culture, and we can still look with clear eyes and say parts of the culture need reform.  If we shut ourselves down from thinking; if we, for fear of being "intolerant",  purposefully shut down our own brains from engaging and considering various verbotten subject matter; then we are paving a path to our own destruction as a successful society.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"The culture itself must be reformed."
Good luck with that.
2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 9, 2008 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

chase
It's a big job.  It may be impossible.  Democracy in Iraq is an attempt at reforming the culture.  
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You just can't force...
people to reform their culture. It may seem wrong to you but it isn't to them. Obviously I don't agree with many things in their culture but you can't forve them to change. They have to want to do it on their own. As I've said before democracy can't be foced on a nation it has to be built by that nation from the ground up by a people that are willing to do it. If the people don't want democracy then guess what, no matter how hard we force it on them it will not stick. Again, just my opinion.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

slc
I agree with every word of your comment.  I never said we could force people to change opinions.  Democracy is an opportunity which may be embraced or rejected.

I think it is smart of us to try democracy as a solution to the growing fundamentalist threat in the region.  

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I took a class that helped me out with this
basically, what's going on in this situation is a power struggle - those that have power are fighting to keep it, and those that don't are fighting to get it.  The U.S. supported Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, and supplied and educated the country during the Cold War.  On another front, the U.S. government was playing both sides in the Iraq/Iran situation, and we were responsible for supporting Saddam Hussein against Iran, and likewise, educating his regime, giving him a firm grasp of power in the region that would fill a gap in our interests.  Fast forward a few decades, and Saddam's taken his power to a new level trying to pull a Hitler routine with the Kurds in order to take control of more oil, which equals more power.  The situations in Afghanistan and Iraq were our responsibility, we gave birth to the rebellion and fed these growing situations until they became too big to remain on our leash.

Radical Islam is not really based upon Islam - it's based on power.  Islam is one of the many tools these radicals use to promote their propaganda, and when they are the ones feeding and educating the poor, they are able to plant the ideas of Jihad and radical war through tactics such as suicide bombings, they are able to blame the West for being so rich and powerful, and they are able to dangle the carrot in front of the faces of these people and recruit soldiers for their causes.

We simply cannot affect the situation through propaganda when we are not feeding, educating, and supporting the people - and we cannot feed, educate and support the people without a direct influence in the region.  The war in Afghanistan was a direct response to 9-11, because our intelligence led us there in a chase against OBL and those that conspired with him.  We all understand that.  The war in Iraq was tied to 9-11, whether correct or incorrect, and so we forged on with that idea, and the idea that Saddam was trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction.  Did we find any?  Yes.  We found biological and chemical weapons, just not a nuclear arsenal.  The whole "we didn't find nuclear weapons so we didn't find weapons of mass destruction" argument is a pretty ignorant argument if you think about it.  We did.  And we found further proof that Saddam had the plans for nuclear weapons, and was working on acquiring the materials and scientists necessary to build them.  But another reason we went into Iraq is because we have a history with the nation - not only the Gulf War, but before that, in supporting Saddam, we were responsible for his growth and influence.  If we had been given the green light by the U.N. to take Saddam out of power in 1991, we wouldn't have had the situation we have today - but the power void would have been filled in a negative way, if we hadn't offered assistance with reconstruction and education.

And what we have now in Iraq is a power vacuum.  We're trying to fill that vacuum with a democratic form of government, by feeding and educating the youth and giving them every last chance to forge a nation based on what they think is best for them, instead of constant deference to dictators and fundamentalists.

I guarantee you two things: 1) if we stay the course, and continue to educate the Iraqi people and leave them with a way to defend themselves, things will be a lot better in that region than they have been historically.  2) if we leave too early, we will open up that power vacuum, and it will be filled by all sorts with the wrong intentions, giving terrorism a strong foothold in the middle of one of the more important regions in the world.

In the end, there are many reasons we should be there: and oil is CERTAINLY a factor, as is a presence  in one of the most unstable regions in the world.  But I believe, and I think you would have to be foolish not to believe, that the Iraqis will be better off after we leave if we stay the course than they were when we arrived.

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Walter Sobchak
Excellent post.  It is filled with fact, logic, reason.  Very nice.
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank you sir
I appreciated a lot of what you had to say, felt I could offer my two cents.

I'm pretty bullheaded about this whole situation, and I understand that - I just wish people would educate themselves about the whole situation before writing the war off or backing a presidential candidate solely because they argue they were against the war from Day 1.

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Fold a winning hand in Iraq"
Lol. Priceless.

The same guys that are saying that are the ones that claimed 5 years ago (5 years!) that the war would pay for itself, and that we'd be greeted as liberators.

So I don't think I'm taking those boobs' word on anything.

As far as stop loss goes, the provision was not at all widely known amongst service members. I had been in for 6 or 7 years and had no idea they could do that when I saw it in the news. Your asinine remarks about 50 to 100 times worse show it is you who "doesn't have the slightest familiarity with the military." I'll bet all the money in my wallet you never spent 1 day in the service, but you pat yourself on the back every day for having a dandy little "support the troops" ribbon on the back of your beemer.

And Al Qaeda couldn't ask for a better recruiter than someone who plans on keeping a huge western presence on Muslim soil for 50 to 100 years. I like McCain, but he's way off on this one.

And screw the Iraqis. They want us out. They think it is perfectly acceptable to kill Americans.

And I also find it to be a curious contradiction that the Hucks and the Rushes and Hannitys of the world, who keep carping about "cutting and running," and how that would look to the rest of the globe, are the same peeps that when we were rushing into Iraq said "fuck multilateralism, we don't need anybody's approval, who cares what Europe or the UN or anyone else thinks, harumph harumph."

Occupations rarely succeed, and are never worth the cost. It's been 5 years now. Enough is enough.

Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.

by Brian Thomas on Mar 9, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and before you compose your next
patronizing essay, I'll just tell you in advance that I'm not interested.

"Fold a winning hand." Heh. Good one...

Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.

by Brian Thomas on Mar 9, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Thomas
you say:

"I'll just tell you in advance that I'm not interested"

EXACTLY.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So why hijack his thread?
Douche bag.
2/26/08 R.I.P. The BGL ... out.

by Chase Irwin on Mar 9, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chase
In my original "reply to AB" comment, I examined  Brian Thomas' original points.  If "hijacking the thread" means "disagreeing with Brian Thomas and other commenters", then I am guilty and unrepentant.  
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

to the commenters
who reflexively infer that Rep. King is racist: the stronger argument is to point out why Rep. King's perspective and logic are inferior.

One can almost never actually know if a person is racist.  Such a thing is conjecture, and almost always will be conjecture(except in very rare instances of blatant public exposure), and therefore such an allegation is weak tea.  We cannot see into someone's heart.

 

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 1:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hucks the same guy
who i had a huge discussion about states rights and he refused to recognize its roots in slavery and jim crow laws.

the guy wouldnt know racism if it bit him in the ass.

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 9, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

jayslick
Wow.  Quite a distortion.  I previously made no assertion, either way, about roots, slavery, Jim Crow, or anything like that.  You were conducting a one person monologue about that stuff.  

You read into my two highlighted comments(below) what you wanted to read into them.  You so strongly assumed you knew my views that my actual words didn't seep into your consciousness.

Here, word for word, is everything I said:

my first comment

sigh.  

What can I call it, other than States Rights, so I will not be implying prejudice?

PC is so incredibly tiresome - and such a ridiculous joke.  

my second comment

Thats all fine, and enlightening, and is truly  interesting discussion, imo.  I'm geeky enough to like that stuff.  I concur with much of your comment.

But, you know what I am talking about.  Here is the very first sentence of your own Wikipedia link:

States' rights refers to the idea, in U.S. politics and constitutional law, that U.S. states possess certain rights and political powers in relation to the federal government.
Now, what do you want me to call that, so I will  not offend PC sensibilities or accidentally speak in negative code?  
. Consistent with your cited Wikipedia articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_rights#Since_1865
I will endeavor to say "States powers" in the future.  

 

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats great
but no president since fdr has consolidated more power in the executive branch, taking power away from congress and the states.  

how can you so adamantly support a party that favors that?

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 9, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jayslick
before you switch to another subject, does "that's great" mean you retract your allegation about racism/my not knowing/biting my ass, et al?
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so
when a white guy to a white audience says things in reference to islamic religion and stereotypes names based on drumming up supposed fear relating to a candidate, thats not racism?

what is it?

.500 or bust!

by Jayslick on Mar 9, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jayslick
I don't mind entertaining your expanding oeuvre of subject matter.  

But, before I do, I'm curious whether you concede my point(?), i.e.  I expressed no opinion which either agreed or disagreed with you vis a vis racism, states rights, et al.

Let me try it this way:  for all you know, I agree with you 100%.  I expressed no opinion contradicting anything you said.  I merely asked how I could refer to the subject (right/powers of states) without offending pc sensibilities.  Do you now concede this point?  

You should concede the point.  I will congratulate you if you genuinely do so.  It would show wisdom and graciousness on your part.  

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huck
Who are you to tell people what we Muslims believe?  Last I checked I myself am a Muslim and I am veru offended by your hateful remarks and racist attitude towards my religion and culture.  Calling us backwards? If you have a remark about Islam how about asking a Muslim before telling people what Muslims "are" or "are not"  I am a Muslim and I do not support Obama, infact i personally supported Ron Paul, a republican.  Next time you want to make insulting and hateful remarks towards someone's beliefs, please think twice.  Peace!!
Free Palestine!

by The Ahmad on Mar 9, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahmad
Do you dispute the specifics I listed?

Do you dispute that fundamentalists wish to gain influence within Islam?  
Do you dispute the fundamentalists wish to implement Sharia?  
Do you dispute the fundamentalists encourage every Muslim to declare Jihad on America?
Do you dispute the widespread existence of honor killings?  The United Nations Population Fund  says possibly 5000 women per year are killed in honor killings.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Population_Fund
Do you dispute the wide practice of FGM?
Do you dispute that homosexuals are stoned?
Do you dispute that rape victims are stoned?

I respect Muslims.  Can you point to a specific instance of racist attitude on my part?  I'll answer that:  you cannot.

The combined religion/tribalism/region is in the grip of backwards attitudes.  The religion/tribal culture is in desperate need of reformation. If you are unwilling to admit that you are part of the problem.  

Do you think I don't know any Muslims?  Do you think I have never conversed with them?  

If Islam/tribal culture does not reform, no one will have peace - least of all the Muslims of the region.  Please consider the long term implications.  Muslims will reap violence and death.  

Last, since "Free Palestine" is in every one of your posts:  Palestine has every opportunity to free itself.  Palestinians hate Jews more than they love freedom.  Palestinians want Jews pushed en masse into the ocean more than they want freedom.  It is Jews who truly want to free Palestine.  At every turn, Palestinian leadership refuses to allow Palestine to be free.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

5000 women per year
killed in honor killings.  

Interesting.

I think there are 1400 instances of Jewish American hate crimes every year.  So, our culture must represent hate of the jews.  

There are about 16000 deaths from alcohol related crashes.  So, our culture must be alcohol centric.

etc.

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those...
are very good points ab.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 9, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know
its pretty amazing how many of the things he listed, with a little tweaking, could be applied to the u.s.

"do you deny that fundamentalist christians wish to gain influence in the U.S."

"do you deny fundamentalist christians wish to institute christianity in U.S. government"

"do you deny that homosexual hate crimes occur in the U.S."

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
Thanks for giving me opportunity to point this out:  

The Christians you speak of wish to gain influence through persuasion, as opposed to violence.  

If Christianity is instituted in the U.S. government(as if it would ever happen), it will be instituted through democratic means, as opposed to violent means.

But, isn't your argument silly?  Christianity is designed to explicitly stay out of government("Render unto Caesar..."), and is nowhere near a take-over of U.S. government - despite the near hysteria of 7 years of leftists predicting a fundamentalist take-over by Bush and his minions(minions like Walter Sobchak!).  On the other hand, Islamists are constantly working to take over a nation and institute Sharia.  It is their explicit stated short-term goal, and they have come near to accomplishing it(and actually did accomplish it w/the Taliban in Afghan).  On the surface, your argument looks interesting.  But, delved into, the comparisons do not hold up.

Homosexual:  when we begin stoning homosexuals, as the government of Iran does, for instance, you can get back to me.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate to sound like a jackass, ab03
because I respect you - but that's a pretty weak retort...

"gaining influence" is one thing, taking captive of foreign reporters and beheading them on film is another.

"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
LOL!  The irony is thick!  Who do you think is committing all those hate crimes against Jews?  I'll tell you:  a handful of skinheads, and a boatful of those who shall be called "students" and not have their religion identified in news stories(b/c we must not jump to conclusions!).

Further, our culture is doing everything we can to eliminate and to denounce such hate crimes. Arab cultures are not.  

Consider this story from 2003:

Jordan's Parliament has rejected the senate's recommendation to uphold a law providing stiffer penalties for men who kill women in so-called "honour killings".
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=39747

Consider the story of a Palestinian girl who was doused with gasoline and burned, and the hospital staff refused to treat her, as they well understood she needed to die:

"I'm going to take care of you," were the brother-in law's soothing words before he doused Souad with gasoline and set her aflame.

Ninety percent of Souad's body was burned and she was left to die in a local hospital - where the staff refused to treat her, for they understood all too well that it was important for this charmuta to die. Souad's mother showed up to the hospital as the protagonist in the final act, hoping to finish off what her son-in-law had started. In her unrivalled motherly love, she brought a glass of poison to her daughter's lips, commanding her to drink. But the entrance of a doctor into the hospital room interfered with the intended script and Souad's life was spared.

By the miraculous and courageous intervention of a Swiss-based humanitarian worker ("Jacqueline"), Souad survived and was flown to Europe -- where she lives today under a secret identity. If her family discovered that she were alive and discerned her new whereabouts, they would still come to murder to her.

I do not equate American society's denunciation of hate crime with some Arab society's acceptance and tolerance of murder.  I also do not equate hate crime - which might amount to graffiti - with the murder of your daughter.

Regarding the alcohol related accidents:

  1. those are accidents, not deliberate murders
  2. our society is reforming itself, through increased enforcement, through lowering of legal blood alcohol levels.
  3. to the extent we are failing to stop this problem, my criticism is equal to anyone's.  We should reform.  
 
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burned Alive
Here's a link to Souad's story.  It is compelling.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={B60E8F70-561B-4BC9-9CAB-506CD356BD6D}
Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap.
The sites you visit are scary. No offense but, you've probably been brainwashed. These sites are no different than KKK sites.
"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Air
You think Al Jazeera is scary right wing?  Front Page magazine?  Both reporting news stories(as opposed to opinion stories)?  

You are rejecting fact which does not align with your worldview.   I could find more news reports of the Jordinian Parliament's action.  I could find(I have seen it in the past) at least one other account of Souad's story.  You are trying to discredit me because you cannot discredit my reasoning.  You may not realize it, but what you are doing is intellectually lazy and duplicitous.  You may not realize it, but you are dulling your own ability to maked reasoned arguments.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What
more of an argument do I need to make? I lived there for three years and didn't experience anything that you speak of. How many times do I need to say this for you to understand: Their are isolated incidents just like any other culture/religions... What I don't agree with, is you saying that it portrays the majority of the culture.

BTW, age does matter. I'm a Texas Tech alum class of '96.

"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

air
Your "scary websites" assertion was an attempt to discredit me.

I don't necessarily say every single thing represents a majority of the culture.  For instance, I linked to the Gallup poll which claims 93% of Muslims are moderates.  What I say is the culture needs a reformation.  The culture needs to embrace modernity.  

I honestly do not understand what age has to do with anything.  BTW, eventually my age will probably become known, and any reaction will be a big "so what?  Why in the world were we interested in his age?"  In the meantime:  why does age matter?  I don't get it at all.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

x
Age doesn't matter, as long as you're an adult.
Here's a wiki on front page, could be completely false, reminds me of the NOI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrontPage_Magazine

"Ager is going to be something special" - hinduplaya

by AirJordan on Mar 9, 2008 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

or he has educated himself
I respect those that don't share my beliefs when they can spout out fact, instead of mouthing off...you should learn how to do that yourself
"Look at our current situation with that camel fu#%er over in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind."

by Walter Sobchak on Mar 9, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

also
you've conversed wtih muslims?  really?  are you old enough too?  are you 18 and are your experiences from conversing with kids your age.  Are you 70?

i think it matters

by ab03 on Mar 9, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ab03
I wish I had not said "I've conversed w/Muslims" in response to Ahmad saying "you should ask a Muslim."  That I've conversed with Muslims doesn't mean much.

Age:  why?  Do you wish to explain your viewpoint?  Maybe you will win me over.  My age is not some deep, dark secret - it is irrelevant and unmeaningful.  I just hate to distract from the subject matter with extraneous crud.

Patience

by Huck on Mar 9, 2008 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who thinks
Clinton will win Pennslvania?
I have all the hook ups to the inside souces...

by miles on Mar 8, 2008 10:22 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately I do...
probably something like 55% to 45%.

However Obama took Wyo today and will take Mississippi, so neither will really gain any delegates after PA. Obama will still be up 100 or so imo.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Mar 8, 2008 10:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think that while
Muslims would probably prefer that Obama wins over someone like McCain, they will hardly be "dancing in the streets", and I think it will have more to do with Obama's promise to get troops out of Iraq.

I think extremists hate Americans whether they are Muslim or not.

Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball

by willamos2 on Mar 8, 2008 10:31 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The funny
thing is that these quotes will help Obama, and hurt Mccain.
I have all the hook ups to the inside souces...

by miles on Mar 8, 2008 10:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

+1
I think people are a lot more likely nowadays to view these types of comments with contempt rather than agreement.
Adam J. Morris: everyone's favorite 100-year-old train conductor.

by ghtd36 on Mar 9, 2008 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HUCK
LOL, to your posts.  Seriously, the questions you asked me are silly.  First you talk about "honor killings" yes there are honor killings in countries where the majority of the people are Muslims but NO it does not reprsent our religion.  Infacct honor killings are haram in Islam (haram= forbidden) and the ones who do such crimes should be punished by death.  Islam does not tolerate or condone honor killings.  and about the genitle thing that is anti-Islamic and practiced mainly in Africa among tribes with old methods of thinking and Islam is against such things.  If you want to judge Islam use the Quran and Hadith (authentic ones, not false ones that the enemies of Islam make up)  I am not saying Muslims are saints because they arent, no human is but do NOT pin that on the great religion of Islam. It's funny when a christian kills someone his religion is never mentioned yet when a Muslim commits a crime it becomes Islamic murderer, lol.  It's funny that Nuns cover up and they are called women for God yet when Muslim women cover up they are oppressed.  Islam does not need to be reformed, you and your ignorant, backwards thinking need to be reformed.  and yes Islam is against homosexuals, but so is the christian and jewish religion and in the bible it condemns such acts.  And No Islam does not nowhere say to stone a rape victim. Islam commands to stone someone who commits adultry, be they male or female.  And No not all Muslims want to wage "jihad" on America, seriously dude stop watching fox news and stop going to them racist sites that you posted above.  And you say we want to push jews into the sea?  First off we dont and second off if the house you lived in now was invaded by some random people who claim that they lived in that house and they decide to kick you and your family out and take your house and while they are at it they beat one of your sons, kill another and rape your wife or daughter or sister or mother.  I ask you what would you do?  What would anyone do?  We are not against jews, we are against zionism, as are many Jews.  There are even websites for Jews against zionests, check them out if you would like.  Stop trying to teach me and others about My own religion and open your eyes and mind.  Thank you AB for what you have been saying.  Huck if you want to get into a detailed debate with me, we can do it in private or go into a chat and speak directly and invite anyone you would like.  I believe that is the best way to better understand one another and better educate ourselves. My offer has been extended to you, peace!
Free Palestine!

by The Ahmad on Mar 9, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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