Above or Below?
by red shoe ranger on Apr 21, 2008 10:25 PM CDT
50 comments
Ive been thinking for some time that Ranger players are overrated by their fans.
Unfortunately, I'm no stat guru...I have to settle for formulating my opinions based on my own history of observing the great game.
Lets play a game...Is the Ranger above, below, or simply average?(at his position, taking into account all facets of the game, and not just based on this years performance)
1st- Ben B. below average
2nd- Kinsler above average
SS- MY average
3rd- Hammer average
C- Laird below average
CF- Hamillton above average
LF- Murphy below average
RF- Byrd below average
DH- Milton average
Pitchers...same thing(rated against his spot in the rotation
1- Millwood below average
2- Padilla below average
3- Jennings below average
4- Gabbard average
5- Mendoza below average
That gives me:
4 average players
8 below average players
2 above average players
I'm sure you guys can bring stats into this discussion and legitimize or discredit my thoughts.
I said all this to say....Its Wash's fault, OBVIOUSLY!
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Milton Bradley
above average
"Then, like a**holes, they took it back." -Jeff of Lookout Landing after Hamilton's 9th inning HR on April 1st.
by dstar442005 on Apr 21, 2008 10:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
good call
I forgot DH
All the glory to Wash on that signing….now that its been pointed out to me that he makes off season personell moves(see Ben B.)
by red shoe ranger on Apr 21, 2008 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I have to admit
Based on the title, something in the back of my mind expected subject matter far different from this…
by lonestarJon on Apr 21, 2008 10:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Were you really expecting
this team to contend this year? Because your post is only relevant if that’s the case. Just to consider the outfield, don’t you think the team is in a much better position now than this time last year, on both offense and defense?
Your point seems to be that Washington should not be blamed. Given that Washington’s specialty is defensive instruction, don’t you think he is accountable for that as well as the team’s overall lackluster performance? Are you implying that this collection of players would be even worse with a different manager?
Look, no one hear expected this team to win 95 games. We all thought there was a slim chance of contending if everything went right somehow. No one is saying that Washington single handedly ruined their chances.
Whatever gets you through the night, 'salright, 'salright.
by t ball on Apr 21, 2008 10:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In defence of Wash's defense
Young already sucked at D, Kinsler too, Blalock as well.
Wash has learned a valuable lesson. You need the horses to be a “good manager”, and he aint got the horses.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 21, 2008 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kinsler...
doesn’t suck at D. He has made some errors, but he has also gotten to some balls and made some plays that very few 2B in the league make.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Apr 21, 2008 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are Kinslers errors
not taken into account when people say Wash hasnt taught this team defense.
Kinsler is athletic and shows nice range, but tell the truth….do you feel good when you see an average speed grounder headed straight to Kinsler?
FWIW I did say he was an above average second baseman.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 21, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I don't get...
his offense has not been that good, yet. And if you think his defense sucks then how do you have him as a above average 2B?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Apr 21, 2008 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
"Hmn [sic] ... pehaps [sic] I've said too much..." - LSJesus
by Chase Irwin on Apr 22, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all those...
although I think Millwood and Padilla would be a average 2/3. And BGL will be a above average closer (probably just average right now though).
We all knew this team was not a contender this year. I love how many LSBers look at that lineup and say how much it sucks then blame Wash when the team loses.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Apr 21, 2008 10:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kinsler is above
average?
"He throws that curveball so hard and it snaps 12 to six like you've never seen." - Matt Kemp on Clayton Kershaw
by miles on Apr 21, 2008 11:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
name 15 active 2b you'd rather have.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on Apr 22, 2008 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya I second that
1. Utley
2. Phillips
3. Upton
4. Roberts
5. Cano
6. Kendrick
7. Kinsler
8.Weeks
9.Uggla
10.Johnson or Pedroia
I would say they’re is a pretty significant drop off after the 11 listed above. 30 teams, 11 on the list I’m thinking Kinsler is an above average 2B.
Those are just my rankings FYI and from Kendrick down is all pretty much a toss up.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Well, Upton no longer counts, as he hasn’t played second all season.
But off the top of my head Orlando Hudson, Aaron Hill, Jeff Kent, and Placido Polanco all belong somewhere on that list. Brendan Harris has been very good this year.
Heck, Jose Lopez has really taken to the second spot in the M’s lineup and is flat-out carrying my fantasy team right now.
I think Kinsler belongs in the top 15 of that group, but the top seven? I know I’m gonna probably gonna end up with 7 furious replies from LSJ accusing me of being a Kinsler Hater for saying this… But I don’t think he is.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dirk, the O-dog's days are behind him
Same with Jeff kent. Aaron Hill I forgot about on my list below, though. He’d rank above Kinsler and Kendrick, and knock Polanco out of the top-10.
Brendan Harris is okay, but he’s not that special, and Jose Lopez is over-performing. Polanco has had a flat out horrid start to the season though, and isn’t getting any younger.
I don’t feel like arguing about Kinsler again with you, because it won’t get either of us anywhere, but suffice it to say, I disagree with you on Kinz, as I’m betting most people on this site would. He’s not the gutter-swabber you’re making him out to be.
That .272 average you’re bitching about is actually 8th in the majors out of 2nd basemen with at least 60 AB’s so far.
by lonestarJon on Apr 22, 2008 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
I called him a gutter-swabber?
I always thought people were just being message board jerks when they attacked you personally, but you’re really trying my patience here. When the mother f^^k did I call him a gutter-swabber? Seriously. Stop being dumb. You’re making me angry with all the dumb.
And if you want to use batting average as the only statistical ammunition to refute claims people NEVER MADE, then you should probably head over to the ESPN or DMN boards where they’ll think you’re smart for knowing how to use your keyboard to make numbers appear on screen.
“How does he do that?” they’ll all say.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you're the one being dumb
By bitching about things you shouldn’t be bitching about. You’re acting like Kinsler is some mid-pack second baseman with Jose Lopez’s offense, and it’s just not true. You may not have said it directly, but that’s what you’re insinuating.
His defense sucks, and that’s the strongest point of your arguement against him. But you can’t deny the athletic ability is there, and he should improve given time (he did last year).
And as for offense, you where the one that complained about his .272 batting average, and I’ve proven you wrong about that.
But if you want, here’s the OBP for 2B with more than 60 AB’s:
1. Chase Utley, .430
2. Mark DeRosa .416
3. Dustin Pedrioa, .398
4. Aaron Hill, .372
5. Mark Grudzelanik, .358
6. Ian Kinsler, .344
You’re the one who’s wrong, Dirk. Normally your posts are well rashioned and thought out, and I enjoy them, but this time is an exception. You’ve got something against Kinsler, and I understand, when you’ve got something against a guy, everything he does sucks (I’m that way with Gerald Laird). But with Kinsler, you’ve picked the wrong guy to go after – his stats are a lot better than you’re giving him credit for.
by lonestarJon on Apr 22, 2008 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
It’s like you’re a robot sent back through time to torment me by being horrible at life.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kins
Well Upton playing only CF bumps Kinsler up another spot.
Orlando Hudson is on the wrong side of thirty, doesn’t display much power, and has a career line of .277/.342/.429. While his defense is better than Kinsler he just doesn’t have the upside potential.
Aaron Hill I’ll give ya he seems like he’s going to be a special player.
Jeff Kent=Old. If you were to only take into consideration this year I would only give a slight edge to Kent. You never know when he is going to fall of the face of the earth.
Placido Polanco is 33 and hes from the DR so he could be 36! Hes really only had one exceptional year, doesn’t take walks, doesn’t hit for power, and doesn’t run particularly well.
I don’t really think Jose Lopez and Brendan Harris are quite yet ready to end the convo. I’m not saying that Ian Kinsler is the 2nd coming of Ryne Sandberg I’m just saying due to the weakness at his position he ranks as an above average 2nd baseman.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well what is the criteria for these rankings?
Are these like Bill Simmons Trade Value Rankings, where we’re taking everything into account (age, salary, future potential) to determine their value around the league?
My list was who I thought was going to be the best this year, based very strongly off what they did last year, with a little bit of what they’ve done this year thrown in.
Take Jeff Kent, for instance. He may be old, and he gets points taken for his defense, but for this year he’s coming off a .300/.375/.500 season, and while his numbers a re down a little to start the year, the slugging percentage is still up, which is a good indicator that the bat speed is still there. If we’re talking who I expect to be better this season, yah, I’d take Kent over guys like Kinsler and Weeks who have the potential to be much better than Kent, and who have exceptional long term potential.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
He said: , “taking into account all facets of the game, and not just based on this years performance)”
So I took that as past and future value. As I said above I would give the edge this year to Kent but going forward to Kinsler. If we were to take salary into account which is a facet of the game, Kinsler is making half a mill this year and Kent is making 9Mill. I don’t think you can make an argument that Jeff Kent is worth 8.5Mill more than Kinsler.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All facets of the game
means offense, defense and those oft-derided thingies we like to call “intangibles”, not predicted performance in future seasons, and not salary.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I consider it to mean all encompassing
Oh well.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rank Cano above Roberts
And have Pedroia a little higher. BJ Upton is playing CF these days as well, so he’s not eligible for the list. I’m not sure that Kendrick is better than Kinsler, as he seems far too injury prone.
My top 10 2B would be:
1. Utley
2. Phillips
3. Cano
4. Roberts
5. Weeks
6. Pedroia
7. Tie – Kendrick/Kinsler
9. Uggla
10. Polanco
by lonestarJon on Apr 22, 2008 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, man
I hate doing lists like this cause I know 5 seconds after I post it I’ll change my mind, but what the heck:
1. Utley
2. Phillips
3. Roberts
4. Cano
5. Aaron Hill (Can’t believe he hasn’t made one single person’s list so far)
5. Pedroia
6. Kendrick
7. Jeff Kent
8. Orlando Hudson
9. Tie Weeks/Kinsler (Both guys have the potential to be be much better)
Honorable Mention: Polanco, who can’t possibly have gotten this bad this fast, could he?
Uggla’s defense is alledgedly pretty horrible, so I dock him for that. Brendan Harris has been great, but there’s way too much of that new car smell about him right now, so I don’t know what he’s really about. And Jose Lopez is a notoriously fast start/second half suck guy, so call me when he’s still going like this in the summer and we’ll talk.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And of course
I forgot Kelly Johnson, who was pretty good last year and has been been “meh” this year.
"Sabean did a good job on selling high on Liriano." -Excel Hearts Choi
by thedirkatron on Apr 22, 2008 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton
average?
"He throws that curveball so hard and it snaps 12 to six like you've never seen." - Matt Kemp on Clayton Kershaw
by miles on Apr 21, 2008 11:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
That right there robs this list of it’s cred.
The other ones I take issue with:
Millwood and Padilla are solid average. Not above average, but solid. Hank Blalock is also an above-average 3B.
This team is better than 7-13. They just need to get rid of the shitty players like Broussard and Laird, and find someone who can manage it.
by lonestarJon on Apr 22, 2008 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree on Blalock
I would say he is very average. He plays sub par defense and mid-level offense for a 3B.
I would take A-Rod, Wright, Cabrera, Braun, A. Ramirez, Figgins, G. Atkins, R. Zimmerman, A. Beltre, A. Gordon, M. Lowell & E. Longoria over him. It’s not that he’s necessarily bad its just the amount of quality 3B’s out there.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Not so sure about Figgins, but point taken. With all Hank has been through the last couple seasons physically as well, you’re right, he is about average compared to all the quality 3B’s out there.
by lonestarJon on Apr 22, 2008 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
Maybe I just like Figgins for fantasy baseball.
He does have great versatility though being able to play all 3 OF spots, 2B, 3B, and even 27 games at SS though he primarily plays 3B these days. He isn’t your typical 3B b/c he hits for no power but I think his BS ability is taken for granted but I would love to have a Ranger than can take all those singles and walks and end up on 2B. Not to mention he has been absolutely killing the ball the last 2 years with a .330/.393/.432 last year and a .368/.473/.421 this year.
White Women!
by nikpin on Apr 22, 2008 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he said relative to starting rotation spot
millwood is a below average #1 and padilla a below average #2.
i guess you could try to put it as we have an average #2, average #3 (which is generous anyway) in them and just are missing the ace entirely, but the way he put it isnt really inaccurate.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on Apr 22, 2008 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think
Milton is an above average DH?
are you only using this years stats ot base that on?
by red shoe ranger on Apr 22, 2008 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
he could beat every other DH up…
"He throws that curveball so hard and it snaps 12 to six like you've never seen." - Matt Kemp on Clayton Kershaw
by miles on Apr 22, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mavs
What are the tea leaves saying?
Saw a stat that the Mavs are1-6 in game 1’s under Avery and 6-1 in game 2’s.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 22, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blalock is the definition of average,
he is a lefty Joe Randa.
Worsh must go!
by JTodd on Apr 22, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another man announces his candidacy for Mayor of Noshitsville
In tomorrow’s diary, he’ll tell us what color the sky is…
Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.
by Brian Thomas on Apr 22, 2008 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
have you been in a cave?
there has been ample discussion this past week on this blog regarding who’s more at fault for this teams current record. There seems to be a consensus building that Wash is the one to blame…I disagree.
So, when one posts a counter-argument hes doing no more than pointng out that the sky is blue?
Well, since my observation was so obvious to you(Noshitsville) I’ll count you as squarely in the “it’s the players fault” camp.
Oh well…Good times
by red shoe ranger on Apr 22, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect
this team will, after a shaky start like last year’s shaky start, play .500 ball for the duration of the season, just like last year, because this team isn’t much better or worse than last year’s team.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on Apr 22, 2008 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you
assuming that the starting rotation is going to start sucking again?
I think if the starting rotation keeps up what they’re doing or starts slacking just a little this team is more than capable of playing above .500 ball the rest of the way.
Fishing in the rivers of life. All bound for Mu Mu Land.
by Escher on Apr 22, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect
they won’t be going as well as they are currently going.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on Apr 22, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can
certainly see that. I think Millwood and Padilla have the ability to keep up what they’re doing, it’s the rest of the rotation that has some question marks, especially if Gabbard goes to the DL.
Fishing in the rivers of life. All bound for Mu Mu Land.
by Escher on Apr 22, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I voted to give him the full season
And pointing out the ludicrously obvious fact that the team is composed of many “below average players” doesn’t qualifiy as a “counter-argument.” Maybe a below average “counter-argument.”
Look, nobody with half a brain expects this team to be playing .575 ball. But we do expect that they not look like unprofessional laughingstocks. They’ve been embarassing themselves lately.
How much of that is on Wash, I don’t think you can say. But some of it has to be.
Rex Hudler is in demand as a motivational speaker.
by Brian Thomas on Apr 22, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope
that Millwood and Padilla can keep up a 2.53 and 3.12 ERA respectively, but If they added a run or a run and a half to that, I wouldnt be too upset and/or disappointed.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on Apr 22, 2008 10:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Should've been a reply to Escher above.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on Apr 22, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
provided Millwood stays healthy I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him end the season somewhere around 3.5 or so. and if Padilla adds a run to a run and a half to his I would be happy with that.
Fishing in the rivers of life. All bound for Mu Mu Land.
by Escher on Apr 22, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
1.8 runs to Padilla’s in one outing…ugh.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Apr 22, 2008 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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