Michael Young speaks on moving to 3B
by Adam J. Morris
on May 19, 2008 11:31 PM CDT
In summary...he doesn't want to:
[D]oes this mean Michael Young is headed for third base?
Young has the answer to the second question.
"Absolutely not," he said before the Rangers' game with the Twins at the Metrodome on Monday night. "It hasn't been brought up. It hasn't been brought up to me, so it hasn't been brought up."
* * *
For the time being, Young will stay at shortstop. Club officials have not approached him about moving to third base and have no immediate plans to do so. They will not do anything until speaking with him, but it has been talked about internally, especially with the possibility that Double-A Frisco shortstop Elvus Andrus could be ready for the Major Leagues in the next year or two.
Young isn't particularly interested in moving.
"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said. "I can't envision what's going to happen down the road, but for right now and the near future, any position other than shortstop is not an option."
* * *
"If something happens down the road and the team is better served by me moving, I'm sure there will be some discussions," Young said. "But the time is not now, and I don't see it in the near future."
"Near future" meaning this year, I agree, I don't see it.
But if "near future" is 2009...well, I'd bet Young is incorrect there.
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There is
your team leader and face of the franchise.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 19, 2008 11:32 PM CDT 0 recs
My sentiments exactly...
...I would have posted that verbatim but I’ve been away from the internet since yesterday afternoon.
This is just the kind of thing that reinforces my feelings on this so-called FOTF.
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 8:13 AM CDT
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Shawn Chacon.
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on May 19, 2008 11:33 PM CDT 0 recs
Michael Young sounds like an asshole right there
We should trade him somewhere where he can play his precious shortstop position.
Leader he is not.
A Lonestar in California - 2.0
David Murphy rocks, so Ellsbury can just go get himself a taco or something.
by lonestarJon on May 19, 2008 11:34 PM CDT 0 recs
- right there
+ just about every time he’s quoted in media.
by venturafearsnolan on
May 20, 2008 1:53 AM CDT
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+1MM
This is just the latest in a long line of his turdheadedness.
Such a “team player”. All he wants is to win. Yeah, right.
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 8:15 AM CDT
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I don't fault him for that.
Moving him right now would be as odd as the Blalock move. This kind of thing should be done in the offseason, and to me his comments leave that possibility open.
Anyway, I think that if Daniels has the balls to axe Buck, trade Danks for McCarthy, talk Hicks into a rebuild, and roll the dice on Hamilton, he can probably handle telling Young he needs to move.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on May 19, 2008 11:34 PM CDT 0 recs
Blalock asked to be moved to help the team
MY should do the same.
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:36 PM CDT
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But he shouldn't do it
right now.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:38 PM CDT
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that's fine
then say something like, right now, i’m not sure it’s beneficial for the team, but in the longterm, it might be something we look at…
But nooooooo, he has to be all bitchy about it.
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:39 PM CDT
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Isn't that
pretty much what he said? Frankly I think he’d have a hard time adjusting to a new position. He probably feels he worked hard to move to SS and knows what it would take to move again. I can understand being hesitant to do that again, certainly mid-season.
I just think it’s funny how some players are glorified and then vilified here. I think he’s kind of a prick, too, but I don’t think he’s a prick about feeling strongly about the position he plays. Just because Blalock decided to offer to move doesn’t mean every other player should rush into Wash’s office and ask where they should be playing. It’s up to the team to talk with the players when they feel the time is right.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:44 PM CDT
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it sounds more like a player
who’s in denial.
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:45 PM CDT
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Could be,
but I think he probably feels he’s not great but not hurting the team. Again, if the team feels he’s in denial, then they need to approach him, not expect him to be a self-deprecating hero.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:47 PM CDT
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+1
I think MY is just to petty to admit he sucks at shortstop. That’s my personal opinion.
A Lonestar in California - 2.0
David Murphy rocks, so Ellsbury can just go get himself a taco or something.
by lonestarJon on
May 19, 2008 11:38 PM CDT
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Not petty
but I think he does have a real chip on his shoulder. Too proud and stubborn. That is what got him this far, he’s an overachiever, but now that he’s “made it” he needs to get a little humility.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
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What do you expect him to say?
I think MY is just to petty to admit he sucks at shortstop.
How many major leaguers do you think would come out and say they suck at the position they’ve been playing the last 4-5 years?
by Adam J. Morris on
May 19, 2008 11:41 PM CDT
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Ones that are smart enough to realize they would better their team by moving to another position
A Lonestar in California - 2.0
David Murphy rocks, so Ellsbury can just go get himself a taco or something.
by lonestarJon on
May 19, 2008 11:43 PM CDT
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Blalock JUST did it.
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:43 PM CDT
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No he did not.
We might feel that’s why they want to move him, but he might feel like it’s partly to improve the black hole of offense the team has had at 1B. Blalock most certainly did NOT say “I seem to suck at 3B, please move me to a less challenging position.”
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:46 PM CDT
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please
he knew the best thing for him and his career was a move away from 1B. Why do you think he said he’s not going back to 3B?
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:48 PM CDT
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No, he said he wanted to move to a new position to better the team
Which is what MY should admit regarding a move to 3B. But instead, he’s bing an asshole about it, because he thinks that if he accepts that move, it will be an admission that he is not good enough to play SS anymore. Which is what I take issue with.
A Lonestar in California - 2.0
David Murphy rocks, so Ellsbury can just go get himself a taco or something.
by lonestarJon on
May 19, 2008 11:49 PM CDT
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Look,
how would you feel if the day after your colleague changed jobs a bunch of people came to you asking “so when are you going to admit you need to take a less challenging position”? I think 99 out of 100 people would respond as Young did, if they have any pride in their work.
I’m not trying to be Young’s defender here, I think he’s a dork. But I think we’re all getting waaayyyy ahead of ourselves with several things about this organization. Too many people want 2010 to be here this week. Here’s a general rant-like response to all the ways I feel folks here have been too impatient lately:
- Andrus needs time, we’ll see him in 2010 or maybe late 2009.
- Young does not need to move this year and the team can tell him to move when they’re ready
- Ramirez needs to catch every day at Frisco for a while
- the catching situation with Lard and Salt will resolve itself soon enough
- Chris Davis is still a baby and we can wait
- We probably should not make plans for Diamond until he actually pitches a few times
- CJ Wilson is a talented and intelligent pitcher, he does not suddenly suck for all time. You can say he is not a long term solution at closer, but that is a looooooonnnnnnng way from “he sucks”.
- Hamilton has not played a lot of baseball over the last few years, he is going to make mistakes in the OF.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 19, 2008 11:59 PM CDT
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Dear t ball
9 times out of 10, you’re right on. I enjoy reading your contributions to this site and this one is your best yet. Keep it up, my man. Knee-jerks be damned. You’re right on the money.
by robert_d_wilfong on
May 21, 2008 1:36 AM CDT
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It's nice and breezy
up here on my high-horse.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 21, 2008 7:27 AM CDT
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Relax
He can say whatever is relevant now, about now. He also probably doesn’t want to throw Vasquez under the bus, or even answer a presumtuous question. And I agree with Adam and Tball and whoever else posted the “wait for it” rationale.
Jon, if I offered to double your salary and give you time to learn the position, would you enjoy janitorial duty in a morgue? Cleanup crew at the hog kill in a packing plant? I know, those are not relevant. Neither is MY moving to 3B until a player arrives who can improve the team there and for the future.
Much ado ‘bout nothin … yet. I wish he was better at his position like yesterday, if not sooner, but the fact is, if things progress normally, Andrus can and will move into the shortstop job. When JD thinks he is ready.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
May 20, 2008 12:42 AM CDT
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Derek Jeter does it all the time.
He even moved to an easier position when a much better shortstop was traded to the Yankees. He’s a true leader and a great humanitarian.
by philkid3 on
May 20, 2008 2:11 AM CDT
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LOL!
That’s some greatness right there. Jeter and Young are the two media darlings (on much different scales, obviously) who have been my personal whipping boys for years.
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 8:17 AM CDT
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blalock asked if moving would help the team
thats fine.
the answer being yes isnt.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on
May 19, 2008 11:47 PM CDT
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POTF
+1
"Popularity is fleeting. … Principles are forever." - George W. Bush
by Longhorn on
May 19, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
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What a douche
sometimes with quotes like this, you need to actually hear the words spoken to really understand what someone is saying.
But this….this is pretty loud and clear that he wants no part of it.
Just say something generic like “I’m all for helping the team in everyway I can, I just don’t think that moving to 3rd is the solution RIGHT NOW.”
by Dirk Diggler on May 19, 2008 11:42 PM CDT 0 recs
If I remember
correctly, his wife isn’t even hot.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 19, 2008 11:46 PM CDT 0 recs
Kurt Warner Syndrome
you don’t want to catch it.
W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
by hubcityraider on
May 20, 2008 4:22 PM CDT
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I dont expect him to say yeah i suck, bring it on
but a “i wouldnt be happy, but if thats what the rangers think is best then its my job” would suffice.
you know, like how cats reaction to losing his playing time was that hes not happy, but its partly his fault since he hasnt been hitting well and he will accept it.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on May 19, 2008 11:49 PM CDT 0 recs
Hey idiots
What do you expect MY to say. He is the SS. There is nobody in “the near future” that is going to force him to move to 3B. Read this again…
“If something happens down the road and the team is better served by me moving, I’m sure there will be some discussions,” Young said. “But the time is not now, and I don’t see it in the near future.”
Brandon Boggs 2008 Texas Rangers ROY
by RangerMad on May 19, 2008 11:54 PM CDT 0 recs
nice opener.
Anyway, its his dismissive tone. Hes not the gm, he shouldnt be saying he will or will not move. Read the difference between cat and young’s quotes. Young is dismissive of the mere thought of being moved from SS, cat is upset but accepts losing his playing time.
Granted young is a 4 time all star and cat has fallen off, but young isnt the .330 24 hr semi adequate SS on a very team friendly contract anymore, hes the .300 10 hr bad SS on the extremely player friendly contract. It makes it a lot more annoying to read those kind of quotes.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on
May 20, 2008 12:04 AM CDT
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although
im not in a good ranger state of mind right now.. coming off a 1 run loss where young went 1(single) for 6 with poor defensive play isnt the best time for reactions to young quotes.
Gerald Laird is my hero.
by DSheppard on
May 20, 2008 12:05 AM CDT
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couple things
When the Rangers come to MY and ask him to change positions, he will do it. What choice does he really have? Secondly, I don’t know why people are so concerned about his contract. It has NO effect at all on tickets prices or the ability to sign or extend players. When the time comes, Hicks will increase payroll to sign/extend players that are needed to help the Rangers win. IMHO
Brandon Boggs 2008 Texas Rangers ROY
by RangerMad on
May 20, 2008 12:18 AM CDT
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but
free agency is obviously not the way to build a franchise as far as pitchers are concerned, we really need to focus on letting our minor league talent mature here unless we have guys like J.Hamilton we want to trade for E.Volquez then trading isn’t going to work very well either we need to scout better and be patient with our young pitchers we might have guy that lose 15-20 games (Bonderman,Verlander) but we cant keep giving up on young arms we are starting to scout a lot better now we just have to be patient and let these guys (Hurley,Hunter,Mathis,Harrison,etc…...) come up take there lumps and fight through it I still believe McCarthy has something IF he can stay healthy.
by blueballlefty on
May 20, 2008 12:51 AM CDT
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"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
.500 or bust!
Bad Vibes Kill Rallies!
"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008
by Jayslick on May 20, 2008 12:07 AM CDT 0 recs
Woah
Some of you are acting like this is the apocalypse. Young will move when they tell him to.
Picking a random blog comment and wielding it as a club to bash "blogs" is like picking a random romance novel off an airport bookstore shelf and saying, "This book sucks. Fuck you, Tolstoy -- your medium is worthless!" - Ken Tremendous
by TheBZA on May 20, 2008 12:35 AM CDT 0 recs
JD
doesn’t have the balls to ask him.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on
May 20, 2008 12:36 AM CDT
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Who plays SS?
Picking a random blog comment and wielding it as a club to bash "blogs" is like picking a random romance novel off an airport bookstore shelf and saying, "This book sucks. Fuck you, Tolstoy -- your medium is worthless!" - Ken Tremendous
by TheBZA on
May 20, 2008 12:55 AM CDT
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Jaquin Arias
JUST KIDDING, DON”T WORRY I HAVE NOT LOST MY MIND
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on
May 20, 2008 12:56 AM CDT
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Young
Moving Young to 3B is important for the Rangers future, but it can’t happen until there’s a replacement for him at SS. The only other current option in the entire organization (if you wanted to move Young today) is Vazquez. Young is not moving off of SS for a utility infielder. When the Rangers come up with an external or internal candidate who is more than marginally better than Young in the field, I imagine he’ll embrace the move.
by Randy Richardson on May 20, 2008 12:39 AM CDT 0 recs
MY doesnt Suck....
at SS he might not be the top5 defensive SS in the league but the way our lineup is who would rather have Playing good defense and sucking at hitting Here are the SS i see are better defensively than MY in all major league
-K.Greene S.D.
-O.Cabrera CWS
-E.Renteria Det
-J.Reyes NYM
-D.Jeter NYY
-J.Keppinger Cin
-T.Tulowitzki Col
-J.Rollins Phi
-J.Hardy Mil
-S.Drew Ari
i am sure i left someone off and will get ripped for it, i went solely on defensive ability there are guys with more range (H.Ramirez, etc…) but there FPCT. is way lower than MY, I think when you add in his bat there are only 3-5 of these guys you can argue you would
rather have than MY he adds a lot to this team and hopefully he can continue to do so since he is starting to get payed like it.
by blueballlefty on May 20, 2008 12:44 AM CDT 0 recs
f he would just dive for a damn baseball when its called for instead of sum matador bullshit then i think he could stay there for 3-5 more years.
the fact that the issue is simply a matter of all out effort on every play scares the crap out of me. if he doesnt dive b/c he doesnt have a good enough read on the ball then he should be pulled off the position asap b/c he cant handle the positional requirements to put him in a position to dive and make the play. either that or he is too rich and has too much to lose to go all out every play so thats why he doesnt dive. thats the crap that hank steinbrenner is so pissed about in NYY even if he is an idiot. The teams that are winning and surprising people are teams that are young as crap and havent earned their paycheck yet. these guys go all out.
if mike young goes all out like he did when he was playing for his 2b gig in a fight with Cat in the old days and bust his rear on every play defensively and full out belly dive, i think the guy is a HOFer who can be our SS the next 5 seasons…
he’s the best hitter ive seen since wade boggs. he actually reminds me of Wade a bit these days.
.500 or bust!
"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
-FOTF 5/20/2008
"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008
by Jayslick on
May 20, 2008 1:39 AM CDT
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ok i think they are really comparable
Jeter gets a bad rap he is by no means Ozzie but he rarely makes a mistake
by blueballlefty on
May 20, 2008 2:40 AM CDT
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He also makes many fewer plays than many other shortstops.
He ranked second to last in revised zone rating last year. He gets a bad rap because any analysis you can dig up shows he’s not very good. He deserves the bad rap.
by philkid3 on
May 20, 2008 3:58 AM CDT
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What's funny...
is that MY is currently 5th in the majors in Revised Zone Rating. (2nd in the AL).
by Redcaps on
May 20, 2008 6:28 AM CDT
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If Young
makes that play last night this discussion is much shorter and much less animated.
...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.
by t ball on
May 20, 2008 7:27 AM CDT
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He wants to remain
“Shortstop” Michael Young.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:50 AM CDT 0 recs
Looking at the responses on this thread
makes me understand a little why Sharky goes on his rants. Unbelievable the hatred for Michael Young
by badradiorules on May 20, 2008 7:48 AM CDT 0 recs
Its probably a reaction
to him being the most grossly overrated player in Ranger History, and now the most overpaid since Chan Ho Park.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on
May 20, 2008 7:51 AM CDT
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Two excellent points...
...and just the kind of points that the “rank and file” fans will never acknowledge. All they can regurgitate to you is the crap that Lewin, Grieve, Grant, and the like feed them on a daily basis:
FOTF
“Leader”
Sacrificed for the team by moving to SS
200 hits a year
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 8:21 AM CDT
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Nope, quite useful...
...but must be considered within the proper context, i.e. career OPS+ of 104 and 20+ GIDPs a year.
My point is the average Ranger fan sees 200 hits every year and thinks MY must be an elite offensive player.
He is not.
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 9:09 AM CDT
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True
He’s not an offensive liability, by any means, either.
by badradiorules on
May 20, 2008 9:47 AM CDT
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That's just it
Where is he overrated? He is seldomly spoken about nationally. Yea, he’s made some All-Star teams that he may not have deserved, but that’s about it.
However, bring his name up here and all you will get is hatred. Apparently he is one of the worst players in the league. He’s an awful shortstop who can’t hit. Right now he is second in the AL among SS in RZR and second in the AL in RC. So, it can reasonably be argued that he’s been the best shortstop in the American League so far this year and he hasn’t even hit one of his patented hot streaks.
Is he overpaid? Absolutely. Has it hurt the team to this point? Not yet and the way that we are building with youth, it likely won’t for some time. Is this the root of all the hatred? I guess he should have said no to that contract offer. I don’t know what everyone expects from this guy.
Last year he said that he wanted to win. Everyone hated that.
This year he says that he doesn’t want to change positions tomorrow. Everyone hates that.
I don’t think there is any possible way this guy wins with anyone here.
by badradiorules on
May 20, 2008 8:30 AM CDT
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You can look long and hard
and you will never see a post from me saying he is the worst player in the league.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on
May 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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Not aimed directly at you.
It just amazes me that if anyone throws the name Michael Young in a thread and step back and watch, people fall all over themselves to criticize him. There are 15 negative comments to every positive comment. The guy is statistically the best shortstop in the American League right now. What would happen if he fell to third?
God forbid someone post a comment of his. If there is any way possible that his words can be twisted in a negative manner, everyone seems to dogpile on that. I just don’t get what he’s done to be the most hated sports figure in D/FW.
by badradiorules on
May 20, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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Concur...
Everyone knows what MY brings to the table. He is not overrated. Overpaid yes, but not overrated. He gets credit for being a very good hitter, which happens when you have as many hits as he has had in the past 5 years. He is also seen as a below average defensive SS, which he is.
Like you said in your previous post, they guy can’t win with some here. He wasn’t going to turn down the contract they offered him. His last deal was a bargain for the team, his new deal is a bargain for him. People need to get over it. He doesn’t suck, he will move to 3rd when there is someone to play SS. There isn’t anyone to do that right now so people just need to just deal with it.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on
May 20, 2008 5:21 PM CDT
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+1MM
What’s funny is after hearing the news of his extension 80% of LSB was okay with it. Now it seems like 80% of LSB hates him for it.
by meangreen on
May 21, 2008 9:06 AM CDT
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Well, if it makes you feel any better
If you post to a link of comments, my stance has remained unchanged. Then again, I’m used to my opinions becoming the commonly accepted wisdom after awhile.
Guys in that age range are unlikely to get better, unless they pump PEDs. I don’t think the next five years are going to be that PED friendly.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on
May 21, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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Ahahahahaha
Then again, I’m used to my opinions becoming the commonly accepted wisdom after awhile.
That’s some funny shit. But, yeah I wish he would have linked to the comments.
I think MY is average (above offensively, below defensively) and rapidly declining, but will be near average for at least a couple more seasons upon moving to 3B.
"When I am pissed off, I get angry." - Miles 5/06/08
by Chase Irwin on
May 21, 2008 1:28 PM CDT
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Why should he move?
Soriano didn’t have to. In fact, Young may see this hardline stance as his ticket out of this god-forsaken franchise just like it was for Soriano.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on May 20, 2008 8:49 AM CDT 0 recs
When will one of the local columnists...
...write the inevitable piece on how the MY extension is a far worse value to the Rangers than the A-Rod contract could ever have been?
Oh right, I forgot who our columnists are. Nevermind.
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on
May 20, 2008 9:17 AM CDT
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Well
Not to defend the forum, or to defend Michael Young (at least in unreasonable terms). The critics in the forum have a non-stochastic model of what a position “should be”, and want the Ranger player in that position to be better than the model. The average fan is thrilled to have somebody on the lineup who makes AllStar teams, is usually a leader in counting stats, and is played up by team media. While MY is a little short of the first, and not altogether the perception elicited by the latter, he’s OK.
My only issue is with the fantasy types who “hate” when a player doesn’t *always” exceed reasonable expectations, or the ego extension types who voice that if their player or team tanks, it’s some kind of personal disgrace.
Oh btw … some of the analytical “facts” are shaky. Worst defender, can’t achieve a decent IsoP, etc. are sort of factual, but subject to situational play.
In terms of perceived leadership: Mike speaks rapidly, almost staccato, and nearly in a monotone. He is not a gifted orator. May give the impression of terseness, which I don’t think is accurate. And he voices a LOT more to other players in the dugout and during inning changes than you’d guess, if you aren’t paying att