On Team Chemistry
There's a very lengthy, thought-provoking piece by Derek Zumsteg up on USS Mariner on team chemistry...
Check it out...
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53 comments
Comments
MY
doesn’t help team chemistry…
Milton Bradley greatly improved this team chemistry this year.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you just read a few words...
...and then rattle off whatever comes to mind, without regard to its relevance to what you are responding to?
by Adam J. Morris on May 20, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you ask questions
that you already know the answer to?
by FirebatM3 on May 20, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i started reading it
but couldn’t bring myself to read all of it.
but anyway, i’d take talent and ability over experience and chemistry most of the time.
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on May 20, 2008 3:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Spurs
would like to disagree with you..
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No talent on that squad
nil.
"When I am pissed off, I get angry." - Miles 5/06/08
by Chase Irwin on May 20, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Parker
is trash.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In what context?
They have more recognized and proven talent than the Hornets. Personally, I hate the Spurs, but nobody said they beat the Hornets from chemistry.
by FuturePants on May 20, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reconizable
means nothing.
They have won their championships much on the fact of chemistry.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Says who?
Besides you, that is? So, you are saying Parker, Ginobili, Finley, Horry, and Duncan are technically deficient and low talent players who get by on chemistry with each other? Seriously?
by FuturePants on May 20, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The linked piece above
is about Chemistry in Baseball. You should read it.
by jparks77 on May 20, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm
illiterate
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wear ignorance like a badge
congrats!
by jparks77 on May 20, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the spurs certainly have experience and chemestry
but they also have talent.
they may not have the top talent, but they got a good mix of excellent talent and ability to go with the chemistry and experience.
tim duncan. arguably the top player at his position. all nba 2nd team. always on the 1st or second team.
parker is one of the top point guards. he’s been on the all nba 2nd or 3rd team before i’m sure
ginobli just made the all nba 3rd team.
bruce bowan is an evil mofo but sure plays the D pretty well. great 3 shooter too.
i said i’d take talent and ability over experience and chemistry. there’s always gonna be a mix, you have to find the right mix. but if you pick player by player, you take the talented one over the old glue guy. unless it’s robert horry
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on May 20, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Duncan
is a no talent hack.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Spurs play basketball.
Not baseball.
by philkid3 on May 20, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
for that.
""I want George W. Bush to say, "All things equal, I screwed up this country far worse than I did the Texas Rangers."" - Chris Ballard
by miles on May 20, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're welcome.
Seemed you didn’t catch on.
by philkid3 on May 20, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different sport = Different results
Chemistry in basketball has a lot more of an effect then chemistry in baseball. Apples and oranges.
Derek
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on May 20, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything I know about Chemistry
When Paul O’Neill and Kevin Brown were with losing franchises, and they destroyed property, they were assholes and cancers. When Paul O’Neill and Kevin Brown were winning World Series, and destroying property, they were fiery leaders.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 3:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Zumsteg
He wrote a lengthy piece when he could have just wrote, “It frustrates me that we can’t measure “chemistry”, so it can’t be that important.” I have no idea how much chemistry matters. I’m also sure that some guys are mislabeled as “good clubhouse guys” and vice versa. I think it’s just as arrogant to be dismissive of chemistry as it is misguided to overemphasize it.
by Randy Richardson on May 20, 2008 3:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
should add that
barry bonds = bad chemistry
david eckstein/gritty players = good chemistry
juan gonzalez = bad chemistry
kevin elster = good chemistry
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on May 20, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not quantitative
it’s all opinion. subjective.
send me nominations for the Hall of the Very Good
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on May 20, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that you can't measure it so it isn't important
It’s that you can sign any player, known for their chemistry, and put them in a different setting, and you don’t see the results.
As I said before, Kevin Brown and Paul O’Neill were known as bad guys, until they got their ring.
That’s why this year, when folks objected to MB because of “Chemistry”, I thought it was absolutely a retarded objection. I see little evidence to suggest that “chemistry” carries from team to team, and I’ve been watching baseball for 40+ years.
If you tell me the reason you don’t want to sign a guy is “chemistry”, I’d laugh in your face.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, taking this to its logical conclusion
You would’ve supported a Bonds acquisition during the off-season? I ask more out of curiosity than anything else.
That article was really great. I loved the Sagan quote. It kinda gets me because I would’ve ripped the Rangers had they brought Bonds in to this team. I flat out don’t like the guy, and even though I can agree that chemistry doesn’t exist, I can’t shake this feeling that, if he were around for more than a year, he would negatively impact the team’s long-term development.
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'd have had zero problem with Bonds
had the plan for the offseason been to win this year. The only reason not to get Bonds was because you didn’t think the team would compete, and you didn’t want to impede player development.
But had we got Bonds and cut Catalanotto to make space for him, I would have been absolutely fine with it.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was a strong advocate of going after Bonds.
As long as we could have gotten him to a one-year contract. The thought is that, if we’re going to compete, we have a great hitter. If we’re not (and I assumed we wouldn’t be able to), then in July when he’s putting up a 1,000 OPS, we could flip him to get prospects from a contender that thinks his bat can put them over the hump.
If somehow none of that works out, he’s off the books at the end of the season anyway. I didn’t really see player development being set back too much by having Bonds for a short perdiod of time. It would seem that, most likely, this would have been at Brandon Boggs’s extent. I don’t think that would be the end of the world.
by philkid3 on May 20, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes sense.
I may be misremembering the article here, but it seems like the only parts covered were how outsiders perceive player relationships, rather than how players perceive their relationships with each other.
This really delves into the realm of the ridiculous, but I would be interested to see if young players led by sourpuss veterans develop in a measurably different way than the same young players led by classy veterans. I often get beaten down by co-workers who just pile on at the worst times, and I also have to wonder if this would affect young players as well.
I know the article covers this angle to a degree when the author says that players easily influenced by others usually get weeded out, but I have to wonder.
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have seen lots of guys
perceived to be attitude problems join the Rangers. Carl Everett, Milton Bradley, Ruben Sierra, etc.
I don’t think any of them made a damn bit of difference from a chemistry/development standpoint.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least with Bradley
my impression was that he had a media attitude problem, but was teammate and fan friendly. Maybe this is an incorrect perception of mine.
Nevertheless, I should clarify: I meant bad teammate as perceived by his teammates, and not by any outsider.
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, this is why I said
it delves into the realm of the ridiculous.
We would need an objective psychoanalysis of each player to measure such a situation, which is nearly impossible at best and impossible at worst. And my proposed situation has probably never happened in the history of baseball (a large portion of the team being young guys with a few highly-paid, high-performing players who are all sourpusses/classy players).
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd tend to doubt it
multiple interviews with multiple players seem to indicate that players basicly hang with their friends on a team. Its kind of like at the office, when you have a guy you dont like much. You basicly don’t go out of your way to deal with them, or go out to eat lunch or anything.
little cliques develop, and the “bad guy” in the locker room mostly gets ignored I’d imagine.
I’ve always thought that winning creates chemistry, rather than vice versa. If you come into work knowing that crap is going to rain down on your head all day, its tough to stay in a positive upbeat mood. If you know you are going to make your bonuses, everybody is happier.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
So, continuing the contrived situation:
Let’s assume that young players with sourpuss veterans don’t socialize with sourpuss veterans, but young players with classy veterans do socialize with classy veterans.
This leaves me with one big question to answer: How much do young players benefit from veterans who’ve been around baseball? I really don’t know how baseball teams operate, and how much knowledge transfers from veterans to kids. Is this something that measurably aids player development beyond interaction with coaches?
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubtful
Any “benefit” would be negligible, imo.
"When I am pissed off, I get angry." - Miles 5/06/08
by Chase Irwin on May 20, 2008 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not DJ
But the reason Bonds isn’t gone isn’t necessarily due to “chemistry” (in my opinion). You have three things:
1) possibly unreasonable salary demands;
2) guy who can’t play the field;
3) might be in trial/prison; and
4) public relations nightmare which could affect attendance.
Between 2 and 4, you’ve greatly reduced the teams wanting his services. It should be an AL team and that team needs to be competitive with a need for a DH. The reason I say that is because the public relations issue is less important if the team is winning. If they’re winning, no one cares as much. So their weren’t a lot of teams that fit that criteria. Combine all that with the fact you don’t know hom much he’ll play (between injuries, trial and jail) and his salary and it’s not suprising there’s wasn’t a demand for him.
What happened to my old signature?
by WyoRanger on May 20, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me say
that I think someone who needs an extra bat will be able to look past the 4 three things you have listed, and give him a contract in July. I think that if someone had signed him in the offseason, and were out of contention, they could have picked up a useful prospect by flipping him.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me also soay
that I don’t really think 3 or 4 really impact anything in the long run.
All this public relations stuff is secondary. Winning puts butts in seat.
If Adolph Hitler had five tools and could strike people out, you’d be better off signing him from an attendance standpoint than not as long as he could help you win.
You might not need the Kosher Hot Dog stands though.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I actually considered...
number four as part of the definition of “chemistry”. Do more people come out to see a likable team that loses (such as the Cubs, being called the lovable losers)? On the flip-side, do fans avoid winning teams that have jerks who ignore the media and revile the fanbase (obviously this is less applicable in a major media market, but I considered it for a small market team)?
by jwiscarson on May 20, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with
every part of your post.
by Randy Richardson on May 20, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't read it all
But it made me think of a new article in the USA Today.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/tigers/2008-05-19-paper-tigers_N.htm
The reason I think the USA Today article is relevant is because it talks about how none of the Tigers were paying attention to film of Dan Haren. They were all playing cards, reading a magazine or just sleeping in the clubhouse. Maybe that’s not bad “chemistry” but it seems like indifference, which could be infectious.
What happened to my old signature?
by WyoRanger on May 20, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Chemistry
A spot on article. Chemistry has little if any affect on whether a BASEBALL team wins or not. Other sports like basketball and football, you can make a case that chemistry is an important factor. As the article states, baseball is so much of an individual game, that teammates don’t generally have an effect on the play of another player.
Derek
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on May 20, 2008 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Team chemistry
Still as stupid now as it was in 02.
by cmkelly29 on May 20, 2008 5:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good read
And I endorse the first comment, that “Chemistry is a term used by people who want others to think they are knowledgeable about baseball” or words to that effect. I also like the tiny dragon simile, since sure, chemistry exists, but not by itself. It is the result of any number of combinations of things, foremost of which is winning. And secondly (probably) the desire to stand out among tough competitors. Thirdly, it’s cool to have your mates’ back. Fourth, concession to facing adversity together. Etc.
Then again, what do I know ?!?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on May 20, 2008 5:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You know enough to make a bright post.
So that’s something.
by philkid3 on May 20, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
you guys are drunk way too much happy hour for some of you guys if you are really old enough to drink. to even consider Barry Bonds is a joke. his time is over.
¡yo soy Horsedooty!
I soloed in the mile high club.
by Sr Horsedooty on May 20, 2008 6:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it would be terrible
if he hit like he did when he was washed up last year, .276/.480/.565.
Who needs that when we can call up a .158/.304/.395 DH instead.
"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck
by DJCahill on May 20, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Concur
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on May 21, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steroids
I thought the article was very well written. I think it could also apply equally to another topic…..production resulting from steroid use.
--Brian
by BCanfield on May 21, 2008 7:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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