Friday morning things

by Adam J. Morris on May 9, 2008 10:38 AM CDT Comment 63 comments

Yeah, that was exciting.

Richie Sexson apologized for throwing his helmet, but seems to have an unrealistic idea of Kason Gabbard's command:

"I'm 6-8," Sexson said. "What are we talking about here? We're talking about a guy who can hit the corners at will and all of a sudden he's up around my face?"

If Gabbard could hit the corners at will, he'd have more Ks and fewer walks this season.

Jeff at Lookout Landing says what Sexson did was dumb, and also makes some good observations about how dumb baseball brawls make fans act.

I know lots of people here got bent out of shape about what some of the M's fans said at Lookout Landing about the fight last night, but before anyone gets too high and mighty, remember how many people thought Frankie Francisco throwing a chair into the stands in Oakland was awesome, how many still defend him for doing it, and remember that the Ranger manager at the time wouldn't even come out and say anything critical about the fact it happened until upper management intervened and told him passive-aggressively endorsing throwing chairs wasn't acceptable.

There's a fair amount of discussion about the fight at BTF.

Anyway, the fight overshadowed what was a damn good game for the Rangers, who now have thrown back-to-back shutouts and crept within 4 games of .500.

Evan Grant quotes Jon Daniels as saying the Dallas Observer blog post that claimed Ron Washington's fate is already decided, and that Nolan is deciding between Mike Hargrove, Don Baylor, Jim Tracy, and Jackie Moore as his replacement, is full of inaccuracies, and that Washington's status won't be reviewed until the All Star Break, at the earliest.

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BTF

Too bad the BTF thread is getting hijacked by the ‘03 Yanks/BoSox scuffle. Although this comment made me laugh:

Sexson should get a 20-game suspension, although Seattle fans might argue it should be 30

by Excel Hearts Choi on May 9, 2008 10:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

as bad as sexson has been lately

if miguel cairo is there replacement… yikes.

Gerald Laird is my hero.

by DSheppard on May 9, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the whole time

i’ve been thinking about how much this really helps the M’s… Get Sexson out of the lineup.

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on May 9, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unless you are actually one of the people who said the chair thing was ok

I dont see how its relevant what other ranger fans said. I personally never defended the chair throwing. Any ranger fan who said it was ok was foolish. So were M’s fans and braodacsters last night. And jeff.

Anyway, norm had a really crazy rant about the dallas observer thing. Was weird. Didnt really warrant a 45 minute rant about jon daniels.

Greg Smith tonight… hopefully it goes better this time..

Gerald Laird is my hero.

by DSheppard on May 9, 2008 10:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

One /could/ argue that...

the chair throwing was provoked. I don’t condone the chair-throwing either, but I can see how Francisco could have gotten into his “rage state” given the personal nature of some of the stuff that was rumored to have been said.

The only thing that provoked Sexson was what his own pitcher had already done and his own expectations of what would happen (however wrong they were).

by cjcheng on May 9, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chair-gate

the whole chair thing was stupid, i understand that some of the things said were HIGHLY offensive… but the players should know better than to fight with fans. Call an usher and have the people walked out. there is never a need to throw a chair in the stands or refer to the player that did so as “beastly” because of it.

"When we're mad we'll use our words. Then the rest of the world will play nice with us. And the only boom-booms will be in our pants." - Ralph Wiggum

by rentz on May 9, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I whole heartedly agree that Francisco was completely in the wrong, and should have controlled himself.

I’m just saying that the difference between Fx2’s actions and Sexson’s is that the target of the rage had more to do with Fx2’s response than with Sexson’s rexponse.

I am also of the opinion that rage, in general, is not a good thing.

by cjcheng on May 9, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The difference was

Sexson’s response was much more justified, and there was absolutely no justification for what Sexson did.

"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck

by DJCahill on May 9, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmm...

one of those “Sexson”’s is wrong

by JBImaknee on May 9, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I worded it poorly

There is no justification for what Sexson did.

There is even less for what that thug Francisco did.

"Before I leave, I once again condemn the despicable buffoonery of D.J. Cahill." - Huck

by DJCahill on May 9, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

One could argue that...

...having a sick son in the hospital (Sexson missed Wednesday’s game because he was at the hospital with his child) had Sexson already on edge and not exactly in the best frame of mind to begin with, and that’s more of an excuse than the possibility that people may have been saying certain things in Oakland.

by Adam J. Morris on May 9, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Brocail

and his wife suffered…... what was allegedly reported, then that could have had him just as much on edge as Sexson would’ve been. Now, you reference the mere possibility that someone said something and that is a good point… we don’t know. Yet, if it was said, I can understand his rage and the support of his teammates…. sans chair throwing.

There is no such thing as global warming. David Murphy was cold, so he turned the sun up.

by SarasotaRanger on May 9, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

I can see what you’re saying.
In the end, neither of us will ever be in either Sexson’s or Francisco’s head and can’t presume to know what flashed through either. We can only condemn both actions as being unsportsman-like, dangerous, and uncalled for.

by cjcheng on May 9, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

its an interesting defense of sexson

but i was talking about the fan reaction to the charge, which I dont think that factored into initially.

Gerald Laird is my hero.

by DSheppard on May 9, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also,

James Shields vs. 6-0 Joe Saunders (who I was ripped by many on here for supporting his ability) at the Trop tonight. Go Rays.

There is no such thing as global warming. David Murphy was cold, so he turned the sun up.

by SarasotaRanger on May 9, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Saunders and Santana

No one seems to be talking about this too much (here, anyway) but those two have pretty much helped LAA not lose a step with Escobar and Lackey out. They’ve performed much better than expected.

...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.

by t ball on May 9, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oops...

more like Saunders and Kazmir Saturday night.

There is no such thing as global warming. David Murphy was cold, so he turned the sun up.

by SarasotaRanger on May 10, 2008 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Broussard is an idiot

but so was Francisco. I don’t care what was said, you do not throw chairs at fans.

That Sexson quote was my favorite, too. Gabbard had 4 walks last night, and threw 30 balls vs. 33 strikes. That’s hitting the corners at will? My favorite comments from fans (here and elsewhere): Sexson needs lasik, and the Mariners should be punished by having Sexson in the lineup every single game.

...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.

by t ball on May 9, 2008 10:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Mike Hargrove?

Ugh.

by JBImaknee on May 9, 2008 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Would he even come back...

I thought he was “burnt out” last year and ready to call it a career. I guess guys change their mind all the time and a year has passed, but I don’t know if he’d even be willing to give it another run.

by TexasTiger on May 9, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So?

Who’s going to the game Monday to yell obscenities at Sexson and rush the field when Padilla throws at Sexson’s head? We can only pray Sexson appeals his suspension and is in the lineup.

White Women!

by nikpin on May 9, 2008 11:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

From Yahoo sports

Game of the Day: Rangers 4, Mariners 0

When in doubt, fight: The Mariners are headed for 14-22. Need a spark, need a spark. Something, anything. ... I know! Let’s keep playing like crap and start a fight. It worked in “Slap Shot!”

Tall drink of water: Richie Sexson stands 6-foot-8, which means he has a big strike zone. It also means he has his head in the clouds sometimes. With the Mariners and Rangers feeling themselves on the brink of a fight, Sexson started it by charging the mound and throwing his helmet at pitcher Kason Gabbard. Benches cleared. Sexson appeared to be the only guy who got in any punches, too. Guess here is that he’ll be seeing the Commish someday.

Impaired: The only problem with Sexson’s timing was, Gabbard threw a pitch up, up, way up, that would have been a strike were it 2 feet lower. Sexson, channeling an above-average Kevin Nealon skit and using the judgment that has produced his 1,200-plus career strikeouts, thought the ball was at his head. Yeah, if his head were the size of Mr. Met’s, OK. But Sexson’s head was safely inside the batter’s box. Later, Sexson called his own actions — relating to throwing the helmet — “chicken [bleep].” At least he recognized that. Now, if he could just tell a ball from a strike to his head.

by laxtonto on May 9, 2008 11:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I love this line:

[Sexson] using the judgment that has produced his 1,200-plus career strikeouts, thought the ball was at his head

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on May 9, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really hope they sit down with Padilla

and make sure his head is screwed on right before his SEA game.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see a Ranger hitter plunked early just to provoke Padilla to retaliate. The threat of him going nuts makes for good drama, but I’d much rather see him respond by shredding their lineup for 7 or 8 (or 9) innings.

by bhudson on May 9, 2008 11:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, this fight...

...reminds me of the opening rounds in the Rangers – Angels feuds of the last couple seasons (which usually swirled around Padilla in some capacity.)

"Gabbard's not gonna hit Richie Sexson. You got a guy coming up there who can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. And you think hes gonna throw at HIM?" -TAG

by FuturePants on May 9, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can see that

M’s trying to knock out our pitching staff by tackling one starter and getting another suspended. What’s next… kidnapping Millwood from his kickboxing gym?

There is no such thing as global warming. David Murphy was cold, so he turned the sun up.

by SarasotaRanger on May 9, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Padilla’s been fantastic and we’re already down three or four guys in the rotation. The last thing this team needs is to have its #2 pitcher get suspended for a month or more.

I really hope the Rangers do the classy thing here.

by jwiscarson on May 9, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its pretty impressive

how the tone on Washington has shifted so quickly. I haven’t had time to watch a game in a while, so I can’t tell if the general play has gotten better. But to say he has until the all-star break doesn’t seem likely to me.
He’s just a 6-9 game losing streak away from being axed.

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on May 9, 2008 11:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You think jon daniels is lying?

Its not evan grant saying hes safe till the allstar break, its JD.

Anyway, the play has been a lot better
far fewer errors, fewer walks given out, much better bullpen, more timely hitting… 7-3 in the last 10.

A 6-9 game losing streak and the media/fans will be all over him again but the all star break isnt that far off, im sure he can last till then if JD says thats the earliest. If we go on such a bad run to demand he be fired, its not like we will be in contention and need to bring in a new manger the next day to try to make the playoffs.

Gerald Laird is my hero.

by DSheppard on May 9, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

I didn’t really write that to accuse JD of lying, but that I think he could be put in a situation where he is forced to evaluate Washington sooner.

"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2

by tdi1985 on May 9, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doubt it

I think JD is being serious. I think that if the ASB comes and the team is out of it or playing lousy, there will be wholesale changes, probably starting with Wash, and then followed up by trades of some veterans like Milwood, Padilla, Bradley, and maybe even Blalock or MY. Certainly Cat, Shelton and Laird will be dumped in some way, and we’ll see the kids. all of them, or at least many of them. We’ll see Chris Davis and Nelly Cruz and Taylor Teagarden and Salty as the starter and Hurley and Mathis and maybe even Elvis Andrus and Warner Madrigal. Won’t that be fun.

by iblum on May 9, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wanna be, wanna be

I don’t have an issue with Riche writing whatever he does for the Observer, or any other form of media. I don’t follow his work anyway. But doesn’t it seem that this is the second or third time he’s gotten attention for “undercover” type articles about the Rangers (that turn out to be hearsay or horse (say)? On one a while back I sent a questioning email only to get a snippy reply of the “I know what I’m talking about” nature. I just shrugges and let it go.

Is there a subspecies of wannabe called wannabe wannabe?

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on May 9, 2008 11:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I wonder

if Evan made any attempt to independently confirm any of Richie’s “work”? The MN should be (IMO) held to a higher standard than the tabloid Observer.

by Jea103 on May 9, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I emailed EG last night

about his article online. This was his reply…

I’m simply reporting what is on the Observer’s website. And by naming the Observer, I’m naming my source. All quotes in my story are attributed. Jon Daniels went on the record about the issue. That to me was enough.

Brandon Boggs 2008 Texas Rangers ROY

by RangerMad on May 9, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bush League Reporting?

What a cop-out by EG. He wouldn’t be able to write an article like the one the Observer did, so why should it be ok to reference it? Typical crap you see with the media these days though. A lack of integrity and general laziness.

by rcreative on May 9, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with EG

It’s Evan’s job to bring Rangers’ news to the attention of the fans. It was being discussed on the Observer and Evan thought it was worth mentioning. He is not reinforcing the article’s shaky sources, he is merely bringing it to the attention of his readers, allowing them to make their own decision.

Not everybody visits LSB. We have a lot of loyal fans who are ready to make a Fanpost at the sign of any news. A lot of Ranger fans count on Evan to bring them their info. EG catches wayyyy too much flack on here IMO.

Picking a random blog comment and wielding it as a club to bash "blogs" is like picking a random romance novel off an airport bookstore shelf and saying, "This book sucks. Fuck you, Tolstoy -- your medium is worthless!" - Ken Tremendous

by TheBZA on May 9, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's wrong with what EG did?

As far as I’m concerned EG did exactly what I would have done in that position. You hear about some guy saying that the Manager is going to be fired, you go to the GM and say, “is this true?” JD can only have 4 reactions to this. 1) its true, Wash is gone, and we’re reviewing replacements while Wallbeck is interim. 2) its horse, we haven’t spoken about replacing Wash since last month, and we aren’t going to talk about it till at least the ASB. 3) “I haven’t seen the article, and I have no comment on it except to say that Wash has our complete backing”. (non-answer that 90% of GM’s would give). 4) I haven’t heard anything from the front office on Washington’s status, but if word comes down, you’ll be the first to know. (absolutely the last thing you want to hear from a GM, as that it indicates that he’s not in control of the managers job. Also the thing that Brian Cashman might say, in that it deflects attention up the chain. But you’ll never hear it from JD, because he believes that this is his team.)

What we got is number 2, typical JD refreshing directness and candor.

by iblum on May 9, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If this is the worst article Evan ever writes

then our DMN beat writer deserves to have a hall of fame vote.

Seriously, if you ever read Fire Joe Morgan, you’ll see just how lucky we are that our worst area writer is TR Sullivan, whose most egregious infraction (in recent memory) was to suggest that RBIs should determine the MVP.

I think Grant’s reasoning is fine. It’s Rangers news and worth a mention, if nothing more. Mainstream media gets away with unnamed sources in sensitive situations, and although baseball is nowhere near as serious as national/international politics, this isn’t ridiculously out of step, either.

by jwiscarson on May 9, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the difference

When newspapers use unnamed sources they are using their newspaper’s credibility (and their credibility as a reporter) to get away with it. If you use someone else’s unnamed sources, even if you attribute where you got it from, you are essentially saying that your newspaper stands behind the work of the Dallas Observer, something I’m sure the DMN doesn’t do. I don’t see how an editor didn’t intervene when he saw that.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 9, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay

I see what you mean now. That’s a fair point.

by jwiscarson on May 9, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see that is the case

This is sort of a meta-level argument, but I think that once a story is out there and circulating, addressing the fact that the story is out there doesn’t mean you are endorsing the story.

by Adam J. Morris on May 9, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree to an extent

And I’m glad he updated it with JD’s response, but there’s still a credibility issue in my mind.

This is an extreme example, but if I saw an article in the Fort Stockton Gazette citing “reliable unnamed Cabinet members” saying that George W. Bush had an affair with Hillary Clinton, I wouldn’t publish it if I was a reporter. Maybe the newspaper isn’t putting their “credibility” out there if they attribute it to Fort Stockton, but I think readers have a right to expect only reasonably reliable news out of the Dallas Morning News, even if you cover your ass and say where you got it from. Merely putting it out there gives whatever was reported some publicity. Would we be talking about this non-rumor if the DMN didn’t post it? For a brief moment, I’m sure some of us thought, hey what if this is true?

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 9, 2008 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Discussion in progress

Would we be talking about this non-rumor if the DMN didn’t post it?

Yes, there was already at least one FanPost discussing the Observer article.

by mgb5 on May 9, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's fair

Would the general public be doing the same?

Let me back away from my stance a little by saying that I think sports journalism operates in a bit of a different realm than regular journalism. The rumor-based nature of a lot of the goings on I think changes the rules on what should/shouldn’t be published. So while I don’t agree with it, I think it’s understandable the Grant went ahead with it.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 9, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken

We = us on this blog
vs.
We = general sports fan (sports page reader, DMN blog reader)

I assumed the former meaning, as opposed to your intention of the latter meaning.

Good discussion of the merits of reporting on such “rumors”.

by mgb5 on May 9, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Added information

If all EG did was pass on the information in the Observer piece, then he is, in effect, repeating a rumor. Depending on his knowledge of the story and its sources, that may be good enough (or having independent corroboration).

Instead, it seems he asked JD about the story and got a substantive on-record reply with significant new information (job status won’t be evaluated until All-Star break, if then). In order to report this information, he has to reference the Observer article which led to it in all fairness.

by mgb5 on May 9, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think some people are interpreting the article wrong

The article basically says this: “The Dallas Observer made a blog post saying that Washington is as good as fired right now, and Jon Daniels says that’s crap. JD also gave some inside info that helps show that it’s not just GM cliche-speak.”

by Inkara1 on May 9, 2008 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was it a blog post or an article?

As a journalist, I’m OK with it if it was a blog post — even though it’s a newspaper, it’s the same standards we would expect from LSB posting something similar.

If it’s an article … that’s inexcusable.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 9, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just looked it up, and...

...it was an article. Initially, I agreed with your comment in that a story from another blog shouldn’t be newsworthy, but after reading the article, the subject was covered fairly and EG did a very good job to not make the article into a gossip column.

So you don’t have to scroll back up to AJM’s original entry, here’s a link to the article:

http://tinyurl.com/5cybkn

I don’t think it can be said that EG was trying to blow this up into something bigger – he just used his sources to clarify whether the original Observer blog post was true or false, and I think the answers he got were very forthright and fair to everyone involved.

"Hello win column..."

by rangersfan34 on May 9, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My recollection as well

just another nail in the coffin of credibility there.

...and curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid git.

by t ball on May 9, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

How is it that Richie Whitt has scooped the DMN or T.R. Sullivan on this story? The thing that disappoints me is that JD bothered to dignify the article with a response. I am not big fan of Ron Washington, but why is it that JD feels that he needs to further undercut RW’s (already shaky) job security by publicly announcing when RW’s job will be reviewed again?

by j-r-d on May 9, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Observer

Good observation Ed. Another point I’d like to mention is the Observer just launched their new sports blog “Sportatorium” this week. Could this just be a ploy to draw in new readers?

by TheBZA on May 9, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are they going to hire Doyle King?

Baseball Time in Arlington

by jamcadbury on May 9, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everyone should try to hire Doyle King

by TheBZA on May 9, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What really bothers me

about this Observer story is the “unnamed sources”. Presumably they are in the Rangers front office. Why would someone tell this stuff to Whitt now? What was their motivation? Is there someone in the Rangers front office out to sabatoge Daniels?

Brandon Boggs 2008 Texas Rangers ROY

by RangerMad on May 9, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the funny thing

i’ve never even been over to LL until someone over here said they were being idiots over there about the brawl…

just got ownaged

by Longhorn on May 9, 2008 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The thing is

normally, Jeff at LL is a pretty good blogger. I much prefer that site to the A’s (too chaotic) and Angel’s (too moronic) SBN sites.

But I think the M’s fans have just been completely broken by this season. Unlike us, they were teased at the beginning of the year about being a contender, so they feel even more dejected.

by JBImaknee on May 9, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LL

I headed over to LL first thing this morning, and found Jeff’s post right on the money. Like AJM said, he raised some interesting points on baseball fights in general.

As far as any Mariner fans “cheering” the event or discussing an “ass kicking,” wow want a freaking medal? The 6’7” 1B tackled the injured SP after throwing a helmet at him. That’s the equivalent of me bragging about beating up a 15 year old.

by TheBZA on May 9, 2008 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

best line of the night from TAG

Boy that is a gutless 6’7" .200 hitting formerly good player. What a joke

Boy that is a gutless 6’7" .200 hitting formerly good player. What a joke--TAG

by dmurphnextrusygreer on May 9, 2008 12:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think it was when TAG said Sexson couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat

Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.

by WhipSmart on May 9, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last night's game and Wash

Maybe I’m just a cliché baseball fan, but I think the best way to stick it to another team is to beat their top two pitchers, which is precisely what we did this road trip. I don’t want to see Paddy or any other Rangers pitcher take an M’s player out. We’re a better team than that.

Regarding Wash’s job security:

I honestly feel like the tipping point here were those two back-to-back, late inning losses in Boston on April 19-20. We had leads late in the game in both cases and the bullpen crapped the bed. Say we win those two games and split the Boston series. That means we’re 18-18 instead of 16-20, and that seven-game losing streak is four games instead (which would have left us with a 9-14 record at the end of that streak).

Are we anywhere near as pissed about Wash if this team’s at .500 right now? Maybe I’m forgetting something else (lineups and defensive mistakes aside, I mean a particular game) that brought all this to a head, but I seem to recall most of this vitriol starting around that sweep.

by jwiscarson on May 9, 2008 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs