Ummm...what?
I saw this item linked at BTF...some highlights:
Now that we're on the topic of baseball, have you seen Josh Hamilton?
* * *
Why isn't he in prison?
* * *
Well, you see, what makes Josh Hamilton's story so remarkable is that somewhere between receiving a bonus of over $3 million when he was drafted out of high school in 1999 and chasing baseball's triple crown in 2008, Josh and his parents were in a car wreck. His mom and dad had to go home to Raleigh to heal and Josh was left alone with lots of money, lots of spare time as he recovered from his injuries, and little guidance. So he started hanging out at tattoo parlors and eventually became addicted to crack. Really.
His poor personal decisions got him banned from baseball and coupled with his injuries took nearly four years of his career and his life. In one of the stories he tells, he had to borrow $3000 from his father in law to pay a drug dealer. This is enough money to buy at least 20 grams of crack. Simple possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine carries a mandatory FEDERAL sentence of 5 years. So Josh Hamilton should be serving a 20 year prison sentence now instead of telling his victory story of overcoming addiction, finding Christ, and pummeling baseballs.
So why isn't Josh Hamilton rotting away in prison?
Barack Obama would probably tell you it's because he's white; his preacher certainly would. McCain would probably tell you what a shame it is that Josh waved the "white flag of surrender" and finally gave his problems to God instead of fighting an endless, losing effort on his own while destroying all good will he had built up over the years. And what would some kook like Ron Paul likely tell you? Josh's decision to use drugs should have never put him in prison to begin with, especially a federal prison. But what's the real reason Josh Hamilton isn't in prison? Because he didn't get caught.
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166 comments
Comments
It's all so clear now!
Barack Obama hates Josh Hamilton.
by jamcadbury on Jun 18, 2008 1:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Man
That guy’s inanity has hynotized me. I can’t quit reading. I personall like this one:
The War on Anything can’t be won by the Government.
Really?
I guess it was the beatings made me wise. But I'm not about to give thanks, or apologize.
by TheJeezus on Jun 18, 2008 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The War on Drugs
has been going on since at least Nixon, and the War on Poverty since at least Johnson, and they were prolly going on before then.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think The Wire summed it up best...
... one character said you couldn’t really call the war on drugs a war. His partner asked him why and he said, “because wars end.”
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on Jun 18, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Baltimore they would say...
...”It’s all in the game.”
Right around the time all the young talent is ready to contend is when the organization will realize that Ron Washington is the wrong man for the job.
by Chad Crudup on Jun 18, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The game is the game
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to add some context
it’s basically just a libertarian railing against the War on Drugs. So, it’s a young, idealistic Adam Morris.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
actually
i don’t really understand why adam is disparaging the author. Isn’t he making a salient libertarian point that there should be no war on drugs?
Hell, his point should resonate with social liberals. But for good fortune, Hamilton could have been in jail for a victimless crime, which should make people completely re-think drug penalties.
Although, the author is not going to resonate too well with liberals if he keeps taking shots at Obama like that.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The war on drugs isn't the point of the author's rant
by Telegraph on Jun 18, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree
Josh’s decision to use drugs should have never put him in prison to begin with, especially a federal prison.
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't he saying that's what Ron Paul would say?
Not himself?
by philkid3 on Jun 18, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he agrees with that statement in the end
evidenced by a fairly lengthy article agreeing with ron paul.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care what his point was
He’s a terrible writer
I guess it was the beatings made me wise. But I'm not about to give thanks, or apologize.
by TheJeezus on Jun 18, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that definitely needed some context
The article is still a bit of a rambling mess, but at least he had a point in there somewhere.
The Obama references were pretty ludicrous though.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
besides that though
there isn’t much I disagree with. I’d rather the government not go after drug users. I’d rather the government not pursue steroids inquiries. I’d rather the government not spend so much money on the war on drugs. I’d rather the government recognize the hypocrisy of stiff drug penalties that can ruin lives while most of them have probably probably used illicit drugs in the past.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps attacking supply
Isn’t the most effective method. I’ll grant you that. But I don’t understand why you’d just dismiss out of hand any attempt to regulate substances which can, without much proximate analysis necessary, endanger and kill others.
Also, your last sentence is a pretty shallow argument, to say the least.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why?
you don’t think it is unfortunate that a congressman that has violated crimes that carry mandatory drug sentences also supports those sentences?
All of these people feel like it’s some dark past that they’ve left behind and that they are completely different now. Maybe, but just given the sheer number of people that have a drug history, it seems better to appreciate the fact that most people seem to be able to overcome drug addiction, usually without the help of anything except maturity.
Yet, if police were actually effective at enforcing the laws, or in most cases if these congressman had just succumbed to worse luck, they’d could go to jail, completely ruining their lives and never giving themselves the chance at turning their lives around. Sure, they might not do drugs after jail, but they also, in most cases, wouldn’t have the opportunity to become congressmen.
That is a hypocrisy.
And, I’m attacking the policy of going after drug users. mandatory sentences for possession laws. i don’t mind the war on drugs but I also think they have a bloated budget and they don’t seem too effective.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i should clarify
that if you are addicted to drugs, you probably do need help overcoming. but i think a lot of these people used drugs without succumbing to addiction, and therefore were able to overcome it without much help. also, even if they did overcome it at NA, seems like a better way to go than jail.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have
A fundamental misunderstanding of the role of Congress. It is not a parental institution that deigns to give us law. It’s a body which codifies the will of the majority. I hope to avoid a prolonged disupute on this point because of incumbency advantages, etc. Suffice it to say, we make a presumption that the laws enacted reflect the will of the majority by virtue of their election results.
As such, it makes absolutely no difference whether or not a member violated or continues to violate the substance of a provision he votes for. We’re codifying wills here, not passing immutable moral jugement.
As a matter of policy, I have objections to mandatory sentencing, but the power to enact those statutes or enforce them is beyond question.
And nobody denies that the “war” could be run much more effectively and intelligently, but that doesn’t necessitate throwing the baby out too.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you're British, judgment has only one e
Sorry, I’m an awful pedant.
by jwiscarson on Jun 18, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm under no obligation
To follow the constructs of a single man’s version of the English language.
So, I’m quite American, and I spell it “Judgement” and “Color” and feel no shame at the tension between the two.
The “e” is certainly NOT superfluous.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plenty of
U.S. jurisdictions spell judgement my way.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true.
Webster had a few good ideas, but some of our spelling differentiations are obtuse (this being one of them). Nevertheless, American English does evolve at a rather rapid pace, and until linguistic powers that be say that judgment has fallen from grace, I will abide their decision.
by jwiscarson on Jun 18, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
every paralegal "test" I took
had you give the correct spelling of judgment.
First test I took in legal writing was a grammar/spelling test and they had the word judgment on it.
So, be a maverick and see how far it gets you
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never said I'd do it
In an environment where I work on behalf of others.
I realize I’m on a relative island on this issue. I don’t force it on anyone else, or accept the consequences of appearing unlearned in a working environment.
If you all think I’m unlearned, I can live with that.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Associated Press Stylebook specifically says it's judgment, not judgement.
So that’s the definitive answer for those of us in the news industry.
by Inkara1 on Jun 18, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
In America, it is traditionally accepted as being judgment. I accept that in all uses but my own private ones.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
AP style also uses "Web site"
capital “W”
So take that with a grain of salt. :P
(But yeah, it’s judgment)
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your theory of repsentative democracy
is only one view. there is a competing view of republican government that says that a Congressman’s role is to look out for the overall good of the people but having liberties to decide specifically what policies would promote that good. congressman don’t necessarily have to poll their constituents before makign decisions.
regardless, the hypocrisy exists within society too. for example, it exists with any upper middle class family that supports mandatory jail sentences for drug crimes but knows that their kids are blowing their allowances and coke and weed. this has been covered in a well known movie so I won’t belabor the point but society as a whole could deal with the drug use issue better and a congressman wouldn’t be wrong in setting the example, even if it was in a speech.
and, again, I never said the war on drugs should be stopped. just that so much money shouldn’t go towards it.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
My “theory” has nothing to do with the delegate vs. trustee split. Both agree that the elected official represents the will of the people who elected him, whether that’s by the authority to make his own decisions, or to be bound by the ebb and flow of micromanaged popular opinion.
Even granting your point, they are made accountable by virtue of their elections.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
accountable to the overall good of the people
it’s not out of the realm of possibility for a congressman to think, “I really don’t think Biff and Muffy (I’m awesome) want their kids to go to jail and i’m going to prevent them from playing the odds on whether their kids get caught.”
or, more accurately,
“I really don’t think society as a whole benefits by severely punishing an offense that 75% of youngsters commit but only gets enforced with the underprivileged individuals of society.”
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and getting back to my original point
a congressman that has experienced drug use should be more in tune with the issue but also should be able to recognize that jail sentences that prevent rehabilitation cannot be good for society, especially if they would not have been good for themselves.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Where do you pull that claim out of? Good for society? I don’t see why it’s any worse for society than putting people in prison for any other crime, or putting them in prison in general.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the difference with other crimes
is that drug use is victimless. i personally favor prison as a way to prevent criminals from committing further harm on society. i don’t see the harm that a guy smoking crack commits on society. prevent him from sucking down welfare or getting benefits from government (if that’s your feeling on it) or try to force him into rehab. But, don’t just send him to jail, which almost always results in a lesser life.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think
That a substance which fundamentally alters your level of thinking and capacity for rational thought can endanger others?
Driving is just the easiest example to shoot that down.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure
if they commit a crime while on the drug, punish them. but if they are just possessing it or using it in their own home, what do I care?
alcohol is the easiest example. have you ever gotten drunk? do you think you are a risk to society when you are drinking?
Hamilton was an addict. but there are plenty of people that use drugs like coke or crack through college but then give it up eventually, having never done harm to anybody while on those drugs.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
As does the penal code, that there should be a tiered structure for punishment, depending on the potential consequences of use.
But some substances have such a high tendency for abuse, misuse and third-party injury that the legislature feels they should be cut off completely, rather than piecemealing a reactionary policy which worsens the general protection of society.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i think
that many of these drugs that are deigned super dangerous are not that different than alcohol and they aer the same substances abused by many people innocuously.
And, it is a blindness that prevents congressman from seeing that their own innocuous use is representative of a wider societal use that is also usually innocuous.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure why
You keep assuming that all, or even most, congressmen were drug users.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
struggling?
i never made that claim. I do think many did, not most. Obviously a generational issue, too.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i did say most earlier
i meant many.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Protection" and "security"
are mere illusions, ultimately.
As a matter of policy, I’d hate to pay much for either and take my chances.
No federal government, of this size, will win a war on drugs.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most people
Including me, are not willing to take their chances with it. I don’t want to be killed because some escape-crazed 20-something loser feels he needs to expand his mind while he’s driving down the freeway.
While I of course acknowledge the high rate of drug use already prevalent, I don’t want to just throw my hands up in the air and say “fuck it” because of that.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
but I shouldn’t be forced to pay for your safety.
I should have a choice whether I want to pay for mine, and to who I’m willing to pay for enforcement, but I’ll digress.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but arent
there always drug users getting out daily, even if they were in for 20?
or are you suggesting that in that amount of time theyve “cleaned up”
I dont see how you are safer due to a 20 year jail sentence…...unless you can show me where the prisons have been successful in “rehabbing” the inmates
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, live in fear then
all those crack addicts would be driving the streets if it hadn’t been for stiff drug penalties.
but you’re not scared of the drunk driving situation apparently.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is ab03 replying to?
I can’t tell with the lack of indentation.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
You acknowledged my point.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, do what we do with Alcohol
penalize folks who Drive while impaired, but let em get messed up at home. I have no idea why the standard for recreational drugs is much different than the standards for alcohol.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lots of theories on this
but isn’t it that alcohol was so rampant that it couldn’t be regulated but drug use wasn’t as much (and was more of a hippie thing) so it could?
Well, drug use really isn’t a hippie thing anymore.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
That’s not the case.
Major drug regulation occured long before the ‘60s and ‘70s.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sort of
most national regulations occurred right around then.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true.
But I’ll accept your point.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No thanks.
While I acknowledge an increase in regulations at that time, it was by no means the beginning. Trust me.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for certain drugs it was
it was the genesis of national regulations for marijuana, for instance. some drugs were invented at that time.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey man
I think you’re a smart guy, but you’re just wrong here.
Look it up. Marijuana has been illegal at some level of government for as long as America has existed.
Federally, it got its first major regulation in 1937, though it was demonized long before that.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
demonized and regulated but not federally criminalized until 1970.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i guess i said regulated before
I meant criminalized. the point is, there was a time in 1969 where marijuana was completely legal.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
either way
substitute hippies for vipers or some other group not part of the mainstream
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nixon really stepped up the war on drugs
Of course, a lot of that was trying to stop the Anti-vietnam protest movement. Couldn’t arrest them for protesting, but if they were on drugs at the time, they could arrest them for that.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure heroin
was introduced during the war, too, so that probably played a factor.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK not introduced
but made more cheaply available. Popularized, I suppose.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, having the CIA help import it
probably didn’t hurt in making it Cheaply available.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have a link for that?
I’ll take your word, but I would like to read up on it.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a reply to Cahill
2.0 spazzed.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just look up Air America
or CIA and Heroin.
You’ll find plenty of links.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the prison system
is a complete failure…..
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than turning more folks
from taxpayers to tax burdens, im not sure what the war on drugs has done. We’ve gone from around 20K total federal prisoners with 17% of them being drug offenders in ‘70 to 150K now, with 54% of them being drug offenders.
Not sure, other than burning money, what the payoff is.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's
Ridiculous logic.
That doesn’t take into account inchoate crimes, underlying offenses, increased sentencing statutes which raise the minimum time served, and numerous other factors.
Don’t throw out meaningless numbers to validate your claim.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We certainly have increased mandatory minimums.
I’m not sure they have helped either.
Are you saying drug Convictions aren’t over half the current federal prison population, and that Federal Prison population has grown like a weed since the 70s? I don’t think the numbers would support you.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I don’t think you correctly read what I wrote.
I said that your statistic was for “drug offenses” which is vague enough that you could fit the Grand Canyon into it.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drugs / alcohol
Allow one, allow all.
Picking and choosing is a recipe for disaster.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely disagree.
It’s the same line of thinking that would allow a ban on “any bladed object”.
So you don’t want a 10-inch death stick? OK, but no more kitchen knives, swiss-army knives, or even toys resembling a knife.
Ban one, ban them all.
It’s all about filtering through the grey area.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you really wanted to filter through
then there is no possible justification for allowing alcohol and not allowing any other drug. and for antidepressants, no reason why those drugs can be legalized and regulated and other drugs cannot – if we are judging this strictly on effect.
obviously, there are social factors that play a part. but the assumptions that policy makers make on those social factors are either outdated or just flat wrong.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure there is
As I’ve said, I think different substances deserve different regulations.
And I’m no softie for whatever the wishes are of the federal government necessarily, but I do think that most illegal drugs have a high tendency to endanger others.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what kills more people?
drunk-driving, or crack driving?
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then you have failed to say why
you think so. judging strictly from crimes associated with those drugs? most of those crimes are probably a result of the fact that the drug is illegal.
you know why i think this? I’ve tried a lot of these drugs and experience tells me that the effects of alcohol are no less dangerous than any drug. I mean, after a certain point, your mind is altered and they are all the same (aside from the fact that alcohol promotes aggression while many other drugs don’t).
but, strictly from effect, most illegal drugs do not have a higher tendency to endanger others any more than alcohol or many prescription drugs.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So say you.
And while I haven’t experienced any of these drugs, I rely on the aggregated testimony of those who do, and, in the case of crimes, their victims to inform my personal judgement on the matter.
The fact that you say there is no difference does not make it so.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then you're not giving alcohol
enough due. there are lots of drug horror stories but there are LOTS of alcohol horror stories. People can get bat shit drunk.
and, that’s another aspect. alcohol is regulated as well. dosages are controlled. you can’t compare a completely unregulated substance to a regulated one.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Who’s comparing a regulated substance with an unregulated one (which, I presume, you mean a banned one, since all substances are regulated)?
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The discrepancy
lies in our trust of the bureaucrats.
For instance, I don’t trust them to filter a damn thing. Evidently, you do.
Privatize, privatize, privatize.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly
this boils down to the government wanting to destroy black, inner-city America.
Overly punishing young black kids for doing the same thing the congressman and their children did, or are doing, seems to be racist.
Except for when there kids are doing it it is “safe” and they arent trying to hurt anyone or “gang bang”.
The whole system needs to overhauled and arguing about the penaltys for drug offenders seems like completely missing the forest for the trees
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know
You keep saying that.
Thing is, you don’t offer a single grain of evidence that any claim you make is true.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tought to rationalize
the difference in penalties between crack and cocaine without assuming there is differential justice.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.....
do you think more blacks or whites were taken advantage of during this latest Mortgage fuck up?
I know loan officers who can tell you for a fact that Blacks and Mexicans definatelly bear the brunt of predatory lending schemes.
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How so?
Please, don’t give me the “lost in translation” victim crap. Even if it is like that, it’s still a better alternative, apparently.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
dont think minorities are “dumber” than white folk so when I see minorities constantly on the shit end of government and business practices I am left to wonder if there isnt some inherrant racism involved.
“African-Americans, Latinos and women are especially negatively affected as they make up a disproportionate share of subprime mortgages. “
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:fA_SJvab4IYJ:www.socialfunds.com/news/article.cgi/2266.html+african+american+lending+scanda&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
woops...one of many links
http://www.socialfunds.com/news/article.cgi/2266.html
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to read that
but even if it is factually true, so be it.
I don’t think there is a vast racial conspiracy against minorities and women.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
either
blacks and minorities are “less intelligent” or the system is set up against them.
Sure….I guess we could easily replace the word minority with low income to remove race from the discussion but then we must ascertain why more minorities find themselves in th elow income demo?
Again….either they are “dumb” or the system might be rigged to help the rich/white people which makes perfect sence because people on top generally prefer to stay there, not head off on alruistic ventures to help the least of us.
All of which, by the way, I am fine with. Its just that some people seem to misunderstand the game we are in…it is survival of the fittest/brightest/strongest, etc but many people think there is a goal to “help” all people so that we can ALL have the same benefits.
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here
Social reproduction, in short.
Hop over to page 10 of this dissertation:
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Page 10 of the dissertation
is page 19 on that site, fwiw.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What
On Earth does that have to do with anything?
What you’re implying is that those classes of people are stupid, a claim I flatly reject.
A lot of this “crisis” has to do with people who couldn’t afford houses trying to buy them without putting a single bit of risk on the table.
White, black, hispanic…I generally don’t feel sorry for people because of that. Now, if you want to argue that their wages are being depressed, then go ahead.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems our
Government would have some interest in regulating these lending standards considering we the taxpayer ultimately have to clean this mess up with bailouts and “stimulation” packages.
I
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
It does. Non-compliance doesn’t negate existence.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so
its regulated in such a way that banks are able to almost single handedly kill our economy every 20 years or so(S&L in the 80’s)
Non-compliance, as it were, should negate any government bailout or assistance.
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The S&L scandal...
and the current subprime problem are two completely separate problems with completely separate origins and possible solutions. You’re being ridiculous.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Jun 18, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course
they are completeley different problems. My point is that our economy relies on these and other large institutions to stay viable and that two strike in the same industry should certainly be enough to change how the industry is regulated, considering the fallout when they fuck up.
And more importantly I dont think tax dollars should help bail out these companies who choose to ignore the current regulations.
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 18, 2008 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
in the current situation, I don’t think our tax dollars are being used to bail out the subprime lenders, certainly not in the same way that the S&L industry had to be bailed out.
Honestly, the way you’re talking reminds me of the old saw about “sun explodes, women and minorities hardest hit.”
In the current situation, there are a bunch of companies that didn’t correctly price risk and purchased derivative cmo’s which now have approximately negative liquidity. The government did some things to make the purchase of a company (Bear Stearns) particularly hard hit easier for another company in the business (JPM).
The way Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae facilitate liquidity on the secondary market for primary lenders is fine, it wasn’t conforming loans that were the problem. And it would seem to me that it’s definitely oversimplifying the issue to pretend that it was predatory mortgage brokers taking advantage of defenseless black people that led to this problem.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Jun 18, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My question
is: who is paying for the economic stimulus package?
why was it needed?
I presume if there hadnt been this whole sub-prime problem there would be NO stimulation package that is obviously tax payer funded. To top it off we had people running for office whe want to put a moratorium on foreclosures…....
At the end of the day all this mess, and all other messes, are cleaned up by the taxpayer.
I’m just sick of our taxes having to clean up big corp f’ups, whether the “bailout” is extended to the company or the people who were “harmed” by their practices.
Please forgive any and all typos, mispellings, etc.
Your kindess in this matter is appreciated.
by red shoe ranger on Jun 19, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trying to be a dick or intentionally thick
But what is your point here?
Is it that there are dissenting views that lose out, or that views can be couched in narrow, specific terms rather than general ones?
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is that
a congressman wouldn’t betray his duties by taking an anti mandatory sentence stance, even if his constituents were in favor of it, because he would still be in looking out for the overall good of the people.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends.
There’s not a database you can reference that gives you a quick answer as to whether or not something is for the overall good of the people or not. It’s quite often a debate, as I think mandatory sentencing or sentencing guidelines indicate.
Also, in general practice, constiuency trumps all.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
last sentence is up for debate
and, yeah, it’s up for debate obviously. T
his is my opinion – I don’t like mandatory drug sentences. I’m pretty sure most drug users turned representatives would agree that mandatory sentences would have been terrible on their lives if they had been enforced. Further, they would see that their situation is similar to most of their constituents who engage in drug use. Therefore, I feel like some of them should take a stand against mandatory drug use.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what i meant was
your last sentence is up for debate. But my overall point is also debatable.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need to lock up drug abusers and make them do hard time
Especially Cokeheads like George Bush and Larry Kudlow, and prescription junkies like Rush Limbaugh. I think 30 years for each ought to be about right.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget:
Obama and John F. Kennedy and MLK , all documented druggies.
Party affiliation is irrelevant.
"I'm extremely complex. I'm not easy to understand." - a) Charles Manson, b) Madonna, c) Milton Bradley.
by Clueless on Jun 18, 2008 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the Obama reference were totally on....
Obama admitted to drug use, which means for all intents and purposes, he should be in prison. Others are, who have done the same thing….
But the context you sought was evident by the site it was posted on, The Nolan Chart. It is a most excellent libertarian site.
For the confused, this article was laced to the hilt with sarcasm, and his intent was to say the War on Drugs is a hugely expensive and completely inneffective at fighting what it is supposed to be fighting—and “otherwise” decent, non-violent people are rotting in prison for hurting no one but themselves. If you get caught, you are a criminal and you will go to jail. If you don’t get caught, but admit you did it, you get to be a hero or possibly president.
by conspiravygirl on Jun 18, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In one of the stories he tells, he had to borrow $3000 from his father in law to pay a drug dealer. This is enough money to buy at least 20 grams of crack. Simple possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine carries a mandatory FEDERAL sentence of 5 years. So Josh Hamilton should be serving a 20 year prison sentence now instead of telling his victory story of overcoming addiction, finding Christ, and pummeling baseballs.
I’m thinking the $3000 was not for 20 grams of crack. Drug dealers aren’t known for keeping firm prices. They are more likely to charge the highest price the user is able to pay (kinda like credit card companies). Besides, the initial amount very well could have been rather small but interest racked up quickly (again, kinda like a credit card company).
by northtexan95 on Jun 18, 2008 2:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i never knew a drug dealer that charged interest
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure ...
I’m sure it wasn’t in black and white contract (again, like a credit card company) ... but I don’t think a drug dealer would up the price after the fact if he thought the user would pay.
by northtexan95 on Jun 18, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't really follow your reasoning
the only flaw in the author’s argument is that I doubt he ever possessed all 20 grams at the same time.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
I’m just saying the author assumes Josh bought 20 grams at one time. I’m saying he might have paid $3000 for a much smaller amount (Josh didn’t do his competitive shopping before buying). However, your idea that he may have bought 20 grams but not at once is another good possibility. Either way, it’s very likely Josh never was in a position to be tried under that law.
by northtexan95 on Jun 18, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see
yeah, i doubt it was a one time purchase. more likely multiple purchases that added up until drug dealer had enough.
what derek says below
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad I'm not the only one that occurred to
I figured he got a little here and a little there, and eventually the dealer probably had his own dealer breathing down his neck, so he probably threatened Josh or his wife and/or kid. It’s not likely that his father-in-law would loan him money to go buy the 20 grams ahead of time, but it is likely that he loaned Josh the money to pay off the dealer to protect the safety of Josh and/or his family.
by Inkara1 on Jun 18, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall...
it was reported that he told the father in law the money was to pay for a sofa.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Jun 18, 2008 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same Time
You’re right ab03. The fallacy that the $3000 was to pay for one coke purchase is way off. The drug dealer knew he was good for it and let have some stuff on credit. When it came time to pay, Josh had to borrow money or get assaulted. Just an example of someone jumping to conclusions without knowing the full story.
Derek
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Jun 18, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, but author doesn't say that all 20 grams were held at one time...
it is implied that he held 5 grams at four different times using the bad logic
the sentencing guidelines don’t work out “20 grams = penalty for 5 grams x 4”
possession of 20 grams would probably be considered distribution
that being said, not sure he was making 5 gram purchases (following the author’s logic) or buying one rock at a time – a few times a day / several times a week.
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the assumption of 20 years is incorrect for other reasons
i don’t think those sentences compound like that.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my experience...
they are usually very enabling and will be very cooperative.
i don’t know haven’t heard of an interest charger either.
as long as you pay for the previous debt, the next buy can be on credit.
or so i’ve heard…
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"or so I've heard"
That’s what I’m going by. Perhaps drug dealers are more customer friendly in allowing users to use credit … knowing they will get their payment one way or another (again, much like a credit card company).
by northtexan95 on Jun 18, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Speaking firsthand as someone who has a good deal of experience with drug use, here’s a few of my observations on the subject of drug dealers:
- Most of my connections were either friends who sold a little on the side to finance their own habit, or were friends of other friends. I very rarely bought anything from someone I didn’t know beforehand, unless one of my friends could vouch for the person.
- Some of them let me buy on credit, some didn’t- it usually depended on how well the dealer knew me. I generally didn’t make a purchase unless I had the money right then, or could get it within a day or two. I also knew some who were willing to accept payment in other forms than cash. I never did trades, but I knew people who would give their dealer something like a DVD player or PlayStation to pay off a debt.
- In a lot of ways, it’s like any other business that you patronize frequently- you tend to get better deals the longer you know the connection, both in terms of quality and price.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Jun 18, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
does everybody realize that the story is mainly written sarcastically?
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Pffht!
You’re taking all the fun out of this!
by northtexan95 on Jun 18, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who cares
there should be 3 front page stories about Tiger Woods. Atleast.
Stats don't lie
by Longhorn on Jun 18, 2008 2:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If only golf were a real sport
and Tiger was a real athlete.
"I'm extremely complex. I'm not easy to understand." - a) Charles Manson, b) Madonna, c) Milton Bradley.
by Clueless on Jun 18, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that guy looks hungry he needs some:

"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
-FOTF 5/20/2008
"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008
by Jayslick on Jun 18, 2008 3:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
who is he hating?
look what you did, adam. now everybody is confused.
HE DOES NOT WANT HAMILTON IN JAIL.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its a stupid argument
he basing his whole argument on the idea that Hambone was buying a ton of crack all at once like 50 grams or whatever, ignoring the fact that its likely that hammy owed that much after a long period of abuse rather than the idea that he was gonna buy it for some huge drug deal and distribution business.
its one of the dumbest things ive read in a long time.
"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
-FOTF 5/20/2008
"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008
by Jayslick on Jun 18, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what do you think the argument is?
You are in favor of crack laws carrying mandatory sentences? We’re all speculating but it is very possible (probably likely) Hamilton did at one point in his life possess 5 grams of crack at once. So, if he had gotten caught, he would have gone to jail for 5 years. You are ok with that?
It’s fine if you are but there’s a legitimate counterargument. There’s nothing stupid about the author’s argument.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His argument has nothing to do with how much drugs J-Ham did or didn't buy...
Here’s a rough outline:
Drug use is technically punishable by jail time.
Josh Hamilton used drugs, so based on current laws, he should be doing jail time.
Instead, he made a remarkable turnaround, and is probably doing more to fight drug abuse than America’s “war on drugs” can ever accomplish.
Do we really want drug users punished, or do “kooks” like Ron Paul have the right idea by supporting individual liberty to make poor decisions for themselves?
I think his sarcasm is throwing people off … that and the unsupported shots he’s taking at Obama and McCain.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, its tough for me to believe
that all the prisons we have built, and all the money we have spent on enforcement since the 70s have either reduced drug use or really helped society. I think we are definitely much better off that Hamilton didn’t get arrested for Drugs. Had he been arrested, we’d all be paying the bill to house, cloth and feed him.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, he's not hating... he's jealous.
he wishes he had some crack…

or did i miss the point, too?
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The author
Has gone the extra mile to try to be sardonically profound, and ends up merely perplexing. Thoughtful discussion here, not so much BTF choosing to publish it.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jun 18, 2008 4:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
was it that perplexing
his obama and mccain slight aside, i didn’t really think his message was all that difficult to ascertain.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so much the message
More why did he write it. Then again, I’ve never been exposed nor experienced drugs, and I don’t drink, so even the well phrased arguments about criminalization, regulation, motivation, punishment, and such were more interesting to read than the article itself. I truly don’t think what is or was criminalized when matters that much, though. Certain patent medicines containing opiates were banned in some places as far back as 1915. I guess I just try to avoid in depth controversy about substance topics, since I have no use for anyone putting anything in their body and find that’s not a popular stance.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jun 18, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he wrote it because it's a far reaching problem
he used hamilton to show that it’s reached a hero that has come into the national spotlight. I think the article was worth being written.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the article was worth writing
In that its an issue that until recently has carried such a stigma that no one has wanted to discuss it with an open mind.
But I don’t think the author did anything to provoke the open-mindedness that this topic requires. Like Ed said, y’all’s discussion above is far more interesting to an outside observer.
Fair or not, because of the nature of the topic, the author’s sarcastic approach (and general lack of structure) turns what could have been a thought-provoking topic for people on both sides of the issue to something that only really appealed to those who share his viewpoint, like yourself. It’s the difference between listening to a Rush Limbaugh or an Ann Coulter and listening to a conservative or liberal who doesn’t belittle the opposing side.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, he took a position
i’m not going to fault him for that.
i guess i see how the sarcasm got in the way, but i don’t think it got so in the way as to obfuscate the point. I think adam’s hack job summary did more to ruin the article for people than anything else.
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer folks not use drugs.
I’m just not sure wasting so much money on Jail Spaces is better than the alternative of arresting folks who are DUI or who do property crimes to support their habits. Some people are able to smoke dope (without inhaling, lol) or snort coke, and go on to inhabit Pennsylvania Avenue. I’m not sure we are better off turning every druggie from a taxpayer to a ward of the state.
Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it
by DJCahill on Jun 18, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drugs
should be legalize and taxed. I say let Wal-Mart start selling drugs. Crime will go down and put scum bag drug dealers out of business.
by BillyBobisdrunk on Jun 18, 2008 5:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wrote the article because
I love Josh Hamilton. I’m flying to Dallas next week to watch the Phillies series. I own two of his Jerseys. He was in high school in Raleigh when I was in college at Chapel Hill.
I hate paying taxes (both real and in terms of lost dollar value) to support programs designed to address issues rather than deal with problems.
I love freedom. The Constitution was put in place to limit the federal government’s power and protect that freedom. When they ignore it, they put the very thing that makes America great-not our “moral foundation”-our Freedom at risk.
I am an American. And while the only Americans seemingly affected by nonsensical policies like the war on drugs are “bad people” now, we will soon be paying the toll for all of these idiotic government decisions that have been made without the consent of the governed unless people start saying something about it. I have gone from a family who earns $30,000 to someone who pays more than that in taxes by using my freedom fully. I’m not okay with having that freedom taken from me or you, and if you won’t say something about it for you, then I will.
Josh Hamilton definitely shouldn’t be in prison. If he hadn’t used drugs, he’d probably be on his way to Cooperstown. But he did use drugs that shouldn’t even be available if the war on drugs actually worked. But it doesn’t. And neither do 99% of the policies that Washington comes up with to save us from the evil of the day.
However, Hambone took responsibility for his decisions and turned his life around-had he been caught with all of that crack and put in jail because he was such a “danger to society”-he wouldn’t have had that option.
It wasn’t the most eloquent article I’ve written, but you need to read the whole thing and some more of the stuff I’ve written to really get it.
Are you really okay with your government using your money to go after Roger Clemens because he refused to incriminate himself (a 5th Amendment right) in front of Congress when he was testifying to your employees (your government reps are YOUR employees-you pay their salaries) about something the Constitution in no way authorizes them to get involved with to begin with?
By the way, if you missed it in the article, steroids became illegal in 1990 as a reaction to Ben Johnson winning the gold medal at the Olympics. It seemed like a good idea at the time to “protect the integrity of the games and the health of the athletes” but now those same laws are being used to justify spending millions of taxpayer dollars to deliberately go after otherwise very productive American Citizens and rob them of their freedom. The lesson isn’t “If you do steroids, you ruin your life.” The lesson is, “No matter how much money you have, don’t mess with the federal government or you are screwed.”
This has just gone too far. I’m not okay with it. I was overly dramatic for effect. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear enough in my writing, after watching Josh Hamilton videos all night, I just felt like writing.
by strongarmedjohn on Jun 18, 2008 5:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The message is clear
but if you feel as strongly about this topic as you claim to, I think you could have phrased things better.
I wholeheartedly agree with your overall purpose, though.
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by Chase Irwin on Jun 18, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
--
“But he did use drugs that shouldn’t even be available if the war on drugs actually worked.”
Well said. That’s the biggest issue to me. I don’t use drugs nor drink, so I’m a bit ambivalent about the “right” to use dangerous substances. I can understand the libertarian argument on the matter, and I think it has merit, I’m just not sure what my personal beliefs are on the subject. That’s why I’ve largely stayed out of this discussion.
However, it’s pretty evident that the current policy is ineffective. And that’s why I think legalization and other reforms are at least deserving of thoughtful consideration.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 18, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought it was a good article
but can you really justify your position on Obama and McCain? The race card? really?
Rare Gnats Sex
by ab03 on Jun 18, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama/McCain
Let me explain the Obama/McCain thing. I used those references for a couple of reasons. First, the race thing carried on the theme from the very beginning of the article about Obama’s preacher. The point I was making, and it was a subtle point couched in strong language to create a reaction (unfortunately, it may have clouded the point), is that Americans are more concerned about what Barack Obama’s pastor said than they are about the only thing they should be concerned about-how well will the President do his job? What’s the job he swears in to do on inauguration day? “I swear (or affirm) that I will execute the office of President of the United States, and to the best of my ability Preserve, Protect, and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America.” Because we’re so caught up in being on the “winning team” we discuss soap opera stories (like race) to give us an inclination about who’s going to win that we don’t discuss things that really matter-like how our freedom is slowly being eroded us make us (the sheeple I should say) safe (from ppl like Josh Hamilton-you know, evil drug dealers and users or terrorists.) When people like Obama talk about healthcare or grand plans, very few people ever ask, “What in the Constitution that he swears to defend would actually allow him to follow through on this plan?” Article 1 Section 8 is very clear on what the government can do. The 10th Amendment makes it even more clear that not only can they do certain things the people have empowered them to do-they Can’t do anything that is specifically stated. I’ve written several articles on this that are worth reading.
The McCain “white flag of surrender” comment was about all of the primary debates I’m sure few people watched (but since the site where I write is more politically leaning, most regular readers would have gotten the reference). McCain constantly used this line when discussing why we would stay in Iraq for 100 years if we had to be there in order to “Win the War on Terror” and thus ties in to the idea of fighting another unwinnable war to keep us safe from an ideology, even if it means destroying America in the Process. The war on drugs sounds good, but how do you fight a war on a chemical substance? It’s a war on people and civil liberties. The war on terror is the same thing. You can’t kill “terror.” You can kill a lot of terrorists, but just like drug dealers, more pop up. Mainly because we are over there killing people in Islamic countries. If you are thinking, “You are such an unpatriotic bastard—blaming America for 9/11” you couldn’t be further from the truth and may want to consider why it is that’s the thought that automatically pops into your head. Just for the record I voted for Bush twice. It wasn’t until last October I woke up from the political game and started educating myself. The internet is the last great unregulated bastion of information, but you can be sure that by writing stuff like I do there is a tag on my ip address at Homeland Security and your site is being monitored as I write. If I’m declared an “enemy combatant” for using my 1st Amendment right to address grievances with my government, I could be stuck in Gitmo without charges and with no hope of being released. How is this possible? Because we are at war with “Terror” and my God-given, Constitutionally protected 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment rights have to be “balanced” with giving the government the power it needs to hunt down these “evildoers” and keep me safe (i.e. make me pay to stand in long lines, confiscate my water and toothpaste, and miss my flights).
I’m blaming the government, not America. I love America. And I can’t sit idly by and watch America (and our God given, Constitutionally protected freedom) be destroyed in the name of fighting an ideal that is only strengthened by our actions which are financed with the people’s income and in our name but without our consent (it’s not a coincidence that we have neither formally declared nor won a war since WWII—if you want to see what a real war declaration looks like, google WWII war declaration vs Germany, Italy, or Japan).
You nor I (unless you’re a cabinet official or something) have never once made a decision to place bases in Saudi Arabia (one of the biggest things Bin Laden was pissed about—you can find this on the White House website). We’ve never decided to round up American Citizens and place them in Prisons without the right of Habeus Corpus without warrants simply because the Executive Branch deemed them “enemy combatants.”
We are playing right into the hands of our enemies, and Americans sit idly by and accept what the government controlled media tells them about the war and why we’re there like puppets instead of performing their 1st Amendment job of being a government watchdog. In the meantime, we’ve spent about $30,000 (and counting) per every man, woman, and child in America invading a country that had no ties to terrorists, posed no imminent threat to America (even if they had WMD’s, they had no way to get them here) and no hijackers from there on 9/11. Calling reexamining our foreign policy “waving the white flag of surrender” is akin to calling Josh Hamilton a “quitter” because he no longer uses drugs.
For brevity’s sake, the reason I bash Obama and McCain equally is that they are both involved with politics. The jabs at these guys was really a jab at the low-brow, infotainment based discussions U.S. Citizens have when discussing politics-and this is totally by design. Politics is about winning elections-which is obviously a very profitable business judging from the fact that people spend obscene amounts of money in order to be elected and the fact that the three wealthiest counties in the U.S. are the ones bordering D.C.
Politics is complicated. Government is Simple. Both are by design. Politics bore the hell out of me, it’s like watching a movie whose hook is a surprise ending for the 20th time. It was interesting the first time you saw it, but once you already know what’s going to happen, all entertainment value is lost and you realize that you’re just wasting a lot of time that you could be spending doing something more productive. I won’t get into it here, but if you actually care to learn more about how politics are destroying our country and why, go to nolanchart and read an article I wrote on the subject. It is titled something along the lines of “Voting Based on your Beliefs: the Worst Super Tuesday Mistake.” Then go read George Washington’s Farewell address (I’m in the process of rewriting it in modern, colloquial English). You seem smart, so if you can make it through it you’ll see that he warned about the rise of political parties coinciding with the destruction of freedom.
That’s where the “kook” thing regarding Ron Paul comes in. When someone actually comes along and discusses real issues, the major parties laugh him off the stage because if the people found out just how badly they’d been had, the parties would be in major trouble. It’s not the Republicans or the Democrats—it’s both and it’s easy to see if you can get past the propaganda you’ve heard for so long.
This Ron Paul “Revolution” thing isn’t about winning an election. It’s about taking America away from the 545 Federal Officials in Washington ( 536 elected, 9 appointed) who believe that simply winning a majority election or being appointed gives them the power to do whatever they want as long as its couched in terms of doing what’s “best for the country” and returning that power to the 300,000,000 individuals so they can decide for themselves what’s best for them. If they are wrong, it could mess up their lives. If the guys in DC are wrong, it could mess up millions (even if the mistake is well intentioned and based on the best information available at the time-which I personally believe to be the case with President Bush and the War on Terror since it’s based on the only ideology that was ready and waiting to explain the 9/11 attacks at a time the whole country was searching for answers-Neoconservativism. Most of what you believe about the War on Terror and its necessity are simply Neocon ideologies which have been repeated so often through the media they seem true: Our role as the sole superpower is to spread democracy because terrorists don’t grow in democracies; we have to fight them over there before they come over here; 9/11 was a result of our being too passive in the 90’s, the only language these people understand is force; etc.-it’s worth reading about Neocons if you get a chance-just wikipedia it.)
So basically, there are three options: 1. Socialism/Communism/Totalitarianism 2. A complete economic collapse (which actually precedes #1 as Marx predicted would be necessary before communism could actually work-it must be preceded by capitalism) or 3. The Revolution and Restoring the Republic. I choose #3, even if it means using the little time I have to write articles that seem like they’re bashing my favorite baseball player or the major party nominees for no good reason.
I hope you’ll join us. Feel free to email me if you’d like. strongarmedjohn@yahoo.com
I hope this answers your question.
by strongarmedjohn on Jun 18, 2008 9:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
First of all
Less is more.
Second, “Article 1 Section 8 is very clear on what the government can do.”
You lose all credibility after that. I’m assuming you have no legal training, because that statement couldn’t be further from the truth. For one, it deals with Congress, not the “government” as you broadly define it. Second, two centuries of Commerce Clause jurisprudence, and a century of dormant Commerce Clause jurisprudence would tend to make your claim quite flaccid. That’s just one. Necessary and Proper Clause is almost too easy.
I know you think you’re a crusader here, but I highly doubt many people will actually read your windbag rant that really leads nowhere.
Best advice: stop crafting strawmen, stop thinking yourself the most enlightened guy in the room, and try keeping your novel-sized rants to a minimum.
by brettgardner on Jun 18, 2008 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah...
the irony.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
by benmor78 on Jun 19, 2008 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
I really love how much you dislike me. It’s endearing, and flattering.
by brettgardner on Jun 19, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brett...
I am well aware of the necessary and proper or “elastic clause” as it’s popularly known. I am also well aware of the bastardization of the commerce clause. All of these decisions expanded the power of the federal government to deal with some problem du jour without the consent of the governed (exactly as Washington warned might happen when he left office).
Do you really think it’s a coincidence the 10th Amendment is 10th? It’s the “we shouldn’t really even have to say this, but just to be absolutely perfectly clear about the role of the federal government we’re going to throw this in anyway” Amendment.
I’m not the most enlightened guy in the room. I’m an American. I can read. Why do you think the Constitution is such a simple document? It was created by the people for the people to protect us against exactly what is happening now—an overreaching federal government. Politicians have made it seem complicated so that people wouldn’t stand up for their rights.
I’m sorry you can’t see that and don’t seem to understand the purpose for which it was written. We can talk case law all day, but it’s counterproductive to the point. An undeclared war that’s costing us trillions, the upcoming boomer retirement, and the largest growth of the Fed Gov in history to keep me “safe” from a force that an unconstitutional foreign policy created is hardly a straw man.
Enjoy your day, I’ll leave you with a quote from Thomas Jefferson that perfectly explains our situation today and why people like you are content to do nothing about it because you think that a stare decisis argument is stronger than an original intent argument. Here’s your quote, I hope you understand it:
When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all Power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. If we run into such [government] debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow sufferers.—Thomas Jefferson
by strongarmedjohn on Jun 19, 2008 6:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No
I don’t understand it. See, I’m just a fuzzy-headed nanny-stater who thinks government can solve all my problems. Who is this Th-o-ma-s Jefferson? I’ve never heard of him. You must be the first to quote him in this context because I’ve sure never seen it.
The Constitution is a simple document? Oh, well when you put it like that—I guess you’re absolutely correct. I guess we don’t actually need to read anything, as you so proudly claim you can. We can just rely on your high-school-level knowledge of history and intuition to guide us as a nation.
Thank God we have you to show us the way.
But should you really be posting? Big Brother’s probably on his way to stuff your ass in a Gulag right now. OK, quick: get your copy of “Common Sense”, fold a flag up, and dream of what it would be like if you could write something profound.
Here’s a quote that’s always guided me. I hope you can understand it.
“I wanna know where da gold at!”
by brettgardner on Jun 19, 2008 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're funny
Brett,
I get how ridiculous this stuff sounds. I would have made fun of me too a year ago. A year ago I would have been caught up in issues and cheering for my team. I have built an incredibly successful sales organization using my freedom, and I am also very well educated. The difference between now and a year ago is the thousands of hours I’ve spent educating myself so that I could get past issues and actually see the root problems our country faces.
I’m sorry if my writing seemed like a personal attack towards you. It wasn’t intended that way, and I wrote it at the end of being up for nearly 40 hours.
If you feel like it, help me understand why the simplicity of the Constitution seems like such a quaint, childish notion to you.
by strongarmedjohn on Jun 19, 2008 2:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To be blunt
It’s is because it is such a notion.
The Constitution is not a simple document, except that it is readable on its face, and it’s relatively short.
But, a facial reading just doesn’t tell you a whole lot. If you’re really interested in doing some research, I’d suggest researching into context, which is the only thing that ever matters. Don’t talk to me about “original intent”, because that is a meaningless term. Intent, for one thing, is unknowable, particularly when you consider the fact that the Constitution was not written by a single person, but by many, who quite often completely disagreed with each other. For another, intent is worthless in Constitutional interpretation, because it could quite clearly contradict the words used.
No, what you want is original meaning. Check out a few Scalia or Thomas dissents in Constitutional matters, or even read “A Matter of Interpretation”. What did the words generally mean, and therefore encompass, at the time they were ratified?
In any case, many of the provisions of the Constitution were intentionally altered in Convention to be more vague. You have to realize that ratification was the main goal, and certain states would not accept certain provisions. Calling it a simpe document fails this analysis, too. Were it so simple, we’d have no need for amendments to clarify it (I-X)
But let me just save you the hassle and tell you: we’re not facing any more and any different level of problems as a nation than we ever have. The scope may have changed, but the stability of the market, the size of the government, and the threats from counter-balancing forces (military, political, etc.) have always been problems, and always will be.
If you want my advice, it would be to narrow the scope of your rhetoric.
by brettgardner on Jun 19, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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