Pitching Targets
by SaltyDawg on Jun 22, 2008 4:31 PM CDT
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PrintThis off season, the Rangers could target guys like Sabathia, Sheets, Penny, Burnett, and a handful of others. But, in today's market, the young controllable arm is perhaps the most valuable commodity. So, these are some pitchers that fall into that category along with why they could hit the market, the needs of their current teams, and whether the Rangers could match up with them. Some of these pitcher's names have already popped up in the rumor mills, and some have not.
Zack Greinke 24-yr old RHP, Kansas City Royals
Greinke could hit the market if Kansas City determines they can't lock him up like they did with Joakim Soria. Greinke's name has popped up in a few reports with speculation the Royals may shop him. Greinke would command a significant return as a guy who has already proven his skill at the major league level.
The Royals could use help across the board, with 3B being the only position filled long term (Alex Gordon). They would still have some promising young pitching (Soria, Hochevar, Davies, Rosa, Ramirez, Nunez, Bannister) at the major league level along with having Gil Meche still under contract. They could definitely target some of the Rangers hard hitting position prospects and there is a match here as Texas needs advanced arms and KC could use some advanced positional guys while they wait on Moustakas and Hosmer.
Homer Bailey 22-yr old RHP, CIncinnati Reds
Bailey has been passed by Volquez and Cueto already. Daryl Thompson looked good in his ML debut while Bailey sits in AAA following a dismal 3 game stretch at the major league level. This would be a sell low move on the Reds part, but they could still get a nice return for him if they opted to deal him.
Walt Jocketty recently declared Edwin Encarnacion, Joey Votto, and Jay Bruce untouchable (along with Volquez and Cueto). So, that means the Reds are set at 1B, 3B, and one of the OF spots. They also have Brandon Phillips locked up at 2B. Dunn and Griffey could both be gone in 2009, so the Reds could use an outfielder. They could also use a young SS and definitely a nice catcher. The Rangers could match up here with their surplus of catchers, some nice fringe OF pieces, and a guy in Joaquin Arias who has been passed by Andrus as the SS of the future for Texas.
The Tampa Bay Kids: Jeff Niemann 25-yr old RHP, Wade Davis 22-yr old RHP, Jacob McGee 21-yr old LHP, Jeremy Hellickson 21-yr old RHP
These 4 guys are all part of an organization that seemingly has 4 spots in the rotation locked down for the forseeable future with Scott Kazmir, David Price, James Shields, and Matt Garza. The Rays don't have to move any of these guys, but they could use any one of them to improve their lineup.
If the Rays decide to make a push this year, they could use a RF/DH to insert into the middle of their lineup. They could also use an extra arm in the pen. The Rangers could match up here with Milton Bradley and have some veteran bullpen arms and young arms they could throw in to get a deal done.
The Boston Kids: Clay Bucholz 23-yr old RHP, Michael Bowden 21-yr old RHP, Justin Masterson 23-yr old RHP, Daniel Bard 23-yr old (in 3 days) RHP
The Red Sox have 3 real concerns right now; Colon and Schilling are on the DL, David Ortiz is on the DL, they could use a young catcher. If they determine they need a bat to replace Ortiz while he is hurt, a veteran arm for the rotation, or a young catcher they could get it done with some of their young arms. Masterson is performing nicely in the rotation so he may not be available, and Bucholz has such a high ceiling that he may not be available.
The Rangers could match up with the Sox on all 3 of their needs. They have the solid bat for the DH spot in Bradley, they have the veteran pitching in Padilla and Millwood, and they have the catching with Laird, Salty, Teagarden, and Max. Bard is a relief prospect, and the other three are likely ML-starting pitchers.
The Cubs Lefties: Rich Hill 28-yr old LHP, Sean Marshall 25-yr old LHP, Donald Veal 23-yr old LHP
The Cubs are in a sticky situation. They have the best record in baseball but just lost their ace (Carlos Zambrano). Hill has had a disappointing year after being penciled in as the Cubs #2 starter to start the season. His value his way down right now. Marshall has always performed ok, but never really gotten the time which says a lot in itself. Veal is at AA and performing well. All three could be used to improve the team, with Marshall likely being the easiest target for another team.
While Zambrano may return, the Cubs could be forced to go after a veteran arm if he can't get back. They could also use another outfielder with Soriano out for a while. The Rangers could match up here with Padilla and Millwood and also in the outfield with Boggs, Byrd, and even Cat. Any deal for Millwood or Padilla would have to include more on the Cubs end for sure.
The Pirates (not AJ Murray): Zach Duke 25-yr old LHP, Tom Gorzelanny 25-yr old LHP, Paul Maholm 25-yr old LHP, Ian Snell 26-yr old RHP
The Pirates are always candidates to deal anyone on their roster. All 4 of these guys have been up and down in their careers. Duke is the only one putting up a decent season this year and has been on the Rangers' radar before.
The Pirates could use anything you can give them. As long as it is young and affordable. The Rangers could match up in any number of positions with the Pirates and deal from one of their surpluses to get one of these arms.
So, any interesting names there? What kind of deals seem fair? Any other names worth looking into?
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Very well thought out post
It seems like the best fits would be with Boston and Tampa Bay for the reasons you noted.
The question then becomes: should we be trying to deal for starting arms or continue our efforts of trying to produce them organically ourselves?
by Lo'Ranger(s)714 on Jun 22, 2008 4:45 PM CDT reply actions
Out of that list
Greinke and Bucholz (maybe Bowden, Masterson, McGee, and Davis) are probably the only ones that would cost you one of your pitching prospects. So, the Rangers could conceivably make a deal and not hinder their own developmental plans whatsoever.
Pirates
I am hoping the rangers can snag one of their lefties in their rotation. However, the only one that has shown promise, even with his inconsistency, is Zach Duke.
baseBALLIN!
Here are my thoughts
Greinke= Would love to sign him to a long-term 5 or 6 year deal. I don’t see that happening though. Not sure how KC will let him go but if we can somehow pick him up, he could be a solid #1/2 for the next 5 years.
Homer Bailey= Now this is something I could get on board with. Has a lot of potential and still only 22 and doesn’t give up a lot of home runs. Maybe he can be had…not sure how much Cincy would demand but JD has prospect pieces that need to be moved over the next year and if Cincy is reasonable with their asking price for Bailey, I would be all over this.
Tampa Bay = Cliff Floyd has been DHing and has been a good leader in the clubhouse but the team could certainly use an upgrade at the position, one which Bradley could fill. Also, given TB’s budget constraints it wouldn’t be a bad move considering Bradley’s contract would be up at the end of this year. It makes sense for them to deal some pitching prospects to us since their rotation is so young and sexual already. It is a difficult situation to read cause we aren’t sure how Tampa will act as “buyers” since they have never been in that position before. In the end, I’m not sure if any of those TB pitchers that are available have #1/2 ceilings like Greinke though…if not, might as well hold on to Bradley and get 2 draft picks instead.
Boston = seems like a great trading partner if Ortiz is out long-term. We have a plethora of catchers, they need a catcher for the future. They are trying to win now and Masterson and Lester are part of that rotation. Surprisingly, that makes Buchholz the odd man out. If you can get him for a Bradley/Salty package you do it. If you can’t, you move on to another team or consider trading just Salty for Bowden.
Cubs = Hill is a buy-low candidate but also he’s already 28 and lacks consistency still. Strikeout lefty pitcher but seems somewhat prone to the long ball. I imagine the Cubs will be a team very interested in Padilla or Millwood. Hill could be a guy we could get back in a deal for one of those guys. If he figures it out it will be a great deal, especially if we can lock Hill up long-term. a
Pirates = Snell’s only 26 but only has one good major league season to his name, everything else has been below average. Duke also has only one good year to his name (excluding his great rookie year) but he has more upside but I also don’t imagine the Pirates wanting to trade him. Not sure if the Pirates would be motivated to trade.
In summation
Can’t see Greinke getting traded here but I’d love to talk to KC about it. I imagine talks would certainly have to include either Neftali Feliz, Chris Davis or Max Ramirez. Would you give up a package centered around Chris Davis for Zack Greinke? I would…
If we can get Bailey as a buy-low, I say we do it. Put him through the Halladay-Volquez treatment. Send him to single-A and let him pitch a few starts in each place till he gets back to the Majors.
Who knows what TB is going to do?
Buccholz/Masterson/Lester or no point if they ask for Bradley. If they just want Salty we should talk for less.
Hill has some control problems, real inconsistent.
Duke would be a nice acquisition but not sure what he would cost and he still has some question marks as well.
I think Bailey would be a good buy low
But don’t know that Cincy would even have any interest in talking about him right now given his diminished value. I do think they will eventually deal him if he starts producing again b.c. of Volquez and Cueto and the value Bailey had just a year or two ago.
Rich Hill is another interesting guy but only if you could get him on the cheap. And I do think the Cubs could target Millwood or Padilla but don’t know that they have what it would take to get it done in terms of prospects and young major leaguers.
I think Bailey has the reputation of being
a selfish player. I’ve heard this in a couple of different places. He might fit in better with that Seattle team.
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 22, 2008 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
So overrated
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by inactive lsb user on Jun 22, 2008 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
There are at least a million ways.
I’ve also heard that his dad rubs people the wrong way, too.
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Name one...
I don’t see how being selfish has anything to do with his performance on the field…Being selfish doesn’t mean he has a bad work ethic. All it means is that he wants to succeed.
His dad rubs people the wrong way? What are you talking about? Who cares about his dad? When would his dad interact significantly with anyone in the organization?
Being selfish has nothing to do with a desire to succeed.
Ok, here’s one way (and I’m not saying that Bailey does this particular offense): you could go into the clubhouse and nap while the other pitchers are shagging balls during BP.
Here’s another: you could yell at your teammates for committing errors in the field behind you.
Or: you could pull a Richie Sexson and disappear while everyone else is putting in extra work.
Or: you could set your own pitch limits like Erik Bedard.
Or: you could ignore a manager’s directive to wait at your locker to talk to the media, another Richie Sexson special.
Or: you could use PEDs knowing that you could get caught and suspended for 50 games.
Or…
As for his dad, I believe his dad is/was his agent (or manager) for a while. People don’t like the two of ‘em, and if it’s out there that people don’t like ‘em, then it’s probably been an issue before, and is likely to come around again.
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Well there are obviously two ways of looking at it...
maybe Bailey is selfish in that he doesn’t go out with his teammates after games cause he cares so much about individually succeeding that he spends extra time watching game tape or working out….
And all of your comments are entirely speculation. Just because you heard that he is selfish means the Rangers shouldn’t pursue him? He is a 22 year old kid….he will mature. And who cares about his dad, people don’t like his dad? Do you know him personally?
You seem to think it's guaranteed that he will mature.
I just cited several examples of full-grown multi-millionaires behaving selfishly.
And why are you asking the same question about his dad again? I answered that already, but in case you missed it here it is again (this time in bold).
As for his dad, I believe his dad is/was his agent (or manager) for a while. People don’t like the two of ‘em, and if it’s out there that people don’t like ‘em, then it’s probably been an issue before, and is likely to come around again.
And who cares what I think? It’s just an opinion based on things I’ve heard about the guy from people who know him and have met him. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying what I’ve heard.
The most important thing of all is that he’s apparently regressing in AAA.
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
AGreen
Salty has much more trade value than Bradley. Not sure why you would want to talk about less for Salty than Bradley…
I'm not so sure about that
Bradley has been insane this year. Best hitter in the AL insane. That’s gotta have some serious trade value – probably more than a catcher whose struggles have been much ballyhooed this season.
Of course, if Salty continues to pick it up with regular playing time, like he has the last couple days, that could change. Only thing is, if he continues to pick ut up then it would be insane to trade him, so…
Don't know about the insane part...
With as many catchers as Texas has, it would be insane NOT to start trading some of them. I don’t know that I’d be any more attached to Salty (even if his production picked up) than Laird, Teagarden or MaxRam.
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 23, 2008 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Meant to add
I do agree with you on Bradley though. He’s the perfect rental for a championship contender. How often does an affordable guy with MVP numbers get shipped at the deadline?
by MeanMr.Mustard on Jun 23, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Bradley..
Has more onfield value now for a contending team, sure. But, teams don’t give up as much in trade for a rental player as they would for a 22 year old catcher who is capable of an 850-900 OPS. Maybe I’m off base, but IMO Salty has more trade value to the Rangers. Sure, maybe Bradley gives a team more this year, but not all trades are based upon this year. I believe Salty brings back the better package.
Tampa Bay
Tell that to the Rays who have never been this close to a playoff spot in their entire existance. They can and probably should be making moves for this year. they have a solid enough core of young players under control that giving up a few guys in the minors isn’t going to hurt their rebuilding process. Its almost complete as it is
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
no guts, no glory
The Twins never seem to make a move at the trade deadline to help themselves. Yes they won a few division titles a few years ago but they were quickly ousted from the playoffs.
Brandon Boggs 2008 Texas Rangers ROY
Twins
I think it will be interesting to see if Smith is a reluctant to make moves as his predecessor seemed to be. New guy in charge, who knows? They traded Santana and Garza, maybe they’ll be more active now if they’re close.
...and curse Sir Sidney Ponson, he was such a stupid git.
I think Hank Blalock might be attractive to the Twins
If memory serves, his option next year is relatively cheap, and they could really use a real DH/1B type if they want to catch the White Sox. They might even try converting him back to third base, becuase the last time I looked, they had Mike freaking Lamb starting over there.
Don’t know what we’d want in return from the Twins though – what else would we have to add along with Blalock to get somebody like Kevin Slowey?
doesn't really fit the controllable requirement
of course I didn’t do enough research on how many years of arb the other guys have left…but I know non of them are FAs at the end of the year.
I think the best move
is to talk to the Pirates. We have young, talented, position players and they have some nice SP. They’re probably going to end up trading Jason Bay and Xavier Nady, so see what John Mayberry Jr.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
JMJ...
for Ian Snell. He’s had a rough year but is only 26. Do you make that trade? Would the Pirates?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I would think
Snell is valued higher than JMJ for sure
If there were no rewards to reap,
no loving embrace to see me through this tedious path I've chosen here,
I certainly would've walked away by now... Be patient
JMJ, Arias, and Gentry
for Snell. The get two outfielders and an SS, all of whom are major league ready or at least could deserve a call up next season.
Gentry is major league ready?
Care to explain that?
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 22, 2008 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
"Typical woman. 'Give me' 'Give me' 'Give me'
I’ll give ya something.
1. A backhand
2. A stuffing
3. $500 if you promise never to post here again"
~ The Immortal, BG
by inactive lsb user on Jun 22, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Crap...
I was thinking of the two guys in Frisco Harrison and Murphy. Don’t know where I pulled Gentry from. I’d also be willing to throw them Cruz if they’d prefer him as well.
"I'd also be Willing to throw them Cruz"...
very gracious of you. =P
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
sure looks that way
I had him pegged for a potential breakout this year. Missed that one.
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."
Masterson
is horribly overrated right now. I don’t see him having much, and I certainly wouldn’t give up much to get him. Poor walk and strikeout rates, only 2 pitches, and an 80’s fastball. I’m not sure he’s anything more than another Mendoza, and I’m not real high on him either.
Buchholz, however, is the real freaking deal, and I’d put a helluva package together to get him.
Pedro: "I wasn't cockfighting, I just have a wide stance."
Bowden
Don’t sleep on Bowden. IMO he’ll turn out almost as good as Buchholz and way better then Masteson.
Derek
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Jun 23, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
This Post
This is a great post and a perfect example of what we need to be doing…trading for some young starting pitchers.
I would hope we kick the tires on Grienke, Buchholz and maybe the Tampa players. But I’ve always loved watching Hill throw that curve.
From a BP Chat:
Guancous (Silver Spring, MD): Hi John, have you heard if any other teams are interested in Rich Hill? I am curious if his trade value is higher or lower than Sean Marshall’s. Thanks.John Perrotto: I think a small-market club would be perfect for Hill. He’s got an awful lot of talent but it’s clear that he has lost the faith of Lou Piniella. Put him in a low-pressure environment and he could easily put his career back together. Yes, I think Hill has more value than Marshall simply because he has a higher ceiling, though I also think Marshall has a chance to be a good major-league starter.
and
Brent (Raleigh): How strange is the saga of Rich Hill this season? While perhaps not unprecedented, this whole situation just seems like one of the more bizarre collapses I can ever recall a successful starting pitcher experiencing.John Perrotto: It’s very strange. Again, Lou Piniella is a demanding manager and some guys get psyched out by him. I think Rich Hill is still a very good bet to have a good career. He just needs to get in a differet environment.
Does Lou have a lot of control with the Cubs, as he has had in other stops?
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
Bucholz
Id try real hard to get him from Boston.
Any kind of package involving Laird, Bradley, Milwood/Padilla better have Buckholz coming back.
Please Stop!!!!
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
You must write TR alot
Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love .
by Brian Thomas on Jun 24, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Why the hell would Boston trade Buchholz?
They would only do this is they absolutely needed to or if someone blew their minds with an offer. I don’t really see that happening.
But why would they trade Buchholz?
Needing a bat does not equal reason to trade Buchholz.
by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions
just to play devils advocate
the reason I believe people think that they may trade buchholz is that they have (or had before all the injuries) more than enough starting pitching, with several of them being young or in their prime (dice-k, beckett, lester, masterson, buccholz, bowden) coupled with the fact that buccholz has kind of struggled at least according to what he has done in the past.
The fact of the matter is that this is not a really good argument though. He is a young pitcher and is going to have his struggles. Also, as evidenced by their injuries this year, you can never have enough pitching. Add to all of that is the fact that he was the number one pitching prospect going into this year and he will not be traded.
This argument that he could be traded is much like our situation that jamey mentioned a while back. Boston has too good of a farm system and when people want to talk trade with them it is assumed that you would have to get back one of their top prospects like clay, when the fact of the matter is that they have plenty other very good prospects that any team would be happy to have back in a trade. If you could get (not saying they would offer it) two of justin masterson, michael bowden and daniel bard plus a positional prospect like lars anderson for milton bradley you wouldnt take it? JD would be crazy to turn that down, heck I’d throw in TT as well to make that happen.
I disagree
i think it is a legit argument. If Ortiz is out long-term the Sox need to replace that bat…without Big Papi that lineup suffers considerably. Bradley could be the answer.
Im not saying
they wouldnt need bradley, what Im saying is I highly doubt they trade buccholz for him and the fact of the matter is that they dont need to include him to make us a very attractive offer that we would be foolish to turn down.
I know that
What I’m saying is that the Rangers should add a few more pieces in an attempt to acquire Buchholz.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
No Bucholz! NEVER!
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
CC
anybody want to sign him for Johan money, 6 yrs 137.5MM??
Stats don't lie
Paul Pierce >> Soft Nowitzki
Wonder how he would do in that Texas heat...
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
id like to see them
make a play for homer bailey. i think this team could always use a texas fireballer like him, and perhaps his ugly performance in the bigs so far will lower his value enough for the risk to be worth it.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Jun 28, 2008 7:01 PM CDT reply actions
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