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A Salty Situation

Tiny by jsm on

I've been pondering this, and as much as I dislike it, I think trading Salty is the best way to start getting some clarity on our Catcher/1B/DH situation.  First let me say that I am a huge Salty fan.  I think he will develop into an elite offensive catcher and an adequate, if not average, defensive catcher.  I like the way he interacts with the pitching staff.  I like the way he calls games.  He has an excellent arm.  His pop times and accuracy are pretty bad, but they can improve with work.

That being said, catcher is clearly an organizational strength.  3B and Pitching are not.  I think there has to be a Matt Garza/Delmon Young type trade out there, with Salty leaving from our side.  One where we trade our high upside, young prospect who needs no more time in the minors, and who is ready to finish learning his craft in the majors, for a similar type player at another position.  What would the equivalent be to Garza/Young, with the player coming back at a position of need for us?  I think everyone here would do Salty straight up for Bucholz, Joba, or Longoria.  Those are shooting too high of course.  I'm wondering what trades you would do that the teams involve would actually consider.  Homer Bailey?  LaRoche?

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i think this is a pretty prevelant viewpoint

i wouldnt have a problem trading salty either.

but only for real legit value. im not worried about his arm. I dont think he will be able to stay at catcher into his 30s(well, unless he meets his max offensive potential and noone cares about his defense at all), but we dont have to worry about that.

it would need to be a really good AA pitching prospect at least, if not someone with some mlb time. im a bit worried about bailey after reading various reports on him, but thats about right anyway.

Bring up Chris Davis

by DSheppard on Jun 23, 2008 4:32 PM CDT   0 recs

To this day

I still don’t understand what the rush it to “resolve” the catching situation. I suspect that everyone’s impatience is the same instinct as the one that calls for every prospect mentioned in a minors diary to be promoted and for guys who have no business in the majors to get cameos, but I’m not sure. Why don’t we see what Saltalamacchia does with the rest of this season, how healthy Teagarden can get/stay, and whether Ramirez looks anything like a catcher, before we get so anxious to start dealing these guys away.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:33 PM CDT   0 recs

Oh and

I’ve probably said this before, but I also think that a lot of folks have chosen a side (or a corner) and just want the guy(s) who’s in the way of his favorite out of the way.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Again

Texas pitching, with a few exceptions, really kind of sucks from A+ on up.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 4:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Still not a reason to go dealing your young catchers

Because we’ve got plenty of young pitchers in the organization that are gonna be pretty good too.

A Lonestar in California

by lonestarJon on Jun 23, 2008 4:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So?

That’s pretty much what I was saying in the first post. I don’t see how doin the deal now instead of this winter necessarily gets you any closer in terms of pitching. In all likelyhood you are either talking about the same guy or a more established one later. The only difference is that everyone can feel good now because the “bird” is in hand.

Unless you think that Saltalamacchia’s value will do nothing but deteriorate (and I know that some do think that), you’re not any better off by doing the deal this summer.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Salty

I do wonder about whether he’s overhyped.

And, talented or no, he’s an unlikely trade piece at this time.

But when Laird got hurt and the team said they really wanted Tea up, it made me think Salty or Tea could handle backing up Laird. Strictly speaking, that makes one of them expendable.

If JD puts out that message and somebody dangles a really nice arm, and especially if you think they want the inferior catcher in return—you do the trade.

Again, it makes more sense this winter. But if I’m JD, I’d be down whenever.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 4:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I can understand

if someone doesn’t believe in him and basically wants to salvage as much value as possible. Otherwise, I just doubt that his value is where you’d hope.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 5:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you start to post "for sale" signs for the catchers on every utility pole

You will not get good value in return because other teams will feel they have leverage. I am sure that teams who are looking for catchers will know JD has extras and will have inquired. JD is no doubt listening at this point, but there is no hurry.

by Telegraph on Jun 23, 2008 5:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

link

Link

Washington said the Rangers would have called up catcher Taylor Teagarden from Triple-A Oklahoma, but he is sidelined with a sore shoulder.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 11:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, you meant...

“really” as in “in actuality”... I thought you meant “a whole lot”

by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 11:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

-1

I disagree with that statement. Thats not to say that nobody is saying things like that, however I think a majority of the people are simply trying to find a way to maximize value.

I for instance, am a salty fan and think he should not be traded. As the current rosters both minor and major league, stand salty will not be getting starters time, which he needs to grow and mature as a professional ball player. Now if you can keep laird, once healthy again, and add a big time pitching prospect that would not be available under most any other circumstance to us, then you have to consider it.

Personally I think the way to go might be a step under what is being suggested and rather than trade major league ready prospects like salty, we should trade TT for a top minor league pitcher if possible. I think TT for Bowden might benefit both sides, whether either side would be amenable to such a deal is anyones guess, but for the time being I am content to let the situation play out, personal preferences aside.

by rchawk12 on Jun 23, 2008 4:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thats not to say that nobody is saying things like that, however I think a majority of the people are simply trying to find a way to maximize value.

No, people are trying to find a way to maximize value NOW.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ok

that i agree with, something i really tried to stress at the end of that post. I think mostly though its just people getting caught up in trade fever. This is one of the hottest times of the year for the hot stove and with not many rumors getting thrown out yet, people have a tendency to create them. I get it, I like everyone am guilty of it at times and its probably one of the main reasons we come to sites like these and discuss baseball and the rangers so passionately.

by rchawk12 on Jun 23, 2008 4:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

The other thing rchawk12’s saying is Salty might not get the opportunity he needs to grow into a ML-caliber catcher here.

Maybe he’s a guy who has to be made The Guy, here he’s feeling crowded.

So deal him somewhere that appreciates him, cause they’ll probably pay accordingly.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 5:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, possible

In that case, it just really depends on what his value is right now. If it’s not enough to get someone who has a really good chance to be a 3+ starter or quality SS, I think I’d risk it and hold my cards.

Also, it is looking like he’ll at least get somewhat of a shot for a while here. I think that it’s very possible that at least defensively he’ll settle down.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 5:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

im pretty disappointed with every1's perspective on the situation

The goal is for a long term window of success where we can dominate for a WS title, and these people all want us to trade salty for a pitcher to compliment our 1 and 2 pitchers which wont be here past 2010, they all wanna keep MB who is a FA and can and will walk for a much bigger salary then i want this team to give’m. They wanna keep laird who wont be here bast ‘09. Its insanity. I think im starting to realize there are 2 camps:

1) the let this puppy develop camp: this group sees the progress over the last 3 seasons in the farm system and reallizes that as long as we dont totally screw up or give away the top prospects in our farm to fill holes now and fake compete within 3-5 seasons we have a chance to be one of the very best teams in basbeball.

2) the maximize everything now and compete as soon as possible camp: this group favors signing MB long term, they advocate selling salty for pitching b/c laird is will do till TT is here (ignoring TT is a walking injury, never mind his struggles this season).

maybe im mistaken but i swear, a lot of people are taking our catching situation for granted. they see all these guys as starters and we are so set that what are we gonna do? they arent all gonna be starters and some may return to mediocrity and some may get injured and some may not be able to play C in the majors. The surest bet for long term success at the catcher position for the texas rangers is salty. all the rest we need to maximize their value and get them the hell out of town for pitching.

"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08

"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
-FOTF 5/20/2008

"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008

by Jayslick on Jun 23, 2008 5:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree...

however those suggesting trading are not saying it for the sake of trading. All of the names are young top of the rotation potential types like the most commonly mentioned, clay bucholz.

by rchawk12 on Jun 23, 2008 8:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bucholz

The next person that mentions trading for Bucholz needs to be slapped!

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 8:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Im not saying we can or will get him

I am using him as an example of the context of pitchers we MIGHT be looking at IF we do decide to trade salty. All I said was that he was the most commonly mentioned pitcher we should trade for, not that we could trade for him.

In fact I said that all of these rumors are nothing more than conjecture at this point due to the fact that the hot stove is just beginning to heat up and since there are no real rumors at this point, people are looking at needs and guessing to what could be available… with a great deal of bias. Its what fans do, especially fanatics like us. It is all supposed to be good and fun and realistically I dont see anyway the red sox would trade him, nor do I expect them to do so.

by rchawk12 on Jun 23, 2008 9:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't really targeting you

I’m just saying he is mentioned all the time as someone we should go after and it makes me want to scream!

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 9:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL to clarify

Not b/c we shouldn’t go after him but b/c they will not trade him. Period!

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 9:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yea

There is no way they trade him. This is kind of getting out of hand and frankly Im tired of defending people who think we can get him. Its nice to dream, but at some point you have to wake up.

by rchawk12 on Jun 23, 2008 9:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

impatience

it can just be irritating to watch salty(or laird for that matter) go 5 for 5 and then sit the next 2-3 days.

obviously laird is down right now, but what if salty has a great 3 weeks both offensively and defensively (progress at least), but then laird comes back? Laird will be a problem if he loses playing time because he was injured, salty will be frustrated if he performs as a starter but then is back to 3 days a week.

I dont think we need to get rid of 2 or 3 of the 4 catchers or anything, but Id like to have one starter at some point..

Bring up Chris Davis

by DSheppard on Jun 23, 2008 4:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why deal from the catcher position?

Because the pitching position sucks? Is that what you’re asking?

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 4:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying don't ever deal from the catcher position

I’m saying wait for the optimal opportunity, which doesn’t appear to be the current moment.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I don’t see the rush. This situation will sort itself out before too long. I mean, if Salty can be dealt for a studly young starter like Joba, then fine yeah go for it. Otherwise, I don’t thing the Rangers should deal him just for the sake of dealing him. We’d be left with inconsistent Laird, often-injured Teagarden, and Max, who might not even be able to handle catcher. No reason to turn a strength into a problem.

"You’re the only here who contributes schtick only." - brettgardner

by trza on Jun 23, 2008 4:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Probably because

of the number of other holes this team has? Anytime you can trade a backup for a starter its probably a good deal, so trading either Laird or Salty to fill some of the pitching, OF , or fix the SS/3B holes that we have longer term would probably be a help.

Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it

by DJCahill on Jun 23, 2008 4:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you completely ignore value, sure

But you don’t sell when a stock is low, you sell when it’s high. And you also don’t KNOW that you have depth at catcher.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Trading Laird

is probably selling high. Aa far as Salty, we will see how he develops defensively. Right now he is pretty bad, and if he shares his Dad’s attitude, that it is everyone else’s fault, then I don’t know how much he will improve.

Sharky said it, I believe it, that settles it

by DJCahill on Jun 24, 2008 5:13 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So

the last few games he’s been “pretty bad” huh? Hows that again? BTW, when did I blame “everyone else”?

by 525DP on Jun 24, 2008 8:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

When you blamed the pitchers

for his horrific CS%. These are the same pitchers that Laird keeps a perfectly respectable CS% with before they called Salty up.

Kobe, tell me how my ass tastes - Shaq

by DJCahill on Jun 24, 2008 8:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, well

Another one that thinks throwing out runners is the most important skill a backstop posesses. I said that the pitchers have a lot to do with runners stealing bases and he was catching the young guys concentrating more on their pitches than the baserunners which is what he wanted them to work on. He never caught Millwood and rarely caught Padilla. Our two best pitchers at holding runners on. So how about elaborating on the first part of my question?

by 525DP on Jun 24, 2008 9:15 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think...

what I find troubling is that neither you nor the younger Salty seem to be acknowledging his defensive problems. They’re not going to get better if he keeps insisting that he’s a great defensive catcher.

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Jun 24, 2008 10:28 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't recall

him ever insisting he was a great defensive catcher. I remember reading quotes where he said he is working hard every day to get better both offensively AND defensively. For example, did you know that he has always been the first at the park and the last one to leave, even when the coaches suggest he doesnt ned to do that? That he always tries to get extra work and when coaches arent available works on things by himself? I don’t think that looks like a guy that doesnt acknowledge he needs work defensively. I personally believe a player needs to constantly work on their skills throughout their careers if they want to stay at the top of their game as do attorneys, journalists or anyone in the work force, no?

by 525DP on Jun 24, 2008 11:12 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Geez, another diary about this subject?

Sheesh…

Of the guys you mentioned, Longoria, Buchholz and Joba are pretty much untouchable. Homer Bailey is really the only guy there that might be realistically avilable to us. Andy LaRoche’s injury has sapped his power, and the Dodgers don’t need a catcher or a first baseman.

As far as third basemen go, I like Chase Headley of the Padres, myself – that might be something worth looking into if they offered him and a pitcher for Salty and a mid-level prospect. As for pitchers I wouldn’t go dealing Salty for anything less than someone like Bailey and Michael Bowden.

However…

I don’t think we ough to deal Salty at all, or Teagarden or MaxRam. I think we need to hold on to all our young catchers until next year, until out which one is our starter. Once we do, then we can deal one of the other two for that high-end pitcher.

I know AJM loves OMFT, and people like to score points with him by talking Salty trades, but in reality, Laird is the only catcher we have that it makes any sense to deal.

A Lonestar in California

by lonestarJon on Jun 23, 2008 4:36 PM CDT   0 recs

+1

I think someone really needs to solidify themselves as the starting catcher before we go dealing catchers away.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 4:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But aren't you the guy who doesn't want

Max getting ANY time behind the plate? I mean, if you want to find out who is going to be the starter, don’t you have to let him play back there?

by Dirk Diggler on Jun 23, 2008 6:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

nope i never said that

if you can find it by all means…

my take on max is that he needs to be a backup C and DH combo who can play 1st in a jam. for me, thats only b/c i saw his hitting stats as a C and DH are identical but 1b it dropped to like way below the mendoza so im just playing it safe. I do realize that flexibility gets you AB’s though and if he has the ability to play the IF’s it will help. Hell, id like to see max at 3rd in a blowout or sumpn just to see how he handles it. i never new he had a history there.

max can be a C though probably not everyday but enough and get AB’s at DH and possibly 1b. right now, that kids a catcher though and his bat makes it where he is a good DH. thats how i would prefer we use him. if we have to put him at 1b a bit til Davis is up…. so be it.

"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08

"There is no reason for me to move to third base," Young said.
-FOTF 5/20/2008

"Well, we are one of the cheapest teams in Major League Baseball"
-Tom Hicks 4/8/2008

by Jayslick on Jun 23, 2008 7:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Heh

From what I’ve heard, I don’t think Max is ever gonna be stater back there. Backup/DH yes, but the starter battle is between Salty and Tea.

A Lonestar in California

by lonestarJon on Jun 23, 2008 7:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Everybody?

I thought that was the common preconception, that Max’s defense wasn’t going to be good enough to allow him to start.

A Lonestar in California

by lonestarJon on Jun 23, 2008 7:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's a common opinion

based on what people knew as of last winter. But things change. I don’t know if we should make the jump to manually removing Ramirez from the possible starting catcher equation just yet.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 7:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Both Ramirez and Salty are NOT

plus defensive players. They are actually quite average. Seems to me Teagarden is the best guy behind the plate but the worst at it. Between Ramirez and Salty who do you think has the ability to get better behind the plate? Just wondering…

by booyahcaveman on Jun 24, 2008 11:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And by average

i mean not especially good ha.

by booyahcaveman on Jun 24, 2008 11:05 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Saltalamacchia

I just don’t think that we should close the door on Ramirez until the Rangers do.

by zywica on Jun 24, 2008 12:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah it really does

seem like a lot of this talk is really premature. Ramirez, salty and TT are all really young and unproven. As the saying goes, let the cream rise to the top. I mean might as well just let them all compete and then hopefully we keep the best 2 out of the 3. Of course the odd man out will have lost a little bit of his trade value but I will gladly sacrifice that knowing that the Rangers kept the best two. I do think Laird will get traded this off season.

by booyahcaveman on Jun 24, 2008 1:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

90%

of the talk about any Ranger or Rangers prospect is premature on LSB. People want every prospect doing even moderately well promoted yesterday and every Ranger not playing well traded last week.

...and curse Sir Sidney Ponson, he was such a stupid git.

by t ball on Jun 24, 2008 4:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think...

anybody around here looks to “score points with Adam.”

"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."

by benmor78 on Jun 23, 2008 10:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I do.

And I will continue to until he loves A.J. Burnett.

by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 11:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Salty trade

It’s a weird deadline deal because no contender’s looking for a catcher who’s wet behind the ears.

But Boston’s probably partial to Bradley. They’re old at DH and in LF.

Their side, Bowden’s put it together in AA (the only wart being his flyball tendencies).

Bradley’s too rich for him.

However, would Boston give Bucholz if you add Saltalamacchia to Bradley?

Adam was kind of talking about this strategy on the Newberg board.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 4:36 PM CDT   0 recs

Bucholz

I really just can’t see Boston trading him within the next couple of years unless something drastic happens.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 4:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ugh
However, would Boston give Bucholz if you add Saltalamacchia to Bradley?

Nope.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 4:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Probably not

But it’s a start. If Bucholz has a price, you can get there with this farm, and Bradley+Salty is a very substantial start given both team’s positions.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 5:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here's the thing

How often does a completely major league ready guy with no service time, but who his team is pretty sure is a #1 or maybe #2 starter, get dealt? And when he does get dealt, how often is it not for an established ace?

There is a reason that it happens so seldom. We just can’t get Buchholz because we just don’t have the pitcher to make it worth their while. Just like you’re saying from our pespective, they’ve got plenty of other excellent assets who, compiled, should be plenty to get what they’d like to get.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 5:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

The one recent example is, of course, Kazmir.

But it’s not likely. Arms slightly below Bucholz are going to be in play in deadline deals this year though.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jun 23, 2008 5:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah I'm not discounting arms just below Buchholz

As far as Kazmir, the people who made that deal were not convinced that he was a front of the rotation starter (or that he was anywhere near ready), and that goes down as the most idiotic deal in years and years. Hoping for a replay of that is a waste of time.

by zywica on Jun 23, 2008 5:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kazmir

Expanding on what Z said the Kazmir trade also went down in a time when young controllable pitching wasn’t nearly as valued as it was today. It was made by a GM barely holding on to his job in a desperate and misguided attempt to make a run at the playoffs which failed miserably.

I could go on and on about how this was a desperate trade by a win now franchise and a once in a lifetime situation.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 23, 2008 9:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

3 Cheers for Steve Phillips!

I’m glad he’s the one giving us insight on Baseball Tonight. At least we’ve got El Conquistador de Puerto Rico in our TV booth (Tom Grieve).

by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 11:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok... extreme...

but thanks for Juan and Pudge.

by NoNameOnCard on Jun 23, 2008 11:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

steve phillips

had nothing to do with this trade. this is an oft repeated mistake around the blogosphere

Rare Gnats Sex

by ab03 on Jun 23, 2008 11:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 24, 2008 12:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what i meant to say was...

that I’m glad Steve Phillips drafted Kazmir so that Duquette would be in such a unique position as to even entertain trading Kazmir for Zambrano… so, yeah, I wasn’t being sarcastic… give that man 3 cheers for not passing on the kid, who has obvious talent… yeah, I suck

by NoNameOnCard on Jun 24, 2008 12:07 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Uhh

Jim Duqette was actually the GM at the time of that deal. Steve Phillips was fired during the 2003 season, but you do have him to thank for Mo Vaughn, Ronny Cendeno, and Roberto Alomar.

This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC

by nikpin on Jun 24, 2008 12:00 AM CDT