OT: Baron Davis and NBA Free Agency
by ghtd36 on Jun 30, 2008 10:27 PM CDT
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PrintThe NBA Free Agent market opens at 11 p.m. CST, which is about 50 minutes from now.
Gilbert Arenas is obviously the big prize, but it seems pretty inevitable that Agent Zero will end up back in Washington.
More interesting to me is Baron Davis, who opted out of his deal with the Warriors tonight, leaving almost $18 million on the table.
A reminder: Baron Davis averaged 21.8 points, 7.6 assists and 2.3 steals last season for Golden State.
The big dilemma is whether or not to spend money this offseason, knowing that there are huge free agent classes looming in 2009 (Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Allen Iverson, Corey Maggette) and 2010 (Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal, Rip Hamilton), not to mention what could be of the free agent classes if players exercise their right to opt out (2009: Steve Nash, Carlos Boozer; 2010: Amare Stoudamire, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Michael Redd).
My question is, if you are the Mavericks, do you make a run at Baron Davis, knowing what free agent classes are approaching in upcoming years?
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Make a run how?
Golden State would have to be willing to work out a sign and trade, and Davis is going to be looking for a big payday.
Yep
And I don’t think Terry or Dampier, and a 2012 first round pick (which is the next draft choice the Mavs can deal), is going to interest them.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 30, 2008 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Josh Howard might
Not many people over at the Warriorsworld board saw this coming. The board is going at a hectic pace right now, in case you want to spy on reactions.
Bleh.
I sure wouldn’t want Davis over Howard, even if it were possible.
by brettgardner on Jun 30, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
I mean he doesn’t fit with the Mavs. But if we’re in la la ville and talking player for player, you wouldn’t trade Howard for Davis? Cause I sure as heck would.
Even if they wanted to
They can’t.. Any big FA this off season is off the table. Not because they don’t want them because they can’t. Only got the MLE.
re:
http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2008/6/30/561714/sign-and-trade-for-diop
Dino Radja >>> Soft Nowitzki
shit aint even a real sport
why am i supposed tp take ur position on LSB serious when you ignore the corruption and fake sport that the NBA is like it has even remotely the same legitimacy as MLB….
get real or get a clue.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
How about...
Ron Artest for Josh Howard??
With Rick Carlisle as the head coach, I could be a possibilty.
If Mavs somehow get Corey Maggette
then they just might have something.
Dino Radja >>> Soft Nowitzki
They almost got
him from LA last year f or JET. Man, that would’ve been a steal
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
Hold off until next year
After kidd’s salary is off the table, then the mavs can make some big time free agent splashes. I’m definitely willing to watch what these mavericks can do for a year to potentially get one of the huge names next year (and the year after).
baseBALLIN!
I dont think so
i have the mavs at 50.6 million with the luxury tax level at at least 67 million
baseBALLIN!
yep
its 50.6 when he comes off... but thats assuming there are no signings between now and then… highly unlikely
NBA =
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
i mean its a fake crap illegitimate sport run by lotto and corrupt refs on the take that makes MLB and other sports look like mother theresa
otherwise…..
keep on chatting on the inner dynamics of the nba…
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
illegitimizing sports
seeing that you are a soccer fan (from your profile picture), i think you might know about the 2006 juventes team (including other major italian soccer teams like ac milan and reggina in serie A and serie B). that was the definition of illegitimizing a sport.
baseBALLIN!
i do know
a fake shit league from a real one. Seria A is a shit league. Italy = shit defensive football and flopping losers and refs on the take.
NBA: if you dont see a very similar situation between Italian Footy and NBA…... I’ll buy you a pepsi…
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
Would definately be an interesting fit here
Probably won’t work money wise, but if he’s healthy, he and Dirk would be a pretty formidable front line.
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
Doesn't matter...
Celtics have everyone they need comin’ back.
I smell a repeat. Start telling me that’s impossible now Miles.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
It's going to be New Orleans' year
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
mavs
are more likely to go after diop, mikes, udrih than any real big names like brand, maggette, davis
Well
When you literally cannot afford, either through cap or talent, to acquire somebody, what’s the point of going after them?
by brettgardner on Jun 30, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
These opt outs
Are essentially worthless moves because they really won’t find any other team able to pay them what they would be making. Posturing.
Same price?
Where’s Baron Davis gonna go at the same price?
Atlanta?
by brettgardner on Jun 30, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you shitting me?
I hope this is sarcasm.
by brettgardner on Jun 30, 2008 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions
But...but...but...
He’s Bassy!!! There was a movie featuring him!!! Stephen A. Smith loves him!!!
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Saw this at mavsmoneyball... Beno Udrih?
Udrih to DallasThe sentiment that Gana Diop will return to Dallas is growing stronger by the day, and it also appears that Kings guard Beno Udrih will be heading for the warmer climes of the Metroplex. The Mavericks would like to have a true point guard behind Jason Kidd and Udrih proved himself more than capable when he took the helm of the Kings last season. Plenty of suitors have inquired about the former Spur, but the word is the Mavericks have the inside track. Does this set up a trade for Jason Terry? It’s possible – maybe even likely. But don’t underestimate the possibility that the Mavs bring back their core group, which includes Jet. Terry played for new Mavs assistant Terry Stotts in Atlanta and the two are very much looking forward to the reunion.
In my opinion
Not much. He’d just be matching money for another bad contract.
by brettgardner on Jun 30, 2008 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
udrih
i like him long term as a solid pg when kidd leaves
but for next year, adding udrih and losing terry would be a step back
udrih
Sign Udrih, Diop and try to trade Terry or Howard for Vince Carter or trade Terry, Howard for Brand.
Because someone has to stand around making Dirk look gangster as hell
while he pretends to jump over an Aston Martin.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Welll..
We haven’t a man with a big body besides Erick Dampier, and well he is garbage. The Lakers have a glut of big men. We should look into it. I like him as a big coming off the bench.
Why.. its pretty simple..
in the game of basketball, the closer you are to the basket, the better chance you have at making baskets and defending the goal from shots being made. Erick Dampier, is Erick Dampier a year older, he is not very good at making shots or preventing shots from being made. So we have to look for big men, and they’re just aren’t alot of good ones out there that can be had. Ronny Turiaf is young, he has a big body, a little bit of skill, and alot of heart. He is someone you would want on your team. He may be available, he may not.. Channing Frye is another one the Mavs should look into.. Nene as well. Any others?
Well
Turiaf isn’t very good. I know he’s Lazarus and everybody loves him now, but the truth is he’s not much more than a nice little backup. He’s a slightly taller Bass.
Channing Frye? Good lord. Yeah, that’s what the Mavs need—a tall skinny guy who never goes inside and plays no defense.
Nene? Come on, man.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Hype machine at work
But I found this somewhat interesting.
Lebron lists his favorite cities
James listed New York as his favorite city Monday (his hometown of Akron, Ohio came in fifth behind Washington D.C., Dallas, and Los Angeles) as he took part in a one-day USA Basketball media blitz, and he also gave an answer to a follow-up question that’ll make Knicks president Donnie Walsh and head coach Mike D’Antoni cringe.
Let’s just purge our cap and hope for Lebron. That’s as good as any chance we have.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
What are we going to get
for Jason Kidd’s expiring contract?
T.J. Ford, Nesterovic, and Anthony Parker
or
Kirk Hinrich, Larry Hughes, and Tyrus Thomas
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
And.....
Parker, Ford and Nesterovic aren’t going to be on the same team anymore. But I’d quickly do that Chicago deal before John Paxson realizes what he is doing…
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
Neither of those make any sense.
For various reasons.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Welll..
Chicago in not in the question for Kidd, with Rose..
Denver, Atlanta, and The Knicks could use an upgrade at the PG position.
Not right now at least
I do think it’s possible his contract gets traded at some point though. Over $20M of an expiring contract is a huge asset to have in the NBA. Of course, AJM just ignores that part.
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 1, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd take
Carter and Sean Williams for him…
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
No, I don't
I’m saying that I don’t know that 1) the Mavs are going to move him this year, and 2) I don’t know that there is a ton they are going to get back for it.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Which makes you wonder
if any of them have any clue what they’re doing.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 1, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
^^^^^^^^^^^
Mark Cuban
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
OK
But no contract is untradeable in the NBA. Especially with the talent that could be available in 2010, his expriring contract is an asset either way.
Say they keep Kidd’s contract, but are able to clear guys like Damp and Terry off the books somehow…then Kidd’s contract will look real nice when guys like Lebron opt out.
Either way it’s an asset—and clearly they’re not in as bad of a place long term as you say they are.
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 1, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
i think Kidd is as good as gone
with the only chance he stays being that this team is one of the favorites when February rolls around (don’t see it happening).
I just picked Toronto and Chicago because they both have backup PGs signed to expense, LT deals right now (Ford and Hinrich). They are looking to move them, and I’m sure they will take a PG back when it’s an expiring contract.
If the Mavs a) resign Kidd or b) let him walk away for nothing when it won’t create any cap room, it will be the worst mistake the franchise has made. Cuban is too savvy to let either of those situations take place.
Kidd is gone.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Won't create any cap room?
Toronto has a PG who’s better than Kidd right now, sorry to say.
Chicago just drated one.
I’m not sure you have an accurate grasp of the situation.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
It won't, will it?
We’ll still be over the cap even if we let Kidd walk after next season, right?
And I think he’s saying that Chicago would be looking to deal Hinrich for Kidd because Hinrich is useless with Rose there now and cause Kidd’s contract is expiring, not cause they, like, need Kidd or anything.
Although Toronto really doesn’t work since they already dealt Ford for JO earlier this week.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Jul 1, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I take Atlanta back,
Forgot they got Bibby.. though Kidd would be a better fit with those athletes. If only we could get our hands on Marvin Williams.
Cleveland definitely needs an upgrade at PG.
exactly
although I feel like an idiot for not seeing the Ford for JO trade. I just got back from vacation and have been out of the loop for the last week.
Still, Chicago doesn’t need (or want) Kidd…they’d just be looking to get rid of a worse contract, and they would get cap relief when Kidd’s contract expires.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
It creates
Cap room, even if we’re still over the cap.
It’s not an accurate characterization.
But why would Chicago just throw away valuable assets to get a guy they don’t need and have no use for? They’re not exactly hindered by the cap. Just doing a little bit of estimation, I figure after next season they’ll have, with new contracts and all, about 40-45 million committed. That’s not too bad with a ~57 cap.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really
He’s not committed to big money long-term.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes...
But he is now.
Kidd wasn’t and still isn’t.
It’s really a shitty comparison.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Er.
Wait.
I’m gonna stop talking about stuff for awhile.
I think I need to let the game come to me.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
At least the M's can still trade Bedard for something of value.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
Why can't the Mavs do the same?
a $20M expiring contract is huge in the NBA, unlike a big money contract in MLB.
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 1, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the Kidd trade is worse
If I were the Mariners I might be more sick about losing Tillman than Jones, but that’s really all of significance that they gave up, and they have plenty of other good young players and avenues to improve. For Dallas, they had one good young player, and no avenue to improve beyond the draft picks, which they dealt.
I think that if you relate the assets to the the sport, Dallas hurt itself more.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 1, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
you guys are acting like expiring contracts are worthless?
Do you guys forget how Theo Ratliff’s expiring contract helped the Celtics turn Al Jefferson into KG?
Do you guys forget how Kwame Brown’s expiring contract helped the Lakers grab Gasol?
Sure, those deals may be considered as extreme cases, but remember that Kidd is better than both of those players (considerably), and his expiring contract is worth much more than either of those situations.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
As mentioned above
You’re operating under the assumption that Dallas will trade Kidd. Because of Mark Cuban’s approach, the only way I could see them deciding to deal him in time to get anyting in trade is if they are out of the playoff picture before the deadline.
I hope you’re right, but I really don’t think they intend to deal him.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 1, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think
they intended to deal him when they dealt for him, but they should know by watching the team in the spring that Kidd isn’t the answer.
I think dealing Kidd is the ONLY thing that makes sense at this point. Keeping him does not, and resigning him definitely does not. It may be some sort of admission of failure on Cuban’s part, but he’s not the type of guy that got rich by making dumb decisions. For the most part, he’s an incredibly savvy owner.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Look at the pattern of behavior
They have consistently overrated their team for the past two years. All evidence points to them continuing to do so currently.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 1, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
The NBA
Gives too much false hope, which is exactly what Cuban is going to hold onto. We’ll be a 6-8 seed, get our butts whooped in the first round and this valuable trade asset will walk for nothing. We’d have to be damn terrible for Cuban to trade Kidd before the deadline, and as long as Dirk is healthy, I don’t see that happening.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
An expiring contract...
...has value in one of two scenarios:
1) When a team has a contract that runs longer than the expiring deal that it wants to give away (see, e.g., Pau Gasol); or
2) When a team has young, cheap assets that it wants to move for a bigger, more expensive asset, and it needs a big, short-term deal to throw in to make the salaries work (see, e.g., Kevin Garnett)
The problem with #2 is that the Mavs don’t have any Al Jeffersons to deal. They don’t have any good, cheap young players to package with Kidd to get a Garnett.
So they are pretty much hemmed in to #1, and have to look for a team that wants to dump a contract in exchange for nothing but an expiring deal.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think your #2
“could” apply to the Mavs though.
Sure, Josh Howard isn’t as young as Jefferson is, but if he starts the season well next year (like he did this season), he will have some value.
Also, I’m a big believer in Brandon Bass – obviously not to the level that Jefferson has become, but I think he will be a solid starter on some team in the future (great athleticism, good outside shot, terrific FT shooter, decent low-post game, good rebounder for his size).
I think Kidd is gone, and if you have to package Howard or Bass with him to get back something even more substantial, then so be it. Still, there will be plenty of teams that will want to clear out cap room for Joe Johnson, Allen Iverson, Rasheed Wallace, Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, and Ron Artest (and that’s just the UFAs that I can think of). So, even if there are no takers on Howard or Bass, I think there will still be plenty of teams out there that will be willing to take on Kidd in an effort to gain cap relief (Chicago’s Hinrich jumps out at me as an obvious option right now since Dallas would need a PG with Kidd leaving in the deal).
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Sorry
Josh Howard signed a $40-million extension in 06, so he’s not cheap enough to pair with Kidd.
Bass may be a solid player, but nobody’s going to trade a great player for an expiring contract and Kidd.
I still don’t see the value of Kidd’s contract as a tradeable asset.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
*expiring contract and Bass
The fact is Cuban thinks we compete, and all we’ll be competing for is the honor to lose to the Spurs or Lakers in the first round.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
the Lakers turned an expiring contract and a pile of crap
into Pau Gasol. Surely, the Mavs can turn an expiring contract over twice the size of Kwame Brown’s into something very helpful, albeit overpriced.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
I think....
You’re skimming over the part where we’re arguing that the Mav’s probably won’t raise the white flag and trade Kidd for anything. Cuban and co. honestly think this is a championship caliber team. I think Dirk would have to blow out his knee before they even attempt to trade Kidd.
Joe Morgan: (On Jay Bruce) I think he will. He brings energy to the team, and besides that, he is a pretty good hitter.
Ken Tremendous: I like that the #1 reason he will help his team is: "energy," and the distant #2 reason is: "ability to hit baseballs."
Let's hope Kidd blows out his knee
it’s not like that would hurt his trade value.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Sure
That happens occasionally. Conceptually, is it possible that someone will make a deal like that with the Mavs?
Sure.
I think it is very unlikely to occur, though.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
it happens occassionally, but
I think if there is any expiring contract dealt this season, Kidd’s is the best one that teams looking for cap room would target.
The Knicks would love to get him for example. I know there aren’t a lot of Zach Randolph fans in here, but getting Randolph back for Kidd is better than getting a 1st round loss and salary savings when he walks as a FA.
Cuban knows this. The only thing that will save Kidd from being dealt is if they come out on fire next year, where they are a legit contender at the trading deadline.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
1 more option
a lot of people here in Houston are ready to see T-Mac traded.
If the Rockets flounder next year, I could see the Rockets be interested in Kidd for the sole purposes of avoiding the final year of T-Mac’s deal and clearing cap room for someone else. Sure, Dallas would have to sweeten the pot.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Here's the problem
Sure, Dallas would have to sweeten the pot.
What do they have to “sweeten the pot” with?
The next first rounder they can trade is the 2012 pick. The only young player with value they could kick in is Brandon Bass, but he’s a PF, and they already have Luis Scola, Carl Landry, and that other guy there.
There simply aren’t any other tradeable assets the Mavs have to “sweeten the pot” in any such deal.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Adam
you are here in Houston. They have been asking for a 3rd scorer forever. Their offense is abysmal, and with both T-Mac and Yao on the team, the injury risk is too high to count on everything coming together for them.
How about (thinking bigger, and obviously this has too much going on in it for it to ever happen, but it was fun to think about) sending Kidd, Terry, AND Josh Howard to the Rockets for T-Mac, Battier, Alston, Bobby Jackson, Luther Head, and Steve Francis?
Rockets:
PG Kidd – Aaron Brooks
SG Terry – MLE
SF Howard – Donte Green – Steve Novak
PF Luis Scola – Carl Landry – Chuck Hayes – Joey Dorsey
C Yao Ming – Dikembe Mutombo
Why would the Rockets do this? It gives them a much more talented team in the immediate future, while also allowing for SIGNIFICANT cap savings next summer with Kidd’s departure. It basically speeds up their cap flexibility. While neither Terry nor Howard’s contracts are great values, they would probably rather pay those guys than Bobby Jackson, Rafer Alston, Steve Francis, Luther Head, and Shane Battier (combined).
Mavs would end up with:
PG Alston / cheap FA / Bobby Jackson
SG McGrady / A. Wright / Head / Francis
SF Battier / Stackhouse / George
PF Nowitzki / Bass
C Dampier / Diop
Why would Dallas do it? A more defensive lineup, and a legit crunchtime scorer to pair with Dirk in T-Mac.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Of course you don't think it's likely
To think otherwise would go against your Bash the Mavs mantra.
They can absolutely trade Kidd for valuable pieces if it is neccessary. If not, they can just let him walk, and that gets $20M off the books. It’s not as doomsday as you say it is. With or without Kidd, the only players likely to get markedly better as they grew older were Harris and Bass. Now it’s just Bass. The team isn’t much different (granted that might not be a good thing), but they were kinda stuck with the roster they had. It’s good enough to to be a playoff team, but probably not quite good enough to win the title.
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 1, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Give me a scenario
Give me a trade scenario that you think would be likely in, say, January, where the Mavs would deal Kidd and getting something of significant value in return.
Also, I don’t see what getting $20 million off the books really does for this team, because they are still going to be over the cap after this coming season (unless they move significantly more assets for expiring deals).
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
It's way too early to give a specific scenario
FA just started, there could be trades between now and then. But, the Mavs took a chance on Kidd, thinking he could be the final piece of the puzzle.
Why isn’t it possible for some other team to think that as well?
Are you just implying that the Mavs are the only team that is “dumb” enough to do that?
Hey
Another team may want to take Kidd on in February, thinking he’s the final piece of the puzzle, and give up a couple of draft picks and a couple of nice young players for the privilege.
If so, that’s great…the damage is minimized…
However, I do think it is relatively unlikely that 1) the Mavs are going to deal Kidd, unless, at the trade deadline, it appears they will not make the playoffs, and 2) that another team is going to give up significant value for him, believing that he’s the final piece.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree it is rather unlikely that they will deal him midseason
unless there’s a major injury to someone like Dirk.
However, in my above post I said “They can absolutely trade Kidd for valuable pieces if it is neccessary.”
If it is obvious they aren’t winning anything with Kidd, and he’s playing well enough that there is interest—it’s ABSOLUTELY possible that some other team could make a Mavs-like deal.
It just seems that you don’t think it’s likely just because the Mavs have already done it—and you have declared that to be a stupid, horrible, no good, terrible move.
I will agree with Adam
In that the team must have both the cap ability and the desire. One without the other will not do, which makes the list quite small.
The Mavs didn't have the cap ability
They were way over—and they did it….
I don’t see why it has to be different for the Mavs on the flip side.
Here's the thing
You are acting as if my criticism of the deal, and the points I’m making about the unlikelihood of salvaging much out of it, are somehow extreme and “out there”...that I’m being irrational and my opinions are an outlier.
That deal was criticized by numerous people when it was made. John Hollinger hated it and pointed out many of the same flaws that I did. Eddie Sefko didn’t like it, for much the same reasons. Bill Simmons ridiculed it, and ended up being spot-on.
Now, when I point out the problems inherent in assuming that, well, the deal is okay because we can deal him to a team wanting an expiring contract, you choose to dismiss this as being just part of some anti-Mavs agenda I have.
Isn’t it possible - nay, likely - that the Mavs fucked up with this, and now find themselves in a bad situation where it is going to be real, real hard to re-capture much in the way of value with Kidd?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless
They win this year, which is a possibility I think you overlook and discount pretty regularly.
I think the chance of this team...
...getting past the second round this year is remote.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, here's where I disagree with you.
I can agree it doesn’t look like a smart deal right now, and the Mavs may have fucked up.
But, what I can’t agree on, is that some other team might make the same mistake later and get the Mavs off the hook, or at least halfway off the hook.
If the Mavs could make such a horrible deal, then certainly there are teams out there that could be just as desperate. I’m just arguing that the possibility exists. It’s not like GM’s pay attention to history and learn from other team’s mistakes. There are tons of stupid GM’s out there.
Btw, using Hollinger as backup to your argument
won’t win any points with me. Just so you know. Same with Simmons. Just because they have national articles, doesn’t mean they know what they’re talking about.
I agree
specifically when Kidd played pretty damn well here in Dallas. His shooting, something that everyone tried to completely crap on, was much, much better than expected.
The failings of this team like predominantly at the feet of Josh Howard. If you think Howard is unable to be fixed, then I can understand the pessimism.
I’m unsure myself.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
What do you think the chances are...
...of the Mavs making the NBA Finals in 2008-09?
What about the Western Conference Finals?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
not extremely high due to the West being so good
but would it be any higher with Devin Harris instead of Kidd?
Of making the NBA Finals? 4%?
Of making the WC Finals? I’ll say 10%?
What were the odds of them doing it in 2006? Remember they had to win IN San Antonio and then beat Phoenix too.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
I think
it’s the “I knew it was a fuck up, you didn’t and now I’m gonna make sure that you know that I knew it was a fuck up” that’s getting on peoples nerves. The Mavs can still do something with Kidd, I don’t think he lost it last year and his level of play in the Olympics will be very telling if it was indeed Avery choking the life out of the offense, or if Kidd lost a step or two.
"Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?"
Well
I personally don’t think I am making sure that everyone knows that.
Most often, when it comes out, it is “you thought the deal sucked and hate the Mavs anyway.”
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
See this is what drives me crazy
Earlier you claimed you pointed out problems with it:
“Now, when I point out the problems inherent in assuming that, well, the deal is okay because we can deal him to a team wanting an expiring contract, you choose to dismiss this as being just part of some anti-Mavs agenda I have.”
But all you really said was: “Another team may want to take Kidd on in February, thinking he’s the final piece of the puzzle, and give up a couple of draft picks and a couple of nice young players for the privilege.
If so, that’s great…the damage is minimized…
However, I do think it is relatively unlikely that 1) the Mavs are going to deal Kidd, unless, at the trade deadline, it appears they will not make the playoffs, and 2) that another team is going to give up significant value for him, believing that he’s the final piece.”
That’s not pointing out any problems—that’s just reasserting your opinion.
A request
it’s the "I knew it was a fuck up, you didn’t and now I’m gonna make sure that you know that I knew it was a fuck up" that’s getting on peoples nerves.
Can you give me a link when I’ve done that?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
you do remember that every time the Mavs lost you had posts like this:
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/3/7/124847/5895
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/3/31/387998/mavs-in-trouble
"Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?"
Do you have a link?
Because I don’t see it. I assume you are talking about your “ahem” post, but there’s no link there.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t see how you are gleaning that from me saying that the Jason Kidd trade = Erik Bedard trade.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
“it’s the “I knew it was a fuck up, you didn’t and now I’m gonna make sure that you know that I knew it was a fuck up” that’s getting on peoples nerves.”
That’s what it seems like to me.
Just so you know, I couldn’t care less about your opinion, but it is pretty laughable when you start acting persecuted on this issue.
Well, gee
First of all, that wasn’t the point of the post, and I would have thought that was obvious.
Secondly, I’m not acting persecuted, and I think it is pretty laughable that you would suggest that.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Either way
it’s the continuation of reiterating it every chance you get when the Mavs are brought up.
"Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?"
You're not really
“pointing out problems” in dealing him. You are moreso just stating conditions that will need to take place, yet take place every season (i.e. there are always teams that want cap room, and there are always teams that have good players that are vastly overpaid).
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
What you are ignoring is...
...you almost always have to give something of value along with the expiring contract to make the deal work. The Mavs can’t give up a first round draft choice. And they have no cheap players to include in a deal to “sweeten the pot.”
I don’t think it is all that likely that a team is going to be willing to give the Mavs a quality player - particularly a quality young player - in exchange for Kidd and nothing else, just so they can get under the cap.
Hell, even the Pau Gasol fleecing, the Grizzlies got a couple of first rounders.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
1st round picks are overrated
particularly ones like the Lakers gave the Grizzlies that will end up being picks the Grizzlies will wish were 2nd round picks.
The Suns sell their 1st round picks for cash regularly. The Hornets did it this year.
Let Cuban throw $3M in with the trade – it’s evidently the equivalent of a late 1st round pick.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Except...
...Cuban could have bought a first rounder this year for $3 million, and didn’t want to.
Mario Chalmers or Chris Douglas-Roberts were on the table in the late first, and the Mavs didn’t want to spend the money.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you know?
Cuban and Nelson claim that 2nd rounders were going for 2 million plus future 2nds.
I’m sure they’re more plugged in.
Let me find the link...
Supposedly, they could have moved up and taken someone’s late 1st, and they didn’t want to spend the $3 million.
It may have been on the DMN blog.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
It was the Spurs
would’ve taken Arthur. But it is Supposedly…
"Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?"
But if it was
3 million and a 2nd, would you do that?
I can just hear the snark when the Mavs don’t have a single pick in 2 years, and CDR is rotting away at the end of the bench.
3 million by itself is way too much for a shitty-to-average player, if your only goal is to say you got a “first-rounder”.
Which is, by the way, what most of those picks turn out to be.
Really
This is the exact same line of thinking that leads to people saying that the Rangers are cheap for not giving Player X the same gigantic contract somebody else did.
It seems that you generally discredit that line of argument, which makes this odd.
Maybe they weren't as high on those players
as you are? CDR fell easily into the 2nd round. I’m damn glad Cuban didn’t waste $3M to jump up and pick him.
I forgot
they can’t judge talent. That’s why they made a horrible trade…didn’t move up in the draft. I keep forgetting the groundrules around here.
Whatever, dude
You think I’m clueless when it comes to the Mavs, that’s fine.
I don’t know what their opinions of those guys were. If they didn’t think it was worth it, that’s fine. I just said “Okay” because I was ready to drop it. You, it seems, aren’t.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Tell me this
Assuming you are running the Mavs, would you have bought a late 1st round pick for $3M and picked CDR?
Knowing what you know now, that’s probably not a smart decision if yes.
Yet, you criticize the Mavs for NOT doing it.
Then, there’s the smarmy “okay” response.
That is what annoys some of us when reading your comments about the Mavs.
I don't know if I'd have done it or not
I think, though, it is a bit disingenuous to defend giving away first rounders in the Nets trade by saying we can just go buy them because people are selling them, so we didn’t really lose anything, and then turn around and say it would have been a bad move to pay $3 million for a late first rounder to replace the one we just traded because the first rounder wasn’t worth that much.
That being said…if the Mavs hadn’t traded their pick to the Nets, but could have sold it for $3 million during the draft, would you have supported that?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, assuming
that there was no player they really wanted to give a guaranteed contract to, I would’ve supported selling the pick.
I don’t pretend to know what they’re thinking, and I generally think they’re smarter than you or me.
They obviously make mistakes, but I’m sure they were aware of the risks when they made the deal.
I agree with this
I was frustrated by the decision to not aquire a pick this season, and Cuban’s flipant statement about being able to buy picks whenver you want only made it worse.
Also, I don't think you are clueless about the Mavs
I just think you are the Josey Wales type poster for the Mavs on this blog.
it’s all doom and gloom, all the time.
Management can’t make a correct decision. They’re constantly spending money in ways they shouldn’t. Blah blah…it’s quite a schtick you have.
Okay
I just think you are the Josey Wales type poster for the Mavs on this blog.it’s all doom and gloom, all the time.
Management can’t make a correct decision. They’re constantly spending money in ways they shouldn’t. Blah blah…it’s quite a schtick you have.
Tell me what management decisions I’ve criticized unreasonably, where I’m saying they’re constantly spending money in ways they shouldn’t, that constitutes schtick.
There are two primary things I’ve been critical of:
1) The Kidd trade
2) Avery’s coaching
I think there are smaller moves that don’t make sense, like bringing in a bunch of 30-somethings that can’t play anymore to provide leadership and toughness and experience, but when you get right down to it, those two things I listed above are what I have hated.
To compare to Josey, in regards to the Mavs, is ludicrous.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It's more that you refuse to look at ANY positive
You immediately dismiss them dumping Kidd’s expiring contract because it’s “not likely.”
Granted, I can totally understand the viewpoint that this trade looks awful—but I can see avenues that the Mavs can save themselves. You, however, do not seem to think that’s very likely, so you continue to pile on.
Well
It’s more that you refuse to look at ANY positiveYou immediately dismiss them dumping Kidd’s expiring contract because it’s "not likely."
I don’t get this.
The chances of them taking Kidd’s expiring deal and turning it into anything of significant value is, I think, exceedingly slim.
I think you’d be hard pressed to find any objective observer of the NBA who thinks that the chances of that happening are anything other than slim.
And yet, because I point that out, I’m refusing to look at ANY positive?
I’m done talking about it. I only got involved in this discussion because I thought these suggestions that the Mavs are going to be able to upgrade themselves this offseason with some significant sign-and-trade is ludicrous. I’ll just wait and see what the situation is when training camp starts.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
you dismiss the possibility because of your opinion. Not because of a specific instance, or historical event, or similar situation.
It’s b/c you “think” the chances are “exceedingly slim.”
You’ve picked a stance, which is fine, but you back it up with your opinion and vague hints at things not being very “likely.”
That is very Josey-like in that he picks a stance, and beats that drum without conceeding a single point the other way.
You may look at it as the Mavs’ reality—I look at it as one possibility.
I can let it drop though, I think I’ve proved my point.
Okay
you dismiss the possibility because of your opinion. Not because of a specific instance, or historical event, or similar situation.It’s b/c you "think" the chances are "exceedingly slim."
I think the chances of the Rangers trading Frank Catalanotto for a top of the rotation caliber starting pitcher are exceedingly slim, as well.
What’s the difference between me saying that, and me saying that I think the chances of the Mavs moving Kidd for something of value are exceedingly slim?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 1, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
because
1 of those instances has NEVER happened and 1 of those happened less than 6 months ago.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
Exactly, thank you
If the Mavs did it, it’s certainly possible that someone else will.
Again, no contract in the NBA is untradeable.
don't forget
the decision not to resign Nash.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
I also take issue
with you for never giving Cuban any credit. He is one of the better owners in any sport. Even if he is over the top, you cannot argue that he has been anything short of great for the state of basketball in Dallas.
Focusing on one or two moves does that he made (or didn’t make) does not change the fact that this team is relevant right now due in large part to him and his willingness to spend money to keep them relevant.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
As a corollary
Sometimes swapping shitty contracts is valuable if you think the shitty contract you’re getting back (but actually the player in this case) will help you win a title,
That could be the Mavs, though I don’t know who fits that.
by brettgardner on Jul 1, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Damp off the books..
The day it happens will be a cause for celebration..
I’d like to see the Mavs go into total rebuild if things aren’t looking good going into the deadline next year..
Collect as much young talent, expiring contracts, and draft picks as possible.. with Terry, Howard, and Stackhouse being moved.
The Rangers blueprint basically.
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