Lone Star Ball: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: Phillies trade for OF Matt Stairs Bar-right-arrows

The official John Danks shoulda woulda coulda thread

Ranlogo_tiny by lonestarJon on

Okay... with John Danks starting against us tonight, I'm pretty certain that the LBrooks and Cluelesses of LSB will all be crawling out of the woodwork to beat their drums over the result of the White Sox trade, especially if he beats us. With that in mind, I thought I'd do them (and everyone else who is tired of this subject like me) a favor by giving them a thread all to their own, so maybe the rest site won't be overrun by people arguing the long-ago burnt out points of Danks vs. McCarthy, et al, ext.

So feel free to go for it everyone... just please keep all the arguing and griping here.

 

5 recs | Comment 111 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

Heres how this thread will look in 24 hours.

Scenario one Danks gets knocked around- “OH MAN I KNEW WE SHOULD HAVE TRADED HIM WOO! I LOVE THE RANGERS!”

Scenario two Danks shuts us down- “OH FUCK MY LIFE AND THE RANGERS, THEY SUCK FOR TRADING HIM WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?”

How's Dshep's ass taste?

by iorange555 on Jul 12, 2008 5:56 AM CDT   0 recs

i dont care if he

gives up 10 in the first inning and his left arm turns into a Babyarm right there on the mound, he has already given the Sox more than we will ever get from BMac

by blueballlefty on Jul 12, 2008 12:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you

don’t know that.

Warner Madrigal is the Rangers most underrated prospect by a longshot; he SHOULD be be closing games within 3 years IMO. Matt Harrison is underrated too.

by dstar442005 on Jul 12, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why don’t you make this the Official Feliz Start #2 thread?

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Jul 12, 2008 6:09 AM CDT   0 recs

isnt that tomorrow?

and on tv!

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is

by DSheppard on Jul 12, 2008 7:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah, guess thats right

i know it was supposed to be sunday at some point… frisco’s site had it as such. guess things got moved around. maybe the ballard thing, I dont know.

in any case thats disappointing. i was really looking forward to that game on tv.

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is

by DSheppard on Jul 12, 2008 8:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

crap

Everytime Frisco is on TV, Ballard pitches…

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up   1 recs

I don't get it

Are we just supposed to ignore the fact that the Rangers made a mistake? Is the only purpose of sites like these to blow sunshine up Jon Daniels’ ass?

Let me have a diablo sandwich, a Dr. Pepper, and make it fast I'm in a God damned hurry!

by DaheelzCM on Jul 12, 2008 7:19 AM CDT   0 recs

no

i think most people are just tired of hearing the same old arguments over and over.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 8:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Disagree

people still come on here and say no it wasn’t a bad trade, B-Mac has been hurt…it’s too early to judge. Are you kidding me? No way B-Mac could throw up an ERA + of 171 like Danks has done so far this year. Was it a mistake? Hell yes it was. Danks is turning into the pitcher all of us hoped he would, but unfortunately he’s doing it in a White Sox uniform. The fact that our rotation is so bad only makes it hurt more.

BUT, what can you do? It happened. Should JD be fired? No way. It was a bad trade, a mistake, but he has improved significantly as a GM and this has been manifested in the FA dept (Bradley, Gagne, Madrigal), the draft dept, and most importantly the trade dept (Lofton, Gagne, Tex).

Should we be able to talk about it? Of course though. Until the team possesses a quality rotation, players such as Danks, Galaragga, and Volquez will always be on our minds. Once we get a great rotation, people won’t talk about the guys we let get away anymore…

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 9:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

it was a bad trade

in hindsight. at the time, i didn’t like it but didnt think it was bad. now as it turns out it’s been a pretty awful trade, danks turned into everything anyone ever hoped he’d be and bmac has not.

could anyone predict these injuries? probably not. Would danks have developed like this being in texas the past 2 seasons ? who knows.

Personally i’m just tired of hearing about it. It’s fine to have a normal conversation about it, but when some of these people here use it as their platform for rants it just gets old.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 9:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Danks Trade

I didn’t care for the trade at the time and I still don’t, however from what I’ve read it seems like we would not be getting the Danks that the White Sox (cutter) have if we would’ve kept him. That said who knows if he would’ve found some other way to adjust and step up his major league game?

by rcreative on Jul 12, 2008 9:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So you are saying he wouldn't be the same SP

that he is now if he were in Arlington because our coaches are incompetent?

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 9:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lame

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So he wouldn't be that good

because we don’t have Mark Buerhle on our team? That’s ridiculous.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 10:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He added an entirely new pitch

that’s bound to change performance. Without it, he wouldn’t have the ground ball ratio he has sported this year.

are you trying to use stats around here? what the fuck do you think this is? - MM

by colintj on Jul 12, 2008 1:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Don Cooper, CHW pitching coach, taught it to him

as he did with Loaiza and a couple other pitchers over the years. It’s a specialty of his.

are you trying to use stats around here? what the fuck do you think this is? - MM

by colintj on Jul 12, 2008 1:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

honestly

i don’t think he’d be having the same success

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 9:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

huh? based on what?

the ability that we can’t develop pitchers….oh, wait…

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i’ve wondered about the current pitching coaches abilities to develop, what really pushed me over the edge was learning that they changed volquez’s arm slot, etc and cincy changed it back and he’s flourishing

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 12:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what?

you do know that Volquez dominated at every stop last year before he was traded?

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 12:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

volquez did well in the minors after he got his head around being sent back down, but have you read some of the things he said about that? the rules he was given? the whole thing left a bad taste in his mouth.

and the success he DID have was in the minors, he did well when called up but not like he’s doing now.

we’ll agree to disagree

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 12:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

also, what's this 'etc..' business?

And do you really think Cincy traded an up and coming CF star for a guy they knew needed to have his mechanics changed?

By the way, all this arm angle stuff is probably more fluff than anything else…

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 12:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no

they saw that if they tweaked his mechanics, his ceiling rose.

Warner Madrigal is the Rangers most underrated prospect by a longshot; he SHOULD be be closing games within 3 years IMO. Matt Harrison is underrated too.

by dstar442005 on Jul 12, 2008 12:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

whatever...

a different environment was probably something volquez needed.
and i think the reds viewed hamilton as a wildcard still, questions about his durability.

you can honestly tell me you think volquez would do exactly what he’s doing with cincy if he was with the rangers?

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah,

why not? This is stupid to think otherwise. Same with Young, Danks, and Edinson. Why would they not do the same here as with their current team?

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 12:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why would they?

you wanted my reasons, so what are you reasons for believing they would have exactly the same success with texas?
you ask everyone else to explain themselves so explain why you think this.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 12:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well

have you seen them pitch? i don’t think just because of the location of where they are pitching would make them suck automatically. Unless you think all these guys have very weak minds that it gets into their heads that they are pitching in Texas?

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 1:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i think

in volquez’s case he needed to be somewhere else. from what he had said afterward he wasn’t exactly thrilled with his treatment in texas, so yes i feel he had a greater chance of success elsewhere

has nothing to do with weak minds or just because it’s texas he will suck.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 1:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

pitching coaches and ability to teach matters

it has nothing to do with geographic location and everything to do with who is on your staff. coop has a long track record of success and he’s widely respected in the league.

are you trying to use stats around here? what the fuck do you think this is? - MM

by colintj on Jul 12, 2008 1:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think Danks would be this far along had he remained Rangers property

But not necessarily because of our coaches being inferior or such. I think it has more to do with the fact that he would not have gotten the amount of playing time Chicago was willing to give him had he remained here.

I I remember correctly, when Danks was traded he was not considered ready for the majors by the Rangers (my understanding is, that was the entire reason for making the trade in the first place). So had we kept him, one would assume that it’s very unlikely he would have been allowed to take his lumps in the rotation last year, or that he would have started the season in the rotation at all. At best, he probably would have been a second-half callup, or a replacement for an injured starter at some point midseason. And had he struggled like he did last year, he likely would have been yo-yoed back and forth to AAA by the Rangers, rather than being allowed to pitch and adapt to the majors the way he has in Chicago. I don’t know how far along he’d developmentally right now had he remained Ranger property, but I’m willing to wager that he would not be in the top 5 in ERA in the american league right now.

by BlackHawk125 on Jul 12, 2008 10:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think it was the entire reason

Daniels has said they believed McCarthy would be a better pitcher, long-term, than Danks.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 12, 2008 10:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kenny Williams thought differently

and he was right.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 10:13 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kenny Williams guessed right

sometimes you get lucky. If both players were healthy, that most likely would not be the case..

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 10:52 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Guessed right?

Ehh. To think that McCarthy could have an ERA+ of 171 if even healthy is a little too optimistic, don’t you think?

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 10:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why?

He was considered the better prospect, he was a freaking beast in ST, soo, why not?

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 11:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh,

to think that any pitcher will have an ERA+ of 171 if a little optimistic. Although I’m sure you, in your wisdom, predicted that Danks would do so this year.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Jul 12, 2008 1:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No not really

I wasn’t that high on Danks. In fact I was hoping we would package him in a deal for a veteran SP.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 4:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I did think a large part of it was that the Rangers felt McCarthy

was more advanced in his development. Either way, the Rangers appear to have been wrong.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 10:14 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

thats what i remember

they thought bmac was further along and to paraphrase , more major league ready.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 10:18 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem isn't McCarthy

It was how the Rangers self-scouted Danks. The Rangers didn’t know what they had, and while BMac was kind of an obvious player to scout, I think you could look at Danks and get confused about what type of lefty you had there. Some turn into Buerhle, others into John Koronka. And if our scouts were saying that Danks was going to be a short-term guy, then they probably were thinking he’d go the Koronka route. Instead, the Ranger scouts should probably have read Mike Hindman a little more…

I think Kenny Williams forced the Rangers to make a move with Danks before they were ready to, and JD took the bait. Good job by KW, poor job by the Rangers scouts. But I don’t know if any other GM would have done differently – the Sox were trading very high on BMac, and asking for a prospect whose potential was an enigma.

by JBImaknee on Jul 12, 2008 10:56 AM CDT to parent up   1 recs

I don't think...

....the Rangers thought Danks was going to suck.

I think they felt he’d be a good pitcher. Just not as good as McCarthy.

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 12, 2008 10:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

I don’t know if you ever make a trade of a guy who you are confident can be a #3 for a guy who you think could be a #2. You’re supposed to know your own guys more than other team’s guys, so when acquiring some other player, you know there is some risk associated with him. That risk around BMac discounts his value somewhat, so it means the Rangers had to have thought there was a large amount of risk associated with Danks to make the deal. And from the other direction Kenny Williams had to have thought that Danks was a safer bet than McCarthy (or just maybe the sister rumors were true and he got lucky…)

It isn’t an argument about ceiling as much as one about risk assessment. Maybe teams don’t do that, but they should…

by JBImaknee on Jul 12, 2008 11:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think the Rangers thought Danks was going to suck either

but I think that was an amazing point by JBlmaknee….in my opinion at least at the time it seemed like Danks was somewhat of an ambiguous prospect as we really weren’t sure what he was going to turn into, while McCarthy was a more established prospect who had #3 SP written all over him. Kenny Williams took advantage of the uncertainty of John Danks and ended up winning the deal because of that.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not sure I agree with that

My feeling at the time based on what was said by the Rangers front office was that they felt Danks would be just as good as McCarthy, however he wouldn’t be ready as soon.

I remember thinking we were forcing this trade to try to appease Tex and the other vets on the team (FOTF) who were at the time wanting to “win now”.

I hope (and feel) that JD learned his lesson with this move.

by rcreative on Jul 12, 2008 11:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree.

It and the Agon, CY trade were win now moves. Have the rangers ever had a win now move that actually worked? The two mentioned above, Baines, Mazzeli, Lee (although no biggie since we got the picks), etc. Those are the ones that jump to mind. Add your own!

by bdavison94 on Jul 12, 2008 4:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what? no

wrong wrong wrong. Where the hell you getting this stuff? And you’re just being plain stupid about that MH comment.

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 11:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think he's absolutely correct about

the Danks vs. McCarthy comparison.

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Jul 12, 2008 11:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hindman

Mike Hindman was saying Danks was going to do exactly this for years. You may or may not like him, but he was dead on accurate about the guy. Why was my comment stupid?

by JBImaknee on Jul 12, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because he says that about all the guys

he’s emotionally attached to.

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Doesn't make his statement wrong.

They should have listened to MH in this case. Just not in every case.

by bdavison94 on Jul 12, 2008 4:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

very good take

KW schooled JD on this one, I hope he has learned his lesson and moved on.

KW doesn’t get enough credit and I think he is pretty damn good. Look at the ChiSox staff and you see that JD isn’t the only GM to fall prey to KW.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 11:37 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't trade away an ace pitcher

for somebody else’s long reliever?

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 1:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

do you think at the time bmac was considered a long reliever and danks was considered an ace?

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay

Do you think that, at the time the deal was made, a reasonable person would believe that the Rangers were trading an ace for a long reliever?

For that matter, do you think right now that Danks is an ace (in the sense that, say, Brandon Webb or Johan Santana are aces, as compared to being a guy who has a very low ERA after half a season but will be a #3/#4 guy going forward), and that McCarthy is relegated to long-relieverness?

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 12, 2008 1:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Danks would be at the top of our rotation

for at least the next five years and I think that McCarthy will never make a significant big league contribution.

I also speculate that JD would say, off-the-record, that he got fleeced in the deal.

I think McCarthy has marginal stuff, a frame and delivery that lends itself to injury, and according to some, questionable make-up. I didn’t watch him extensively with the ChiSox, so I don’t know if the stuff and delivery might have been better with them than what we saw. Regardless, he got to Texas and was underwhelming in every aspect from the get go.

On the other hand, Danks had very good talent and a willingness to be coached and work on weaknesses until they became strengths. He fit the profile of an ideal pitcher for our ballpark. He was, and is, durable.

I don’t see why people that are mostly objective otherwise, have such a hard time saying that this trade looks like an abysmal failure, and that falls at the feet of the guy who pulled the trigger, JD.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 5:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hindsight is always 20/20

it’s easy to say NOW that danks would be the ace of our staff, but when the trade happened did you think he would be? I know a lot of people viewed hurley as having more potential to be a #1 or #2.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 5:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

it doesn't matter how I viewed Danks

I’m not the GM of the franchise, I don’t have dozens of people reporting to me whose jobs it is to give me detailed scouting reports.

I mean, if JD isn’t allowed to take criticism of the results of this trade because it didn’t turn out the way some experts expected, how can he then get praised for trading for players like David Murphy that have turned out better than expected.

If the GM trades guys that don’t pan out for guys that exceed expectations he is a genius, right? Well if trades work out the other way, you can’t really say that it was just bad luck.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 5:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

who said he cant take criticism ? i said this has turned into a bad trade.
you seem to be going past criticism here and saying jd should be able to see the future.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 5:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A couple of questions

How did a guy dominate the minor leagues and get raves from scouts if he only had “marginal stuff”?

On what do you base your statement that his delivery lends itself to injury?

And who has said he has “questionable make-up”?

by Adam J. Morris on Jul 12, 2008 5:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wow

"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007

by Longhorn on Jul 12, 2008 1:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Off base

"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants

by Chase Irwin on Jul 12, 2008 5:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and if i remember right, many scouts had McCarthy viewed much higher than danks

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 10:19 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

many scouts are often wrong

but in this case, those scouts that were wrong worked for the Rangers and the scouts that were right worked for the Southsiders.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Jul 12, 2008 11:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well...

what i read by scouts outside the organization and by people at ba/bp, etc.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jul 12, 2008 12:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The way I remember it.....

The reaction in the press (scouts as sources) was that the Sox won the deal. Most of us couldn’t believe that the press didn’t give the rangers the upper hand since B-Mac had been so much higher rated as he progressed in the minors than Danks. A lot of us believed it was just people assuming JD couldn’t “win” a trade against KW. Turns out they have been right so far.

by bdavison94 on Jul 12, 2008 4:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes

That’s just life though. If he would’ve stayed in our system he’d have different experience and thus be a different pitchers. One of the big changes we’ve seen him in this year is the cutter which he has credited to Buhrele. I can’t 100% say he wouldn’t have developed that here, but chances are probably not.

All that said I still think he would have been a good pitcher for us, we’ll just never know how good exactly.

by rcreative on Jul 12, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs