Monday night linkaliciousness
You know whose name I've seen mentioned repeatedly, vis-a-vis the Futures Game?
Taylor Teagarden. He really seemed to turn some heads.
Keith Law really liked him. So did Joe Sheehan. So did Kevin Goldstein.
Jason Grey really likes Teagarden, saying he's the second-best offensive catching prospect in the minors (behind only Matt Weiters), and somehow I missed this writeup Grey did of Teagarden in late June, which also includes some discussion of Elvis Andrus.
Everyone who watches Teagarden raves about his defensive ability, and he seems like someone who is going to have a major league career so long as he stays healthy. The question really seems to be, is he going to hit well enough to be a starter, or will he be limited to a backup role? Grey, for one, loves the bat, and the upside comparison for him offensively is Mickey Tettleton, which, when combined with Teagarden's glove, would probably make him one of the best catchers in the game. There are the consistent questions about whether he'll make contact enough, though, to keep his average above .220.
And of course, there's the question of whether he'll stay here or ply his trade with another team. Given the need the BoSox have for a young catcher, and the premium they place on a catcher's defensive ability, I have to wonder if Teagarden might not end up there.
Over at Slate, there is a somewhat meta article about how Derek Jeter's defense has become the defining debate amongst the stathead v. traditionalist crowd. For Ranger fans, of course, substitute Michael Young for Jeter...
Astros g.m. Ed Wade thinks what the Rangers did last season was dumb:
"Fans have every right when they turn on the TV or come to Minute Maid to expect to see the team win that night," Wade said. "And when they pick up the paper in the morning they have every right to expect to see their team in first place."
Problem is, Wade won't be able to go out before the trade deadline and add two quality starting pitchers and a middle reliever. The Astros don't have the prospects to give.
So, considering that it will take a miraculous run to keep this from being the lost season that it is destined to be, the bigger questions are about the team's future. A standard analysis of the data — last-place team, weak farm system, — could lead one to conclude this team needs to be a seller in the two weeks the Buy/Sell Players Market remains open.
Not this team, however.
Neither a buyer nor a seller be, should be its motto.
The team can't afford many purchases, and even with a 2008 surrender, a fire sale approach makes little sense.
It would be nice to help rebuild a farm system that is in need of hot prospects by moving a few players, but trading a couple of dependable stars (Oswalt, Lance Berkman, Carlos Lee, Miguel Tejada, Jose Valverde) or a probable future star (Hunter Pence) for youngsters who might not come through in a few years is the slow route to decency.
"I don't think fire sales work," Wade said. "I think a lot of that works for cosmetic purposes, but it's sort of a 'panic button' approach that leads you to a course of mediocrity."
"A course of mediocrity," of course, is what the Astros currently appear to be on, and the refusal to bite the bullet, strip down and rebuild is reminiscent of where the Rangers were in the early-aughts, with a bad farm system, an aging, mediocre team, and an owner who felt that rebuilding was a four letter word.
The Prospect Corner looks at Hank the Bank, Chris the Beasticon, and likely A.L. ROY Evan Longoria in weighing what the Rangers should do when Blalock is ready to come off the d.l. The short answer...not send down Davis...
Did you know that Mark Grudzielanik has 2000 hits? He's been a regular for a long time, so I guess it shouldn't be that surprising, but still, I'd never have guessed. He's 23rd among active players in hits, according to B-R, although they include Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Shawn Green, and Mike Piazza as active players, so really, he's in the top 20.
John Barten has the latest THT Awards up, with former Ranger Robinson Tejeda getting a mention because of a weird statistical oddity that showed up in his line last week...
If you missed it, FJM is displeased over Ian Kinsler bunting in extra innings.
And this is unrelated, but I just now, as I was typing this post, got a spam email which comes from this person/name/whatever: Cash-Transferz id_30 [dirtbag@import123.com].
It offers me the chance to make money with my bank account, and something involving cash transfers.
I was really interested in this, until I saw that the person sending me the email had an email address that started with "dirtbag". I don't think I can trust someone with that sort of email address.
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Comments
No mention...
of the Hambomb display tonight?
by ghostofErikThompson on
Jul 14, 2008 10:47 PM CDT
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Nothing really to say, I guess
I only saw part of it. It was impressive.
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 14, 2008 11:18 PM CDT
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there will be plenty of stories to link too tomorrow, thats for sure
too many.

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 12:00 AM CDT
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One of the ESPN
Talking heads at the table said something about the NY enthusiasm for Hamilton, chanting his name in unison, etc Then something about “and he’ll probably be a Yankee in about 4 years”.
Who was it who said that (I confess I didn’t pay much attention to commentary, but that got my attention)
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Jul 15, 2008 12:10 AM CDT
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I think it was Kruk
"Would you mind walking a time or two so I could drive in some runs"? Milton Bradley
by boomer1 on
Jul 15, 2008 12:14 AM CDT
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Kruk
and it drew a mighty F-Bomb in my household.
by SteveP on
Jul 15, 2008 12:16 AM CDT
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i wouldnt worry too much about it
1) i have bets texas signs him for like 6-7 years
2) i cant possibly imagine hamilton with all his past issues being a good fit in NY.
3) i see hamilton as a guy who is counting his blessing and sees texas’s faith in him as something that was meant to be and not to be just overlooked for a buck.
4) i see us as a better chance to win over the time we are talking about.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 15, 2008 12:49 AM CDT
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if hamilton got hurt or was unproductive in NY
i dont want to think about what might go on in the papers..
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 1:12 AM CDT
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watch out for those Yankees...
they’ll do just about anything to get their man. I hope Big Daddy heard that.. I bet he shit his pants thinking about how much $$$ it’s going to take to keep him in Texas. Steinbrenner will open the vault for Josh..no doubt about it.
Milly I have no choice but to nickname you "The Laborer".
Every time I see you on the mound you're laboring through the inning.
You sure as hell don't labor when you hear Dunkin Donuts is closing in
15 minutes, sat there with a chocolate eclair with 5 minutes to spare.
by LAMuscleFag on
Jul 15, 2008 8:42 AM CDT
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Tea
Actually I thought the question really was whether he was healthy, moreso than whether he’ll hit.
His OBP is more than enough to cover for his shoddy AVG. His defensive game is ready. All he needs is to prove he’s healthy.
Let Boston come and get him…
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Jul 14, 2008 10:49 PM CDT
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Buchholz?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 14, 2008 10:51 PM CDT
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Dude
it was a joke….man I guess sarcasm really is hard to follow on the series of tubes.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 14, 2008 10:56 PM CDT
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75% of Buchholz references are made in jest
No, I didn’t catch it.
by LiamP on
Jul 14, 2008 11:00 PM CDT
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obp and average
obp is nice and all but its not enough to make up for a guy hitting in the .220s or whatnot. im already sick of salty taking fastballs right down the middle to work the count for a walk.
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 10:59 PM CDT
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Let's say...
...he hits .225/.325/.425, with GG caliber defense.
You wouldn’t find that acceptable for your starting catcher?
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 14, 2008 11:17 PM CDT
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no
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 14, 2008 11:23 PM CDT
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Why not?
All major league catchers, this year, are hitting an aggregate .258/.327/.390.
Performing like I said above would make him a comfortably above-average major league starting catcher.
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 14, 2008 11:31 PM CDT
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do you think .225/.325/.425 is enough to win the rangers starting C position?
out of the 4 catchers we have right now.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 15, 2008 12:04 AM CDT
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If there's GG caliber defense attached:
Abso-fucking-lutely
by philkid3 on
Jul 15, 2008 12:11 AM CDT
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id take
a .850 ops and half ass defense over a .750 ops and Teagarden’s defense
by kumizi on
Jul 15, 2008 12:15 AM CDT
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I wouldn't take an .850 below average catcher.
Over a .750 elite catcher.
Which would be answering AJM’s question.
by philkid3 on
Jul 15, 2008 12:15 AM CDT
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i probably wouldnt
100 points is a lot to make up on defense
by kumizi on
Jul 15, 2008 12:18 AM CDT
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after watching these catchers this year
i dont see any of them long term as below average catchers. max and salty included.
and if we were satisfied with those numbers isnt laird a better option? he’s an above average catcher and an .800 ops this year.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 15, 2008 12:20 AM CDT
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meh
there is a difference between acceptable and being something to get excited about. If you told me he was going to hit .225, Id take my chances with one of the 3 other catchers.
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 11:27 PM CDT
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So...
If he hit .275/.325/.425, would that be better?
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 14, 2008 11:31 PM CDT
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not sure exactly what numbers you want me to agree too but
my point is that im not going to get excited about a guy that is hitting .238 in AAA
defense at the catcher position is a lot more than throwing out basestealers.
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 11:41 PM CDT
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Okay
1) I’m trying to figure out what you would consider an acceptable level of offensive performance from a catcher
2) I don’t see what this statement:
defense at the catcher position is a lot more than throwing out basestealers.
Has to do with Teagarden.
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 14, 2008 11:50 PM CDT
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Yeah
His strengths go well beyond throwing out runners. He is an all around defender.
by Brett Perryman on
Jul 14, 2008 11:53 PM CDT
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well
1) given their track records, i would consider what max ram or satly would put out to be more acceptable and valuable than what teagarden is likely to produce at the major league level. would you not agree with this?
2) you said gold glove defense. guys like kendall and varitek have historically never been great at throwing guys out or winning gold gloves but many baseball people consider them more valuable catchers than a guy like pudge or laird (for whatever thats worth)
3) how can you pencil him in for a .750 OPS when he has gotten consistenly worse the last couple of years as he has progressed through the minor leagues?
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 11:55 PM CDT
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Your comments on this thread
are simply amazing. None of what you say above bears any scrutiny.
1. Right now Salty’s production is not more valuable than Laird’s or what Teagarden is capable of. He’s not hitting and his defense is questionable. Max can hit, but we really don’t know much about his defense other than he can block the plate.
2. There is more to defense than throwing out baserunners, yes, indeed. He is known as a catcher who frames pitches well and a good gamecaller. Pitchers love throwing to him. There is no part of his defense that is questionable.
3. In 4 years in the minors he has an aggregate .914 OPS. Plate discipline is one of the strongest indicators of success in the major leagues and he has that in spades.
OBP and SLG are about 1,000 times more important than batting average. You seemed to completely miss the point of Adam’s posts above and the numbers he used. If he puts up those numbers - yes, even with a .225 batting average - he would be an average or slightly above average catcher with the bat, and he would be a top catcher defensively.
By focusing solely on batting average you accomplish nothing but highlighting your ignorance.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 15, 2008 12:36 AM CDT
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Yeah look at Ryan Howard's Line
.234/.324/.508
I wouldn’t be complaing about his batting average, or a catcher’s .220 average if he’s adding something like GG defense.
If you have a player that adds something extra, be it extreme power like Howard, or GG defense like Teagarden….batting average is really one of the last things you worry about.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 15, 2008 7:49 AM CDT
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lets say this
rank salty, teagarden, and ramirez
would you not say he is clearly #3 among that group?
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 11:57 PM CDT
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and no
I probably wouldnt find it acceptable. Walks and slugging are great but getting hits in key situations is also important.
right now, i look at him as a backup catcher or platoon at best until he can get his average up in AAA.
by kumizi on
Jul 14, 2008 11:31 PM CDT
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Walks in key situations
are no good?
by Brett Perryman on
Jul 14, 2008 11:53 PM CDT
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if he really GG caliber defense?
i really havnt read enough real scouting reports on him. obviously I know hes good defensively, but is it a sure thing that hes just THAT good?
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 14, 2008 11:54 PM CDT
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It is virtually unanimous among the cognoscenti
Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love .
by Brian Thomas on
Jul 15, 2008 2:44 PM CDT
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health is my biggest concern with that kid
i wish it was a certainty, to me he holds the biggest risk out of the C prospects just b/c of health.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 14, 2008 11:04 PM CDT
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Well tonight
Thank God it’s them instead of you.
by brettgardner on
Jul 14, 2008 10:50 PM CDT
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Astros
Mediocrity would be such an improvement over where they are now….
They clearly need to tear it done and start over. Of course, Uncle Drayton would never allow it and, even if he did, Berkman, Lee and Roy O all have full no-trade clauses and there’s good reason to believe that none of them would consent to being traded.
by Darrell McKown on
Jul 14, 2008 10:53 PM CDT
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that little astros article made me praise god (or allah) that im not a stinkin astros fans
ive been on that treadmill of mediocrity as a fan for a long time, and the last couple season have finally got me thinking our org. actually has a clue. funny enough, last season’s selloff finally gave me hope this club knew it was doing.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 14, 2008 11:08 PM CDT
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no Hamilton love?!?!?!
Warner Madrigal is the Rangers most underrated prospect by a longshot; he SHOULD be be closing games within 3 years IMO. Matt Harrison is underrated too.
by dstar442005 on
Jul 14, 2008 11:08 PM CDT
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ESPN front page on Favre
Brett Favre told Fox News on Monday that he is “guilty of retiring early.” His first public interview since asking for his release also makes it clear he’s fine with Green Bay moving on without him. But he calls his situation “rediculous.”
Josh Hamilton is better than you.
by Longhorn on
Jul 14, 2008 11:49 PM CDT
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sportscenter had a long story on hamilton's past
obviously we’ve all heard it, but there is various video and pics that obviously you cant see in newspapers if anyone wants to try to catch it.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 14, 2008 11:57 PM CDT
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rick reilly sure made sure every1 (just for you dirkdiggler) knew he was a former heroin and crack addict
im pretty sure he said that like 3 or 4 times and every time i thought to myself, i know the kids problems but does he have to go about describing it in that much detail
i was ready for him to bust out a half baked moment:
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 15, 2008 12:13 AM CDT
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its the last time that guy appears in an espn telecast of a semi-major event
thats for sure. he said about 3 things espn wishes they could take back.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 12:15 AM CDT
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heroin
I didn’t know he did heroin. Thought it was mostly booze and crack.
by shroomer on
Jul 15, 2008 12:27 AM CDT
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yeah i still dont think that part was right.
never read anything about junk, and ive seen and known ppl on junk and all i can say is, i believe a cokehead can come back and be productive. ive never felt that way about a heroin addict.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on
Jul 15, 2008 12:42 AM CDT
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ha nice 1
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 15, 2008 7:52 AM CDT
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and btw, he was one scary lookin guy in one of the pics from his.. darker years.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 12:13 AM CDT
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Not as scary-looking as Ed Wade.
He looks like a dessicated re-animated corpse-puppet.
by Rangerchick on
Jul 15, 2008 1:14 AM CDT
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AJM Dirtbag Email
Definitely not a subtle, smooth 419 attempt! In case anyone cares, there is a new link address for federal reporting such phishing and fraud stuff
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Jul 15, 2008 12:17 AM CDT
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Hello from OverTheMonster
It seems like Boston and the Rangers almost can’t avoid swapping some pitching for some catching. It’s just too good a fit.
So, with that in mind, what would you consider a decent return for Max Ramirez or Taylor Teagarden?
I would consider a Michael Bowden for Max Ramirez deal, but given that Ramirez is already up with the big club, would you? Bowden’s been particularly excellent this year… in AA.
Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.
by britsoxfan on
Jul 15, 2008 4:21 AM CDT
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Sounds about right honestly
Bowden is the kind of semi-close arm they need to get in return for one of their catchers, and if its maxram that goes, that sounds about right.
They may view maxram as the best trade option to avoid trading salty at a lowpoint in his value, and instead go with the guy thats at a highpoint.
Additionally, if the team decides they will try to commit to milton bradley long term, it eliminates the DH possibility that MaxRam would be considered for.
MaxRam started off slow in the mlb, but hes turned it on lately.
The Boston/Texas pitcher/catcher swap is the most obvious trade there could be.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 5:17 AM CDT
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Thanks for the response.
Yes, it seemed fair enough to me and like all balanced trades, there’s a bit of pain on each side.
We’ll shake on it, if you sling in Engel Beltre too…
Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.
by britsoxfan on
Jul 15, 2008 6:02 AM CDT
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settle for drew meyer?
/inside rangers joke
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 15, 2008 6:34 AM CDT
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Not sure...
MaxRam is the kind of strong defensive minded catcher the BoSox would want.
TT woud make more sense to me (as far as who the BoSox would go after). I think either of those guys for Bowden would be a good move for the Rangers. Not sure I could see Boston doing that though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on
Jul 15, 2008 5:51 PM CDT
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I can't imagine
bumping Davis for Blalock. Even if you have to give him away at firesale prices, its probably better than sending down Davis.
Also, I doubt playing Blalock at 3B is even an option. I suspect one of the reasons he is talking abou the move is his throwing arm is shot.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on
Jul 15, 2008 8:44 AM CDT
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I don't get it
How can he be the second-best offensive catching prospect in the minors and at the same time his biggest question really seems to be, is he going to hit well enough to be a starter, or will he be limited to a backup role?
Is that possible or are there just no good offensive catchers in the all of the minors right now?
by cgolden on
Jul 15, 2008 9:07 AM CDT
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Because most catchers
don’t hit for shit. The ones that do usually have major questions about their defense and often don’t stick at catcher.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 15, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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I know I'll get blasted for this by the traditionalists who still daydream of Pudge and sigh
But I think that in the Ballpark in Arlington, the arguement of having an elite defender who isn’t that impressive with the bat is overrated. Your home park can dictate a lot about how you build your team, and ours dictates that we will always need a kick-ass offense. Some will no doubt argue that young pitchers need stout defense from their catcher to succeed, but I disagree. Eric Hurley has done just fine working with Salty and Max, and the bottom line for anyone who pitches in this ballpark is theyre going to give up some runs sooner or later, no matter who is catching. For that reason it’s always going to be key to maintain an offense with a 1-9 that can make those runs up in a jiffy – and therefore an elite offensive catcher is more valuable to us than an elite defender.
We have two guys who purportedly have the abilty to provide that extra offensive kick in Max and Salty, and it seems they’re making the strides necessary to become adequate defenders right now (well, Salty is anyway) – so gold glove defense or no, I still think their presence makes Teagarden a third wheel in the future catching plans right now. It’s still too early to count him out, but unless he starts hitting better (or both Max and Salty don’t hit next year), In my opinion, I don’t see how we could justify starting him over the other two no matter how good he is defensively.
"My keyboard is a Yankees fan" - Whipsmart
by lonestarJon on
Jul 15, 2008 9:44 AM CDT
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but right now
Teagarden is outhitting Salty. I agree the Rangers need a strong offense, but they do not need an .850 OPS at every position. They can certainly carry a catcher with “only” a .750-775 OPS, especially if he is helping to prevent runs with his plate blocking, pitch framing, runner throwing out awesomeness.
To win you must have more runs scored than allowed. Anything you do on either side of that leger is helpful. The Rangers have long had to do it by scoring runs in bunches. Teagarden helps on both ends of the equation. Just imagine how bad this pitching staff would be if the outfield defense wasn’t so good, for example…
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 15, 2008 12:18 PM CDT
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I don't think the park...
...has anything to do with the Rangers needing a better or worse offense than any other team.
by Adam J. Morris on
Jul 15, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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I disagree
if the Rangers rolled an A’s-like lineup out there every night they’d get killed.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 15, 2008 2:10 PM CDT
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Because
a lineup built to take advantage of that ballpark can overcame the crappyness of a stadium. We’re a heavy lefty lineup with lots of power. That works well in this ballpark.
It ALSO helps overcome the crappy pitching.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Jul 15, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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Catcher
I think having a strong catcher is particularly important for a team with traditionally poor pitching, especially when you are trying to develop young pitching. The last thing that any pitcher in Arlington needs is to worry about the guy on first base stealing on you. Even if basestealing itself isn’t that big a deal, the guy doing a dance 60 feed behind you is enough to distract you.
In the case of the Padres, where pitching dominates the park, letting a guy run from first to second doesn’t matter, since even singles are hard to come by for some reason.
by JBImaknee on
Jul 15, 2008 2:03 PM CDT
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Calling Bigsteve
Where you at, buddy?
If Teagarden was so highly thought of I think he would have more than 3 votes right here.
You don’t have to be a dick when plenty of others disagree with you either.
Yeah, you’re a fucking dumbass.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 15, 2008 8:53 PM CDT
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