The Phillies just got Joe Blanton
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 5:49 PM CDT
128 comments
It's being reported on ESPN right now. The As are apparently getting three minor leaguers in return. So I guess Beane was not as sold on this team's contention chances as he said in interviews. This certainly can't hurt the As much, though,with Blanton not having a great year.
In return, the Athletics get:
2B Adrian Cardenas
P Josh Outman
OF Mathew Spencer
Baseball Prospectus ranks Cardenas, 20, as the third best prospect in the Athletics organization and a three star prospect. Kevin Goldstein projects him, in a perfect world, as Ray Durham without the speed, and had this to say:
The Good: Cardenas has good bat speed and outstanding hand-eye coordination, using his strong wrists to whip the bat through the hitting zone, leading to consistent hard contact with gap power to all fields. He has a good approach and solid pitch recognition, and gets high grades for his makeup. He shows decent speed once he gets underway.
The Bad: Drafted as a shortstop with the knowledge that he'd have to move, Cardenas continued to struggle with the glove on the right side of the infield in 2007, and need to improve his reads off the bat and his work around the bag. He's a little on the smallish side, and doesn't project for more than average power.
Outman, 23, is ranked as their fourth best prospect, also three stars, and is projected in a perfect world by Goldstein to be a solid middle-rotation guy.
The Good: Outman has excellent velocity for a southpaw, sitting at 91-93 mph with his fastball, and touching 95. His secondary stuff is solid, as he gets decent two-plane break on his slurvy breaking ball and has a deceptive changeup. His unique delivery makes his pitches difficult to pick up out of his hand, and scouts like his competitive fire.
The Bad: Outman's mechanics come with good and bad. While the combination of his arm angle and release point make it difficult to throw anything straight, he also has problems throwing strikes with any consistency. He tends to work high in the strike zone, and Double-A hitters made him pay the price.
Gotta say, for Blanton, that's not bad return.
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Blanton
really wasn’t that good this year, what do you think the difference is between Blanton and Gio Gonzalez is this year?
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 5:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh
and if the Phillies lose Adrian Cardenas in this deal, Pat Gillick has officially lost it.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 5:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’m excited to see what they gave up. If the As get better return in this deal than they did in the Harden deal, I’ll laugh (and cry).
Maybe Gillick was lying when he said he wanted to leave the Phillies in good shape.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By some accounts
he’s already preparing for his next gig as an adviser in Seattle.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does he care
He’s leaving. He’s going all in.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Jul 17, 2008 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Havnt looked
but i bet a’s nation isnt all that devastated by the loss
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on Jul 17, 2008 6:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I share a blog with an As fan.
She’s freakin’ stoked.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a bad deal for the Phillies
how much is Blanton going to be lit up in Citizen’s Bank Park?
And Cardenas is one of the top 2 2nd basemen in the minors right now.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Some info
About the same age as Kasey Kiker, in a similar situation. Hit .309/.374/.444 in A+ FSL this year. For reference, that’s better numbers than Marcus Lemon in a pitcher-friendly league.
23 moving on 24. Pitched in the Eastern League (AA) this year. 3.20 ERA in 70 innings with 68 hits given up with 66 Ks and 37 BBs.
Looks like the throw in, 22 years old in A+ and putting up a sub-.700 OPS
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lemon
to be fair, Lemon is younger, but very nice 2B in Cardenas. Beane should have dealt Blanton in the offseason he could have gotten more than this. Cardenas is real nice, but I’m not impressed by Outman, and Spencer is, as you say, nobody special.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Jul 17, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People like Lemon
because of his obp.
by tyd3311 on Jul 17, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardenas
isn’t exactly hurting there. He also has more power(though as Tball said, he is older, and more developed physically).
Best case scenario for him is probably Ian Kinsler but lefty and a douche.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
comp
Closer to Mark Ellis than Kinsler, IMO.
by chrisR on Jul 17, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not even close...
...Ellis is far superior on defense…
everything i’m reading on this guy is that his glovework is poor…
by oc on Jul 17, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diary updated
And thanks, Firebat. Couldn’t find anything on Spencer at brief glance.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Beane
Is front loading on 2B’men. Patterson, now Cardenas, is Mark Ellis not going to be re-signed?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jul 17, 2008 6:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All signs point to no
they also drafted a 2B is Jemile Weeks
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i always thought 2b were shortstops who couldnt throw or didnt have enough range.
i certainly wouldnt “load up” on those guys.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on Jul 17, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of ppl
think Cardenas’ future is an OF spot
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
First time on the front page. I feel the desire to make this look less like fail.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Since we are talking about the A's and minor leaguers
The LSB community’s top 5 Pitching prospects are in, and Harrison looks like he will be #6:
1- Feliz, 2- Hurley, 3- Main, 4- Beavan, 5- Kiker, 6- Harrison
The A’s top 6 in no particular order:
Gio Gonzalez, Trevor Cahill, Sean Gallagher, Michael Inoa, Brett Anderson, Henry Rodriguez
So, who ya got?
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 6:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Off the very top of my relatively uninformed head:
As are top heavy, we’re more consistent 2-6. I’d trade places with them, save for Feliz, but I’m comfortable.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see it as the other way around
their guys are all good-great (and I don’t think Gallagher belongs there), but our #1 (Feliz) is better than their #1 (Cahill)
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably should have put James Simmons there
Or even Italiano. Just kind of threw a list together.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Feliz vs Cahill
I think you could make a case for either pitcher. Cahill doesn’t have the Felizian fastball but his secondary pitches are more refined.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've only heard
that he relies heavily on his sinker, I always heard his 2ndary stuff is good, but not great.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I read that
I’ve heard a few scouts this year mention that Cahill’s curve is actually his best pitch and that it is probably grades out as plus. His change is also a nice pitch.
I tend to like more cerebral pitchers like Cahill over gunslingers like Feliz but I’m not sure I’d be in favor of swapping them. Very tough call.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, if they called you with a 6-for-6 deal
do you do it?
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
though I loath to give up Feliz
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's where I would be with it
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I think the guy that tips the scale in their favor is Inoa, since I think Kiker-Main-Beaven-Hurley matches up decently with the rest of the As.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of pisses one off at the shadiness
of the A’s negotiations and the post-signing statements of his agent about the Rangers offer
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never read any statements
hook me up with a link?
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so I found the story from the Star Telegram.
Turns out it wasn’t a direct quote (obviously) from his agent. What was said in the article:
According to MLB rules, teams are not even allowed to discuss money with players before the July 2 deadline. The Rangers were prepared to offer a larger signing bonus — well over $5 million, according to some reports — and word on the street is that afterward Inoa’s agent told a Rangers official that they would have taken the bigger deal if they had known it was coming and hadn’t already committed to the A’s.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
fuck.
We should get compensation for this shit
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and every other team?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Jul 17, 2008 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can talk
once they offer 5 million
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Rangers offered $5 million for him
He may never live up to it, but the hype alone puts him in their top group of pitching prospects.
And did I mention the A’s are shady.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the hype alone puts him in their top group of pitching prospects…
no it doesn’t.
by oc on Jul 17, 2008 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does when virtually every baseball person
that has seen him pitch echoes it. Like I said, he may never live up to it, but you are going to have a hard time finding a scout that doesn’t rate him highly.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All you need is hype
With prospects.
by ericeric on Jul 17, 2008 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
hype is part of the value of prospects. hype has marketable value. inoa is probably worth a couple of guys that you think are closer to the majors
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Jul 17, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just like David Price wasn't a top pitching prospect this winter?
A god rule of thumb is that if baseball scouts are all going nuts about a guy and offering him huge chunks of cash, he’s a legit prospect.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Jul 18, 2008 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HE'S 16!
when he starts owning A-Ball?... fax me.
by oc on Jul 19, 2008 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
...sometime in 2010...
INOA OWNS A-Ball, OC RECEIVES FAX
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Jul 19, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good return?
If JD had traded Padilla to PHIL and gotten those players in return would you be happy?
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 17, 2008 6:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Different situation
We would probably want to get a better pitching prospect in return. If the said pitching prospect is one of similar caliber to Cardenas, then it would be close to robbery.
by Telegraph on Jul 17, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious
where do you guys think Cardenas would rank in Rangers position prospects?
Below or above Andrus?
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well below....
i would think… Andrus is younger and playing in AA and with more upside than Cardenas has especially defensively and speed wise
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fairly distantly below I think.
Possibly not even top 10, if so, in the back end.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
just position prospects
I too think he’s well below the Ramirez-Davis-Andrus, but I’d say he’s above the next level guys (Borbon, Teagarden, Beltre, etc)
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he'd be on about the same level.
I have no issue with putting him above, though.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
that’s about where I’d put him, definitely below Andrus, but ahead of Vallejo in the middle infield mix.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Jul 17, 2008 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might rethink that
several times both ways, but I suspect my bias would be in play if I put Vallejo ahead of Cardenas.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Jul 17, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andrus by a lot
Younger, playing at a higher level, better defense, speed at a premium position
by Telegraph on Jul 17, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummmm
below. His defense has already pushed him off SS, and some say it will eventually push him off 2B. He has a year on Andrus and is a class below him. He has shown more pop, but less speed, worse defense, and less upside
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So would you guys say
he’s top 5 position prospects wise?
Is he better than Beltre? Teagarden?
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I wouldn't trade either guy for him
because of reports that he is a Left Fielder waiting to happen. At 2B or SS, his bat has good value and he rates just below the Davis/Max/Andrus tier….but in LF, I would have him below TT, Beltre, Borbon and hanging out with JMJ, Vallejo, Duran, Boggs, etc. Not to mention Justin Smoak will soon be on that list.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in terms of 2nd basemen...
below duran and vallejo.
by Goyogringo on Jul 17, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think....
you are overrating those two, especially vallejo… Cardenas would have to be above him I would think
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a hitter, maybe...
but he is not in the same class defensively or on the bases.
by Goyogringo on Jul 17, 2008 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
but the bottom line is that if he’s going to be a major league caliber player he will have to hit, and he’s going to be a much better hitter than vallejo. If Cardenas can get his defense together and not move off of 2B, then he should be an above average 2nd baseman overall. Vallejo is likely a utility man IMO
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look up their lines in A+...
Vallejo is better across the board. The comparison is easy as they have played in roughly the same amount of games. Vallejo is 1 year older however. So I guess we’ll see. Cardenas was moved off of 2b because he lacks range and that is a measure which does not improve.
by Goyogringo on Jul 17, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vallejo
is certainly worlds better defensively, but keep in mind the offense-friendly environments he hit in vs. the relatively pitcher-friendly FSL.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My understanding is that....
he has not been moved off of 2B… Obviously if he cant handle the position then he will not ever hit well enough to be in the OF. Potential wise it seems like Cardenas will be the better hitter compared to Vallejo.
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is still a 2nd Baseman
but, his defense is similar to Eric Patterson (the guy they got from the Cubs) and some scouts think he will eventually have to be moved out of the infield.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize that...
like I said in my earlier post, “IF cardenas can get his defense together and not move off of 2B, then he should be an above average 2nd baseman overall.” How likely that is i dont know, but his hitting should be well above average for 2B if he can stay there
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Prospectus Stuff
In the pre-season, Cardinas was ranked by Kevin Goldstein as a three star prospect. That would put him no better than 7th in our system, in the same group as Teagarden, Beaven, Harrison, Ramirez, Duran and several other guys who nearly made the list (Kiker, Murphy, Ramirez, Jones), as our top 11 runs out of room before it gets to the two stars.
Andrus was a four star and placed third in the Rangers organization.
Nate Silver used PECOTA a month ago to project prospects, Andrus ranked as the 11th best shortstop (a couple spots behind Marcus Lemon), with an upside score of 81.2, placing him as a “very good prospect.” Cardenas scored a 47.0, ranking as a “good prospect,” and too far down the list of second basemen for me to count.
Andrus also was ranked by Goldstein as the 58th best prospect in the nation, at any position. Teagarden was the lowest Ranger of seven at 77. Cardenas didn’t make the top 100
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those PECOTA based rankings were questionable
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt...
lemon ahead of andrus (or even Arias)?
by Goyogringo on Jul 17, 2008 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would definitely agree with Lemon's upside being ahead of Arias.
But here’s an explanation of the methodology.
No doubt trying to scientifically project based on such limited samples will raise a lot of interesting results.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to scientifically project minor leaguers
is a fun exercise but ultimately futile.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
it is for some skills like power (especially for younger guys), but skills like OBP, which Pecota prizes, seem to translate pretty well throughout the minors->majors road.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OBP is excellent(I'm a numbers guy)
but my point was that you can just analyze the numbers when trying to project minor leaguers. There are many other variables that need to be in the equation.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
but while that remains true for PECOTA, I think it does tell us something when Goldstein (who is as much scouting as he is numbers) also believes Cardenas is an inferior prospect.
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was only speaking of the PECOTA based rankings
I don’t think much of Cardenas.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree there's a lot to consider.
And I think an objective, scientific backbone is one of those things.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
but I think you missed my point or perhaps I just wasn’t very clear. I was referring specifically to the PECOTA based minor league projections and the use of limited statistical samples to form those projections.
I don’t think you can take any one specific set of variables and use them to make projections especially when a)the samples are limited and b) other factors are ignored.
That was my point. I can see how my statement was very vague.
by jparks77 on Jul 17, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
Ruling out anything that can help you better project the future of players is an even worse idea than sticking to one concept and running with it.
Trying to scientifically identify the future of players is what has built the As.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+.400 on base...
pretty amazing for a high school kid, just a couple years out.
by tyd3311 on Jul 17, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silver
If I remember correctly Silver himself said those SS ranking came out very weird once you moved past the upper tier of SS prospects.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on Jul 17, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
Very Good Prospects
Player (Age) Upside
Marcus Lemon, Rangers (20) 97.0
Alberto Gonzalez, Yankees (25) 92.3
Justin Snyder, Yankees (22) 88.6
Elvis Andrus, Rangers (19) 81.2
Hainley Statia, Angels (22) 80.0
Carlos Triunfel, Mariners (18) 79.0
Trevor Plouffe, Twins (22) 65.1
Todd Frazier, Reds (22) 54.4
Carlos Rivero, Indians (20) 54.4
Jason Donald, Phillies (23) 51.2
Things start to get weird from this point on. I’m not quite sure what PECOTA saw in Marcus Lemon, since there was superficially very little to be impressed with in his .261/.353/.364 batting line last year, but the combination of a strong walk rate and relatively good speed speaks to an interesting mix of skills and tools, a little bit like Jimmy Rollins demonstrated in the low minors. So far, PECOTA appears to be on to something, as Lemon is hitting .290/.405/.430 at Bakersfield thus far this year. Those are California League numbers, and so need to be discounted rather heavily, but if Lemon’s defense comes through—and he’s been rangy enough but error-prone in his career so far—he’s a guy who could be on a lot of radar screens a year from now.
Then we come across perhaps the weirdest rating of the season, belonging to Yankee utility infielder Alberto Gonzalez (no relation to the discredited attorney general). What’s especially strange about this is that PECOTA is not really anticipating any kind of offensive breakout—it has him hitting just .261/.304/.356 this year, with no real development thereafter. But Gonzalez does play strong defense, and PECOTA’s philosophy is that if he lucks into developing a league-average bat, he could be quite a valuable commodity. The problem with this is that there’s a difference between a guy who actually has a league-average bat, and a guy who looks like he has a league-average bat over a limited sample size. The way that PECOTA constructs its Upside rating, it gives credit for those branches on the probability tree where a player turns in a good performance, but does not deduct points when he struggles. In those years where Gonzalez hits .270/.310/.400, that would indeed be fairly valuable to a major league club. But the problem is that you’re going to have to endure too many .220/.250/.280’s in order to come up with those happier results. What PECOTA should ideally be doing when it generates its Upside scores is to distinguish genuine development (of the sort the 25-year-old Gonzalez is unlikely to have) from mere sample variance.
As for the rest of these players, the guy I’d draw your attention to is the Reds’ Todd Frazier, who clobbered the Midwest League to the tune of .321/.402/.598 over 30 games and has already received a promotion to the FSL. Frazier has a little bit of Hunter Pence Syndrome going for him, in that his hitting mechanics are awkward and unorthodox (in fact, Pence is Frazier’s top comparable), but there’s a difference between a guy who doesn’t have a skill and one who just goes about accomplishing things a little differently. Frazier is too bulky to play shortstop, and the Reds have not used him at all at that position since promoting him to Daytona, instead trying him at first, third, and in the outfield. I can’t quite think of a case where this sort of skill set worked in a utility role—typically utility players are diminutive slap hitters. There’s no reason that it couldn’t work, and Frazier might very well have enough bat to stick at a corner.
by philkid3 on Jul 17, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lemon projects as a second baseman
in the minors and a utility guy in the majors if he gets that far: ave arm, ave range, ave speed, contact hitter, high IQ.
by Goyogringo on Jul 18, 2008 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read he's well below ave on arm and range
Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love .
by Brian Thomas on Jul 18, 2008 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally...
I would rank him position prospect wise in our system
1) Andrus
2) Teagarden
3) Beltre
4) Borbon (I’m really high on him)
5) Cardenas
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 7:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Borbon (I’m really high on him)
I’m just getting started myself. Check back with me about 9:00pm…I had a really rough day.
...ZIng!
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
by Rodney on Jul 17, 2008 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Between Borbon and Smoak
I shudder to think how many Lewin moments we’ll witness in the future
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something to look forward to,
no?
Of course, he can’t get away with pot references, can he?
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
by Rodney on Jul 17, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he smoaked that one at the 420 sign.
"Do they know who I am? Do they know my status? Thats what I thought."
-Miles 6/21/08
.501 or bust!
by Jayslick on Jul 17, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god
and I just remembered Elvis Andrus
we have a smoke, a drink and the king. I’ll put the over/under of Dead Elvis jokes per game at 2.5
by FirebatM3 on Jul 17, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait till his power shows up
and he hits one out of RBPIA
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 17, 2008 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
with tears in his eyes
“I’ve waited a long time to say this, TAG…”
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Jul 17, 2008 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is.....
....this really that much different then what I said yesterday, Arias, Cruz, and say Mathis for Blanton? I know I didnt throw in a pitcher but figured you would have to! I know most of you dont like Blanton, but at LEAST he can give the bullpen a rest every 5th day, with mostly quality starts!
by blueballlefty on Jul 17, 2008 8:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
don't think so....
Cardenas has much more value than anyone in that package, and Outman is more valuable than Mathis… Despite Cruz’s numbers, one has to think that he really doesn’t have much value either. He has pretty much proven to be a 4A player. I think Duran, Beau Jones, and a depth guy is more equivalent to the package received.
by erikj07 on Jul 17, 2008 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
the only I threw Cruz in there is there are multiple rumors I’ve read that are Billy Beane has expressed interest in him and they really need a corner OF’er! thought Arias would be a good 2nd baseman which is what they need! I am not real familiar with Outman either so didnt know what he was projected at!
by blueballlefty on Jul 17, 2008 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Arias, Cruz and Mathis, combined, aren’t worth as much as Cardenas.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 17, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea
Not knowing much about Spencer but just for arguments sake I would say something like Vallejo, Harrison, and a A ball outfielder with decent potential which we really don’t have anything comparable to.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on Jul 17, 2008 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
disagree...
The lefty was a reliever…
Harrison is far more valuable than him.
and Vallejo is way under the radar right now, but wont be for long.
by tyd3311 on Jul 17, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Outman
He was a starter with great results in the lower minor leagues but for some reason Philly converted him to a reliever.He started 5 games this year and I could see Oakland converting him back this year or next.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on Jul 17, 2008 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HARRISON?
dont think it would take him
by blueballlefty on Jul 17, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also....
...... think that years of a bad farm around here makes us undervalue our prospects on here!
by blueballlefty on Jul 17, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im really surprised gio gonzalez is getting the call
Seems like he could have used a bit more AAA time with all those walks.
Will be interesting to see how he does.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on Jul 17, 2008 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A much better return...
as far as value for Blanton as opposed to what they got for Harden.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 17, 2008 9:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i dont know...
I think gallagher doesn’t get enough respect here… mid 90’s fastball, very young, major league ready.
by tyd3311 on Jul 17, 2008 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Gallagher...
But Harden >>>>>> Blanton.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 17, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
man i know this is totally irrelevant
but i really have been bored as shit with no rangers games to watch this week. i went to a roughriders game and that didnt even cure my fiending rangers desire.
Damn JD, i wish i could be smoaking some Danks. f bmac.
by Andrew L on Jul 18, 2008 12:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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