Batting Marlon Byrd in the #5 spot
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2008 8:39 PM CDT
107 comments
The recent phenomenon of Marlon Byrd hitting in the #5 spot in the lineup has caused a fair amount of discussion, and I decided to take a closer look at it.
It is worth noting that there have been only three players who have gotten significant time in the #5 spot -- Hank Blalock, Marlon Byrd, and David Murphy. Blalock hit 5th until his injury, and since that time, it has pretty much been either Murphy or Byrd hitting there. Every other Ranger, combined, has a total of 37 ABs in the #5 spot, with only Jason Botts hitting double figures.
And I do think the outcry about Byrd hitting there is indicative of a certain double standard that exists in regards to our pair of 4th outfielder/platoon outfielder/pick your label but probably shouldn't be playing every day COFs. Murphy has logged 61% of the ABs in the #5 spot this season, after all, and there hasn't been much of a hue and cry about him being slotted there.
What's particularly weird about this is that Byrd was a folk hero of sorts in the second half of last season, but Murphy's emergence this year, and Byrd's horrid start, has turned Byrd into a whipping boy of sorts for much of 2008.
But since coming off the d.l. in mid-May, Byrd has posted a .275/.346/.427 line. Murphy, meanwhile, has posted a .272/.316/.464 line. That's about even, in terms of production. But in reading the boards, the attitude seems to be that one of these guys should be lumped in with Evan Longoria for ROY consideration, while the other guy is waiver-wire fodder whom the Rangers should give away to make room for Nelson Cruz (and who the Rangers should have traded for the .109 hitting Matt Murton this spring).
Anyway. The bigger problem here is that, as has been the case for the past several years, the Rangers don't have a real good solution to the problem of who should hit in the #5 slot. Neither Murphy nor Byrd are guys who should be hitting 5th in a lineup as strong as the Rangers' lineup is.
The problem is, there is no real good option for the #5 slot in the lineup, at least the way the Ranger lineup is currently structured. Ron Washington is committed to going Kinsler-Young-Hamilton-Bradley in the first 4 slots, and the question is how to structure things after that.
The problem is, the best options for the #5 slot right now -- Blalock or Davis -- are both lefty hitters. With the lefty hitting Hamilton hitting 3rd, and the switch-hitting Braldey cleanup, you are inviting the opposition to bring in a LHP to face the meat of the order. You'd really prefer to have a righty hitting after Bradley, and before Blalock or Davis.
Unfortunately, there isn't a quality righty option to slot in there. And my guess is that Byrd is being put in the 5th slot at this point to get separation between Hamilton and whichever lefty you want to put in the 6th slot, although that still leaves you with a clumping of lefty hitters together.
Now, against a lefty starter, I think it makes a certain amount of sense to put Byrd in the 5th slot. Neither Blalock nor Murphy -- the two hitters who have been getting most of the non-Byrd 5th spot ABs -- can hit lefties to save their lives, so you don't want either of them there.
I'd just as soon see Chris Davis there...he's had some issues with hitting lefties in the minors, and has looked foolish in certain ABs against them since coming up, but has still posted a great OPS against them (albeit in a limited sample size) so far in the majors, and seems to have fewer issues dealing with lefties than Blalock or Murphy do.
Or you could play both Boggs and Byrd against lefties, sit Murphy, and let one of them hit 5th and the other 7th, with Davis in between them and Blalock hitting 8th and the catcher 9th. In fact, now that I think about it, I think that makes the most sense against left-handed starters.
But against righthanders, I don't see the point of having Byrd hitting that high. Let one of your lefty bats hit in that slot, let Byrd or a catcher hit 6th and the other 8th, and put your other lefty bats in the 7th and 9th spots.
Really, against RHPs, the ideal scenario would be to have one of your lefty bats hit leadoff, with Kinsler second, Hamilton third, Bradley fourth, and Young 5th. The problem is that none of the lefty bats the Rangers have are really a good fit for the leadoff slot. I guess you could put Blalock there, let Davis hit after Young, put Byrd 7th, Murphy 8th, and the catcher 9th. But I don't think Blalock is a real good fit in the leadoff spot, either.
So...there we are. The reality is, there's no real good permanent option, against lefties and righties both, for the #5 spot in the lineup. Having either Byrd or Murphy hit there everyday isn't a good option, but all the other choices are flawed, as well.
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I think the lefty/right thing in the batting order is overblown
Most teams have only 1-2 lefty relievers and the second one is often times the worst pitcher in the pen. Those LH bullpen guys can only be used a couple of times in a series, not often enought to start setting your lineup because the middle of the order might have to face Ron Mahay in the seventh inning or something.
Anyway, I think next year Max settles in as the DH and he and CD will bat 4 and 5 if Bradley doesn’t come back.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on Jul 27, 2008 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Byrd vs. Murphy
Murphy gets the benefit of the doubt over Byrd for 3 reasons:
1. Byrd is 3-4 years older
2. Murphy DID have a nice start to the season which, despite their even pace since Byrd came back, still makes me lean towards Murphy
3. Byrd is just a complete asshole to fans, whereas Murphy is one of the nicest guys on the team.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
x
3. Byrd is just a complete asshole to fans, whereas Murphy is one of the nicest guys on the team.
???
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2008 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i went to all 3 games in Houston
David Murphy signed autographs for anybody and everybody, chatting with the fans the whole time.
Byrd came over 1 time to talk to somebody that he evidently knew (shook his hand and looked to be sharing a story). 2 kids walked over (probably age 7) to ask for an autograph. Byrd completely ignored them and ran off. I’m not talking about, “sorry, i got to go stretch”...I’m talking about completely acting like they weren’t there.
Now, I’ve seen a lot of people do this, but when it’s 2 kids and that’s it? Seriously? You are THAT big of an a-hole?
Plus, I’ve heard the same thing from a lot of guys that get autographs at the Ballpark…Murphy signs damn near every day while Byrd never does.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a lot of players do this
even to kids
Also, who would want Marlon Byrd’s autograph?
Josh Hamilton is better than you.
by Longhorn on Jul 27, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
He’s not as bad as Jim Edmonds.
Plus, I mean, WHO FREAKING CARES?
He wasn’t rude to them. He certainly wasn’t nice, but he wasn’t rude. Sometimes celebrities blow off autograph seekers. It happens.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Jul 27, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i understand that
i didn’t say he made them cry.
Murphy is fan-friendly…Byrd is not from my experiences and others I’ve spoken to.
Everyone always raves about how fan-friendly Hamilton is for example. That’s part of the reason he’s insanely popular, aside from his story and his beasticon levelo of production. There are plenty of fan-friendly players on this team (C.J., Murphy, Kinsler, Millwood, etc.) and there are also guys who are not fan-friendly (Byrd and Padilla come to mind).
As an aside, I thought Bradley would be standoff-ish with fans due to his reputation, but he was extremely nice when I met him in Houston. He actually signed two autographs for me without me even asking (he was using my pen to sign everyone else’s stuff). He asked me as he finished up if I wanted my helmet signed…i gave him my paint pen. As he shook it, the tip fell out onto the dirt. At this point, I was just going to say “don’t worry about it…thanks for the one autograph”, but he actually picked it up with his fingers, laughed that he’d have sparkly fingers and inserted it back into the pen and signed the helmet. Awesome guy!
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you the 7 year old kid?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Jul 27, 2008 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what does Jim Edmonds do?
i’m not familiar with his reputation.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
#3
Funny I’ve always heard the complete opposite and since neither of us are citing sources I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
by rcreative on Jul 27, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is his own source
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest thing that hurts Marlon's case is
his .135 BA with RISP. The “clutch” moniker is thrown around too much by some people, but he just hasn’t hit at all with men on base. I would be curious how he is hitting with RISP during the time frame you are referring to. Also Nelson Cruz has exploded which, justified or not, has people clamoring for him.
I do love the way Byrd plays the game, but he is not a #5 hitter and…even if there isn’t a better option, he still gets the criticism for it, because he is the guy in that spot.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 27, 2008 9:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I need to clarify
I’m not saying Byrd deserves the criticism (and I have given him some), but I am saying because he is the guy hitting 5th, he is the focal point of the criticism, fair or not. It’s tough to follow up 4 All-Stars.
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 27, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I feel compelled to post this picture of young Eric Hurley from today
He is a special pitcher
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 27, 2008 9:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the new avatar
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Jul 27, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Byrd
I also don’t understand why he’s generated so much hate this year. He’s no star, but he’s pretty much exactly what you want from a fourth outfielder. He’s not bad with the bat and can play every outfield position pretty well. Certainly not an everyday player, but he’s been a valuable guy to have around.
"You’re the only here who contributes schtick only." - brettgardner
by trza on Jul 27, 2008 9:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Playing Time
He’s getting hate, because he is an everyday player right now, and he’s not good enough to deserve that.
by Andy Seiler on Jul 27, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh
Really, against RHPs, the ideal scenario would be to have one of your lefty bats hit leadoff, with Kinsler second, Hamilton third, Bradley fourth, and Young 5th.
The Rangers lead the AL in runs score. They struggle vs LHP not RHP.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2008 9:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Blalock vs lefties
Before Blalock went out last year he was hitting pretty well against lefties (and I know it was a small sample size). And before getting platooned after coming up didn’t he have good stats vs. lefties?
by rcreative on Jul 27, 2008 9:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That was the 1st time in a while
I’ve seen Botts mentioned – Anyone have any stats on how he’s doing over in Japan with the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters? I couldn’t find anything, and I can’t read Japanese!
Ya....That's Real Mature.
by SMITTY on Jul 27, 2008 9:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
he's not doing well
i checked awhile back, and he hadn’t played much.
Something close to .200 and 1 HR.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
hitting .136 in 36 ABs with 1 HR
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor, poor Bottsy
Can’t even hit in the Japanese League.
"Would you mind walking a time or two so I could drive in some runs"? Milton Bradley
by boomer1 on Jul 27, 2008 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
where do you get those stats?
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on Jul 27, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hard to explain, but i'll try
google Nippon Ham Fighters
You’ll see a link a few down for the team’s official site (www.fighters.co.jp), but there is a “translate this page” link you click instead.
Then, I clicked on “Dates Results” near the box score in the center of the page just a little ways down.
Then, click on “Hit Record” on the right side of the page
Scroll down for “Bottsu”’s stats.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone said he was hitting 110 a couple days ago
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on Jul 27, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I go here
He had a pinch hit single today to shoot that average up a little.
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on Jul 27, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are the numbers to compare them:
This is Byrd’s numbers while batting fifth this season.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO GDP BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip tOPS+
72 290 269 32 61 9 7 2 30 14 , 1 , 65 , 7, .227 , .268 , .335 , .603 , .289 , 65
These are Murphy’s numbers in that same spot.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO GDP BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip tOPS+
66 281 258 42 73 14 2 11 48 17, 3 45 3 , .283 , .321 , .481, .802, .300, 97
That’s the reason people are upset. Look at the rbi differences and look at the gdp differences. Not to mention the slg and obp numbers. Marlon’s not that good.
Murphy probably shouldn’t be batting fifth either, but if I’ve got to choose between those two because the rookies arn’t “ready” then give me Murphy. At least he drives in the runners on base in front of him.
by Hull Fan on Jul 27, 2008 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Byrd
He hasn’t hit 5th in 72 games this season.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2008 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
those are career numbers. Sorry I’ll have to keep looking for this season’s splits.
by Hull Fan on Jul 27, 2008 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
found them, give me a few mintues
to get them up.
by Hull Fan on Jul 27, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what she said
She being Debbie right before she “did Dallas”
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 27, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a girl that reference
does nothing for me. But thanks for the thought anyway.
by Hull Fan on Jul 27, 2008 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
here
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Byrd Batting 5th 17 67 7 14 2 2 0 3 5 11 1 0 .209 .264 .299 .562
Murphy Batting 5th 63 257 41 72 14 1 11 48 16 45 5 2 .280 .317 .471 .787
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 27, 2008 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
vs pitcher
Byrd vs LHP has a .760 ops
Murphy vs RHP has a .854 ops
btw, those are career numbers
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have zero problems with Byrd batting 5th versus lefties
Well, I’d rather see CD 5th and Murphy/Byrd 6th every night, but maybe it’s best to keep CD lower in the order to help alleviate some of the pressure that comes with being a “middle of the order bat”.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Jul 27, 2008 9:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And to give Kinsler
RBI opportunities, that’s what Ron really wants.
by tyd3311 on Jul 27, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
middle of the order bat
What’s the big deal. He has probably batted 3-5 in the batting order since little league.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
He has settled in to being a Major Leaguer, and doesn’t really seemed phased by anything..
He can handle it.
by tyd3311 on Jul 27, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sign promotion
Starting this weekend the Ranger sar ehaving some sort of fan sign contest. Someone needs to bring a sign that says, “Hey Wash, bat CD 5th!”
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I put it quotation marks
But I don’t know that guys don’t put added pressure on themselves based on where they hit.
Most managers will hit a rookie lower in the lineup at first to “protect” him. Whether that’s a good idea or just antiquated managerial pseudo-psychology… I can’t tell you.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Jul 28, 2008 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Braun
Hit 3rd almost all year, did ok with the pressure.
by bushe on Jul 28, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3rd vs 5th
Pretty different positions in my opinion. If you bat 3rd you most likely are the guy who has someone protecting you in the lineup meaning you get more pitches to hit. Hitting 5th generally means you are the one supplying protection to the guy in front of you. That usually means you come up with more runners on and more pressure. Davis has shown, albeit in small sample sizes, that when he is in a pressure situation he changes his approach
BA w/RISP: .200 ops+ of 62
runners on 1st and 2nd: .100 avg with ops+ of -56
runner on 2nd: .222 avg with ops+ of 89
Theres no question the kid is gonna be a stud in this league for a long time. But right now lets keep him where hes at and let him continue working on his downfalls at the plate in a less pressure situation most of the time.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
9th tonight
I guess those numbers are why CD is batting 9th tonight (7/28)
2B Ian Kinsler
SS Michael Young
CF Josh Hamilton
DH Milton Bradley
3B Hank Blalock
LF Brandon Boggs
RF David Murphy
C Gerald Laird
1B Chris Davis
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 28, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand that
I guess breaking up the lefties is one reason but I would swap he and Laird.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would swap he and Murph
"Here comes the version of Benoit that lets the other team put it out of reach. I hate that version."
-Athos
by SaltyDawg on Jul 28, 2008 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could you trade Byrd for a guy with 37 AAA homeruns?
Probably not… but you could call up Nelson Cruz. He’s a righty that would fit nicely in the 5th spot for this lineup. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that he would put up better numbers than Byrd has in that spot.
And if Cruz performed anywhere near his AAA numbers, he could be a real spark for this team.
I’m smelling a Wildcard.
by Wemedge on Jul 27, 2008 10:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Give Kins a shot @ #5 and find a more speedy obp guy for the leadoff spot!
Brett Gardner maybe? Kenny Lofton anybody? Hows about Boggs?
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Jul 27, 2008 10:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Other than
A WTF moment about taking Kinsler out of the spot he’s been most successful in, that’s interesting. So is Adam’s temporary solution moving Young to 5th (I know, little IsoP but he does manage to plate runners in scoring position career wise) and can very well lead off when an inning ends with the 4 holer.
Boggs lead off? I don’t know, but if it could be planned out with him, setting expectations, letting him work on it etc having a switch hitter lead off seems to work even for nontraditional leadoff types (B. Roberts for instance). In time, maybe Borbon? Maybe finally litmus test Cruz, and either close that lab or discover a bonanza? One additional thing about MY, he can just about hit anywhere in a lineup, having had success at 1-2-6-8-9 in the past. Even some good things as a 3.
Interesting to see if anything changes in the next week.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jul 27, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is this "Boggs" you speak of?
Oh, the guy who got 5 at-bats this week?
Mind you, I don’t hold out much hope than Brandon Boggs is going to turn out to be anything great. But, he’s a 25-year old switch-hitter with less than 200 at-bats in MLB. If he’s going to be on the 25-man roster of a non-contender, let the guy play.
Maybe some contending team will do us all a favor by deciding they need some dorky/queer arm-flapping from their fans to help propel the team into the playoffs. Trade them Marlon before Cleveland trades them Paul!
by Hard8 on Jul 27, 2008 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ed dropping the WTF
I like it….
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Murphy
It disappoints me when Murphy starts against LHP, especially with Hank back. The Rangers are voluntarily putting themselves at a disadvantage.
by Randy Richardson on Jul 27, 2008 10:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
against lefties put laird 5th and against righties put boggs 5th
but who cares about the offense, its fine, we need to worry worry worry about the pitching
OT:i dont feel like lookin through the gameday thread but do you guys think Hurley wasnt healthy and shouldnt have started considering he was throwing 86 mph
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Jul 27, 2008 11:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, there isn’t a quality righty option to slot in there. And my guess is that Byrd is being put in the 5th slot at this point to get separation between Hamilton and whichever lefty you want to put in the 6th slot, although that still leaves you with a clumping of lefty hitters together.But Milty hits after Hammy. So Byrd is separating a switchy from a lefty on most nights. So, have him bat 6th between Blalock and CD.
by shroomer on Jul 27, 2008 11:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Problem...
Byrd hitting in the 5 hole since you need to break up the lefties.
Solution. Trade Byrd and call up Cruz to hit 5th and play RF for the rest of the season.
This guy deserves another shot. Byrd can be the 4th OFer and Boggs can go down and play everyday at OKC or you can deal Byrd for a bullpen type arm. The Rangers aren’t going to lose anything by sitting Byrd after the deadline if they were unable to deal him. I think one way or the other that is what JD will do. Right now I think they are just trying to showcase Byrd to try and deal him.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 27, 2008 11:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me ask this again
Let’s say Cruz hits .275/.325/.450 the rest of the way.
What do you do with him in 2009? Make him the regular RF? If you do that, what do you do with JMJ? Do you let Bradley walk? Do you bring Bradley back as the DH? If you do that, what do you do with Max Ramirez, who is being pencilled in as next year’s DH?
And then, what are the chances he’s an average major league RF’er going forward?
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2008 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think Max can DH
and be the backup at the same time? Cause you know MB is going to want to DH some.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Jul 27, 2008 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All that depends...
on his performance. I personally don’t think Cruz will put up a mediocre line like that. I think he would either come up and do very well or flop like he has before. I’d say it’s a 20% chance he does well and 80% he fails miserably, but he still should get a a shot. Again I ask what are we losing? Playing time for Byrd?
IMO you don’t leave him down there because you are wondering what you do with him next year. What do you do with Byrd next year? JMJ has tailed off a bit and may need to start next year in OKC? I would like to see Board Game back but if not you take the picks. MaxRam needs to hit some at AAA or the major league level before being penciled in as the starting DH next year. I think that is what this year is for. To try and answer some of those questions. And I think Cruz will be the easiest one to get a answer form in the last 2 months of the season.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 27, 2008 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s say Cruz hits .275/.325/.450 the rest of the way.
And then is hitting .231/.282/.385 next May 15th. What do you do then? If he puts up the numbers you suggest, is he worth a 40 man roster spot next winter given his history?
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 27, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all have to see...
what he hits the rest of the way before answering that question. Unless the Rangers actually call him up it’s all speculation as far as how well he does. Deal with that question after the performance at the ML level this year, not before.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 28, 2008 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Name the lefties at 4 and 6 for me
Problem… Byrd hitting in the 5 hole since you need to break up the lefties.
by shroomer on Jul 27, 2008 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Board Game is a switch hitter, but after him the lineup is very lefty heavy. Whether it’s Blalock, Murphy, or Davis the Rangers need a righty in there to break up those guys imo.
Don’t you think the Rangers need another RH bat in the lineup or someone like MaxRam or Salty to step up?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 27, 2008 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure
but Byrd isn’t that guy. Unfortunately Milton’s health means Ramirez can’t DH and Salty’s injuries/struggles means he won’t play till Laird is gone. Finding a RH bat or rearranging the order is something Wash and company are going to have to consider this off season. Till then I’d just rather take my chances with Murphy or Davis/Blalock in the 5 hole than continue to watch Byrd fail miserably.
by Hull Fan on Jul 27, 2008 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Byrd...
should hit in the 5 hole. If the Rangers don’t bring up Cruz, I’m on record as saying I would hit Davis behind Board Game.
Whenever Byrd plays I wouldn’t have him any higher than 8th in the order.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 28, 2008 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me, Meno's whole piece falls apart because he
forgot Bradley hits cleanup. The bits and pieces he explores are okay to pick thru, but the “there is no real good option for the #5 slot in the lineup” mistake destroys the logic path. Of course Blalock and CD are naturals for the 5th spot. The baffling part is why does Byrd hit 5th instead of 6th. Only Ron knows.
by shroomer on Jul 28, 2008 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i imagine
the idea is that you bring in a lefty to face hamilton, bradley and whomever. Bradley will switch either way but with davis/blalock/murphy there you’re more likely to face the lefty (whom the rangers don’t hit well) than a righty.
Not sure I buy into that logic, but I have to imagine that’s what he’s thinking.
by Hull Fan on Jul 28, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you're saying
and I also wonder if Ron wants a “2nd leadoff man” for the back of the order to knock in – so he puts Byrd in front of Blalock and CD hoping to create an echo of the top of the order or something. Like Z said the other day, Ron got our team OBP up to the top of the league – well done, sir – hats off for Wash. But he makes some baffling little decisions all the time in other areas where attention to detail might get you a coupla more wins a season.
by shroomer on Jul 28, 2008 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true enough
his lineups and use/abuse of Jamie Wright baffle me.
Oh and shroom, I’ve never said it but I love your website. It’s very convenient to check out the box scores to see how the kids are doing so thanks for your work on that. It’s appreciated.
by Hull Fan on Jul 28, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Concur...
the bottom of my lineup would look like this the rest of the way…
5) Davis
6) Cruz
7) Blalock
8) Salty (Or OMFT if he’s not traded)
9) Murphy
If you want to keep the pressure of Davis you could flop him and Hank. I personally don’t think that is a issue though.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 28, 2008 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Washington
This is why Washington saidf he wanted a “traditional” leadoff guy. Ideally he would like to bat Kinsler lower in the order, say 5th, and produce more runs. If you could have a leadoff hitter that gave you the same OBP and BA and base threat that Kinsler gives you and you are able to put Kinsler and his BA and power and run producing ability lower in the order you do it in a heartbeat. Hell Kinsler already has over 60 RBI this year in the leadoff position. If you had him hitting 5th all season he would have almost 90 I imagine. Plus he would probably have close to 20 HR. His BA and OBP may be a bit lower but that would be fine if he was driving in runs.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 12:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
why would he have more homers just by switching
spots in the batting order?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Approach at the plate
Right now he is going up there just trying to make contact and get on base. Hes not necessarily looking to drive the ball.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
swing from the heels
I dunno seems to me all he does is try to whack the shit outta the ball
by bushe on Jul 28, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, a new metric?
WSOB. This is the percentage players swing at a pitch very hard.
In this case, I would give Kinsler a WSOB of 110, just a bit over league average. Blalock would get a WSOB of 126, very high, and borderline unproductive.
As a further advanced metric, I would like to introduce WSOB+, which is defined as the percentage a player attempts to Whack the Shit Outta the Ball, and actually corkscrews himself into the ground, or falls down from the effect of said swing.
League Leaders 2008:
Thome, Jim WSOB+ 140
Blalock, Hank WSOB+ 143*
Unfortunately, Blalock does not have enough PAs to qualify for the league lead.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
by Rodney on Jul 28, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm, I guess I completely disagree
I wouldn’t characterize Kinsler as just trying to make contact. Doesn’t he lead the AL in x-base hits?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
But he has said himself that his approach is to just get on base. His natural talent helps him get extra base hits. When you are looking to drive the ball you are generally looking for a certain pitch in a certain area to take advantage of. When you are looking to get on base you go with what the pitcher gives you. Kinsler has done a fantastic job at that so far this season
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess he's just uber-talented then
Because it sure doesn’t look like has to TRY to take advantage of a certain pitch.
I seriously doubt he’d have 20 homers right now if the only difference in his game was batting 5th all year instead of leadoff. I just don’t see it at all.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not 20 right now
Heck even Milton doesn’t have 20 yet. He will probably hit 20 as a leadoff man this year and its not hard to think that if he was in the 5th spot he could push for 30 in a season.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jul 28, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well ok agree to disagree
because it is hard to think his homerun power would increase 50% just by being in a different lineup spot.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 28, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best Lineup
I know Ron Washington recently mentioned that he would like to have a left handed leadoff hitter so he could move Kinsler down in the lineup. At first, I thought that was sounded like a ridiculous idea; Kinsler has been one of the best leadoff hitters in the game and the lineup is already heavy with left handed hitters. But the more I thought about it, I think he is right. Let’s say that Julio Borbon becomes the leadoff hitter at some point next season (or the Rangers acquire another leadoff hitter) and Milton Bradley is retained. That would give up this lineup.
CF Julio Borbon (L)
SS Michael Young (R )
RF Josh Hamilton (L)
DH Milton Bradley (S)
2B Ian Kinsler (R )
1B Chris Davis (L)
3B Hank Blalock (L)
C Gerald Laird (R )
LF David Murphy/Brandon Boggs (L/R)
by stephen86 on Jul 28, 2008 12:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Borbon...
I don’t think he will ever have a high enough OBP to hit leadoff.
That would be a nice lineup, although Hank will be gone by the time Borbon is ready.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 28, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I think you are right...
on both counts. Although, I am not so sure the Rangers will end up dealing Blalock. It seems that Blalock has more value to the Rangers than he will in a trade at the deadline. If Blalock produces well from now until the end of the season, than it might be worth exercising his option and exploring trade options thereafter. Nevertheless, I can’t imagine a team giving up too much this week for Blalock.
It sure is a shame, though. Not only does the combo of Young and Blalock give the Rangers a pretty awful left side defensively, but Blalock was probably my favorite player after his first full year with the Rangers. I thought he was going to be one of the best Rangers ever. it is quite a shame to see how he has fallen. He can still be a valuable player, but he will probably never be the player we once thought he could be.
by stephen86 on Jul 28, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answer
The answer to the dilemma is Nelson Cruz. We’re nuts if we don’t run him out there as the #5 hitter every day for the rest of the season and see what happens. Worst case, he is as bad as Byrd; best case, he’s Chris Davis pt. 2 and we have an outfield of Hamilton, Bradley, Cruz going into next season.
--Brian
by BCanfield on Jul 28, 2008 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
trading Laird
is it a given that whomever trades for Laird will give the Rangers minor league players? Besides pitching what does this team need? The catching is covered as is 1st 2nd SS and 3rd. We got 4 OF’ers that some love and some hate. What’cha think?
¡yo soy Horsedooty!
I soloed in the Mile High Club!
by horsedooty on Jul 28, 2008 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Personally
I’d like a 3B prospect in case Hank’s not there next year or something happens to Mike Young if he moves over there. If he goes out for any extended period of time there’s really only Duran to take that spot. Someone besides Whittleman in the system would make me feel a lot better. I also woudn’t mind another outfield prospect. Harrison may be a rule 5 pickup for someone and I’m not sold on Cruz still being here or JMJ being anything more than marginal so, a AA or AAA outfielder wouldn’t be remiss either.
by Hull Fan on Jul 28, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides pitching...
This team needs more pitching.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jul 28, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitching
after seeing last nights game, I agree the Rangers need more pitching.
¡yo soy Horsedooty!
I soloed in the Mile High Club!
by horsedooty on Jul 29, 2008 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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